Author NickFeek Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 this is what i find absolutely unacceptable. you want to have a discussion with your wife... and she knows this - yet she doesn't give you the time of day to accomplish a conversation. and so you SETTLE for nothing from her - for more days than you would like. she's purposefully hurtful. that's not loving behavior at all. This is two things going on. One is I'm conditioned to expect this kind of avoidance, so I do not insist the way I should. I own that. Two, and more importantly, she is coming to a decision. I can tell based on what she HAS said. And because it's so hard for her, I'm giving her the time to really make up her mind, so that it's definitive & we don't have to keep going through this. and so then you relent to only asking for her to read before Friday? nothing like putting any of your expectations of decency aside for her benefit/consideration - knowing full well she is $hitting all over you. she holds all the power - EVEN for a simple conversation! that's absurd Nick!!! YOU TWO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MARRIED! IF she gave her job as much time and energy as she gives her marriage - SHE'D have been fired a long time ago. i can't understand why you find this even slightly adequate. maybe in your past life - you were trained well to accept so little attention that this is your sense of "normal?" i can't imagine why a human would think this is anything remotely close to a relationship - much less a marriage. IF she's planning to give you nothing - she should at least be willing to allow you to find what you're needing outside of being with her inadequate way she participates. Well the sick thing is everything with her is baby steps, and I'm used to that. So me asking her to read a book is ... let's say if she does read it all by tomorrow I'll be amazed. She may hold a lot of the power when it comes to how we interact or converse, but she realizes I hold the power in terms of how this relationship is going to be restructured. THAT'S what's got her so hung up. She now knows she can't just remain frozen/silent/avoiding for the indefinite future, and can't just be happy with going back to the way things were. THIS is the decision she's trying to come to: Is it worth it for her to stay in the marriage & have to put more effort in - the same effort as she would at work, let's say - or would she rather not have to do that. She has said she's on the fence. And since I've been on that fence - and in many ways I'm still on it - I can't begrudge her that. I'm extremely curious to hear what she has to say tomorrow. I'm going to request that she start the convo this week, and relate it back to why she was so upset last week, as well as what she had planned to say to me about the book. Now there's still tonight, so we could talk before then. But it's so close now I honestly don't care if we wait a day. I think we've seen from my behavior that I can no longer accept such paltry attention or regard. That's why I acted out - not good but an absolute cause & effect relation. And that's why I'm sticking to my guns. If she needs more of her typical "quiet time" to let this sink in, I can wait a week. And as for your last paragraph, one thing I will say to her tomorrow is a repeat of my no-cheating pledge, making sure she understands it's conditional upon her being fully engaged in our marriage. I won't put it that way, but she will understand in no uncertain terms I can't be satisfied with what she calls a relationship anymore.
marqueemoon4 Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Agreed. Was ignoring that one! i just googled that term.. its says 9-12yr olds. i trust he made a mistake by saying that. now if he was talking about 20-24yr olds, he couldn't be more right.
Author NickFeek Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 i just googled that term.. its says 9-12yr olds. i trust he made a mistake by saying that. now if he was talking about 20-24yr olds, he couldn't be more right. This has to rank as the worst tangent on this thread!
GorillaTheater Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 And as for your last paragraph, one thing I will say to her tomorrow is a repeat of my no-cheating pledge, making sure she understands it's conditional upon her being fully engaged in our marriage. I won't put it that way, but she will understand in no uncertain terms I can't be satisfied with what she calls a relationship anymore. I haven't followed your story closely, so I may be taking this out of context, but I'm not too thrilled with this as I understand it. Your not cheating on your wife in the future is conditioned on her actions or lack thereof? Really? I have no issue with you ending your marriage if that's the decision you come to after reasonable reflection; that's entirely your business. But I can't give anyone a pass for inflicting emotional abuse on a spouse (which having an affair is, in spades). You've been down this route before; are you so comfortable with the idea of cheating that it remains a continuing option? Is there nothing you learned that would stop you from going this route again? Are you really that desperate for female validation that you're willing to hurt others to get it? Integrity and honor, Nick. Please tell me I'm misreading this.
