25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[kilahchris]

My wife and I have been together for 25 years (married for 19). We are both 42, so that should tell you how young we were when we got together. I love and respect her, and her me. We are compatible in almost every way but two. We've recently hit on rocky times. It's always been rocky, but moreso since our third kid was born. I am extremely reluctant to break up the marriage, because I love my kids more than anything & do not want to cause them grief & pain. But I'm at my wits end & am not sure I see the future as brighter.

 

The two ways we're not compatible are in career/time, and sex. The first - we never see each other. She works close to 60 hours a week. I have a more normal job, and end up doing most of the housework & childcare. No matter how much I plead with her to try to balance her work/kid/marriage time better, things only seem to get worse. The second - we have sex MAYBE 6 times a year. It's been that way for over a decade. Our sex is rote & unvaried, and after soooo long she is still so uncomfortable with intercourse and anything beyond standard touching & missionary that I just feel hopeless about it all. She pretty much refuses to do any kind of counseling. And though we talk often, it never seems to lead to any significant change.

 

Now I'm no saint. I've done my best to be a good husband & father, but my frustration & anger often get the better of me (with her not so much the kids). She can validly complain about the way I've treated her in the past (not as much now). There are issues on both sides. The thing that crushes me is that they are recurring issues that never seem to get resolved.

 

I could go on, but I think I need a little feedback & guidance first. Please help! Thanks.

 

 

What I am going to say is very controversial but i believe it will solve you dilemna.

 

Alot of women in particular "the American women" posses a great sense of entitlement. Their ultimate goal is to marry and have kids. Your Wife of 19 years has acomplished both. She has accomplished what she considers 2 major life goals. Your sex life and what you want is not even considered priority in her mind. She is financially secured, she has offspring, and she has her wedding ring which is considered the pinancle of status in this country.

 

People have mentioned counseling, books, communicating. But as married man who understands the different natures of women. I can tell you this. It will not work in your case. She will not change and as you said she wont even consider marriage counselling. This is just irrational and selfish behaviour that stems from the entitlement syndrome I mentioned earlier. It is a mental diesease the affects alot of women today.

 

I do not advise divorce. Her lawyer friends will ravage whatever you have worked to achieve in the past 20 years. You my friend have no choice but to seek sex from outside source. Think of it this way your wife who only has sex with 6 times a year for the past 10 years is a shell of woman. She is not doing her duties as a wife. You spoken to her about it, you have pleaded with her and she refuses to change. I am pretty sure you never though 19 years of marriage would become like this. Unfortunately it has.

 

My advice since your wife has enough time allegedlly for work, you need a vacation by yourself to either Dominican republic, Brazil or Amsterdam. Fulfill your sexual needs, and you will still have your wife and family. Be safe and smart about it. Alot of men do this and it doesnt mean you love your wife any less. You are just fulfilling your needs, sex has nothing to do with emotions for most men.

 

People love talking about how important commitment is and you get screwed for life buying into the BS. You can have both your wife\family and sex life outside. No need to feel guily about it. 25 years is a long time and you should not divorce unless the love is gone.

[trippi1432]

She does feel like she bears BY FAR the greater burden, and she has felt that for years. I know I don't bear it financially, but I feel like I have more than made up for that in taking care of all the details of our life, not to mention the kids. And I also know that we need BOTH of our incomes to maintain what we have now & build for the future. Yet in all this I STILL feel inadequate. I STILL feel like I've let her down by not being the primary breadwinner.

 

I find this interesting Nick because you state that you feel inadequate and let her down by not being the primary breadwinner. These are your feelings that YOU own but how do they contribute to the overall dynamic of the relationship? My exH had these same feelings...however, he took them out as resentment towards me...not saying that you do that; however, it does affect the dynamic when you are communicating to your wife. The thing is...it does not matter at the end of the day who brings in what...what matters is how the two of you perceive each other stripped of the old way of thinking. If both of you approach things from a center of selfish egocentric thinking (Her - I bear the larger burden here...You - I am inadequate because I don't contribute financially enough)...eventually you become emasculated and both feel that each has a fault in that.

 

Personally, there was not enough "good things" stated in my marriage..thank you's, appreciation...etc...on either of our parts. Although I did brag on my exH for knowing how to do his own laundry, run a vacuum..helping out around the house....etc to be honest, I probably didn't tell him enough how much I appreciated the help...although I will say, I never chastised him either. Then again, I also wish he had not had the mindset of literally putting his hand out on payday saying "Give me Money!!"...again..my background...but I see two very intelligent people in yours with good perspectives on your marriage. This is what interests me so much about your situation because you do have a dynamic I feel you can change for the better.

