25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[2sunny]

http://whatispsychology.net/why-do-some-people-use-the-passive-aggressive-silent-treatment/

[NickFeek]

she's already showing her anger - just not outwardly like she could... like having a voice and speaking her truth.

 

she's holding it in, being silent/distant and taking it out by punishing you in ways she knows hurts you and the M most.

 

That's right. And I had said both in therapy and after that it's much easier to deal with EXPRESSED anger than UNEXPRESSED anger, because at least we know what we're dealing with.

 

Great article link! I'd like to see if I can share this with her. Some quotes that popped out:

 

the more you attempt to talk to them, the more they ignore you. In a sense, they are punishing you. By blatantly ignoring you, even to the point of talking to everyone else BUT you, this person wants to make you suffer. The silent treatment is a passive aggressive form of emotional abuse and is commonly used as a weapon by divorcing couples.

 

The best way to deal with a partner who is giving you the silent treatment is to not accept any blame for what is happening. Walk away and understand that it is their choice not to communicate. Leave them alone and wait until they decide to open the lines of communication again: in most cases the silent treatment will only be a temporary state of affairs.

 

Psychologists believe that a passive aggressive person acquires this behavioral technique though negative childhood experiences. Children who are not raised in a nurturing environment will very often use the silent treatment as a way of gaining parental attention. It is an outlet for their unresolved anger and a coping mechanism that can continue into adulthood.

 

A person who refuses to express their anger and frustration in a healthy manner inevitably ends up bottling their negative feelings up. In the long term, this can lead to all kinds of negative side effects including depression, anxiety, and low self-esteem.

[2sunny]

she could totally benefit from counseling on her own... did the MC suggest someone for her to work with?

[NickFeek]

she could totally benefit from counseling on her own... did the MC suggest someone for her to work with?

 

She said she has a few recommendations. But since my W did not respond positively, she then said just seriously consider it and she would put her in touch with someone when she's ready. Again, I will be amazed if she follows through, because the last time she tried it she got so scared off she swore shed never go back.

[2sunny]

She said she has a few recommendations. But since my W did not respond positively, she then said just seriously consider it and she would put her in touch with someone when she's ready. Again, I will be amazed if she follows through, because the last time she tried it she got so scared off she swore shed never go back.

 

well if she agreed to work on the M getting better - she better get more willing to consider what changes need to be considered that will do that.

[NickFeek]

well if she agreed to work on the M getting better - she better get more willing to consider what changes need to be considered that will do that.

 

That is a definite. My wife is still very much stuck in the stage of I am the cheater and she is the victim, so she should be getting most of the comfort and attention and I should be getting the punishment. And I'm certainly the wrong person to convince her otherwise.

 

To the doctor's credit, she is trying to nudge my wife in the direction of seeing this as a situation where we can both benefit my both agreeing to work on things. My wife is resisting even the tiniest hint of that if it also includes any respect for my needs. Again, I am not the person to argue otherwise, so it's good that the doctor is trying to level the field.

[2sunny]

well - if she's just in the marriage to punish you - she's doing a hell of a job at that!

[Tiberius]

Of course she is pissed. You want sex. She does not want sex and is okay with not wanting sex. You want her to work on that, while she does not want to.

[2sunny]

well...? i would have expected the therapist to at the very least made some suggestions to invoke change today...?

[2sunny]

Of course she is pissed. You want sex. She does not want sex and is okay with not wanting sex. You want her to work on that, while she does not want to.

 

if you read the thread - you would understand that his wife would go years and years without sex and be just peachy with that, even if it means that her husband is suffering for it - she's not willing to participate. took two years to consummate the marriage!

[NickFeek]

Hey. Sorry for the delay. For some reason I'm no longer getting email alerts about postings. I'll look into that.

 

Each week, the therapist is giving us tasks. Right now, because we are both so bad at communicating when it comes to touchy subjects, most of her tasks involve finding ways for us to talk & listen better, and in that process to come up with CONCRETE PLANS for change. We did this regarding sex, and this past week the main subjects were work and quality time.

