25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

For all the work you are both doing, you should be prepared to accept some things are deal breakers and your marriage may never recover from the affair.

 

No question. A few of those things have popped up already. We are in the process of figuring out how much compromising we can do on some. On others we've already worked them out. What I think it will come down to is does each one of us feel that the marriage & what it CAN BE outweigh any single issue. And the only way we can figure that out is through the work we're doing in & out of counseling.

[NickFeek]

There are a lot of ways people choose to use LS, and one of those ways is looking for justification. Threads like that typically become a members only club where only certain theories are explored and others, while outwardly replied to are also just as quickly dispatched.

 

Your thought process was set very early on ,something I myself eluded to on page 2 of this thread. The story has remained the same though, "how could you change your wife" many people tried to pull you into a more balanced look, those thoughts, at least in the text here, were brushed over and dismissed in favor of a view more aligned with what you desired. Creating A stalemate that has strung out 80 pages and exhausted a lot of very good and well respected posters (including Willow who was here from page 1).

 

In the end Nick, the final decision is up to you on what you will take and what you will leave on the table, but as someone who expressed a great deal of joy on finally finding a bit of level ground with his wife, I wonder if you have asked yourself why it was such an uphill battle? A lot of that is laid out here in black and white. Your putting it together Nick, therapy seems to be helping you both, I might suggest going back to page one and looking at some of what has been said through new eyes and possibly through Mrs. Feeks as well.

 

 

TOJAZ

 

I think you may be seeing only parts of the story here. I have encountered several posters who come from an experience & perspective that clearly bleeds through their postings from beginning to end. I wouldn't say you're one of those, and in fact I've found your postings well balanced & helpful. It also seems to me this thread can very easily be shaped by who dominates the postings, and I have no control over that. While I agree with much of what people like 2sunny have said, I have expressed disagreement as well, and that's on both sides. I have never dismissed my role in our marital woes. I do believe back in April I was looking for validation (NOT justification - I've never believed in that or sought it), and for a support system that would allow me to figure things out without crumbling from the guilt & pain & confusion. And for the most part that's what I've gotten here. What I think you're missing is that as this thread has progressed, so have my views, so have my actions, so has my understanding of the way our marriage has been balanced and unbalanced, by both me and Mrs. Feek .

 

My red flag goes up when either side is too vehemently advocated. In other words, anyone who says I was justified I bristle at - and I make sure to disagree. Believing I was justified in any way is both wrong and MORE IMPORTANTLY unhelpful to our rebuilding process. At the same time, anyone who says I have come here LOOKING for justification and for a way to place ALL the blame on my wife I also bristle at. That view is ALSO both wrong and unhelpful. Did & does my wife deserve better? YES - and I have been at the forefront of believing & expressing that. But did & do my wife AND I need to BOTH work on major deficiencies & issues - do BOTH of us need to change? Yes absolutely yes a thousand times. And anyone who claims she does not have a large responsibility and lots of work to do is biased, plain and simple. I will never stop working on myself and on what I have to do to make this marriage better. But I will also never absolve my wife of her role in this just because I seriously f***ed up. Two wrongs DON'T make a right. The other side of that is that one wrong does not NEGATE another wrong.

 

I am seeing as our marital work progresses that we will both have to shift in ways that may be alien to us. I'm also seeing that A. We're both not very good at that; but B. We both are doing it anyway - already. And while I can't claim any ultimate success, I can say that these small glimpses of success and the good days we've had show me it's highly possible we both have what it takes to make this marriage work.

 

Ultimately, I'm sorry for you and others who have become so disillusioned by this thread. You should go back and read how many people have predicted our marriage would & will fail. The reason it has not is because BOTH MY WIFE AND I have been - in fits and starts - doing what's needed to get to the next phase. You should then go back & read all the places where I've shown a clear change of mind/heart on issues I thought I had figured out. Willothewisp & others have made sweeping statements that just don't hold up. And I'm sorry that upsets me so, but in the midst of all this household turmoil I'd really rather not have to argue a point that is so clearly generalized as to be insulting.