 

Furthermore, even how our family members affect marriages like yours, the role-reversal, can have a bearing on how we perceive each other. My exH and I used to laugh about the fact it felt like role-reversal; but when his father was around, I saw how he felt dejected when his own father said "You did a good job marrying a woman with a good paying job who can buy a house and keep you in a good lifestyle". It was frustrating to him and caused him angst at his job because he couldn't get promoted to a higher earning potential due to education holding him back. Eventually those feelings of being inadequate affect everyone...I'm sure that she feels inadequate sometimes in being a mother and a wife with the role reversal. Have you asked her about her own feelings like this...have you shared with her yours?

 

The main ways this impacts us regarding intimacy is I feel less control & power. Her levels of stress & resentment prevent her from being "in the mood" much at all. Even when we do get together, it takes (to my mind) an inordinate amount of time for her to ease into even kissing.

 

And here is where our own insecurities, perceived notions, get us. Where we feel that we need to have control and power...no one truly has control or power in a relationship without someone getting hurt by it.

 

No question we are NOT, and possibly have never really been, free with each other. I've always had much greater capacity to be flexible & free & unself-conscious. I'm sure our semi-role reversals affect this, but considering we've had these issues since before we made much money or had any careers, that does not explain all of it. I think what's happening now is the following:

 

On her side she is realizing she does not want to be overburdened anymore, and is doing what she can to assert herself by saying that if she DOES have to continue to work like this she should at least be respected & not be badgered. I totally agree with her empowerment, but if it comes at the expense of any kind of compromise then we have a big problem - which is where things stand on this issue now.

 

On my side I realized that I do not want to sacrifice my autonomy & personal needs out of a sense of deference or inferiority to the choices she's made in her career & life. I handled that realization extremely poorly last year, and much better this year. The bottom line is she is most likely not ready to hear me out on this, and while I know she is still processing my betrayal & I need to be patient, I also know I need some assurance that we are working towards a better balance & compromise on all fronts. It's a rough situation that does not seem to be getting easier quite yet.

 

Actually Nick, it does sort of explain your side of the equation from years back to today...the feeling of being inadequate most likely started when your wife was unable to consummate the marriage....in addition, her own feeling of being inadequate most likely started there as well. I'm surprised actually that you stated that you still feel inadequate due to the financial aspect of the marriage with reading about how much therapy you have had in the past, surely your feelings on this would have been addressed when speaking with your counselor.

 

We all have insecurities and feelings of being inadequate on many things...but it's processing them that they are our own feelings and not what someone else is doing to us is key to not allowing them to build to resentments which become an immovable force in a relationship. Perhaps this is something that needs to come up in your MC sessions? Perhaps you process them better than your wife in fact....perhaps she needs help in learning how to process her own feelings on this level. If I am off-base here, I apologize.

[2sunny]

kilahchris -

 

that would be too easy - as another fundamental deficit is lack of emotional connection and intimacy. Nick's wife barely makes time to have a conversation with him - much less time to feel a part of the family dynamics.

 

it IS her blatant choice to continue focusing all her energy on work.

 

avoiding any emotional attachment... she is stuck in fear of abandonment, unable to be vulnerable and express what she may or may not want emotionally, however she has created what looks like a self fulfilling prophesy by doing things her way.

 

yep, she's controlling it - but Nick is allowing it all by continuing to stay on her path.

 

in fact, he's a great codependent - he makes it all look pretty for her while she just stays away and works... blaming her for the emptiness she delivers. he has choices. he has chosen to stay with nothing. nothing but her income and an illusion of what some call marriage.

 

he can't make her get connected to him - yet he keeps feeding more time and energy to her emptiness.

 

people say you cannot transmit something you haven't got - she transmits only negative energy - but he keeps going back for more expecting it to miraculously transform into positive energy. it's not there. he's chasing something that's not there - and his wife has repeatedly told him she doesn't intend to change it. i'll give her that - she's been consistent.

 

she has shown all the evidence anyone would need - in order to face what IS REAL. Nick denies this reality at every turn. more time wasted. he can blame no one but himself for not believing what she has stated.

 

he wants what she's never going to provide him.

 

 

 

i learned a long time ago... you can love someone a lot - but it doesn't mean it's best to be with them.

 

the reality is - it was over on their honeymoon. he just hasn't admitted that she never intended to be "all in" the way Nick had in mind.

[2sunny]

and Nick - there is nothing wrong with you. stop believing that myth.

 

start telling yourself what beauty you have.

 

stop believing that YOUR happiness needs to depend on what she is or isn't doing.

 

start living! let HER worry about HER - and YOU worry about YOU!!!

 

 

 

and if you don't think she's cheating - you are wrong! she's cheated your marriage with her imbalance of working... which has left her incapable of giving you anything except for money. so - money has become more important than you.

