2sunny Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 so stop pressuring her. in fact, have her move out if it helps. that's what my friend did with her husband while they saw the counselor. it helped them to understand what they did and didn't want from each other. you spend so much time and energy worrying about how she feels, what she thinks, how she acts, how she reacts - i'm left wondering if she ever considers how you feel, what you think etc. she appears very selfish and self serving, taking none of the blame as her own - then a pity party because she works too hard. move. change jobs. new scenery. change it all if it's so bad the way it is now. the imbalance in your interactions shows you need to care a little less about her and allow her to start caring a bit more about you and the marriage. this may only be possible for her to ponder if she's given plenty of space and time without you - to fully process what it's like without you talking to her regularly, worrying enough for both of you, and fixing all her daily needs while she hunkers down at work all day everyday. allow her to find out how she likes life without the pressures. you take the kids - leave her on her own for a long while - and don't bug her about anything while you do this. she may find that what she's been wanting isn't as glorified as her mind imagines it is. or she may find that she's such an independent and isolating individual that she needs no one. let her find out for herself. it may be the only way. and the counselor - too much research...without getting you two into changes... no wonder it's all feeling nothing but negative. change should have been integrated weeks ago. sitting in that much negativity without new solutions and ideas presented is never good for a marriage in crisis. you point out your wife's negative habits and thoughts and actions - and then you feed them by attempting to fix it all for her. then she's mad that you are doing this. seems a bit passive aggressive. you can't fix it for her. that is hers and hers alone. start taking care of YOU by focusing only on the positive things... every thought and action should/could be designed to keep your mind in a healthy, positive place. stay away for a while and see how your energy feels without the negative pull from her. each and every time she moves to anything negative simply tell her you have ruled that out as part of your daily exercise. tell her it's hers and you're not going to discuss her negativity anymore - that it's hers and hers alone. it will become glaringly obvious after a while that she is creating it on purpose to get you to act for her or to react and do more for her. she CAN control hers too - but she opts to throw it on you and have you fix things for her while she stays at work. its extremely avoidant behavior all the way around. she wants to be absent - but have everything taken care of - then complain with negativity that life isn't what she expected. what a joke - it never is unless we make opposite choices - opposite of what we know hasn't been working for us. but she won't - and still chooses to complain and be negative. around and around she goes. well - it is HERS - so let her have that and step away so you can gain some clarity about what is really going on - and she can do the same. you do NOT need to be at the mercy of her negativity! stay on the positive always - grow YOUR positive energy bigger - especially by shutting down any negativity.
Author NickFeek Posted July 27, 2011 Author Posted July 27, 2011 so stop pressuring her. in fact, have her move out if it helps. that's what my friend did with her husband while they saw the counselor. it helped them to understand what they did and didn't want from each other. That's exactly what I suggested to her Monday night. Although in her scenario it's me that will be doing the moving out. Either way the separation would probably help her see what she can't see now. you spend so much time and energy worrying about how she feels, what she thinks, how she acts, how she reacts - i'm left wondering if she ever considers how you feel, what you think etc. she appears very selfish and self serving, taking none of the blame as her own - then a pity party because she works too hard. move. change jobs. new scenery. change it all if it's so bad the way it is now. She swings wildly from being so depressed & anxious that she can only consider her own needs, to bouncing back and worrying about me. Sometimes I follow her up & down (bad idea), and other times I'm immune to it. But in both cases she's not nearly to the point where she feels she can or should take any of the blame. I'm actually surprised how steadfastly she's holding onto her righteousness. I really thought she'd see more room for compromise right now. I think part of her is empowered by my cheating, because she feels it gives her license to take whatever she needs. Some of that is good, because for too long she has devalued her own needs. But as usual it gets taken to an extreme. the imbalance in your interactions shows you need to care a little less about her and allow her to start caring a bit more about you and the marriage. I agree. I need to find a way not to give in to the good moods, because that's usually the gateway to also giving in to her bad mood. And it's been so exhausting. this may only be possible for her to ponder if she's given plenty of space and time without you - to fully process what it's like without you talking to her regularly, worrying enough for both of you, and fixing all her daily needs while she hunkers down at work all day everyday. allow her to find out how she likes life without the pressures. you take the kids - leave her on her own for a long while - and don't bug her about anything while you do this. she may find that what she's been wanting isn't as glorified as her mind imagines it is. or she may find that she's such an independent and isolating individual that she needs no one. Exactly. She could go either way. My gut says she's convinced herself of things that aren't true, and will see what she'd be missing. But either way if that's what she needs to figure this out then she should do it. let her find out for herself. it may be the only way. and the counselor - too much research...without getting you two into changes... no wonder it's all feeling nothing but negative. change should have been integrated weeks ago. sitting in that much negativity without new solutions and ideas presented is never good for a marriage in crisis. Well you know I disagree with this because we've gone over it before. Sure, there are some stock changes & actions the therapist can suggest right off, and she has done that. But to really understand what changes a couple needs I believe a therapist has to actually KNOW THE COUPLE, which can only come from learning by talking with her. you point out your wife's negative habits and thoughts and actions - and then you feed them by attempting to fix it all for her. then she's mad that you are doing this. seems a bit passive aggressive. you can't fix it for her. that is hers and hers alone. start taking care of YOU by focusing only on the positive