 

To answer your last question - how could something so flawed and filled with so many mistakes NOT be an uphill battle? If you're claiming it's because I've resisted change and/or seeing my part in this - sure at times I have. But OVERALL I am 1000% positive that has not been the case - i.e. the generalization people SHOULD take from this posting is that I have been and always will be willing to incorporate ANYTHING that will work in our marriage's favor, my protestations to the contrary.

[2sunny]

it's discouraging to read that "others" (who is others?) are reading and only or mainly discussing a situation here on pm. i have never contacted Nick by pm - any suggestions were put out here for the world to review and take ideas that may invoke change.

 

those "others" could have been making suggestions, no? but they have kept quiet...

 

i am a BS - but i do not generally come to any thread with that in mind... i offer suggestions based upon the situation and the interest of what MAY invoke change for the poster here... mainly because IF someone is posting - they generally don't LOVE what is happening in their life - so change can be good to bring about that change.

 

all through this thread... i have to say - Nick's love for his wife and his willingness to find a way to make the M work - is prevalent.

 

 

for anyone to jump in and criticize him now isn't nice... especially while waiting and watching behind a veil of silence while he needed help.

 

this forum encourages HELPING... ideas should and could be useful.

 

i'm glad to hear you two have a new found hope Nick - that is great to hear!

[soserious1]

well - at least your kids would understand that SHE makes THAT choice when it happens. they should take their concerns or words to her directly, not you. it is on HER - then - to be accountable to them for her choice to not come home. they can draw their own conclusion from her action or inaction. it is not your job to defend her - they should speak to HER directly IF and WHEN they may question HER choice to work instead of coming home at a reasonable time.

 

if she works through the night - i would be telling her - NO SHOWING UP THE NEXT MORNING - the target time to see her again would be the end of "her" business day.

 

her work really is her OM - IF you view it from that perspective - it makes sense that she's makes her work her life - and essentially leaves you all out.

 

HER choice = HER consequence... and see what she does with the backlash of her actions or inactions. that really is ALL hers. so IF and when it happens - just stay out of it and remind everyone what the boundary is/time element that determines HER choice to be home and participate in the family - or not.

 

With all due respect here, Nick cannot forbid his wife from entering a home she also holds the title to, ordering her to go stay at a hotel,forbidding her to connect with her children, painting her as a filthy whore because she overworks?

 

Sunny you give some good advice but this one is over the top IMHO, sorry

[NickFeek]

it's discouraging to read that "others" (who is others?) are reading and only or mainly discussing a situation here on pm. i have never contacted Nick by pm - any suggestions were put out here for the world to review and take ideas that may invoke change.

 

those "others" could have been making suggestions, no? but they have kept quiet...

 

i am a BS - but i do not generally come to any thread with that in mind... i offer suggestions based upon the situation and the interest of what MAY invoke change for the poster here... mainly because IF someone is posting - they generally don't LOVE what is happening in their life - so change can be good to bring about that change.

 

all through this thread... i have to say - Nick's love for his wife and his willingness to find a way to make the M work - is prevalent.

 

 

for anyone to jump in and criticize him now isn't nice... especially while waiting and watching behind a veil of silence while he needed help.

 

this forum encourages HELPING... ideas should and could be useful.

 

i'm glad to hear you two have a new found hope Nick - that is great to hear!

 

I appreciate that a lot, 2sunny. You've always been supportive, even when you and I disagree, and you've been patient as I've moved forward & backward & succeeded & faltered. Your consistency has been an impetus and a comfort.

[willowthewisp]

I have read some of your posts, and I must say, your a patient guy. I also agree with 2Sunny, that in a sense , her workaholism is like an affair.

Just a question, does your wife acknowledge her part in what led you to going outside your marriage to get your needs met?

As I see it, the affair was a symptom of the marriage problems, not the cause.

Which unless you have a sexual addiction problem( which you obviously don't) is usually the case.

I don't want to jump on the bandwagon of people who always think someone is cheating, but are you sure she's not seeing someone? Staying overnight in the office sounds rather strange... Unless she just doesn't want to face the issues at home.

 

I really hope you and your wife resolve these issues, but remember, it takes 2 people to work in something, not just you.

Good luck:)

 

Thanks for weighing in.

 

I'd say this past week was maybe the first time her acknowledgment of HER part in this went deeper than just an intellectual understanding. She may be starting to see what actions, reactions, or lack of both, helped to lead us to this place.