 

she's got everything back wards. and she's not gonna listen to you or anyone else tell her it should or could be different. she loves cheating you with working... it allows her to short change you - and therefore punish you in a very sneaky way. your marriage was done long ago - and she doesn't have any problem with the fact that the ship has sailed away - leaving you at the dock scratching your head.

Edited July 29, 2011 by 2sunny

[NickFeek]

she wants to be left alone = i'd leave her completely alone. she needs it. she only blames you for everything... which is a useful toll for her - because then she never has to look at her own way she participates.

 

step away. let her process for a good long year - meanwhile allowing her to figure out what she has and hasn't been doing that works for her.

 

what she does while you stay out of it will show you everything you need to know.

 

continue with MC in the meantime. but stay completely away unless you have a date night... to which she may or may not find time for.

 

it will be interesting to see what she finds from being on her own - without you "bothering her" - she will need to only look within... is she EVEN capable of that? dunno. easier to blame you. stop being her whipping post.

 

The therapist today was VERY proactive regarding actions we can take during the week. And my wife was much more responsive. I'm going to see how "stable" and steady she is over the next week. If she has another night like Monday, then I will more strongly suggest she take some time away. But now is not quite the time.

[NickFeek]

kilahchris -

 

that would be too easy - as another fundamental deficit is lack of emotional connection and intimacy. Nick's wife barely makes time to have a conversation with him - much less time to feel a part of the family dynamics.

 

it IS her blatant choice to continue focusing all her energy on work.

 

avoiding any emotional attachment... she is stuck in fear of abandonment, unable to be vulnerable and express what she may or may not want emotionally, however she has created what looks like a self fulfilling prophesy by doing things her way.

 

yep, she's controlling it - but Nick is allowing it all by continuing to stay on her path.

 

in fact, he's a great codependent - he makes it all look pretty for her while she just stays away and works... blaming her for the emptiness she delivers. he has choices. he has chosen to stay with nothing. nothing but her income and an illusion of what some call marriage.

 

he can't make her get connected to him - yet he keeps feeding more time and energy to her emptiness.

 

people say you cannot transmit something you haven't got - she transmits only negative energy - but he keeps going back for more expecting it to miraculously transform into positive energy. it's not there. he's chasing something that's not there - and his wife has repeatedly told him she doesn't intend to change it. i'll give her that - she's been consistent.

 

she has shown all the evidence anyone would need - in order to face what IS REAL. Nick denies this reality at every turn. more time wasted. he can blame no one but himself for not believing what she has stated.

 

he wants what she's never going to provide him.

 

 

 

i learned a long time ago... you can love someone a lot - but it doesn't mean it's best to be with them.

 

the reality is - it was over on their honeymoon. he just hasn't admitted that she never intended to be "all in" the way Nick had in mind.

 

I wouldn't go as far as all this. In fact, I'd like to correct one misperception here, which is that she ONLY transmits negative energy. She has a lot of positive energy, and we've shared in that. We ALL have to remember that I cheated & lied not very long ago, so much of what she's transmitting is colored by that.

[NickFeek]

What I am going to say is very controversial but i believe it will solve you dilemna.

 

Alot of women in particular "the American women" posses a great sense of entitlement. Their ultimate goal is to marry and have kids. Your Wife of 19 years has acomplished both. She has accomplished what she considers 2 major life goals. Your sex life and what you want is not even considered priority in her mind. She is financially secured, she has offspring, and she has her wedding ring which is considered the pinancle of status in this country.

 

People have mentioned counseling, books, communicating. But as married man who understands the different natures of women. I can tell you this. It will not work in your case. She will not change and as you said she wont even consider marriage counselling. This is just irrational and selfish behaviour that stems from the entitlement syndrome I mentioned earlier. It is a mental diesease the affects alot of women today.

 

I do not advise divorce. Her lawyer friends will ravage whatever you have worked to achieve in the past 20 years. You my friend have no choice but to seek sex from outside source. Think of it this way your wife who only has sex with 6 times a year for the past 10 years is a shell of woman. She is not doing her duties as a wife. You spoken to her about it, you have pleaded with her and she refuses to change. I am pretty sure you never though 19 years of marriage would become like this. Unfortunately it has.

 

My advice since your wife has enough time allegedlly for work, you need a vacation by yourself to either Dominican republic, Brazil or Amsterdam. Fulfill your sexual needs, and you will still have your wife and family. Be safe and smart about it. Alot of men do this and it doesnt mean you love your wife any less. You are just fulfilling your needs, sex has nothing to do with emotions for most men.

 

People love talking about how important commitment is and you get screwed for life buying into the BS. You can have both your wife\family and sex life outside. No need to feel guily about it. 25 years is a long time and you should not divorce unless the love is gone.

