Author NickFeek Posted August 4, 2011 Author Posted August 4, 2011 this is good! this IS what YOU can control! this is leaving yourself at the mercy of what SHE does or doesn't do... see how things get convoluted and contradicted? please clarify which it is... cuz you can't really do BOTH at the same time effectively... just pointing out the obvious. Well since I can't physically force her to leave the office, the best I can do is insist. Do you have any suggestions regarding what to do if she does not stick to the plan?
2sunny Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 Well since I can't physically force her to leave the office, the best I can do is insist. Do you have any suggestions regarding what to do if she does not stick to the plan? it seems extreme - but i think i'd tell her if she's not home by (insert REASONABLE TIME - say 630pm) then she should plan to pay for a hotel for the evening. then - if and when 630 arrives and she's not home - you can go about your evening knowing SHE made THAT choice and has the consequences from her choice. tell her you both will explain to the kids this boundary - IF Mom isn't home by 630pm - then she has CHOSEN to work late and we won't see her for the rest of the evening. HER CHOICE = HER CONSEQUENCE!
Author NickFeek Posted August 4, 2011 Author Posted August 4, 2011 it seems extreme - but i think i'd tell her if she's not home by (insert REASONABLE TIME - say 630pm) then she should plan to pay for a hotel for the evening. then - if and when 630 arrives and she's not home - you can go about your evening knowing SHE made THAT choice and has the consequences from her choice. tell her you both will explain to the kids this boundary - IF Mom isn't home by 630pm - then she has CHOSEN to work late and we won't see her for the rest of the evening. HER CHOICE = HER CONSEQUENCE! I've done something like that before, believe it or not, and her normal response is to just work clear through the morning & return to help get the kids to school. I have another idea or two I'm going to try.
2sunny Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 I've done something like that before, believe it or not, and her normal response is to just work clear through the morning & return to help get the kids to school. I have another idea or two I'm going to try. well - at least your kids would understand that SHE makes THAT choice when it happens. they should take their concerns or words to her directly, not you. it is on HER - then - to be accountable to them for her choice to not come home. they can draw their own conclusion from her action or inaction. it is not your job to defend her - they should speak to HER directly IF and WHEN they may question HER choice to work instead of coming home at a reasonable time. if she works through the night - i would be telling her - NO SHOWING UP THE NEXT MORNING - the target time to see her again would be the end of "her" business day. her work really is her OM - IF you view it from that perspective - it makes sense that she's makes her work her life - and essentially leaves you all out. HER choice = HER consequence... and see what she does with the backlash of her actions or inactions. that really is ALL hers. so IF and when it happens - just stay out of it and remind everyone what the boundary is/time element that determines HER choice to be home and participate in the family - or not.
Author NickFeek Posted August 4, 2011 Author Posted August 4, 2011 well - at least your kids would understand that SHE makes THAT choice when it happens. they should take their concerns or words to her directly, not you. it is on HER - then - to be accountable to them for her choice to not come home. they can draw their own conclusion from her action or inaction. it is not your job to defend her - they should speak to HER directly IF and WHEN they may question HER choice to work instead of coming home at a reasonable time. if she works through the night - i would be telling her - NO SHOWING UP THE NEXT MORNING - the target time to see her again would be the end of "her" business day. her work really is her OM - IF you view it from that perspective - it makes sense that she's makes her work her life - and essentially leaves you all out. HER choice = HER consequence... and see what she does with the backlash of her actions or inactions. that really is ALL hers. so IF and when it happens - just stay out of it and remind everyone what the boundary is/time element that determines HER choice to be home and participate in the family - or not. The kids do feel it, especially my oldest. She's really missing her mother big time, and at such a crucial developmental stage for a girl. We are working on this now. She has asked for certain changes from me, and in return I've asked the same of her. It's up to her to come through, or there will be consequences from me too.
2sunny Posted August 4, 2011 Posted August 4, 2011 i was just coming from a perspective of HER being accountable for the way she CHOOSES to participate... this would essentially make her accountable for her choices by having a consequence that is obvious to the entire family. it also makes it clear IF and when you ever need to explain to your kids that this isn't working for you two - that she did have choices - and made a conscious choice to be home with family - or not... but it glaringly makes her responsible and accountable for the role SHE chooses. her ACTIONS show her intent.