 

I really do think the "affair" part of the work is all just about the work. You'd have to know her to understand how unlikely it is she'd ever have an affair with anyone. But in some ways that just makes all this harder, because it's much easier for her to justify that kind of "affair".

 

Thank you, I'm more hopeful now than usual. That may change by next week , but it's good to have it at least for a while, and to use it to hopefully motivate change.

 

You must have stopped reading or chose to read only certain passages, because I think you'll get a good deal of disagreement from others who've posted on saying that I ignore things I disagree with. I've answered almost every single post, and I do so thoughtfully. If I disagree, that's my prerogative, and I always do my best to both explain why AND take into account the other person's perspective.

 

What's bizarre is that this sounds like something that could have been posted three months ago. All of what you wrote has been covered, by me and others (AND my wife & me), and quite thoroughly. Anyone who believes cheating is anyone else's fault but the cheater's is wrong. AND anyone who believes cheating is not a symptom of larger problems is also wrong. If you are the kind of person who chooses to see the world as black and white, then I'm awfully glad you and the "others" you claim to represent have stopped posting. I have admitted my full responsibility & major error countless times, but that will NEVER exclude me incorporating my wife's side of the culpability. What's more, the "hunny" you write to agrees with me. She knows she was seriously wronged, and did not deserve what I did, but she is also mature enough to acknowledge that she has issues she brought to the table. THAT and that alone is why we are closer than ever to being on the same page. And THAT ALONE is why we are working together to recover. Anything short of that and we'd have no future together.

 

The bolded part above totally contradicts what you have said to me in the above quote. You clearly state that your wife is to blame for your affair, at least that is how it read to me, so no, not posts from 3 months ago and yes I have read your thread. The whole thing is a conversation between you and one other poster.

 

I do not see the world in black and white, in my job if I was that sort of person I would not be able to do a very good job at all.

 

You may respond to each poster but you do not take on board anyones perspective or attempt to assist you unless it already agrees with your perspective, like Tojaz said, many come here for justification and validation.

 

You say you are glad we have stopped posting, so be it, I have no intention of continuing to try and support someone who does not appreciate a stranger taking time out of their busy day to try to help. See the negative all you want, think of me what you will, but ask yourself what on earth I had to gain by posting what I have to you, even risking being blasted by you for it.

[willowthewisp]

it's discouraging to read that "others" (who is others?) are reading and only or mainly discussing a situation here on pm. i have never contacted Nick by pm - any suggestions were put out here for the world to review and take ideas that may invoke change.

 

those "others" could have been making suggestions, no? but they have kept quiet...

 

i am a BS - but i do not generally come to any thread with that in mind... i offer suggestions based upon the situation and the interest of what MAY invoke change for the poster here... mainly because IF someone is posting - they generally don't LOVE what is happening in their life - so change can be good to bring about that change.

 

all through this thread... i have to say - Nick's love for his wife and his willingness to find a way to make the M work - is prevalent.

 

 

for anyone to jump in and criticize him now isn't nice... especially while waiting and watching behind a veil of silence while he needed help.

 

this forum encourages HELPING... ideas should and could be useful.

 

i'm glad to hear you two have a new found hope Nick - that is great to hear!

 

You're kidding right? Why would someone continue to post when they are disregarded over and over again. This whole thread has been one long conversation between you and the OP that left me wondering why you two just didn't PM each other instead.

 

Nick, you now accuse me of me of trying to start a fight with you at a difficult time for you, which you feel you have to argue and once again, ALL because I have dared to offer up a perspective that you disagree with and which you do not like. I'm not a mean spirited person who gets enjoyment out of hurting others when they are already down, to suggest I am is frankly, offensive.

 

Nor are my posts coloured by my own experience, all along I have tried to remain helpful because I can see that you and your wife want to work things out. If I allowed personal opinion in, my posts would be very different.

 

I am not arguing that your wife and you did not have marital problems before the affair, I am simply stating what I see in your posts, over and over again and that is that you still place the blame for your affair on your wife. THAT is not right.