things... every thought and action should/could be designed to keep your mind in a healthy, positive place. stay away for a while and see how your energy feels without the negative pull from her. each and every time she moves to anything negative simply tell her you have ruled that out as part of your daily exercise. tell her it's hers and you're not going to discuss her negativity anymore - that it's hers and hers alone. it will become glaringly obvious after a while that she is creating it on purpose to get you to act for her or to react and do more for her. This is a great idea. I felt the power of this in part on Monday night, as I started to pull away from the emotional content of her despair & just listened to the words & what I believed her intentions were. And I DO AGREE that she is IN PART trying to push my buttons. No matter how much lip service she gives to change & building a different & better relationship, the despairing part of her knows she'd feel more comfortable if I responded the way I always did. And I just can't do that anymore. she CAN control hers too - but she opts to throw it on you and have you fix things for her while she stays at work. its extremely avoidant behavior all the way around. she wants to be absent - but have everything taken care of - then complain with negativity that life isn't what she expected. what a joke - it never is unless we make opposite choices - opposite of what we know hasn't been working for us. but she won't - and still chooses to complain and be negative. around and around she goes. well - it is HERS - so let her have that and step away so you can gain some clarity about what is really going on - and she can do the same. you do NOT need to be at the mercy of her negativity! stay on the positive always - grow YOUR positive energy bigger - especially by shutting down any negativity. I'm going to work harder on growing the positive. She still has an immense power over me, and is very good at finding ways to bring me into her circle of pain & fear & anger. I understand I have to acknowledge & respect her feelings, and take responsibility for my behaviors, but I really no longer see why I need to be subjected to constant negativity.
2sunny Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 you seem to show consistent effort at believing all those lies we were all taught when we were young. being true to self includes letting go completely of the ones that no longer work in helping to be the best person we can possibly be - our authentic self. have you read that book yet? the voice of knowledge? you still place YOUR happiness at the mercy of her - and what she is or isn't doing. since you seem to caretake the kids more, it seems more logical that she would be the one to move if need be. but she's only thinking of herself... i'd suggest letting go of all those preconceived ideas that don't work for you - including that you must stay married forever, no matter what. once i let go absolutely - a whole new fabulous life opened up. one that doesn't include negativity or selfishness.
Author NickFeek Posted July 27, 2011 Author Posted July 27, 2011 you seem to show consistent effort at believing all those lies we were all taught when we were young. being true to self includes letting go completely of the ones that no longer work in helping to be the best person we can possibly be - our authentic self. have you read that book yet? the voice of knowledge? you still place YOUR happiness at the mercy of her - and what she is or isn't doing. since you seem to caretake the kids more, it seems more logical that she would be the one to move if need be. but she's only thinking of herself... i'd suggest letting go of all those preconceived ideas that don't work for you - including that you must stay married forever, no matter what. once i let go absolutely - a whole new fabulous life opened up. one that doesn't include negativity or selfishness. No I haven't read that book. I am reading others that have helped in this regard. But really the toughest part of all this is deciding what rights I have and what level of separation I should seek considering what I did. She is still struggling with trusting me & even knowing if she can heal & forgive enough to stay with me. All of which is perfectly consistent with the after-process of having been cheated on & lied to. So while we can still work to build & rebuild during this time, I can't discount what she's going through, which I'm sure is playing a big part in her moods/selfishness/etc. Nothing out of the ordinary considering the circumstances. As for her leaving, she has made it clear if I try to take the kids there will be a huge legal battle. I have not yet decided if it's worth it enough for me to put the kids through that.
2sunny Posted July 27, 2011 Posted July 27, 2011 No I haven't read that book. I am reading others that have helped in this regard. But really the toughest part of all this is deciding what rights I have and what level of separation I should seek considering what I did. She is still struggling with trusting me & even knowing if she can heal & forgive enough to stay with me. All of which is perfectly consistent with the after-process of having been cheated on & lied to. So while we can still work to build & rebuild during this time, I can't discount what she's going through, which I'm sure is playing a big part in her moods/selfishness/etc. Nothing out of the ordinary considering the circumstances. As for her leaving, she has made it clear if I try to take the kids there will be a huge legal battle. I have not yet decided if it's worth it enough for me to put the kids through that. all of this is still worrying about how others feel and act. still - you can only do you. don't assume things will be what she has threatened in the past. i definitely think if she had plenty of "her own" time - she could process things more readily - and you as well. the negative energy flying around has clouded everyone's best efforts. the kids adjust... i can tell you from experience... they mainly need to know they are loved and safe. you are both capable of doing that for them. it actually helped my boys - by not seeing my exH yelling at me all the time and me just taking his crappy behavior as my (and their) sense of "normal." they now understand that it is NOT normal for any person to spew that kind of negativity on others. they have learned to tell him when he's completely unreasonable and/or mean spirited. i couldn't do that for them - they had to learn to do that for themselves. time apart to process, think with some clarity instead of chaos and resistance - would most likely show you two what the next best step may be for all. since she wants peace and quiet - offer it up to her - as she HAS said that's what she wants. stay true to self in the process. keep writing things down so you understand what is agreed upon and what she moves away from. not giving an answer/resolve to issues should no longer be acceptable = you have plenty of evidence it hasn't helped the M grow to a healthy place. answers - you need answers, suggestions, consideration for anything that brings about change. write it all down.