Author NickFeek Posted August 4, 2011 Author Posted August 4, 2011 i was just coming from a perspective of HER being accountable for the way she CHOOSES to participate... this would essentially make her accountable for her choices by having a consequence that is obvious to the entire family. it also makes it clear IF and when you ever need to explain to your kids that this isn't working for you two - that she did have choices - and made a conscious choice to be home with family - or not... but it glaringly makes her responsible and accountable for the role SHE chooses. her ACTIONS show her intent. I see what you mean. I also understand that the changes we're trying to make are a negotiation, that there are things I'll need to do too. So I'm looking at it as - if we both enter into a new agreement in good faith, then it's up to both of us to follow through with action. And if she cannot consistently follow through with her end of changes, then not only is she speaking volumes about what she's really willing to do, she's also in my mind giving me little or no reason to follow through on my end of the agreement.
Author NickFeek Posted August 6, 2011 Author Posted August 6, 2011 well? ahahaha - that is me prompting you... That's funny! We actually had our best session yet yesterday, and the first one where I felt like we were on equal footing. Part of the reason I was being cryptic is because my wife decided to look up this forum and found this thread. She did not respond well. I'm working it out with her now.
2sunny Posted August 6, 2011 Posted August 6, 2011 That's funny! We actually had our best session yet yesterday, and the first one where I felt like we were on equal footing. Part of the reason I was being cryptic is because my wife decided to look up this forum and found this thread. She did not respond well. I'm working it out with her now. wow! awesome! i would love to hear her experience and perspective in all this! ;-) so glad the counseling has finally brought some light into the room.
Author NickFeek Posted August 6, 2011 Author Posted August 6, 2011 wow! awesome! i would love to hear her experience and perspective in all this! ;-) so glad the counseling has finally brought some light into the room. Thanks! I was saying to a friend last night that yesterday was the first time in god knows how long that I felt we were on the same page, if only for a few hours. It was refreshing & added a little more in the hope column. She is not a big fan of forums like this, so my involvement here does not sit well with her. She firmly believes the anonymity is not guaranteed, and she'd hate for the personal details of her life to be revealed to everyone. Beyond that, I would also not mind her reading more of these postings to see what her input would be.
2sunny Posted August 6, 2011 Posted August 6, 2011 If she could have an open mind and just read; she could have a great resource into how you feel about the marriage. Denial hasn't been helpful thus far... I hope she changes her mind. Could also help with clarity for both of you. Change is good!
Kitsune77 Posted August 7, 2011 Posted August 7, 2011 I have read some of your posts, and I must say, your a patient guy. I also agree with 2Sunny, that in a sense , her workaholism is like an affair. Just a question, does your wife acknowledge her part in what led you to going outside your marriage to get your needs met? As I see it, the affair was a symptom of the marriage problems, not the cause. Which unless you have a sexual addiction problem( which you obviously don't) is usually the case. I don't want to jump on the bandwagon of people who always think someone is cheating, but are you sure she's not seeing someone? Staying overnight in the office sounds rather strange... Unless she just doesn't want to face the issues at home. I really hope you and your wife resolve these issues, but remember, it takes 2 people to work in something, not just you. Good luck:)
Author NickFeek Posted August 7, 2011 Author Posted August 7, 2011 If she could have an open mind and just read; she could have a great resource into how you feel about the marriage. Denial hasn't been helpful thus far... I hope she changes her mind. Could also help with clarity for both of you. Change is good! Funny but I didn't think of it that way at first. I was so taken aback by her negative response to the whole idea of this forum that I have been trying to think of a way to reconcile all this. Now that you put it this way, I may actually ADVOCATE her reading through it all.