 

Every week for the last 3-4 weeks, we have left our session so sensitive that one of us inevitably gets really pissed. This time around it was me. We were getting into the work situation, and although in the session things went smoothly, once we left I found myself badgering her about how nothing has changed re her work hours, and that in many ways ways it's gotten worse. I expected at least a conversation about ways to change that. Instead she got so ballistic that she attempted to walk away from me at least three times (we were walking from the office bldg. to the subway). I followed, because I was not going to take "no answer" for an answer - walking away is the easy way out. She then threw her work bag on the sidewalk and said, "YOU do my job!" etc. etc., loud enough for half the block to watch. I know it's a sensitive subject, and I'm sure I probably went overboard insisting on a different answer from her, but I did not expect her to get like this, and even to admit that she wanted to get violent. We then argued more, and I finally got so fed up that I walked away from her. She did not follow me. We ended up hooking up again, making up, and talking more rationally. But since then we've both been in a horribly agitated state. She's really having a hard time seeing a way forward.

 

What upset me most was not her anger or her acting out - I've certainly done that myself. And not even some of the points she made - I KNOW she could really use a break from being the primary breadwinner, and I hate that I can't give her that. No, what really upset me is the fact that of ALL the issues we are bringing up, the work issue hurts her the most. I do understand there are things I'm just not getting about how she's feeling, and I'd like to go into that more. At the same time, it's hard to open up that way knowing that nothing significant has changed.

 

The best I can say is we are sticking with this process, finding better ways to set forth plans, and coming back and working even after big fights. But at this point she's so dejected & negative about me as a person & our marriage in general that I really can't help her much more than I am.

[trippi1432]

Nick - long time posting to this thread, but have been watching....when a woman gets thrown into the "breadwinner" role, the entire relationship takes on a role reversal. The aspect of what our grandparent's and parent's taught us no longer take on the form of what was taught to us as children...where the man brought home the bacon and the wife kept the house and kids. Women in this position are caught in a cross-fire of being both bread-winner and the traditional role of wife and mother....it becomes blurred at best.

 

For me, I KNEW I had to do it all, there was no choice...it was up to me to do my job and work around the kids sick days, doctor's appointments, soccer games, teacher's conferences, come home and keep the house, do the laundry and cook dinner...all to the discouragement of a spouse who had a hard time on a fork truck all day and had been on his feet. The higher up on the totem pole and educational requirements, the more I needed my husband to participate...and the more he became resentful...drinking more, smoking more pot, gambling more.....sex was never the issue...yet his ego and self-esteem were as well as the guilt of being of a woman in a man's world of earning power and respect. I will admit I got more respect from my co-worker's than I ever did my family.

 

As a woman, every time my exH pish-poshed my contribution of his comfortable lifestyle it took on a two-fold meaning...one, that my contributions were not appreciated due to damaging his ego (his issue) and two, I was a failure at doing what women were designed to do.....nurture and be the caregiver. Men are designed to lead and be the caretaker, yet more women are put into this role and men being pushed into a role of less than comfortable...although most will not admit it because they want to appear to be the new "generational" man...okay with it all. In her defense, I would have thrown my stuff down on the sidewalk and said the same thing...."You do my job!!"...I have actually said that to my exH and I don't regret it because he never respected it much less respected me as an equal partner in the relationship.

 

Why is your job and company so important to you? Because it gives you equal billing in the relationship...I'm betting that she knows this...I'm betting that she would prefer to see you successful and as an equal partner in the relationship both financially and as a corner stone of self-respect. Did you screw that up (no pun intended)...yes, when you ventured outside of the marriage with a co-worker at that company...was it justifiable..NO...not even if you did use vise grips to pull your wife's legs apart....if it were, then she is justified in working all the hours she needs to provide a comfortable lifestyle to her family. Do you see the dynamic....you place principle on the marriage as sex...she places it on work and providing for her family. Neither of you are going to get what you want from this as long as you place priority on just what you want to gain...demands are just that...and things that can we all can walk away from.