 

We are in counseling now. The doctor was very clear to say today that this is one of the rockier starts she's experienced, and that it's largely because my wife is very uncomfortable with it all, and sees it as a threat. My wife was better today, and agreed with all this, so hopefully we're finding a corner to turn. I do agree with some of what you said, and I've certainly considered getting my needs met somewhere else, but my conscience just won't be able to live with that. Plus I'm one of those rare dudes who likes some emotional content with his sex .

[NickFeek]

I find this interesting Nick because you state that you feel inadequate and let her down by not being the primary breadwinner. These are your feelings that YOU own but how do they contribute to the overall dynamic of the relationship?

 

All true and very insightful. So much to go over here! I've tried to excerpt only the things I'll respond to, to give us all a break!

 

To answer that first question would take a entire separate page. I'd say in short my feelings don't stop me from achieving outside the home, and being a good parent, but they have taken away some of my ability to stand for what I need (in my mind at least), and I've "gone underground" so to speak to get my needs met - whether that's meant porn or cheating or sneaking out of work to see a movie by myself or whatever.

 

This is what interests me so much about your situation because you do have a dynamic I feel you can change for the better.

 

I have tried to show this side of things here, though I think the overall impression people get it is still overwhelmingly negative. No question things are very negative now AND that we've had strains of negativity throughout. But we've also had some strong & positive things, and HAVE been through other crises we've healed from. Nothing so bad as recently, but enough to prove we can do it - one main reason I'm sticking around and giving this a shot.

 

Eventually those feelings of being inadequate affect everyone...I'm sure that she feels inadequate sometimes in being a mother and a wife with the role reversal. Have you asked her about her own feelings like this...have you shared with her yours?

 

She does feel inadequate about that, but that does not seem to diminish her powerful work stance. Just today I shared my feelings with her in as clear a way as I've ever done. She really appreciated hearing that and now better understands why I feel so negative toward her work (one reason anyway).

 

Actually Nick, it does sort of explain your side of the equation from years back to today...the feeling of being inadequate most likely started when your wife was unable to consummate the marriage....in addition, her own feeling of being inadequate most likely started there as well. I'm surprised actually that you stated that you still feel inadequate due to the financial aspect of the marriage with reading about how much therapy you have had in the past, surely your feelings on this would have been addressed when speaking with your counselor.

 

Perhaps this is something that needs to come up in your MC sessions? Perhaps you process them better than your wife in fact....perhaps she needs help in learning how to process her own feelings on this level. If I am off-base here, I apologize.

 

All very true. And stuff we have brought up in our sessions and at home. Really this is just the beginning of all this, and that's why I'm trying to be careful not to expect instant change/results.

 

No, you're not off base. I think it's safe to say she's not comfortable going certain places emotionally. And while I continue to discover new facets of my worries & fears, I'm not at all uncomfortable with any of it. A good example is this work issue. I did work out a ton of it in therapy, but it was more in the context of me as an individual. I guess I didn't really address the aspect of it relating directly to the marriage. And that's what we're doing now.

[NickFeek]

and Nick - there is nothing wrong with you. stop believing that myth.

 

start telling yourself what beauty you have.

 

stop believing that YOUR happiness needs to depend on what she is or isn't doing.

 

start living! let HER worry about HER - and YOU worry about YOU!!!

 

and if you don't think she's cheating - you are wrong! she's cheated your marriage with her imbalance of working... which has left her incapable of giving you anything except for money. so - money has become more important than you.

 

she's got everything back wards. and she's not gonna listen to you or anyone else tell her it should or could be different. she loves cheating you with working... it allows her to short change you - and therefore punish you in a very sneaky way. your marriage was done long ago - and she doesn't have any problem with the fact that the ship has sailed away - leaving you at the dock scratching your head.

 

Thank you for saying that. And I hear you that I need to find my happiness within. I'm seeing that more now because of this crisis. I think I would have kept on believing I had it all figured out if not for this.

 

She does love me, but has not shown it for real in a long time. And I have been dishonest & withholding of my needs. So this to me is our LAST CHANCE as individuals and as a couple to get all that taken care of. If this process doesn't work, THEN I'll agree with your last paragraph. But I've seen enough shifts & glimmers in even just six sessions to want to stick with it for the time being.

[2sunny]

NickFeek;3538950]I wouldn't go as far as all this. In fact, I'd like to correct one misperception here, which is that she ONLY transmits negative energy. She has a lot of positive energy, and we've shared in that.

 

ok, i believe you. she doesn't ONLY transmit negative energy.

 

she mainly acts and reacts negatively when you want any change. meanwhile she knows you are unhappy with the way things are.