Author NickFeek Posted August 7, 2011 Author Posted August 7, 2011 I have read some of your posts, and I must say, your a patient guy. I also agree with 2Sunny, that in a sense , her workaholism is like an affair. Just a question, does your wife acknowledge her part in what led you to going outside your marriage to get your needs met? As I see it, the affair was a symptom of the marriage problems, not the cause. Which unless you have a sexual addiction problem( which you obviously don't) is usually the case. I don't want to jump on the bandwagon of people who always think someone is cheating, but are you sure she's not seeing someone? Staying overnight in the office sounds rather strange... Unless she just doesn't want to face the issues at home. I really hope you and your wife resolve these issues, but remember, it takes 2 people to work in something, not just you. Good luck:) Thanks for weighing in. I'd say this past week was maybe the first time her acknowledgment of HER part in this went deeper than just an intellectual understanding. She may be starting to see what actions, reactions, or lack of both, helped to lead us to this place. I really do think the "affair" part of the work is all just about the work. You'd have to know her to understand how unlikely it is she'd ever have an affair with anyone. But in some ways that just makes all this harder, because it's much easier for her to justify that kind of "affair". Thank you, I'm more hopeful now than usual. That may change by next week , but it's good to have it at least for a while, and to use it to hopefully motivate change.
Afishwithabike Posted August 7, 2011 Posted August 7, 2011 Part of the reason I was being cryptic is because my wife decided to look up this forum and found this thread. She did not respond well. I'm working it out with her now. Nick, do you know much much of this massive thread she read? She may not be having a PA or EA with anyone at work, but her extraordinary devotion to her job is an affair of sorts. She devotes the time, energy and passion to it that would otherwise be given to you. It sounds to me like she's deeply attached to her workplace. Having read your thread and posted previously, it seems to me what you're missing in your marriage is not necessarily sex (although you are definitely missing out on that!), but rather intimacy and the lack of decent communication or compromise on the subject. You can't make a marriage work if you lack those things in general. I really hope that your wife is willing to work through the problem. I can't remember if this happened, but has she had a medical check up to rule out other things? This is really off the wall, but do you think she could be a lesbian?
willowthewisp Posted August 7, 2011 Posted August 7, 2011 Funny but I didn't think of it that way at first. I was so taken aback by her negative response to the whole idea of this forum that I have been trying to think of a way to reconcile all this. Now that you put it this way, I may actually ADVOCATE her reading through it all. Well if she just wants yours and 2sunnys perspective then yeah sure! Most of us stopped posting to you long ago (yes some of us discuss your thread on PM) because everytime someone said something you did not want to hear, said anything that went against your own opinion, you ignored it. The only reason I have posted this now is in case your wife does read this thread so that she can see that some people on this forum do see her side of things. As for the affair being a symptom of your marital problems, well, having marital problems is one thing but HOW you CHOSE to deal with them, that is ENTIRELY on you and you ALONE, nothing to do with your wife. You had choices, you chose to commit adultery. In case your wife reads this, I feel incrediably sorry you and personally hunny I think you deserve better. Go ahead and blast me.
Author NickFeek Posted August 8, 2011 Author Posted August 8, 2011 Nick, do you know much much of this massive thread she read? She may not be having a PA or EA with anyone at work, but her extraordinary devotion to her job is an affair of sorts. She devotes the time, energy and passion to it that would otherwise be given to you. It sounds to me like she's deeply attached to her workplace. Having read your thread and posted previously, it seems to me what you're missing in your marriage is not necessarily sex (although you are definitely missing out on that!), but rather intimacy and the lack of decent communication or compromise on the subject. You can't make a marriage work if you lack those things in general. I really hope that your wife is willing to work through the problem. I can't remember if this happened, but has she had a medical check up to rule out other things? This is really off the wall, but do you think she could be a lesbian? I'm not really sure how much she read. I know she printed out about ten pages worth for us to read together, but we never got to it so I don't know which ten. I do know she started from the beginning. I agree with your large paragraph completely. I do think she & I are finally in agreement about what we need to work on. Still early stages in my mind, but positive. She has definitely not had any kind of medical checkup. Even the consideration that there may be another cause is beyond what she is willing to consider. Ha, what's funny is I've actually brought that up over the years - with HER. I don't really think she's a lesbian, but it crossed my mind enough times for me to suggest it. My guess is really just megawatt repression & fear, and I absolutely hope we touch on that more in our sessions, and certainly at home. I know we'll do the latter, but it may take the former for there to be real progress.