Edited August 8, 2011 by willowthewisp

[NickFeek]

The bolded part above totally contradicts what you have said to me in the above quote. You clearly state that your wife is to blame for your affair, at least that is how it read to me, so no, not posts from 3 months ago and yes I have read your thread. The whole thing is a conversation between you and one other poster.

 

I do not see the world in black and white, in my job if I was that sort of person I would not be able to do a very good job at all.

 

You may respond to each poster but you do not take on board anyones perspective or attempt to assist you unless it already agrees with your perspective, like Tojaz said, many come here for justification and validation.

 

You say you are glad we have stopped posting, so be it, I have no intention of continuing to try and support someone who does not appreciate a stranger taking time out of their busy day to try to help. See the negative all you want, think of me what you will, but ask yourself what on earth I had to gain by posting what I have to you, even risking being blasted by you for it.

 

Well all I can say is I'm positive others would read these posts and get something entirely different from what you're getting, and that I disagree. And the proof here is in the pudding, so to speak. Our marriage has improved. Both my wife and I are encouraged by our progress as a couple and as individuals. So whatever else you believe, I'm living the reality that is the refutation of your argument, and that can't be disputed.

 

As for you not posting, I am VERY open to differing points of view, and always will be. What I'm NOT open to is people making blanket assumptions & judgments as you have. I believe you are seeing what you want to see, and/or I disagreed with you on some occasions - which is what you're basing your argument on. If I'm wrong about that, I'm sorry. But I can't think of one other reason why you'd be so incredibly negative about the trajectory of this thread.

[NickFeek]

You're kidding right? Why would someone continue to post when they are disregarded over and over again. This whole thread has been one long conversation between you and the OP that left me wondering why you two just didn't PM each other instead.

 

Nick, you now accuse me of me of trying to start a fight with you at a difficult time for you, which you feel you have to argue and once again, ALL because I have dared to offer up a perspective that you disagree with and which you do not like. I'm not a mean spirited person who gets enjoyment out of hurting others when they are already down, to suggest I am is frankly, offensive.

 

Nor are my posts coloured by my own experience, all along I have tried to remain helpful because I can see that you and your wife want to work things out. If I allowed personal opinion in, my posts would be very different.

 

I am not arguing that your wife and you did not have marital problems before the affair, I am simply stating what I see in your posts, over and over again and that is that you still place the blame for your affair on your wife. THAT is not right.

 

You are not offering a perspective. You are offering a judgment of me and this thread, and that's what is not acceptable to me.

 

I'm sorry but for you to continue to write the idea in your last paragraph is just proof of your bias. It seems to me that the fact that I've mentioned my wife's issues is enough to convince you that I've place the blame for MY actions on HER. And I have been clear throughout that I made the mistake, that while there were certainly issues from both sides that led to me making that choice, the choice was still mine.

 

As for you saying this thread is just a conversation between me and the OP, that's just silly. There have been so many people who have posted over these months. Yes, lately (and at other times) it's been dominated by one poster or another. But that's not something I can control.

 

The bottom line is, if someone posts ANY opinion of my actual situation, I treat it with respect. What YOU are doing here NOW (not in the past - I do acknowledge all of your helpful & insightful posts) is passing judgment on me within the context of this thread, and that is not fair, accurate or helpful.

[willowthewisp]

You are not offering a perspective. You are offering a judgment of me and this thread, and that's what is not acceptable to me.

 

I'm sorry but for you to continue to write the idea in your last paragraph is just proof of your bias. It seems to me that the fact that I've mentioned my wife's issues is enough to convince you that I've place the blame for MY actions on HER. And I have been clear throughout that I made the mistake, that while there were certainly issues from both sides that led to me making that choice, the choice was still mine.

 

As for you saying this thread is just a conversation between me and the OP, that's just silly. There have been so many people who have posted over these months. Yes, lately (and at other times) it's been dominated by one poster or another. But that's not something I can control.

 

The bottom line is, if someone posts ANY opinion of my actual situation, I treat it with respect. What YOU are doing here NOW (not in the past - I do acknowledge all of your helpful & insightful posts) is passing judgment on me within the context of this thread, and that is not fair, accurate or helpful.

 

In response to

 

Kitsune77 "does your wife acknowledge her part in what led you to going outside your marriage to get your needs met?"