 

We ALL have to remember that I cheated & lied not very long ago, so much of what she's transmitting is colored by that.

 

too much focus in on this. it's her excuse to be more mad at you. hanging on to anger is NOT productive - yet she throws it in your face like a weapon. that is never going to help the healing and moving past this process. she should write a letter and say all the negative things she wants to say - then have you read it - and burn it together... letting it all go!

 

i don't say this to many cheaters- i can't see that YOU caused all of your cheating. i know you had choices - but still - even now - she knows she's still ignoring your basic needs and expects you to just take her old F you, i'm still not going to participate with you on any deep intimate level! it's still very unkind of her.

 

IF i were married and I were ignored and starving for companionship and affection and sex and intimacy - knowing full well I had begged for my spouse to provide it for me by participating in the marriage and finding that my spouse completely ignored my basic needs - i'm certain i would tell my spouse i'm going to find someone else to give me the things i'm not willing to live without.

 

i'm not totally justifying it - but i can't understand why she expects you to live a life without affection, sex and intimacy - so YES, she is also PARTIALLY to blame. all of that IS totally expected when two people marry.

 

you love defending her and taking blame on yourself.

 

time to start allowing her to OWN HOW SHE PARTICIPATES without you being her buffer - one that seems to be way too comfortable with being ignored and abused. stop protecting her from herself.

 

there are a TON of reasons she should be alone for a long while. she needs change! if not for anything else - but to force her to get used to the act that when things change it is NOT the end of the world - and being alone isn't a scary thing! it could be looked at as her enlightenment period.

[trippi1432]

Thank you for saying that. And I hear you that I need to find my happiness within. I'm seeing that more now because of this crisis. I think I would have kept on believing I had it all figured out if not for this.

 

She does love me, but has not shown it for real in a long time. And I have been dishonest & withholding of my needs. So this to me is our LAST CHANCE as individuals and as a couple to get all that taken care of. If this process doesn't work, THEN I'll agree with your last paragraph. But I've seen enough shifts & glimmers in even just six sessions to want to stick with it for the time being.

 

You do need to find your happiness from within Nick...but in positive outlets that people are people with their own perspectives...actually, I have picked up on the fact that you already know this by your posts here and how you interact with each poster.

 

Honestly..in the wake of it all...the one thing we forget to be outside of our titles..our own expectations..other's expectations...demands from our kids...our family ...of each other..we forget to just be ourselves. The only time when we are honest, naked and bare with ourselves is when we feel "safe"..not judged..not criticized....free. I think that is the intimacy you are striving for..not just a focus on sex..but on emotional intimacy.

 

You will not get emotional intimacy by trying to force change, making demands...you will reduce her to a child and she will rebel. Why? Because she is an adult, a mother and a wife.....you are an adult, a father and a husband. We can all talk a good game about making how someone else makes us feel about ourselves....but at the crux..it is about mutual respect. You defend her because you love her..there is nothing weak in that. She needs to see that and follow suit..that is where you want to get to. Keep that in mind as you get her to these MC sessions.

 

I am pulling for the two of you...what other's preach are where you might need to get to if it doesn't work out....heck half of us are divorced anyway. :o Good luck Nick...

Edited July 30, 2011 by trippi1432

[NickFeek]

ok, i believe you. she doesn't ONLY transmit negative energy.

 

she mainly acts and reacts negatively when you want any change. meanwhile she knows you are unhappy with the way things are.

 

Okay I do agree with that for the most part. The things that are harder for her to change she reacts so violently to that it's effectively a shutdown of all communication. Other smaller changes she's willing to work with me on. To me it's a matter of turning those small changes into bigger ones.

 

too much focus in on this. it's her excuse to be more mad at you. hanging on to anger is NOT productive - yet she throws it in your face like a weapon. that is never going to help the healing and moving past this process. she should write a letter and say all the negative things she wants to say - then have you read it - and burn it together... letting it all go!

 

I agree that her hanging on to anger hurts her maybe even more than me. I don't her anger is unreasonable though. Then again, if things continue this way - i.e. every time we get to a core issue her anger wells back up to the same high level, then I would have to be suspicious that she may be using it as a fallback position anytime things get uncomfortable.

 

i don't say this to many cheaters- i can't see that YOU caused all of your cheating. i know you had choices - but still - even now - she knows she's still ignoring your basic needs and expects you to just take her old F you, i'm still not going to participate with you on any deep intimate level! it's still very unkind of her.

 

IF i were married and I were ignored and starving for companionship and affection and sex and intimacy - knowing full well I had begged for my spouse to provide it for me by participating in the marriage and finding that my spouse completely ignored my basic needs - i'm certain i would tell my spouse i'm going to find someone else to give me the things i'm not willing to live without.