[NickFeek]

Nick - long time posting to this thread, but have been watching....when a woman gets thrown into the "breadwinner" role, the entire relationship takes on a role reversal. The aspect of what our grandparent's and parent's taught us no longer take on the form of what was taught to us as children...where the man brought home the bacon and the wife kept the house and kids. Women in this position are caught in a cross-fire of being both bread-winner and the traditional role of wife and mother....it becomes blurred at best.

 

For me, I KNEW I had to do it all, there was no choice...it was up to me to do my job and work around the kids sick days, doctor's appointments, soccer games, teacher's conferences, come home and keep the house, do the laundry and cook dinner...all to the discouragement of a spouse who had a hard time on a fork truck all day and had been on his feet. The higher up on the totem pole and educational requirements, the more I needed my husband to participate...and the more he became resentful...drinking more, smoking more pot, gambling more.....sex was never the issue...yet his ego and self-esteem were as well as the guilt of being of a woman in a man's world of earning power and respect. I will admit I got more respect from my co-worker's than I ever did my family.

 

As a woman, every time my exH pish-poshed my contribution of his comfortable lifestyle it took on a two-fold meaning...one, that my contributions were not appreciated due to damaging his ego (his issue) and two, I was a failure at doing what women were designed to do.....nurture and be the caregiver. Men are designed to lead and be the caretaker, yet more women are put into this role and men being pushed into a role of less than comfortable...although most will not admit it because they want to appear to be the new "generational" man...okay with it all. In her defense, I would have thrown my stuff down on the sidewalk and said the same thing...."You do my job!!"...I have actually said that to my exH and I don't regret it because he never respected it much less respected me as an equal partner in the relationship.

 

Why is your job and company so important to you? Because it gives you equal billing in the relationship...I'm betting that she knows this...I'm betting that she would prefer to see you successful and as an equal partner in the relationship both financially and as a corner stone of self-respect. Did you screw that up (no pun intended)...yes, when you ventured outside of the marriage with a co-worker at that company...was it justifiable..NO...not even if you did use vise grips to pull your wife's legs apart....if it were, then she is justified in working all the hours she needs to provide a comfortable lifestyle to her family. Do you see the dynamic....you place principle on the marriage as sex...she places it on work and providing for her family. Neither of you are going to get what you want from this as long as you place priority on just what you want to gain...demands are just that...and things that can we all can walk away from.

 

This whole post is so insightful, and while our circumstances don't exactly parallel yours & your exH's, to hear more of your story has really helped to shed light on some of what's going on here.

 

We have both been aware for a long time the "mind games" (for want of a better phrase) our semi-role reversals have played on us as individuals and on the marriage, and are now picking the fruit of long held resentments & fears & feelings of failure, etc.

 

For me, I tried very hard to set aside traditional thinking, and for the most part I have done that. But there's a part of me that always feels like I've failed her because I don't make as much as she does. I try to compensate by being with the kids more & being the best father I can be, and I certainly do my share of the household duties, errands, etc. But I don't think I'll ever feel comfortable with her having to bear the greater burden. I do think my nature is not 100% traditional male, because there are many aspects of our current life I have no problem with (see the sentence before last), but I'm beholden enough to my sense of "husbandly duty" to want to do more to ease her burden - which is one of the two or three main reasons why I have a company in addition to my day job.

 

For her, she finally said point blank the other day that she is ambivalent about her job. When she's working and discussing work, she always seems to me to be so into it, so amped by it. So I just assumed that meant she loves what she does. Turns out she would gladly give it up if she could. Knowing that, I could see why she'd be so resentful. I don't think that's an excuse for her to expend such a large majority of her energy & emotions on her job, especially where both husband AND kids are concerned, but I can see why she feels justified in doing that.

 

I had to put that last line in bold, because as simple a concept as it is, the emotional attachment I/we have to my/our demands is so strong & so laden with meaning that to get to the point where we're able to give up our demands is a much taller task than it sounds. In our situation I think there are two imbalances.