Author NickFeek Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 I haven't followed your story closely, so I may be taking this out of context, but I'm not too thrilled with this as I understand it. Your not cheating on your wife in the future is conditioned on her actions or lack thereof? Really? I have no issue with you ending your marriage if that's the decision you come to after reasonable reflection; that's entirely your business. But I can't give anyone a pass for inflicting emotional abuse on a spouse (which having an affair is, in spades). You've been down this route before; are you so comfortable with the idea of cheating that it remains a continuing option? Is there nothing you learned that would stop you from going this route again? Are you really that desperate for female validation that you're willing to hurt others to get it? Integrity and honor, Nick. Please tell me I'm misreading this. Thanks for weighing. Yes, you're misreading it - or more accurately I wasn't clear enough, and I'm glad I have the chance to clarify. What I meant to say - and what I have said to my wife several times - is that I will never cheat on her again. (The first time was painful enough for everyone. I just could not put her or me through that again.) AND I can say this for sure because I will not allow our past situation to be recreated. So if for some reason she's more comfortable doing that, or we are unable to build a better relationship, we will need to come to another agreement. Either end the marriage, separate, or find some kind of alternative setup. In any of those cases what we do will all be on the up & up. No more lying/cheating/sneaking.
GorillaTheater Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Thanks for weighing. Yes, you're misreading it - or more accurately I wasn't clear enough, and I'm glad I have the chance to clarify. What I meant to say - and what I have said to my wife several times - is that I will never cheat on her again. (The first time was painful enough for everyone. I just could not put her or me through that again.) AND I can say this for sure because I will not allow our past situation to be recreated. So if for some reason she's more comfortable doing that, or we are unable to build a better relationship, we will need to come to another agreement. Either end the marriage, separate, or find some kind of alternative setup. In any of those cases what we do will all be on the up & up. No more lying/cheating/sneaking. That makes perfect sense, and thanks for setting me straight. Something was telling me that's not what you meant to say, but it nevertheless pushed one of my buttons. Yes, absolutely, lay all the cards on the table with your wife. No secret agendas, no covert contracts.
KathyM Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 My wife and I have been together for 25 years (married for 19). We are both 42, so that should tell you how young we were when we got together. I love and respect her, and her me. We are compatible in almost every way but two. We've recently hit on rocky times. It's always been rocky, but moreso since our third kid was born. I am extremely reluctant to break up the marriage, because I love my kids more than anything & do not want to cause them grief & pain. But I'm at my wits end & am not sure I see the future as brighter. The two ways we're not compatible are in career/time, and sex. The first - we never see each other. She works close to 60 hours a week. I have a more normal job, and end up doing most of the housework & childcare. No matter how much I plead with her to try to balance her work/kid/marriage time better, things only seem to get worse. The second - we have sex MAYBE 6 times a year. It's been that way for over a decade. Our sex is rote & unvaried, and after soooo long she is still so uncomfortable with intercourse and anything beyond standard touching & missionary that I just feel hopeless about it all. She pretty much refuses to do any kind of counseling. And though we talk often, it never seems to lead to any significant change. Now I'm no saint. I've done my best to be a good husband & father, but my frustration & anger often get the better of me (with her not so much the kids). She can validly complain about the way I've treated her in the past (not as much now). There are issues on both sides. The thing that crushes me is that they are recurring issues that never seem to get resolved. I could go on, but I think I need a little feedback & guidance first. Please help! Thanks. You really do need marriage counseling. If she won't go with you, go yourself. They will have some good advice and guide you to make a decision on what to do and how you can improve a marriage just from your own perspective. Maybe when your wife sees the benefits counseling has done for you, it will encourage her to participate. She really needs to cut the work hours. That's killing your marriage. A counselor will help both of you to establish your priorities and tailor your life to coincide with your priorities. They'll also help with the sexual incapatability aspect of your marriage, and whatever other issues you are having. Just make sure it's a good counselor, or you will be wasting your time. Sometimes it takes trying a few different counselors before you find one that is right for you.