Author NickFeek Posted July 27, 2011 Author Posted July 27, 2011 all of this is still worrying about how others feel and act. still - you can only do you. don't assume things will be what she has threatened in the past. i definitely think if she had plenty of "her own" time - she could process things more readily - and you as well. the negative energy flying around has clouded everyone's best efforts. the kids adjust... i can tell you from experience... they mainly need to know they are loved and safe. you are both capable of doing that for them. it actually helped my boys - by not seeing my exH yelling at me all the time and me just taking his crappy behavior as my (and their) sense of "normal." they now understand that it is NOT normal for any person to spew that kind of negativity on others. they have learned to tell him when he's completely unreasonable and/or mean spirited. i couldn't do that for them - they had to learn to do that for themselves. time apart to process, think with some clarity instead of chaos and resistance - would most likely show you two what the next best step may be for all. since she wants peace and quiet - offer it up to her - as she HAS said that's what she wants. stay true to self in the process. keep writing things down so you understand what is agreed upon and what she moves away from. not giving an answer/resolve to issues should no longer be acceptable = you have plenty of evidence it hasn't helped the M grow to a healthy place. answers - you need answers, suggestions, consideration for anything that brings about change. write it all down. Thank you. This helps, especially to know that the kids would adjust. That's a huge fear of mine. I am definitely keeping track of everything that's being said/done. Next time we talk, I'm going to see just how much alone/quiet time she needs, and act accordingly. I will continue to suggest she leave for a while if she needs to. Anyway, more later. My little one is throwing a mini tantrum!
trippi1432 Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 This whole post is so insightful, and while our circumstances don't exactly parallel yours & your exH's, to hear more of your story has really helped to shed light on some of what's going on here. We have both been aware for a long time the "mind games" (for want of a better phrase) our semi-role reversals have played on us as individuals and on the marriage, and are now picking the fruit of long held resentments & fears & feelings of failure, etc. For me, I tried very hard to set aside traditional thinking, and for the most part I have done that. But there's a part of me that always feels like I've failed her because I don't make as much as she does. I try to compensate by being with the kids more & being the best father I can be, and I certainly do my share of the household duties, errands, etc. But I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable with her having to bear the greater burden. I do think my nature is not 100% traditional male, because there are many aspects of our current life I have no problem with (see the sentence before last), but I'm beholden enough to my sense of "husbandly duty" to want to do more to ease her burden - which is one of the two or three main reasons why I have a company in addition to my day job. For her, she finally said point blank the other day that she is ambivalent about her job. When she's working and discussing work, she always seems to me to be so into it, so amped by it. So I just assumed that meant she loves what she does. Turns out she would gladly give it up if she could. Knowing that, I could see why she'd be so resentful. I don't think that's an excuse for her to expend such a large majority of her energy & emotions on her job, especially where both husband AND kids are concerned, but I can see why she feels justified in doing that. I had to put that last line in bold, because as simple a concept as it is, the emotional attachment I/we have to my/our demands is so strong & so laden with meaning that to get to the point where we're able to give up our demands is a much taller task than it sounds. In our situation I think there are two imbalances. One is that I have been very clear about what I need moving forward, and have expressed those needs for better or worse for months, while she has been unclear about what she needs, other than not to be disrespected and harassed, and for me to better understand her job situation. Besides that, I really couldn't say what else she wants from me. The second is that while we're both determined to work out these issues, it seems lately like we're actually digging in our heels even more. She was SO CLEAR about the fact that she will really never be able to change the nature of her job all that much that it has become a line in the sand much deeper even than sex. I am trying to shift my thinking about this, and also trying to build our business to the point where we can bring in enough additional income for her to get a less demanding job (and we are slowly getting there). But I'm getting more & more adamant about needing to see actual change on a weekly basis, and seem to have less patience. So you can imagine that both of us are pushing the other to the brink in more ways than one, and in some ways we're waiting for the other to break. I realize this is no way to find middle ground or to heal the marriage, and I'm sure at some point we'll BOTH break in our own ways (because we've done it before). But for now things are so heated that neither of us feels very good about our prospects. I may have lost the thread of my response to you, but it's been so long since I've had a chance to converse with you all that stuff is just gushing out! I think at the end of it all Nick...it is mind games that we play on ourselves when it comes to these types of situations. You say she is ambivilent to the job, but she maintains it to reach other goals for your future....the roadmap that the two of you will strive for once raising the kids are done, we don't start off with marriage not thinking to where we want to be 20 or 30 years down the road. On the other side of this, you feel the need to take that pressure off by building something you can be proud of for the contribution. Does she feel that she bears the greater burden? Have you asked her? Do you feel that your bear the greater burden? Have you told her that? At the end of the day, how do burdens that we feel we bear affect the security of a marriage, contribute to the stress of the marriage? How do those burdens and frustrations affect what goes on in the bedroom or how you interact with each other. At the end of the day, she isn't an attorney and you aren't the guy who just cleaned the kitchen. At the end of the day, it isn't about status quo...it's about a husband and a wife who should be free with each other. Over time, this role-reversal affects that due to the way we think and were brought up...when really it is within ourselves to see who we really are and who we are with each other, not what society, a job/career or an education turns us into.