 

You wrote

 

"I'd say this week....her acknowledgment...she may be starting to see what actions...led us both to this place"

 

I bolded it above but you are either choosing to ignore it, even though you wrote it or I have misunderstood it. In response to someone suggesting that your wifes behaviour CAUSED you to go outside your marriage, caused bc she was not meeting your needs, from this perspective, you wrote in essence...I agree she is now acknowledging HER ACTIONS/INACTION that made me go outside my marriage to get my needs met that she was not meeting.

 

That is how I read your response, hence me saying that you are blaming your wife for your actions, your affair.

 

If I have misunderstood, I apologize.

[NickFeek]

In response to

 

Kitsune77 "does your wife acknowledge her part in what led you to going outside your marriage to get your needs met?"

 

You wrote

 

"I'd say this week....her acknowledgment...she may be starting to see what actions...led us both to this place"

 

I bolded it above but you are either choosing to ignore it, even though you wrote it or I have misunderstood it. In response to someone suggesting that your wifes behaviour CAUSED you to go outside your marriage, caused bc she was not meeting your needs, from this perspective, you wrote in essence...I agree she is now acknowledging HER ACTIONS/INACTION that made me go outside my marriage to get my needs met that she was not meeting.

 

That is how I read your response, hence me saying that you are blaming your wife for your actions, your affair.

 

If I have misunderstood, I apologize.

 

I'm sorry, and I completely understand why you might have misread that in and of itself. But I'll say two things: A. My intent there was in the last line of your quote, "...led us both to this place." By "place" I mean the current state of our marriage, not specifically my recent actions. I do believe we both contributed to the discontent that brought us here, but. B. that statement & others like it have (I hope) been in the context of me separating the state our marriage has come to from my choice to handle it as poorly as I did. If I have not been clear about that distinction, I should be the one apologizing.

[2sunny]

the intent i come here with is to suggest ideas that bring about change... for with every action comes a reaction. my experience and perspective is usually not useful to others - i try my best to look at things from the posters position (working from their written words) and make suggestions that may be helpful.

 

with that being said, staying neutral is best and most useful.

 

 

i could see some value in your wife reading here - although it may pain her to read some of what is written - and i also could see value in your counselor reading what info is laid out here as well.

 

if nothing else - it gives a descriptive look into your perspective and how you've processed the past few months of your marriage.

 

how did your wife come to find you here on this forum? it is not an accident, you know?

[NickFeek]

the intent i come here with is to suggest ideas that bring about change... for with every action comes a reaction. my experience and perspective is usually not useful to others - i try my best to look at things from the posters position (working from their written words) and make suggestions that may be helpful.

 

with that being said, staying neutral is best and most useful.

 

 

i could see some value in your wife reading here - although it may pain her to read some of what is written - and i also could see value in your counselor reading what info is laid out here as well.

 

if nothing else - it gives a descriptive look into your perspective and how you've processed the past few months of your marriage.

 

how did your wife come to find you here on this forum? it is not an accident, you know?

 

Well as I mentioned she already knew I was on this forum. She was never thrilled about it, and so avoided looking into it. Two Saturdays ago I was at work and she was home with our little one. There's a website he likes that she was looking for, and in the process she saw in our browser history this forum's address. She got very upset, and as she tends to do with private things (emails, my journal when I used to keep one, etc.), she felt a burning need to check it out.

 

Not having my login info, she was unable to access my postings. So she did a general search, and it popped up immediately, according to her. This made her VERY upset. She questions the site's anonymity, and is concerned that anyone who wants to could put two & two together & find out way too much about her personal life. She's asked me to stop posting personal info here, but before that she printed out a good ten pages of the early postings, to illustrate her point about me sharing TMI.

 

I do still think it would be valuable for her to see some of this, but overall it might be more painful than enlightening. I'm also still conflicted about her ultimatum for me to stop. I can completely understand why she'd be upset about the TMI aspect, but I don't agree that just anyone could figure out who we are from these postings. So I'm holding back on any further personal info until I/we can figure this out.