 

One is that I have been very clear about what I need moving forward, and have expressed those needs for better or worse for months, while she has been unclear about what she needs, other than not to be disrespected and harassed, and for me to better understand her job situation. Besides that, I really couldn't say what else she wants from me.

 

The second is that while we're both determined to work out these issues, it seems lately like we're actually digging in our heels even more. She was SO CLEAR about the fact that she will really never be able to change the nature of her job all that much that it has become a line in the sand much deeper even than sex. I am trying to shift my thinking about this, and also trying to build our business to the point where we can bring in enough additional income for her to get a less demanding job (and we are slowly getting there). But I'm getting more & more adamant about needing to see actual change on a weekly basis, and seem to have less patience. So you can imagine that both of us are pushing the other to the brink in more ways than one, and in some ways we're waiting for the other to break.

 

I realize this is no way to find middle ground or to heal the marriage, and I'm sure at some point we'll BOTH break in our own ways (because we've done it before). But for now things are so heated that neither of us feels very good about our prospects.

 

I may have lost the thread of my response to you, but it's been so long since I've had a chance to converse with you all that stuff is just gushing out!

[psionyx]

For her, she finally said point blank the other day that she is ambivalent about her job. When she's working and discussing work, she always seems to me to be so into it, so amped by it. So I just assumed that meant she loves what she does. Turns out she would gladly give it up if she could. Knowing that, I could see why she'd be so resentful. I don't think that's an excuse for her to expend such a large majority of her energy & emotions on her job, especially where both husband AND kids are concerned, but I can see why she feels justified in doing that.

 

Is she happier at work or at home? If you can find the truthful answer to that question then some pieces of the puzzle may quickly fall into place.

[2sunny]

what is her body language telling you that her words won't say? it may be useful for you to read up on body language...

 

have you kept writing out what comes from your conversations? specifically her words... and what actions she implements that go along (or not) with her given words?

 

 

she's angry - but who is she angry at? it can't be all you... she must also be angry at herself. what is that about?

 

IF she isn't as happy at her job as you think sh is - then this may be an ideal time to consider a move, to downsize on expenses, and to work less and play more - with each other.

 

remember that thing we call LIVING? well, she may be thinking she's hardly living - but just working.

 

reduce your expenses... sell the house if you have one, or move to a cheaper area so you can earn less with less expenses.

 

the kids are still young and should adapt well at this stage...

 

you two should be considering anything to make this M work - IF she's angry about being a workhorse - start changing that up... to see if it helps.

 

if you move, you two can both find new jobs, and you moving companies might help her understand you aren't staying at THAT company in order to keep in touch with your former OW.

 

don't rule anything out, IF you intend to make this work - you won't be saying no to any new ideas that invoke change.

 

change is good!

[2sunny]

my other thought for change is regarding sex.

 

you need to learn how to make her orgasm with your fingers... by getting to her g spot. she needs a release and a reason to get interested in sex. it could help her get more connected to you if you can learn how to help her orgasm.

 

and she could get interested in giving you oral. at the very least she could be doing this with you regularly - and you doing for her as well.

 

since intercourse is contentious for her and frustrating for both of you - given her issues - new and alternative ways to reach orgasm together need to be found for both of you to reconnect.

 

start to explore OPTIONS!

[NickFeek]

Is she happier at work or at home? If you can find the truthful answer to that question then some pieces of the puzzle may quickly fall into place.

 

I can say with very little doubt after this week that despite our recent difficulties, she is happier at home. Happier with the kids at least.

[NickFeek]

what is her body language telling you that her words won't say? it may be useful for you to read up on body language...

 

have you kept writing out what comes from your conversations? specifically her words... and what actions she implements that go along (or not) with her given words?

 

she's angry - but who is she angry at? it can't be all you... she must also be angry at herself. what is that about?

 

IF she isn't as happy at her job as you think sh is - then this may be an ideal time to consider a move, to downsize on expenses, and to work less and play more - with each other.

 

remember that thing we call LIVING? well, she may be thinking she's hardly living - but just working.