Author NickFeek Posted August 8, 2011 Author Posted August 8, 2011 Well if she just wants yours and 2sunnys perspective then yeah sure! Most of us stopped posting to you long ago (yes some of us discuss your thread on PM) because everytime someone said something you did not want to hear, said anything that went against your own opinion, you ignored it. The only reason I have posted this now is in case your wife does read this thread so that she can see that some people on this forum do see her side of things. As for the affair being a symptom of your marital problems, well, having marital problems is one thing but HOW you CHOSE to deal with them, that is ENTIRELY on you and you ALONE, nothing to do with your wife. You had choices, you chose to commit adultery. In case your wife reads this, I feel incrediably sorry you and personally hunny I think you deserve better. Go ahead and blast me. You must have stopped reading or chose to read only certain passages, because I think you'll get a good deal of disagreement from others who've posted on saying that I ignore things I disagree with. I've answered almost every single post, and I do so thoughtfully. If I disagree, that's my prerogative, and I always do my best to both explain why AND take into account the other person's perspective. What's bizarre is that this sounds like something that could have been posted three months ago. All of what you wrote has been covered, by me and others (AND my wife & me), and quite thoroughly. Anyone who believes cheating is anyone else's fault but the cheater's is wrong. AND anyone who believes cheating is not a symptom of larger problems is also wrong. If you are the kind of person who chooses to see the world as black and white, then I'm awfully glad you and the "others" you claim to represent have stopped posting. I have admitted my full responsibility & major error countless times, but that will NEVER exclude me incorporating my wife's side of the culpability. What's more, the "hunny" you write to agrees with me. She knows she was seriously wronged, and did not deserve what I did, but she is also mature enough to acknowledge that she has issues she brought to the table. THAT and that alone is why we are closer than ever to being on the same page. And THAT ALONE is why we are working together to recover. Anything short of that and we'd have no future together.
Afishwithabike Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Nick - I've read this you started it in April. You've really bared your soul in this thread. I give you a lot of credit for sticking it out as long as you have and taking the time to respond to nearly all the comments/questions posted to you. Your infidelity wasn't right. However, there's enough blame to go around in your relationship. I remember you saying it very well a while back. You said your fault (the infidelity) is much more egregious and obvious and hers (lack of intimacy, withdrawal from the relationship, lack of sex) is more subtle and insidious. I really hope you two can reach a happier place in your marriage. I'll be honest. When you first started this thread, I didn't think there was a shot for a happy marriage. It didn't seem like there was a deep attraction in the beginning. Who starts off their marriage without having sex for the first two years?! You sounded like two good friends who married each other. I'm hoping that through intensive marital counseling and maybe a come to Jesus kind of moment for your wife that you two will find ways to meet each other's needs. *back to lurking*
trippi1432 Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 Nick - Just a note on what Willow has posted that I do say that I agree with...everyone has marital problems, big things and small things....sometimes it is hard to deal head on with the elephant in the room....but it is how we choose to deal with them that makes all the difference. I'm not going to say that you have not tried hard through the years to deal with your discontent in better ways, therapy..working towards building your own version of security for your family through working your own business to try and take the load off....but still...the marital problems were still there to be dealt with, by both you and your wife. Perhaps, neither of you chose to deal with them well over the years and in the end, you chose your path of dealing with them...and she chose hers, work. Two wrongs never make a right, but if the validation of the paths you have both taken result in an impasse or obstacle in taking your marriage to a better level for both of you to find that intimacy you BOTH most likely need and want for the marriage to thrive....then over 80 pages here have been lost.
foreal Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 For all the work you are both doing, you should be prepared to accept some things are deal breakers and your marriage may never recover from the affair.