[2sunny]

There are strict privacy settings for this site. Googling my email won't bring up my history here. This is considered one of the more secure sites you can use. Anonymity is adhered to. I would think, unless you two give your site here as a reference to anyone - they won't find you by doing a search. Her argument doesn't hold any merit. I hope it's not an attempt to block getting the help that's needed... I view it in the same light as her saying she wouldn't go to counseling. What is she going to try to roadblock/control next? To ask you to quit asking for ideas to improve the M is absurd, at best!

[soserious1]

There are strict privacy settings for this site. Googling my email won't bring up my history here. This is considered one of the more secure sites you can use. Anonymity is adhered to. I would think, unless you two give your site here as a reference to anyone - they won't find you by doing a search. Her argument doesn't hold any merit. I hope it's not an attempt to block getting the help that's needed... I view it in the same light as her saying she wouldn't go to counseling. What is she going to try to roadblock/control next? To ask you to quit asking for ideas to improve the M is absurd, at best!

 

To be honest, if I was Nick's wife & came here to read all the horrible assumptions you've made about me, I'd pack Nick's suitcase and send him on along to you complete with the vibrator you'd been urging him to demand that I use, then you could also give him the anal sex you so helpfully suggested as a fix to our marital problems.

 

Seriously 2sunny, seeing your marital problems spelled out in detail,including your sexual issues on a public forum can be quite upsetting I don't care how 'private" the forum may be, Also,since this is clearly Nick's chosen place for support & his wife has been demonized by many,why would she even want to post in this thread?

Edited August 10, 2011 by soserious1

[2sunny]

To be honest, if I was Nick's wife & came here to read all the horrible assumptions you've made about me, I'd pack Nick's suitcase and send him on along to you complete with the vibrator you'd been urging him to demand that I use, then you could also give him the anal sex you so helpfully suggested as a fix to our marital problems.

 

Seriously 2sunny, seeing your marital problems spelled out in detail,including your sexual issues on a public forum can be quite upsetting I don't care how 'private" the forum may be, Also,since this is clearly Nick's chosen place for support & his wife has been demonized by many,why would she even want to post in this thread?

 

i guess i see them as suggestions for change - it wasn't intended as any criticism... exploring new ideas - any ideas...

[NickFeek]

There are strict privacy settings for this site. Googling my email won't bring up my history here. This is considered one of the more secure sites you can use. Anonymity is adhered to. I would think, unless you two give your site here as a reference to anyone - they won't find you by doing a search. Her argument doesn't hold any merit. I hope it's not an attempt to block getting the help that's needed... I view it in the same light as her saying she wouldn't go to counseling. What is she going to try to roadblock/control next? To ask you to quit asking for ideas to improve the M is absurd, at best!

 

That's good to know, and it's what I assumed. Part of what I do is IT related, so I felt pretty secure that I could trust this site.

 

I've been trying to pinpoint her objection too. I'm fairly certain she wants me to get all the help I can. I really think it comes down to fear of exposure. When I used to keep a diary, she threatened to burn them several times, afraid that someone would find them & know "everything". Well here they sit 15-20 years later & no one gives a hoot about them. She's always been overly concerned about people "finding out" things & getting a certain impression of her.

 

I do understand why she wouldn't want me to share intimate details, and that's exactly why I came to this forum. I'm still willing to pull back on sharing the MOST intimate stuff. I'd just really prefer to keep these lines of discussion open for other things.

[NickFeek]

i guess i see them as suggestions for change - it wasn't intended as any criticism... exploring new ideas - any ideas...

 

soserious, I take all of these suggestions as just that: suggestions. Some may be within the realm of possibility in MY context, others wouldn't. But I don't pass judgment on what's being said or why, except in cases where a poster is clearly attacking or judging me or another poster. I have often disagreed with 2sunny, but I've never been offended.

 

Having said that, I do agree that my wife would not like a good deal of what she reads here. BUT what she'd object too far more than anything else is what I POST, not what others post.

[2sunny]

for what it's worth = it's difficult to get any help - if you are unwilling to state what the problem may be.

 

this may be the crux of the roadblock - when she gets willing to put her truth out there - she may be capable of considering suggestions... in the meantime keeping things to herself only gives herself HER best idea at a solution.

 

she needs to be honest with you and the counselor about what she's thinking... so she can consider what possible solutions she can do... or not...

[NickFeek]

for what it's worth = it's difficult to get any help - if you are unwilling to state what the problem may be.