 

reduce your expenses... sell the house if you have one, or move to a cheaper area so you can earn less with less expenses.

 

the kids are still young and should adapt well at this stage...

 

you two should be considering anything to make this M work - IF she's angry about being a workhorse - start changing that up... to see if it helps.

 

if you move, you two can both find new jobs, and you moving companies might help her understand you aren't staying at THAT company in order to keep in touch with your former OW.

 

don't rule anything out, IF you intend to make this work - you won't be saying no to any new ideas that invoke change.

 

change is good!

 

All great points & questions.

 

Her body language changes daily. At times she is open & affectionate - in need of comfort. Other times, she can barely look at or be near me. I think this indicates how torn she is.

 

I have kept an account of what she's saying - really what we're both saying. But things have been so volatile that it's been hard to establish any kind of "norm" for what to expect action-wise.

 

I completely agree she is angry at more than just me. The level of her anger, while completely justified considering what I've done, still seems to be out of proportion to the circumstances. She just reconnected with an old friend after several years, and found out that friend is divorcing after a 20 year marriage & two kids. This friend has also been having an affair with a married man. The circumstances of the friend's life are quite a bit worse than ours, and so I would have thought this would give her some perspective and maybe even some hope. Instead, it's quite possible that last night was the worst night she's had in months. It was a horrible, painful, lonely night, and I can't think of anything that transpired between us that would have thrust her into that state on this particular night. Unless it's just an intense welling up once again of everything she's feeling.

 

I have suggested downsizing SO MANY TIMES. She just refuses to budge on that. I can't even get far enough into the conversation to really illustrate how the kids would be fine & we'd probably all be happier & less stressed. She just will not consider it. She has always been the type of person to just accept her "fate", whatever the current circumstances are. It's frustrating to say the least, considering how many options & permutations our life could encompass.

[NickFeek]

my other thought for change is regarding sex.

 

you need to learn how to make her orgasm with your fingers... by getting to her g spot. she needs a release and a reason to get interested in sex. it could help her get more connected to you if you can learn how to help her orgasm.

 

and she could get interested in giving you oral. at the very least she could be doing this with you regularly - and you doing for her as well.

 

since intercourse is contentious for her and frustrating for both of you - given her issues - new and alternative ways to reach orgasm together need to be found for both of you to reconnect.

 

start to explore OPTIONS!

 

We talked in a bit more detail about this last week, and were getting to the point where we could almost list the things we're both comfortable with, and then all this stuff with the last session happened & it derailed us. One thing I can say for sure though is that, while she does let me touch her now & then, it's not often and she never allows it to last long enough. She does orgasm in her own way, but only when she's in complete control. I have no problem with this if she's getting pleasure from it, other than my ability to have any control in the bedroom is already so severely limited. And believe me I've tried.

[2sunny]

I have suggested downsizing SO MANY TIMES. She just refuses to budge on that. I can't even get far enough into the conversation to really illustrate how the kids would be fine & we'd probably all be happier & less stressed. She just will not consider it. She has always been the type of person to just accept her "fate", whatever the current circumstances are. It's frustrating to say the least, considering how many options & permutations our life could encompass.

 

since her closed mind is showing evidence of not being helpful - you may want to suggest it again. it could relieve major stress for her. having a big house isn't the end all- be all. i learned that when we sold our gigantic house in the divorce. it dragged us down big time and was totally unnecessary, except my exH loved it for bragging and his ego boost.

 

the other points you express - seem to weigh heavy on YOU being way too concerned about mainly her. i think you think of her/how she's feeling more than she thinks of her/how she's feeling.

 

start thinking a bit of yourself - and leave her with her own negative words/thoughts.

 

start focusing on growing YOUR positive thoughts/feelings/actions bigger! stay away from anything negative. it's amazing when one does this - how letting go of negativity CAN change a life and the way of living.

 

for me, in daily living, i move away from negative interactions with ease. it never grows bigger on my end... for negativity to grow - you must feed it more energy... don't participate that way with her... even with your thoughts. IF the negative THOUGHT is mine - i immediately go help out a complete stranger or someone else (getting out of self) - it helps to redirect the energy path and stay in the positive light.