tojaz Posted August 8, 2011 Posted August 8, 2011 You must have stopped reading or chose to read only certain passages, because I think you'll get a good deal of disagreement from others who've posted on saying that I ignore things I disagree with. I've answered almost every single post, and I do so thoughtfully. If I disagree, that's my prerogative, and I always do my best to both explain why AND take into account the other person's perspective. What's bizarre is that this sounds like something that could have been posted three months ago. All of what you wrote has been covered, by me and others (AND my wife & me), and quite thoroughly. Anyone who believes cheating is anyone else's fault but the cheater's is wrong. AND anyone who believes cheating is not a symptom of larger problems is also wrong. If you are the kind of person who chooses to see the world as black and white, then I'm awfully glad you and the "others" you claim to represent have stopped posting. I have admitted my full responsibility & major error countless times, but that will NEVER exclude me incorporating my wife's side of the culpability. What's more, the "hunny" you write to agrees with me. She knows she was seriously wronged, and did not deserve what I did, but she is also mature enough to acknowledge that she has issues she brought to the table. THAT and that alone is why we are closer than ever to being on the same page. And THAT ALONE is why we are working together to recover. Anything short of that and we'd have no future together. There are a lot of ways people choose to use LS, and one of those ways is looking for justification. Threads like that typically become a members only club where only certain theories are explored and others, while outwardly replied to are also just as quickly dispatched. Your thought process was set very early on ,something I myself eluded to on page 2 of this thread. The story has remained the same though, "how could you change your wife" many people tried to pull you into a more balanced look, those thoughts, at least in the text here, were brushed over and dismissed in favor of a view more aligned with what you desired. Creating A stalemate that has strung out 80 pages and exhausted a lot of very good and well respected posters (including Willow who was here from page 1). In the end Nick, the final decision is up to you on what you will take and what you will leave on the table, but as someone who expressed a great deal of joy on finally finding a bit of level ground with his wife, I wonder if you have asked yourself why it was such an uphill battle? A lot of that is laid out here in black and white. Your putting it together Nick, therapy seems to be helping you both, I might suggest going back to page one and looking at some of what has been said through new eyes and possibly through Mrs. Feeks as well. TOJAZ
Author NickFeek Posted August 8, 2011 Author Posted August 8, 2011 Nick - I've read this you started it in April. You've really bared your soul in this thread. I give you a lot of credit for sticking it out as long as you have and taking the time to respond to nearly all the comments/questions posted to you. Your infidelity wasn't right. However, there's enough blame to go around in your relationship. I remember you saying it very well a while back. You said your fault (the infidelity) is much more egregious and obvious and hers (lack of intimacy, withdrawal from the relationship, lack of sex) is more subtle and insidious. I really hope you two can reach a happier place in your marriage. I'll be honest. When you first started this thread, I didn't think there was a shot for a happy marriage. It didn't seem like there was a deep attraction in the beginning. Who starts off their marriage without having sex for the first two years?! You sounded like two good friends who married each other. I'm hoping that through intensive marital counseling and maybe a come to Jesus kind of moment for your wife that you two will find ways to meet each other's needs. *back to lurking* I agree with all of that, and I have to say I also did not hold out much hope in the beginning. I appreciate you seeing the whole picture, and whatever failings I've had in seeing the whole picture myself I'm absolutely working on.
Author NickFeek Posted August 8, 2011 Author Posted August 8, 2011 Nick - Just a note on what Willow has posted that I do say that I agree with...everyone has marital problems, big things and small things....sometimes it is hard to deal head on with the elephant in the room....but it is how we choose to deal with them that makes all the difference. I'm not going to say that you have not tried hard through the years to deal with your discontent in better ways, therapy..working towards building your own version of security for your family through working your own business to try and take the load off....but still...the marital problems were still there to be dealt with, by both you and your wife. Perhaps, neither of you chose to deal with them well over the years and in the end, you chose your path of dealing with them...and she chose hers, work. Two wrongs never make a right, but if the validation of the paths you have both taken result in an impasse or obstacle in taking your marriage to a better level for both of you to find that intimacy you BOTH most likely need and want for the marriage to thrive....then over 80 pages here have been lost. No question we've both chosen to either ignore our problems or deal with them in destructive ways. And I take blame for a large portion of both. What we're BOTH working towards is a different way to BE in this marriage, and a different paradigm - one that is healthier, more open & honest. It's only been recently I've felt like we've both "moved to the center" on that - each figuring out what we need to do to make this work, and ways to do it as a team & not a "two sides calling a truce" method. What I've gotten from this forum has been so valuable. I consider it a triangulation process - some of it validating what I already believe, some of it shedding light on things I should learn & understand. I have only discounted the most extreme opinions on both sides (the people who think I should just cheat all the time, and the people who think all of my marital problems come down to what I did last year), and have considered & absorbed EVERYTHING ELSE, in a way that's allowed me to grow & incorporate things I might not have otherwise. I thank you and everyone who has been so patient & open to trying to figure this out with as little pre-judgment as possible. Not sure I could have gotten this anywhere else.
Recommended Posts