Author NickFeek Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 You really do need marriage counseling. If she won't go with you, go yourself. They will have some good advice and guide you to make a decision on what to do and how you can improve a marriage just from your own perspective. Maybe when your wife sees the benefits counseling has done for you, it will encourage her to participate. She really needs to cut the work hours. That's killing your marriage. A counselor will help both of you to establish your priorities and tailor your life to coincide with your priorities. They'll also help with the sexual incapatability aspect of your marriage, and whatever other issues you are having. Just make sure it's a good counselor, or you will be wasting your time. Sometimes it takes trying a few different counselors before you find one that is right for you. Thanks Kathy. The good thing is that since my initial posting my wife & I have started counseling. We'll be doing our fourth session tomorrow, and were lucky enough to find a therapist we like right out of the gate.
Author NickFeek Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 That makes perfect sense, and thanks for setting me straight. Something was telling me that's not what you meant to say, but it nevertheless pushed one of my buttons. Yes, absolutely, lay all the cards on the table with your wife. No secret agendas, no covert contracts. I can understand why it would have pushed a button! Thanks for giving me a chance to clarify. That's right. It may sound sinister, but I often wish I was the type of person who could kick my conscience to the floor & just do whatever. But I know (now more than ever) the only good way to live is the true way, whatever that may mean for the future.
Tiberius Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) This has to rank as the worst tangent on this thread! I thought doink just meant having sex with. Guess there are still gaps in my American/British "street". I said tweens though, so that should settle it. Tween is somebody in his/her twenties Iam pretty sure of that. EDIT http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doink Apparently none of what I said refers to anything with 9-12 year olds. Either somebody confused teens with tweens or somebody has a pedo mind. Edited July 15, 2011 by Tiberius
Author NickFeek Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 I thought doink just meant having sex with. Guess there are still gaps in my American/British "street". I said tweens though, so that should settle it. Tween is somebody in his/her twenties Iam pretty sure of that. EDIT http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=doink Apparently none of what I said refers to anything with 9-12 year olds. Either somebody confused teens with tweens or somebody has a pedo mind. We figured you didn't mean that. Now I see the "translation gap". I definitely knew what "doink" meant! Here's the def of "tween", just so you don't run into any future "trouble". Thx. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tween
Tiberius Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) Ah I see. I thought tween was as in twenty. What are people in their twenties called like then? Edited July 15, 2011 by Tiberius
worldgonewrong Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 What are people in their twenties called like then? "Fair game"?
2sunny Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 if it were me - and i KNEW i had intentions of being honest in the M - i'd say "i won't see anyone behind your back - so i'm here to tell you that since you continue to eliminate YOUR participation in THIS marriage (knowing THAT doesn't work for ME) - i will spend time with another woman if it continues the way it has been going - or else we will divorce - what is your choice, honey?" leave the decision to her... it can't be cheating if you ask her permission - and she shouldn't have it her way knowing you feel ignored within the M. THAT is what honesty would look like. that is a solid boundary.