 

this may be the crux of the roadblock - when she gets willing to put her truth out there - she may be capable of considering suggestions... in the meantime keeping things to herself only gives herself HER best idea at a solution.

 

she needs to be honest with you and the counselor about what she's thinking... so she can consider what possible solutions she can do... or not...

 

I couldn't agree more. Fortunately I'm seeing that she IS opening up more in and out of sessions. I do think it'll be a long & painful process, but I'm sensing & hearing that she understands it needs to be done for us to have a real future.

[2sunny]

I couldn't agree more. Fortunately I'm seeing that she IS opening up more in and out of sessions. I do think it'll be a long & painful process, but I'm sensing & hearing that she understands it needs to be done for us to have a real future.

 

ya! otherwise she is operating on her own and - in a sense - there's no "relationship" - to have a M and operate without "sharing of yourself with the other person in that relationship" - isn't my idea of a M.

 

if she INTENDS to be married - she should start sharing of herself with you, her partner. otherwise - you (and she) could and should be on your own...

 

when she starts participating - without reservation - as if she intends to share of herself with you - is when things will take a turn for the better.

 

 

to have a man love a woman to that extent is a true gift - what she's holding back for - is beyond me! wish she could open her heart and her soul and embrace the beauty of what opportunity she has to love and be loved! anything less is road blocking the possibilities laid at her feet!

[NickFeek]

ya! otherwise she is operating on her own and - in a sense - there's no "relationship" - to have a M and operate without "sharing of yourself with the other person in that relationship" - isn't my idea of a M.

 

if she INTENDS to be married - she should start sharing of herself with you, her partner. otherwise - you (and she) could and should be on your own...

 

when she starts participating - without reservation - as if she intends to share of herself with you - is when things will take a turn for the better.

 

 

to have a man love a woman to that extent is a true gift - what she's holding back for - is beyond me! wish she could open her heart and her soul and embrace the beauty of what opportunity she has to love and be loved! anything less is road blocking the possibilities laid at her feet!

 

Really well said, and very much how I feel. We'll just have to see how things progress.

[trippi1432]

Intimate details are always a worry, but people do share sometimes to gain a perspective and that should be interpreted for personal growth towards making a relationship better...it shouldn't be a lecture for how to force a person to your will or even how to force a woman to open up sexually. Sorry, but even as a reader with a healthy outlook on sex, I was mortified for your wife on some suggestions that were made. I mean do you want a wife or a submissive? I'm sure there are websites out there where you can find one of those women.

 

The gist of a lot of this, we all get cheated in our marriages in one way or another. Whether it's the person working too much and not physically present all the time, lack of sex....and that can be both male and female because there are men out there with low sex drives too, too much time on the golf course, too much time spent with friends, too much emotional energy spent on football season and no emotional energy being spent on the family other than

screaming at them....all those things could be used to say I am not getting what I need from this, let me go find it somewhere else.

 

Hate to say it, but perhaps that is the easiest thing to do in some peoples minds rather than stand up, draw a line in the sand to say I don't like how things are going...it needs to change. So yes, I do agree with perspectives here that thing needed to change. The underlying culpability is that neither Nick or Mrs. Nick did that...that takes two people. The result, as it does only take one to break it, is that Nick stepped outside of the marriage. It is NOT just Mrs. Nicks fault that this happened because she wouldn't address the issues...Nick didn't fully address them either. There was another choice that Nick could have made but didn't.....he could have just left if he couldn't have gotten resolution on what he wanted. Mrs Nick had a choice too, she could have thrown him out once Nick crossed the boundary of the marriage. The

fact that she hasn't yet says more to her character than Nicks at the moment. Sorry Nick, but that is true.

 

The biggest elephant in the room is the affair...your choice in how to deal with the other problems in the marriage. Now, I am not attacking you...simply stating the obvious as you did have a choice to pack your bags and leave, so at what point was your marriage, wife and children more important to you not to do that? Obviously they are or you wouldn't be trying to work on it now.

 

So, in all honesty Nick, as it has been stated that the affair was a result of the underlying symptoms of the issue...how much of it now in your mind is

something you regret and wish didn't happen and how much of it is utilization to confirm that she must change?