 

i highly recommend it. in fact - my daily goal is to grow as much POSITIVE energy with interactions as possible. i keep trying to get you to step into this here - but there are always these reasons why you aren't making it work. so, at this point i'm just asking you to shut the door on all the negative energy swirling around you. even in thought.

 

she is one mixed up woman... and you continue to be at the total mercy of her ever changing moods, tempo and demands. that's just back wards. IF that's what she chooses for herself - let her have it... but for me? i wouldn't be participating in her swings. too unpredictable with no action to get to a positive energy path.

 

she needs serious help with all her negative emotions and especially the anger. why do you think you need to be her outlet and target for ll that negativity? no love is worth that. in fact, that's NOT loving behavior.

 

 

time may be there for you two - but i continue to fail to see why you two think this is working for you. there's nothing that's changed since you came here in April... except that she seems to be MORE in charge than she was back then. you allow way too much from her - and it's showing by the negative in her growing bigger... now it's completely affecting you and you seem to be at the mercy of her more than ever.

 

tell her, sell the house. you would probably sell it if you divorce anyway. it's only a house. live separately for a while if need be... see how that goes. a house shouldn't drag you two down... she uses it as her excuse to work more and avoid you more too.

 

her excuses will come to light if you start downsizing everything. buying more stuff isn't what makes people truly happy. it's a cover up for what is real.

 

the more "stuff" i got rid of - the more free i felt. holding on to objects is an illusion that we may have some value - show something for hard work... it's an illusion, at best.

[2sunny]

We talked in a bit more detail about this last week, and were getting to the point where we could almost list the things we're both comfortable with, and then all this stuff with the last session happened & it derailed us. One thing I can say for sure though is that, while she does let me touch her now & then, it's not often and she never allows it to last long enough. She does orgasm in her own way, but only when she's in complete control. I have no problem with this if she's getting pleasure from it, other than my ability to have any control in the bedroom is already so severely limited. And believe me I've tried.

 

it's always talk and NO action...

 

nick, she's always in complete control of EVERYTHING... including how YOU feel, and what you do - and don't do. YOU have put yourself at her mercy in every way, shape and form...

 

you allow it.

 

read that book again co dependent no more. it should speak to you...

 

but nothing changes with no action! and that has been the issue this whole time. there is no action in changing things with you two. talk, lots of talk - gets zero change.

[NickFeek]

since her closed mind is showing evidence of not being helpful - you may want to suggest it again. it could relieve major stress for her. having a big house isn't the end all- be all. i learned that when we sold our gigantic house in the divorce. it dragged us down big time and was totally unnecessary, except my exH loved it for bragging and his ego boost.

 

the other points you express - seem to weigh heavy on YOU being way too concerned about mainly her. i think you think of her/how she's feeling more than she thinks of her/how she's feeling.

 

start thinking a bit of yourself - and leave her with her own negative words/thoughts.

 

start focusing on growing YOUR positive thoughts/feelings/actions bigger! stay away from anything negative. it's amazing when one does this - how letting go of negativity CAN change a life and the way of living.

 

for me, in daily living, i move away from negative interactions with ease. it never grows bigger on my end... for negativity to grow - you must feed it more energy... don't participate that way with her... even with your thoughts. IF the negative THOUGHT is mine - i immediately go help out a complete stranger or someone else (getting out of self) - it helps to redirect the energy path and stay in the positive light.

 

i highly recommend it. in fact - my daily goal is to grow as much POSITIVE energy with interactions as possible. i keep trying to get you to step into this here - but there are always these reasons why you aren't making it work. so, at this point i'm just asking you to shut the door on all the negative energy swirling around you. even in thought.

 

she is one mixed up woman... and you continue to be at the total mercy of her ever changing moods, tempo and demands. that's just back wards. IF that's what she chooses for herself - let her have it... but for me? i wouldn't be participating in her swings. too unpredictable with no action to get to a positive energy path.