 

i'm not totally justifying it - but i can't understand why she expects you to live a life without affection, sex and intimacy - so YES, she is also PARTIALLY to blame. all of that IS totally expected when two people marry.

 

you love defending her and taking blame on yourself.

 

time to start allowing her to OWN HOW SHE PARTICIPATES without you being her buffer - one that seems to be way too comfortable with being ignored and abused. stop protecting her from herself.

 

I agree with all of that, and I know she HAS to take more of this on (she started to do that today in the session) for us to really move forward & heal. But let me give you maybe a clearer picture of recent years, concerning something I may have downplayed. If I didn't then I guess you're right! Here goes....

 

Prior to her finding out about my cheating, I was verbally abusive. I would constantly harass her about her work hours, her ignoring me. I would send emails that no sane person should send to another person's work address. When we got into fights, I'd call her a b*tch and use lots of other disparaging words & phrases. Her contention is that why would anyone want to respond with affection to someone who treats them that way? Now in among that I was still doing my kid & house duties, and there were certainly many days & times we got along and I was more patient, kind and understanding. But there's no question I crossed the civility line hundreds of times, and spent a lot of that time blaming her for all of our problems while doing very little on my end to change things.

 

Having heard that, do you still feel her anger is overblown? Do you still feel her neglect of me is unjustified? I'm talking specifically about the last 2-3 years.

 

there are a TON of reasons she should be alone for a long while. she needs change! if not for anything else - but to force her to get used to the act that when things change it is NOT the end of the world - and being alone isn't a scary thing! it could be looked at as her enlightenment period.

 

This is 100% true. But I'll say that even WITHIN the context of our marriage there are ways she could find space for herself. She doesn't because she does not like the space, the quiet. So my belief is that if she were to leave and be alone, she'd fill up just as much if not more of her time & mental space. I would bet anything that the only way she'd give herself space is if she had a complete nervous breakdown.

[NickFeek]

You do need to find your happiness from within Nick...but in positive outlets that people are people with their own perspectives...actually, I have picked up on the fact that you already know this by your posts here and how you interact with each poster.

 

Honestly..in the wake of it all...the one thing we forget to be outside of our titles..our own expectations..other's expectations...demands from our kids...our family ...of each other..we forget to just be ourselves. The only time when we are honest, naked and bare with ourselves is when we feel "safe"..not judged..not criticized....free. I think that is the intimacy you are striving for..not just a focus on sex..but on emotional intimacy.

 

Very true. I learned from years of therapy & self-reflection how to stop judging myself. I do revert back to that during crisis periods sometimes, but overall I am confident I could be with myself on any given day and feel good. That bolded passage up there made me well up. That IS what I'm missing. I get it from some friends, and yes here online (though anonymously). But here at home it just doesn't exist.

 

You will not get emotional intimacy by trying to force change, making demands...you will reduce her to a child and she will rebel. Why? Because she is an adult, a mother and a wife.....you are an adult, a father and a husband. We can all talk a good game about making how someone else makes us feel about ourselves....but at the crux..it is about mutual respect. You defend her because you love her..there is nothing weak in that. She needs to see that and follow suit..that is where you want to get to. Keep that in mind as you get her to these MC sessions.

 

I am pulling for the two of you...what other's preach are where you might need to get to if it doesn't work out....heck half of us are divorced anyway. :o Good luck Nick...

 

Ha yeah I've noticed! So at least I know if things go sideways I'll be in very good company.

 

My wife has always bristled when loved ones make demands on her. And while in part this is self protection, and in part it's self empowerment, there's that other part which is avoidance of sacrifice & change. I am seeing as we go through this process that my approach has more often than not been ham-handed - beating her over the head with what I want, what I think she should do, should change, should NOT do, etc. The more I did that, the more she retreated into work or kids or herself. The more she retreated the lonelier & angrier I got. So I'd ramp up my efforts, making her retreat & RESENT even more. Things would escalate time and again. And so I think part of what she's exorcising now is the fallout from that cycle of attack/retreat, maybe even moreso than the fallout from my cheating. The cheating just empowers her to finally fight back.

 

What she and we need to find is that space where she feels safe & loving enough to want to make changes without me trying to force them. That's one thing our therapist is adamant about: creating a completely safe environment in her office. And then eventually growing that safety beyond her walls. For my part I need to change my communication style, and listen to her in more detail about her job pressures. I also need to trust that she will come through - something I've never believed, not for our entire marriage. For her part she needs to work through the animosity & understand her culpability in all this, so that she can find the empathy & compassion & love for me to want to change on her own. AND she needs to show her words can be consistently backed up with action.