Author NickFeek Posted July 28, 2011 Author Posted July 28, 2011 I think at the end of it all Nick...it is mind games that we play on ourselves when it comes to these types of situations. You say she is ambivilent to the job, but she maintains it to reach other goals for your future....the roadmap that the two of you will strive for once raising the kids are done, we don't start off with marriage not thinking to where we want to be 20 or 30 years down the road. Very true. And the complicating factor here is starting out at 17 we had no idea what the future even meant in any real sense. What I've been trying to avoid (until I gave up last year & screwed up) is having us drift apart while we're raising the kids. Studies show that a couple doesn't just bounce back from that kind of drift, that more often than not the quality of the relationship after the kids leave is about the same, and reconnecting by then can be even harder. I DO see the value of what she's trying to build, I just don't want her to sacrifice her and OUR quality of life as much as she has been. On the other side of this, you feel the need to take that pressure off by building something you can be proud of for the contribution. Does she feel that she bears the greater burden? Have you asked her? Do you feel that your bear the greater burden? Have you told her that? At the end of the day, how do burdens that we feel we bear affect the security of a marriage, contribute to the stress of the marriage? How do those burdens and frustrations affect what goes on in the bedroom or how you interact with each other. At the end of the day, she isn't an attorney and you aren't the guy who just cleaned the kitchen. She does feel like she bears BY FAR the greater burden, and she has felt that for years. I know I don't bear it financially, but I feel like I have more than made up for that in taking care of all the details of our life, not to mention the kids. And I also know that we need BOTH of our incomes to maintain what we have now & build for the future. Yet in all this I STILL feel inadequate. I STILL feel like I've let her down by not being the primary breadwinner. The main ways this impacts us regarding intimacy is I feel less control & power. Her levels of stress & resentment prevent her from being "in the mood" much at all. Even when we do get together, it takes (to my mind) an inordinate amount of time for her to ease into even kissing. At the end of the day, it isn't about status quo...it's about a husband and a wife who should be free with each other. Over time, this role-reversal affects that due to the way we think and were brought up...when really it is within ourselves to see who we really are and who we are with each other, not what society, a job/career or an education turns us into. No question we are NOT, and possibly have never really been, free with each other. I've always had much greater capacity to be flexible & free & unself-conscious. I'm sure our semi-role reversals affect this, but considering we've had these issues since before we made much money or had any careers, that does not explain all of it. I think what's happening now is the following: On her side she is realizing she does not want to be overburdened anymore, and is doing what she can to assert herself by saying that if she DOES have to continue to work like this she should at least be respected & not be badgered. I totally agree with her empowerment, but if it comes at the expense of any kind of compromise then we have a big problem - which is where things stand on this issue now. On my side I realized that I do not want to sacrifice my autonomy & personal needs out of a sense of deference or inferiority to the choices she's made in her career & life. I handled that realization extremely poorly last year, and much better this year. The bottom line is she is most likely not ready to hear me out on this, and while I know she is still processing my betrayal & I need to be patient, I also know I need some assurance that we are working towards a better balance & compromise on all fronts. It's a rough situation that does not seem to be getting easier quite yet.
soserious1 Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) Nick, Your wife is spinning emotionally because she's been placed in a double bind here. She's thinking she needs to keep bringing in the money at the same level but she also needs to be home more, to cook, clean & grocery shop as well as figuring out a way to become a porn star in the bed or you will walk away..or worse you'll stay, cheat on her again & rag on her for her inadequacies. The only way she can do all of this is to cut down on her sleep hours, maybe if she sleeps only 5 hrs at nite she can care more directly for the kids,do more at home & give you the hot sex you crave.. in return she gets what? the chance to get up again & do it all over again and again IMHO, most people respond to double binds by jumping ship, if I was faced with being in the position your wife is in, I'd be really sad about it but I'd throw in the towel & give you as civil a divorce as I could manage. "She does feel like she bears BY FAR the greater burden, and she has felt that for years. I know I don't bear it financially, but I feel like I have more than made up for that in taking care of all the details of our life, not to mention the kids. And I also know that we need BOTH of our incomes to maintain what we have now & build for the future. Yet in all this I STILL feel inadequate. I STILL feel like I've let her down by not being the primary breadwinner. ' Edited July 28, 2011 by soserious1
Author NickFeek Posted July 28, 2011 Author Posted July 28, 2011 Nick, Your wife is spinning emotionally because she's been placed in a double bind here. She's thinking she needs to keep bringing in the money at the same level but she also needs to be home more, to cook, clean & grocery shop as well as figuring out a way to become a porn star in the bed or you will walk away..or worse you'll stay, cheat on her again & rag on her for her inadequacies. The only way she can do all of this is to cut down on her sleep hours, maybe if she sleeps only 5 hrs at nite she can care more directly for the kids,do more at home & give you the hot sex you crave.. in return she gets what? the chance to get up again & do it all over again and again IMHO, most people respond to double binds by jumping ship, if I was faced with being in the position your wife is in, I'd be really sad about it but I'd throw in the towel & give you as civil a divorce as I could manage. "She does feel like she bears BY FAR the greater burden, and she has felt that for years. I know I don't bear it financially, but I feel like I have more than made up for that in taking care of all the details of our life, not to mention the kids. And I also know that we