 

she needs serious help with all her negative emotions and especially the anger. why do you think you need to be her outlet and target for ll that negativity? no love is worth that. in fact, that's NOT loving behavior.

 

 

time may be there for you two - but i continue to fail to see why you two think this is working for you. there's nothing that's changed since you came here in April... except that she seems to be MORE in charge than she was back then. you allow way too much from her - and it's showing by the negative in her growing bigger... now it's completely affecting you and you seem to be at the mercy of her more than ever.

 

tell her, sell the house. you would probably sell it if you divorce anyway. it's only a house. live separately for a while if need be... see how that goes. a house shouldn't drag you two down... she uses it as her excuse to work more and avoid you more too.

 

her excuses will come to light if you start downsizing everything. buying more stuff isn't what makes people truly happy. it's a cover up for what is real.

 

the more "stuff" i got rid of - the more free i felt. holding on to objects is an illusion that we may have some value - show something for hard work... it's an illusion, at best.

 

I couldn't agree more about reducing our overhead. We have never lived in one place longer than 4 years, so we're used to moving. I don't see why we couldn't do the same thing now. For some reason, she has it in her head that her "reward" for working so hard is to keep upgrading to bigger & better. Now while I would be all on board with this if we were both happy with each other & in our careers, it makes no sense to me in our context. I WILL keep bringing this up. Maybe if she gets desperate enough to end her suffering, she'll finally open her mind to the option.

 

As for the emotional part, I DO fall prey to being way too influenced by her moods. Sometimes I can override this & find my inner peace. Other times I'm feeling too vulnerable to fight it and end up being swept out by the undertow. Last night was both. The first part of the night was horrendous. She was sleepless & crying, shunning me. Finally we talked - she said what she needed to say, and as I listened I realized she was repeating a pattern of coping (or non-coping) that she's done countless times over the years. So I started firmly but gently tossing in ideas that purposely counteracted the pattern. The more I did this, the less I felt beholden to her emotional state.

 

The problem I have is being open & available to help & support without becoming completely tied to her moods. I've never been good at separating those things, and that's why that book made so much sense to me. I'm still struggling with it. And it's only made worse by the volatility of her mental state swings (going far beyond just "mood"). She'll go from constructive & engaged to completely shut down & hopeless (where she is now). She has said more than once that she may just need to get away from me for a while to figure out what means anything to her anymore - and if the good can outweigh the bad. The thing is, her idea of getting away is kicking me out, and I have no intention of leaving the kids.

 

While almost everything you say is true to some degree, I'd like to point out that it's extremely common for the therapy process to affect people in this way. We are opening new & old wounds, sometimes too rapidly for us to handle, and that is sending us into crazy unpredictable moods. But it has to be done for us to bleed out all the residual resentments/angers/etc. Despite how it looks & feels, that is what's working, and for her to be thrown into a deep state of despair seems not out of the ordinary.

 

The one thing that REALLY gets me is when she is actually FIGHTING TO STAY DOWN instead of looking for a way out of that hole. I joke with her that it's her fatalistic Irish Catholic streak that tells her there's no way to change a bad situation, that her only option is to suffer through it. But in this case it's no joke. She insisted last night over & over (and so many other days & nights the last 8 months) that it's ALL bad and there's no way to change that. So I finally just said to her GO - and maybe her absence from me would reawaken her to the things she'd miss, the things worth sticking around for. If not, she can stay gone & be happy with that (though I don't think her running from this is going to make her happy or nearly as at peace as she believes). But my gut tells me she's going to realize she's taken a TONNNN of things for granted these last 25 years.

[NickFeek]

it's always talk and NO action...

 

nick, she's always in complete control of EVERYTHING... including how YOU feel, and what you do - and don't do. YOU have put yourself at her mercy in every way, shape and form...

 

you allow it.

 

read that book again co dependent no more. it should speak to you...

 

but nothing changes with no action! and that has been the issue this whole time. there is no action in changing things with you two. talk, lots of talk - gets zero change.