 

In theory this is all doable. There's a method & a series of actions etc. that could bring us to a much better place. In practice, however, it is exhausting, daunting, fraught with pitfalls & backslides, debilitating, frightening, and often hopeless. So as usual I'm an optimistic pessimist, and that does not help answer this thread's dilemma in the least!

[2sunny]

ok - so you have been verbally abusive in the past... that info helps a bit.

 

in order to gain her trust in you - you need to commit to NOT ever doing things that way again.

 

there are many times when i'm angry - but i don't yell at the ones i love. i simply and calmly state MY truth.

 

my exH was extremely verbally abusive... and i am hyper sensitive to others who raise their voice at me... and i DO have choices! when this happens now - i state - "it sounds like you are yelling at me - please tell me what you intend for me to hear without raising your voice"

 

the choice is mine to state what i am NOT comfortable with.

 

it doesn't make you a good or bad person that you did this - it just shows you what YOU can change about yourself.

 

a message can be effective without raising the voice. especially if the person you are speaking to repeats back what was said.

 

only after consistent time with using your calm voice will she begin to believe that you aren't in this to yell at her.

 

besides - you don't want to teach your kids that when they grow up - the way to communicate with their loved ones is to yell at them, do you? they learn what they see/hear...

 

we can all learn new ways of acting/reacting - once we determine what is or isn't effective and loving behavior.

 

maybe you can make a commitment to her out loud (IF you can stick to it) that you won't use your voice like you used to.

 

for me? i vowed to myself to point out to others when they used unacceptable voice/connotation directed at me. a simple prompt allows another person to understand that they crossed a boundary of MINE. it may look like this "i'm not diggin' you raising your voice at me" or "it seems you are yelling at me when it's not necessary- please use a normal voice" or "i stop listening because i feel defensive with that tone - please write down what you feel and leave it on the kitchen counter so i can consider what you intended to convey"

 

THAT is my healthy boundary - one i decide for change - when i considered never wanting others to feel they could yell at me again.

 

she has choices too. she no longer has to retreat into hiding to avoid conflict - she can CHANGE - and state where her boundary is - so that you two can communicate and move through these feelings you're both trying to avoid.

 

so - you can work on using a tempered voice to communicate - and she can use her voice to state her preference if things ever escalate.

 

 

she may have been so used to this in childhood it IS her sense of NORMAL - and her coping with it all is to run and hide - never saying anything...stewing - and being resentful. change would mean she has a voice and speaks her truth! not only in the M but also in her job. people take their natural communication tendencies into their job too - so someone their is most likely always dumping on her too - yet she sits quietly and takes it - resenting the hell out of them as well - just her natural way of "dealing with life"

 

she was trained to take verbal abuse - you can help her change that - and allow her to feel "safe" with you - but it takes a lot of time and consistent behavior on your part (years usually) for the victim to begin to believe that the yeller isn't going to do it anymore. one slip and it ruins the belief for hope of a new way.

 

she can state what her truth is - mine sounds like this "i deserve to be treated with loving behavior - and if you intend to tell me something i may not wish to hear - please be reasonable when you deliver your words"

 

we can't change the past - so let it go - you CAN change today.

[NickFeek]

maybe you can make a commitment to her out loud (IF you can stick to it) that you won't use your voice like you used to.

 

she has choices too. she no longer has to retreat into hiding to avoid conflict - she can CHANGE - and state where her boundary is - so that you two can communicate and move through these feelings you're both trying to avoid.

 

so - you can work on using a tempered voice to communicate - and she can use her voice to state her preference if things ever escalate.

 

she may have been so used to this in childhood it IS her sense of NORMAL - and her coping with it all is to run and hide - never saying anything...stewing - and being resentful. change would mean she has a voice and speaks her truth! not only in the M but also in her job. people take their natural communication tendencies into their job too - so someone their is most likely always dumping on her too - yet she sits quietly and takes it - resenting the hell out of them as well - just her natural way of "dealing with life"

 

she was trained to take verbal abuse - you can help her change that - and allow her to feel "safe" with you - but it takes a lot of time and consistent behavior on your part (years usually) for the victim to begin to believe that the yeller isn't going to do it anymore. one slip and it ruins the belief for hope of a new way.

 

she can state what her truth is - mine sounds like this "i deserve to be treated with loving behavior - and if you intend to tell me something i may not wish to hear - please be reasonable when you deliver your words"

 

we can't change the past - so let it go - you CAN change today.

 

This is all really helpful. Some of it we've actually started doing. I have definitely pulled back from my abusive communication behavior. She is trying her best to speak up more, and has absolutely stated what she will no longer tolerate.

 

Yes, there's a good chance she was used to this as a kid. From her mother, not her father. Her two methods of coping were/are to retreat OR to give as good as she gets. We've gotten into some amped up shouting matches over the years, and she's said some hurtful things too.