need BOTH of our incomes to maintain what we have now & build for the future. Yet in all this I STILL feel inadequate. I STILL feel like I've let her down by not being the primary breadwinner. ' I understand what you're saying, and I think you're dead on as far as how my wife sees it. I can tell from the mounting pressure within her that she feels like she has no space in her own life, and that everything is a subject of criticism. Looking at it that way, I'd want to jump ship too. And if in the end a separation is the best she can do, I'll accept it. The problem, though - and one that was so clearly illustrated by our butting heads after last week's session - is that she's thinking about this in a very narrow way. Where I disagree with you (and her) is that her ONLY options (if she's staying) are to either A. continue to give as much as she's giving to non-work things; or B. cut down her sleep hours. I admit I have never experienced the level & consistency of workload that she has. But other people in her office & profession have. And while some are as workaholic as she is, others have managed to balance things MUCH better. She is a slave to three damaging & debilitating (IMHO) notions: 1. That there is no such thing as "no" when it comes to work - whether that means scheduling a meeting, delegating, taking a day off, i.e. anything that would give her more control over her own job; 2. It's easier AND more morally right to say "no" to family and her own needs than it is to "disappoint" her boss; and 3. Fate is what it is, and the best we can do is accept how things are right now & suffer through them if need be. As to 1., she knows and has admitted that she could be better at all of this, and it's only recently that she's started to say there's NO WAY she can reduce her hours under any circumstances. As to 2., that's her choice, but I still fail to see how our family benefits in the aggregate from her contribution. I.E. the extra money does not make up for her extra absence. As to 3., this is antithetical to everything I believe about life. She has expressed a deep interest in becoming a teacher, or doing something with children. I'd love for her to have this opportunity. I have said that I would get a THIRD job (or at least hunt for a better paying job) if it meant she could change professions. And since she's now clearly stated she is ambivalent about her current career, I know deep down this is something she wants. I've seen friends do it, both out of desire & necessity, and in every case they've ended up happier & more fulfilled. I've also told her that our family would still live well AND be happier if we downgraded our lifestyle. She refuses to consider any of this. SO it seems my new task is to accept her beliefs and how those beliefs shape her daily/weekly life, and find other more constructive ways to bring us closer together as a couple and as a family. I'm doing the best I can there, but her lack of give & compromise throughout the last several years has just beaten me down. One last thing. If I thought (as I did until last week) that she loved her career & had no desire to leave her job, I'd be much more willing to accept her beliefs and try to work "within the system", so to speak. But knowing now that she would leave if she could, I'm having a hard time understanding why I should accept things as they are. It's not just that I'm unhappy, or that the kids miss her. It's that SHE'S unhappy. Where's the sense in that?
soserious1 Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 Nick, after following this thread for months,the conclusion I've come to is that you and your wife are basically saying a very long & very painful goodbye to each other. A goodbye that if you think about it carefully, actually began on your honeymoon when she was unable to consummate your marriage, the two of you have been treading water for a very long time. Sometimes, much as we love a person, we cannot sustain a relationship with them for the duration, IMHO this is such a case, your baseline needs are too different, your personal habits, ways of interacting are too deeply entrenched.
Author NickFeek Posted July 28, 2011 Author Posted July 28, 2011 Nick, after following this thread for months,the conclusion I've come to is that you and your wife are basically saying a very long & very painful goodbye to each other. A goodbye that if you think about it carefully, actually began on your honeymoon when she was unable to consummate your marriage, the two of you have been treading water for a very long time. Sometimes, much as we love a person, we cannot sustain a relationship with them for the duration, IMHO this is such a case, your baseline needs are too different, your personal habits, ways of interacting are too deeply entrenched. The only reason this upsets me is because it has the ring of truth. I'm not sure I'm ready to concede this just yet, but I've been prepared for this for quite a long time. No question we both deeply love each other, and also like & respect each other. This process now is for us to see if we can turn all of that (and the healing that has to happen) into something compatible & workable. But as I said, I'm prepared for whatever the best answer is.
2sunny Posted July 28, 2011 Posted July 28, 2011 Where's the sense in that? the only "sense" in that is that she doesn't have a clue as to how she feels about anything. she may very well think she likes her job - or not... but she may not be in tune to how she feels at all. how can she be expected to "know" when she seriously "doesn't know" - and since she may not know - things won't change until she figures out what she "needs to know" when she finally may realize what she needs to know - she may realize that she CAN do something else to DO something about it = in order to get a different result from what she's used to. but until she realizes what she doesn't know - you can't make her see what she doesn't intend to look at. it's hard to explain that concept in writing... but it's kind of the same as "how do you know you have been sleeping until you wake up" you just can't know. she may not realize she's miserable. being on her own to "think" and "process" some things in her life and choices SHE is making - may actually help her to understand what she doesn't yet know. when we are able to sit in silence - is usually when we see what we never knew. the silence shows us what we didn't understand before. she doesn't have that silent time to figure out what may or may not make her happy or unhappy. most people get this clarity for themselves by daily meditation, walking, exercise or an artistic outlet etc... just my own thoughts and experience...
trippi1432 Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 Nick...I apologize..I lost my post to you...will post tomorrow...lots to ponder.