 

In our more recent sexual encounters, she's actually made a point of ceding more control to me. I can tell she's uncomfortable with it, but the fact she's willing to understand the problem & give it a shot is a good thing.

 

As for the talk, again, one of our MAJOR problems in the past has been to plow forward with no plan of action, which has always resulted in botched attempts & things basically petering out. The KIND of talk we're doing now is concrete, specific, and will lay the groundwork for us to stop repeating past mistakes, and to much better understand what we're both comfortable with & what we need, and where the REAL middle ground is, and not some vague perceived notion shaped by fears, resentments & miscommunication.

[2sunny]

i spent the day last week with an old friend - who's been married more than 30 years.

 

she explained to me how great the M is now compared to 5 years ago.

 

when they did counseling... the therapist had them FINISH the arguments that started through the years that were left without a solution.

 

talking ALL the way THROUGH these disagreements brought them to a new place - new agreements between them both - and new results which were all happy.

 

they both owned how they participated - adjusted what actions they took within the M - and accepted new roles.

 

the outcome? a new way of living and acceptance.

 

it was truly amazing to listen to what their new life together looks like.

 

THAT is what change looks like... implementing new actions will bring new results.

 

 

IF your W wants to sit and stew in negativity and blaming others/outside influences - then allow her to do that = alone.

 

there's no need to have to put up with someone always dumping $hit all over you - and remember - YOU allow it. YOU seem to take it on like a champ. stop doing that.

 

have her move if need be. at the very least to get away from her negativity for a while.

 

if she insists on keeping the house - and saying that work drags her down - then she finds her "things" more important than your marriage.

[NickFeek]

i spent the day last week with an old friend - who's been married more than 30 years.

 

she explained to me how great the M is now compared to 5 years ago.

 

when they did counseling... the therapist had them FINISH the arguments that started through the years that were left without a solution.

 

talking ALL the way THROUGH these disagreements brought them to a new place - new agreements between them both - and new results which were all happy.

 

they both owned how they participated - adjusted what actions they took within the M - and accepted new roles.

 

the outcome? a new way of living and acceptance.

 

it was truly amazing to listen to what their new life together looks like.

 

THAT is what change looks like... implementing new actions will bring new results.

 

Wow, that's a great approach and kind of an eye-opener. Our therapist is still discovering what our arguments are, and all the details - how we've argued up to now; why we've failed to resolve them; what our exact positions are; history both before & during our relationship; etc. I'm going to suggest this on Friday.

 

IF your W wants to sit and stew in negativity and blaming others/outside influences - then allow her to do that = alone.

 

there's no need to have to put up with someone always dumping $hit all over you - and remember - YOU allow it. YOU seem to take it on like a champ. stop doing that.

 

have her move if need be. at the very least to get away from her negativity for a while.

 

The bold above is basically what I said to her last night. I was careful to say I completely understand why she'd be negative & hurt & angry, but that the only way we'll move on AND CERTAINLY the only way she'll find peace is to allow the negative to coexist with the positive. I noticed while we were talking/arguing last night that she is extremely good at turning everything I say into a negative - so I pointed that out. And it actually stopped her in her tracks.

 

if she insists on keeping the house - and saying that work drags her down - then she finds her "things" more important than your marriage.

 

I don't have an argument for this. I think right now what she wants most is peace of mind, and for her that means not feeling the pressures I keep putting on her to change her job situation, change how things are at home, change our intimacies. She is overwhelmed. And to be fair I have been badgering her off & on for years. Not that I didn't have some extremely valid points & reasons for complaining, but no one would want to put up with constant criticism. So I've backed off from that in recent months, and even that is still too much for her. She must really just want to be left alone.

 

For my part, I'm doing all I can to get a better sense of what a typical work day is like for her, so I can integrate that into my opinions & beliefs about how much actual flexibility she does have. And I'm changing things like having our sitter come earlier so she can leave for work earlier & thus come home earlier. If none of this is enough to get her to modify her work week, then I've done all I can. And if in the end her stubbornness & pride are what make her leave me, she is setting up an even more tragic future for herself.