[NickFeek]

Intimate details are always a worry, but people do share sometimes to gain a perspective and that should be interpreted for personal growth towards making a relationship better...it shouldn't be a lecture for how to force a person to your will or even how to force a woman to open up sexually. Sorry, but even as a reader with a healthy outlook on sex, I was mortified for your wife on some suggestions that were made. I mean do you want a wife or a submissive? I'm sure there are websites out there where you can find one of those women.

 

The gist of a lot of this, we all get cheated in our marriages in one way or another. Whether it's the person working too much and not physically present all the time, lack of sex....and that can be both male and female because there are men out there with low sex drives too, too much time on the golf course, too much time spent with friends, too much emotional energy spent on football season and no emotional energy being spent on the family other than

screaming at them....all those things could be used to say I am not getting what I need from this, let me go find it somewhere else.

 

Hate to say it, but perhaps that is the easiest thing to do in some peoples minds rather than stand up, draw a line in the sand to say I don't like how things are going...it needs to change. So yes, I do agree with perspectives here that thing needed to change. The underlying culpability is that neither Nick or Mrs. Nick did that...that takes two people. The result, as it does only take one to break it, is that Nick stepped outside of the marriage. It is NOT just Mrs. Nicks fault that this happened because she wouldn't address the issues...Nick didn't fully address them either. There was another choice that Nick could have made but didn't.....he could have just left if he couldn't have gotten resolution on what he wanted. Mrs Nick had a choice too, she could have thrown him out once Nick crossed the boundary of the marriage. The

fact that she hasn't yet says more to her character than Nicks at the moment. Sorry Nick, but that is true.

 

The biggest elephant in the room is the affair...your choice in how to deal with the other problems in the marriage. Now, I am not attacking you...simply stating the obvious as you did have a choice to pack your bags and leave, so at what point was your marriage, wife and children more important to you not to do that? Obviously they are or you wouldn't be trying to work on it now.

 

So, in all honesty Nick, as it has been stated that the affair was a result of the underlying symptoms of the issue...how much of it now in your mind is

something you regret and wish didn't happen and how much of it is utilization to confirm that she must change?

 

That's a great summation of everything that's come before, and I don't disagree with any of it.

 

To answer your last question, what I'm finding is the more she & I are able to bond & reconnect, and to feel some sense of hope & positivity for the future, the more I regret what I did. All of the haze of the affair has worn off, and I'm seeing that I entered into a period of months (close to a year if you count the pre-affair connecting) when I was deliberately creating another world for myself, deliberately drifting & shutting my wife out. I had given up on our marriage. If I had it to do again, I would not make that mistake.

 

But if I'm being completely honest, a shocker like what I perpetrated is probably what I needed to kick myself out of the quiet desperation & resignation I'd been living in for most of my adult life. I know there are healthier ways to do that, but it's kind of like hitting rock bottom & then bouncing up. I am almost 100% positive I would never have pursued the kinds of changes & improvements desperately needed in our marriage if things had just gone on as normal. I am IN NO WAY justifying what I did, just using some hindsight to describe the effects. And this includes both changes I needed to make AND changes she needs to make - really as a whole all the things we've been living with and/or doing without that have damaged & eroded our marriage.

 

So short answer is yes I regret what I did & still wish I could undo it. But I am grateful for both the effects it's had AND for my wife's dedication despite it.

[2sunny]

i know i am the person today because of the experiences i have had - but i don't focus on that ----> i only look forward - and that helps me to understand what i only need to do today.

 

to look back has only been useful for me - in understanding what i NO LONGER want to do... from understanding what hasn't worked for me. then i never DO those things again - because i have evidence that they weren't working =for me.

 

 

maybe you two could find out what HASN'T worked for you/the M - and be sure NEVER to DO those things again? then consider trying anything new that you both agree to - that may work...

 

since i know what i'm not going to do - it helps me to siphon those things out - and give consideration to new ways to be happy.

 

i was taught a few years back - not to ask WHY... mainly because it keeps me in my past (and my past didn't work for me). i was taught to ask myself HOW i can never make it look like THAT again! when i ask myself that - i get busy making sure i don't go back to old behaviors and patterns that got me that life i hated living.

 

so, the question may be - ask HOW instead of why...