Lexygirl Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) Nick, I responded once early on in your thread and have been reading as this thread progresses but tonight something hit me about your wife... call it intuition, or just putting 2 and 2 together but this is what I 'feel' might be going on with her... and forgive me if this has been addressed and I missed it... Is it possible that she suffered some kind of abuse as a child? Her aversion to sex and intimacy in general is kind of disturbing to say the least PLUS... she is obviously 'running' from something by being a workaholic... Also, I 'feel' that she has a strong need for validation (possibly due to neglect early on)and her work may just be filling that need for her. Solution? Possibly get her to go to a therapist (IC) to get this all out AND give her as much validation as you can for things regarding home life and your relationship. I also agree with 2Sunny that she needs some 'quiet time' to really think and just look inside. However, if she lets herself stop, she may just have to 'feel' and that may be very painful. Not sure if I'm on the mark here but workaholics sometimes are running from things just as alcoholics or drug addicts, sex addicts etc. I feel bad for you and her and your kids. I hope you can work this all out. TC Edited July 29, 2011 by Lexygirl
Lexygirl Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 While almost everything you say is true to some degree, I'd like to point out that it's extremely common for the therapy process to affect people in this way. We are opening new & old wounds, sometimes too rapidly for us to handle, and that is sending us into crazy unpredictable moods. But it has to be done for us to bleed out all the residual resentments/angers/etc. Despite how it looks & feels, that is what's working, and for her to be thrown into a deep state of despair seems not out of the ordinary. Ok... WOW ... SOOOOOOOO TRUE ! Nick, since my last post there a couple hours ago, I sat down and really read through many pages of your thread and I am in total awe of how insightful you are ! In fact at times I've had tears in my eyes seeing how commited you are to your wife and marriage and how you seem to instinctively know what to do or not do at times. I can see it's your deep love for her that keeps you going and that is incredible. I can also see that you have evolved in a very short time into someone who also realizes that your needs are just important as her's. That's huge. What I'm also seeing is that even though she is resisting facing painful things, she is also open to slowly working on things. That is also huge. It may not be moving as fast as some ppl think is adequate but you know what? When you think about the fact that things have been 'stuck' in a certain way for 25 years, you have to know that it is going to be a long process to change. Change can come in many ways and you have the amazing insight to see even the small positive changes for what they are. Good for you ! I think you two are on the right track. She does need to face painful things and well it seems like you do too but don't we all? It's just a matter of whether you two can do it together and be patient with one another along the way. If the ultimate answer is that you need to be apart for a while in order to work through things, well so be it but just know that you have really tried and it's way more than alot of ppl would do these days. I'm not sure if you have visited the marriage builders website and I have to admit I haven't had a ton of time to read all through it but I know one things that is suggested is to spend 15 hours of quality time together just doing things you both enjoy. This is so important. Perhaps it's time you two did some fun things together as well as work on your issues in counselling. I know her work doesn't allow this much time so maybe even 10.. but I think that you two would benefit from making specific time together.... It's funny because even my family doc had suggested this for my husband and I and we are starting to implement that this week.... Not sure if this will help us but that's another story lol. TC
Author NickFeek Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 the only "sense" in that is that she doesn't have a clue as to how she feels about anything. she may very well think she likes her job - or not... but she may not be in tune to how she feels at all. how can she be expected to "know" when she seriously "doesn't know" - and since she may not know - things won't change until she figures out what she "needs to know" when she finally may realize what she needs to know - she may realize that she CAN do something else to DO something about it = in order to get a different result from what she's used to. but until she realizes what she doesn't know - you can't make her see what she doesn't intend to look at. it's hard to explain that concept in writing... but it's kind of the same as "how do you know you have been sleeping until you wake up" you just can't know. she may not realize she's miserable. being on her own to "think" and "process" some things in her life and choices SHE is making - may actually help her to understand what she doesn't yet know. when we are able to sit in silence - is usually when we see what we never knew. the silence shows us what we didn't understand before. she doesn't have that silent time to figure out what may or may not make her happy or unhappy. most people get this clarity for themselves by daily meditation, walking, exercise or an artistic outlet etc... just my own thoughts and experience... I couldn't agree more. And I do get what you're saying. This is something Eckhart Tolle talks a lot about. I've been in this space myself enough to know what works for me, if not enough to get out from under ALL of what doesn't work. It's a work in progress. For her, I think she's actually afraid of that quiet space, and so does everything she can to run from it. And when things are quieter than normal - for example this whole week our older kids are staying with cousins, so we just have the little guy - she is extremely despondent, sleepless, anxious, because she can't "tune out the silence" the way she normally works so hard to do. We'll see how things go at this afternoon's session. I can tell you that one thing I will reiterate and elaborate on is what I said to my W last night, which is that Monday night was really troubling and it made the rest of the week horrible. I'm going to make a point of saying her stance & emotional responses make me feel like I'm boxed into having nothing to fight for and no recourse for change, which just makes me want to leave.