 

No question whatever the details that we have to work on our communication & ways of responding to negative feelings.

 

Right now, though, the biggest issue seems to be she is having as hard a time trusting me now as she was months ago. I'm doing everything I can to reestablish trust, to reassure her & prove I can be trusted, but I'm not making any progress. And with her stuck there, or those feelings of distrust welling back up anytime something hits her the wrong way, our ability to stay on track with our rebuilding & reconnecting work is just completely shot to hell.

 

We have some hours alone in a car today, so hopefully we'll use that well.

[Lexygirl]

Right now, though, the biggest issue seems to be she is having as hard a time trusting me now as she was months ago. I'm doing everything I can to reestablish trust, to reassure her & prove I can be trusted, but I'm not making any progress. And with her stuck there, or those feelings of distrust welling back up anytime something hits her the wrong way, our ability to stay on track with our rebuilding & reconnecting work is just completely shot to hell.

 

 

It's that defense mechanism that I call a wall. I think that the only way to keep the wall down is consistant communication. So many things can be misinterpreted especially if trust has been broken in the past.

Anyway, good luck on your drive. Hope you two can have some quality time together.

[NickFeek]

It's that defense mechanism that I call a wall. I think that the only way to keep the wall down is consistant communication. So many things can be misinterpreted especially if trust has been broken in the past.

Anyway, good luck on your drive. Hope you two can have some quality time together.

 

That is really true. And we definitely do not have consistent communication, and never have.

 

Thanks, we'll see!

[2sunny]

if and when you two want to slip back into old behavior of yelling - immediately move to the written word. writing things down makes one think - and process how they are conveying a message.

 

assessing on paper whether or not it may be words that cause harm is good to see - especially if you have time to look at it before handing your hurtful words over to her.

 

instead of writing this:

 

i hate it when you work all the time!

 

you could write this:

 

i would love it if you came home early so we could go for a walk together after having dinner at 630. is that possible today?

 

see the difference?

 

try to write in a positive form - that conveys what you want/expect. she then has choices to do this - or not... she should be willing to answer yes or no to what you ask.

[NickFeek]

if and when you two want to slip back into old behavior of yelling - immediately move to the written word. writing things down makes one think - and process how they are conveying a message.

 

assessing on paper whether or not it may be words that cause harm is good to see - especially if you have time to look at it before handing your hurtful words over to her.

 

instead of writing this:

 

i hate it when you work all the time!

 

you could write this:

 

i would love it if you came home early so we could go for a walk together after having dinner at 630. is that possible today?

 

see the difference?

 

try to write in a positive form - that conveys what you want/expect. she then has choices to do this - or not... she should be willing to answer yes or no to what you ask.

 

Oh absolutely. We've both been making strides in this area. It's never easy, but once we can start to see the triggers or the beginnings of talking that way, we can catch it before it escalates.

[trippi1432]

2Sunny - now I need to find a "like" button....very good advice on the verbal abuse and communication method. Thumbs up!!

[2sunny]

now that a few days have passed since the counseling session -

 

allow me to understand what change YOU are making at this juncture...

[NickFeek]

now that a few days have passed since the counseling session -

 

allow me to understand what change YOU are making at this juncture...

 

I hate to be cryptic, but I'll have to get back to you after tomorrow's session. I'll explain why then.

[2sunny]

I hate to be cryptic, but I'll have to get back to you after tomorrow's session. I'll explain why then.

 

that is odd - you should be capable of explaining what YOU are doing to change things.

 

this really is about you Nick... your thoughts, actions and the way YOU participate.

 

YOU - YOU - YOU... not really what everyone else is changing - what anyone else is DOING - only YOU... that is the only person you CAN control.

[NickFeek]

that is odd - you should be capable of explaining what YOU are doing to change things.

 

this really is about you Nick... your thoughts, actions and the way YOU participate.

 

YOU - YOU - YOU... not really what everyone else is changing - what anyone else is DOING - only YOU... that is the only person you CAN control.

 

I'm doing quite a bit, mainly carving out more time for myself regardless of my wife's daily needs. And I'm insisting we stick to the plans we've made regarding her coming home earlier from work. But that's not what my response was about, and I can't elaborate on that until tomorrow.

[2sunny]

I'm doing quite a bit, mainly carving out more time for myself regardless of my wife's daily needs.

 

this is good! this IS what YOU can control!

 

And I'm insisting we stick to the plans we've made regarding her coming home earlier from work.

 

this is leaving yourself at the mercy of what SHE does or doesn't do...

 

 

see how things get convoluted and contradicted? please clarify which it is... cuz you can't really do BOTH at the same time effectively... just pointing out the obvious.