Author NickFeek Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 Nick...I apologize..I lost my post to you...will post tomorrow...lots to ponder. No worries. Thanks for checking in. Yes, definitely lots to ponder!
Author NickFeek Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 Nick, I responded once early on in your thread and have been reading as this thread progresses but tonight something hit me about your wife... call it intuition, or just putting 2 and 2 together but this is what I 'feel' might be going on with her... and forgive me if this has been addressed and I missed it... Is it possible that she suffered some kind of abuse as a child? Her aversion to sex and intimacy in general is kind of disturbing to say the least PLUS... she is obviously 'running' from something by being a workaholic... Also, I 'feel' that she has a strong need for validation (possibly due to neglect early on)and her work may just be filling that need for her. Solution? Possibly get her to go to a therapist (IC) to get this all out AND give her as much validation as you can for things regarding home life and your relationship. I also agree with 2Sunny that she needs some 'quiet time' to really think and just look inside. However, if she lets herself stop, she may just have to 'feel' and that may be very painful. Not sure if I'm on the mark here but workaholics sometimes are running from things just as alcoholics or drug addicts, sex addicts etc. I feel bad for you and her and your kids. I hope you can work this all out. TC Thank you so much. Sometimes it's nice just to hear someone lump all of us together like that. I've spent so much time on one side of this conflict that I'm really missing parts of what it felt like to be a couple. As for the rest of your post, yes, this has been addressed. She insists there was no abuse of any kind. I know her dad suffered depression for a bit, and her mom was certainly emotionally unstable/abusive at times, AND her general household tenor is very reserved & puritanical. But she also had a lot of love & nurturing. I have been advocating her return to IC for YEARS. I think she closed the door on that after her last brief experience, when her doctor was asking her to get into some tough feelings about me. She just decided she'd rather not go there, and the result (IMHO) has been a sublimation of all her fears & resentments about me that have colored every bit of our intimacy.
Lexygirl Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 Thank you so much. Sometimes it's nice just to hear someone lump all of us together like that. I've spent so much time on one side of this conflict that I'm really missing parts of what it felt like to be a couple. I get that. You start to think that you are the enemy and that in turn causes even more disconnect. I guess the trick is to figure out if you are both shooting for the same goal ultimately and if so, it's time to start thinking of yourselves as a team again.
Author NickFeek Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 Ok... WOW ... SOOOOOOOO TRUE ! Nick, since my last post there a couple hours ago, I sat down and really read through many pages of your thread and I am in total awe of how insightful you are ! In fact at times I've had tears in my eyes seeing how commited you are to your wife and marriage and how you seem to instinctively know what to do or not do at times. I can see it's your deep love for her that keeps you going and that is incredible. I can also see that you have evolved in a very short time into someone who also realizes that your needs are just important as her's. That's huge. What I'm also seeing is that even though she is resisting facing painful things, she is also open to slowly working on things. That is also huge. It may not be moving as fast as some ppl think is adequate but you know what? When you think about the fact that things have been 'stuck' in a certain way for 25 years, you have to know that it is going to be a long process to change. Change can come in many ways and you have the amazing insight to see even the small positive changes for what they are. Good for you ! I think you two are on the right track. She does need to face painful things and well it seems like you do too but don't we all? It's just a matter of whether you two can do it together and be patient with one another along the way. If the ultimate answer is that you need to be apart for a while in order to work through things, well so be it but just know that you have really tried and it's way more than alot of ppl would do these days. I'm not sure if you have visited the marriage builders website and I have to admit I haven't had a ton of time to read all through it but I know one things that is suggested is to spend 15 hours of quality time together just doing things you both enjoy. This is so important. Perhaps it's time you two did some fun things together as well as work on your issues in counselling. I know her work doesn't allow this much time so maybe even 10.. but I think that you two would benefit from making specific time together.... It's funny because even my family doc had suggested this for my husband and I and we are starting to implement that this week.... Not sure if this will help us but that's another story lol. TC I can't thank you enough for this post. I've always thrived on both being a devil's advocate and on taking on other devil's advocates, so it's heart warming to read something so validating. Sometimes I think all that insight and instinct is worth about a cup of coffee - AND I probably spend almost half my time succumbing to old habits & patterns and have to clean up those messes! - but I always hope it will lead to better things, and I do my best in my own way to work actively towards that. I DO love her, despite everything. And it IS that glimmer of her willingness to work that keeps me going. I'm still torn almost every day about whether it's enough, and if she's really going to be able to go the distance. But there's enough acknowledgment of our need to work on things, and enough effort & progress, that I think I'm making the right decision FOR NOW by sticking with this process. I think that's a great suggestion, and we have definitely been spending more time together than usual. Still not as much as I'd like, and certainly not enough "simple pleasures" time yet, but an improvement. What is really freezing me up right now is our recent DEFINITIVE exchange regarding her work. I'm basically feeling like she's said to me that there will be no room for compromise, so I now feel completely shut out & discounted, and also feel like I have no tools with which to expand our quality time. So to think of even 10 hours a week together seems like a pipe dream, and that just sickens me. We'll be doing another session later today, and you can bet I'll be bringing this up, but in the mean time this week has been just horrible. Her biggest emotional worries (after our extremely difficult Monday night exchange) this week have ALL been work related. Between our argument last Friday and whatever you call Monday night, I feel more disconnected to her now than I have in many weeks. And what's worse is she seems to want it that way. I really do think she needs her own space. I hope that she will reconsider her black/white notion that there is no middle ground between marriage & divorce, and think about a brief separation - for both our sakes but especially hers. But my gut tells me she would never in a million years do this. Good luck with everything you're working on with your husband. If you're up for it I'd love to hear more about your situation.
Author NickFeek Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 I get that. You start to think that you are the enemy and that in turn causes even more disconnect. I guess the trick is to figure out if you are both shooting for the same goal ultimately and if so, it's time to start thinking of yourselves as a team again. What's been hard is the bipolarity of the last several months. Discounting all the times we've been on different pages for a second, one week we are both in it together & working as a team. The next week she has a breakdown and/or relives the trauma of my betrayal and is convinced we will never be a real couple again. It makes it very hard to stay on course and to set benchmarks for improvement. For example, we made some good strides two weeks ago with our sex life, nothing groundbreaking but some genuine resetting of key issues. THEN she has her breakdown about the work issue last week, which has completely derailed our progress in the sex area (among other things). Really I'd almost rather she just decide one way or another so we can follow a single course. It's exhausting bouncing back & forth like this.
Lexygirl Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 As far as the abuse, well she seems really good at denial and ppl can stuff sexual abuse down so far that it takes something very deep to pull it out... it's called repression. She may or may not consciously know about it. I don't know her personally but I HAVE known many ppl who have been sexually abused and the signs are there including not wanting to be 'alone' with her thoughts or feelings and 'running' constantly. You are saying it's because of her resentments of you? But yet you say your sex life has been dysfunctional since day one so how can that be from resentment? I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I just hope that she will eventually be so sick of feeling boxed in and miserable that she will go to IC. If her mom was abusive then she very well may be seeking validation from her work as an 'authority figure' and she may be working her butt off to get their 'approval' at all costs. So she is using work in three ways... To get ahead financially, To seek approval from 'the man' and to run away from deep issues that she would rather not address. Wow so much involved here, Nick. Again I wish you and your family the best.
Author NickFeek Posted July 29, 2011 Author Posted July 29, 2011 As far as the abuse, well she seems really good at denial and ppl can stuff sexual abuse down so far that it takes something very deep to pull it out... it's called repression. She may or may not consciously know about it. I don't know her personally but I HAVE known many ppl who have been sexually abused and the signs are there including not wanting to be 'alone' with her thoughts or feelings and 'running' constantly. You are saying it's because of her resentments of you? But yet you say your sex life has been dysfunctional since day one so how can that be from resentment? I hope I'm wrong, I really do. I just hope that she will eventually be so sick of feeling boxed in and miserable that she will go to IC. If her mom was abusive then she very well may be seeking validation from her work as an 'authority figure' and she may be working her butt off to get their 'approval' at all costs. So she is using work in three ways... To get ahead financially, To seek approval from 'the man' and to run away from deep issues that she would rather not address. Wow so much involved here, Nick. Again I wish you and your family the best. Ha yeah it's overwhelming! I totally agree that she's using work in three ways. Until recently I would have said the fourth way was personal/career fulfillment, but she seems now to be asserting that she's ambivalent about that. Our marriage counselor has also suggested she go to IC, and her response was really bad. I think the only way she'd do that is if she had a complete breakdown, which sadly is seeming increasingly more likely. But I hope you're right that she'll just get sick of feeling this way. I believe - and have told her way more than once over the years - that she's been depressed her whole adult life. As for the sex life, it's definitely a combination of her pre-existing issues, my mistakes over the years, and her mounting resentment. And it's quite possible my recent "revelations" and promises to approach this differently may be too little too late for her. NO QUESTION there's some repression going on. It's just that no one can say for certain what's being repressed. I know her parents well, so my gut tells me from THEM it was all emotional abuse/mistreatment. If there was anything physical it would probably have been from someone else. Anyway, more later. Thanks so much for engaging me on all this.
2sunny Posted July 29, 2011 Posted July 29, 2011 she wants to be left alone = i'd leave her completely alone. she needs it. she only blames you for everything... which is a useful toll for her - because then she never has to look at her own way she participates. step away. let her process for a good long year - meanwhile allowing her to figure out what she has and hasn't been doing that works for her. what she does while you stay out of it will show you everything you need to know. continue with MC in the meantime. but stay completely away unless you have a date night... to which she may or may not find time for. it will be interesting to see what she finds from being on her own - without you "bothering her" - she will need to only look within... is she EVEN capable of that? dunno. easier to blame you. stop being her whipping post.
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