Tiberius Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) The question is what good will honesty do to him? Knowing about his demands and expectations torwards her pressures his wife. Knowing about him seeing other women will upset her even if she consents initially. And as for divorce, I am not sure he wants to lose half his assets and his children in a divorce, so he might as well try to avoid it. If you are happy with getting it elsewhere, dont tell the wife, nothing good will come out of it for anyone. Worst thing that will happen to you, she finds out about you seeing other women and does not accept it and then files for divorce. A risk you are willing to take at this point I assume, but that does not mean you have to put the noose around your neck yourself. ALSO like I said. She does not want you moody or being pestered because of your sexlife, but she also does not want to know about you seeing other women, so it would work best for her as well. Sunny you should ask yourself, do you intend to give him advice that works best for him, for his situation, or are you more interested in steering him towards a behaviour that would be acceptable to you, if you were the wife in that scenario? "I will spend time with another woman if it continues the way it has been going - or else we will divorce" leave her the decision. Here you have to decice what is more important to you Nick. Apart from the risk that she will opt for divorce, like I said before, even if she greenlights it, she will make it be known one way or another that knowing burdens her. You will have to decide what is better for you emotionally, IF she would greenlight you seeing other women. Living with your nagging coscience for seeing other women without telling her (which imo at this point should take the stfu truck) or living with a wife that knows. Edited July 15, 2011 by Tiberius
Author NickFeek Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 if it were me - and i KNEW i had intentions of being honest in the M - i'd say "i won't see anyone behind your back - so i'm here to tell you that since you continue to eliminate YOUR participation in THIS marriage (knowing THAT doesn't work for ME) - i will spend time with another woman if it continues the way it has been going - or else we will divorce - what is your choice, honey?" leave the decision to her... it can't be cheating if you ask her permission - and she shouldn't have it her way knowing you feel ignored within the M. THAT is what honesty would look like. that is a solid boundary. I think asking that, while it's accurate to a large extent, will force the issue in a way and at a time that will make her immediately choose divorce. That would not necessarily be her answer down the line, when she's in a better place emotionally. So I do see myself saying something very much like that at some point, only after she is in a place to decide her level of commitment that doesn't cone from intense hurt and anger - i.e. where she is now.
Author NickFeek Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 Tiberius, I worship St. Fu! but a conscience is what it is and it can't be ignored. could be down the line that would change. But things would have to go very wrong for very long for me to get there. As tempting as it is.... Gotta try the up front approach first and often.
Author NickFeek Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 what did counseling bring about today? We both pinpointed ways in which we trigger each other's defensiveness & unwillingness to communicate, and agreed to work on those. For me it's when she does not communicate. For her it's her fear that I will lash out at her. But the big thing the session brought was tears. She's been saying most of the week that she's ambivalent about wanting to work on our marriage. She came in eager to talk & did a great job of it. Then she started talking about what was upsetting her so much this week, and got emotional - understandable. The therapist suggested that she seek individual counseling AND/OR a trusted & objective friend/confidant. She broke down & cried & said she felt like she was being picked on, that our problems were being blamed on her. The therapist said, no, she was just expressing how my W seemed to have so much to talk out & vent etc. that it would be beneficial for her to have someone to talk to outside of our sessions, and that she felt our sessions should be focused primarily on the marriage as a unit & not too much on individual things. My wife interpreted that as her saying she "broke a rule" and shouldn't be allowed to express her pain & anger & ambivalence. The therapist said that's not the case, but that we should be focusing on how we can improve our relationship - what actions we can take daily & weekly - and gave us a bunch. After we left, my wife said she was really pissed & wanted to say eff you to both of us, lumping me in with the therapist even though I said nothing throughout all this. I told her that WE BOTH have things to work on & work out, and that it's important we do as much as possible together - because the more we're together the more opportunity we have to work on things. She agreed, but also said she wants to feel like she can express herself in the sessions. I said she should be able to say whatever she wants, and that I WANT to hear her say everything, since she's so uncommunicative normally. MY TAKE is that she gets scared & pissed anytime it's implied or stated outright that she has things she needs to work on. I even said something like that to her. She did not respond, but I could tell it made an impact. MY OTHER TAKE is that she WOULD benefit from therapy, and has so much to work out both because of and aside from me that our sessions would really run much better if she could unblock some things. Lots more, but have to feed the kids.
2sunny Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 i agree - she would benefit from individual therapy. especially if you were there - weren't saying anything - yet she still blamed you for what she said. hmmmmm since she has so much to talk through - it would be wise for her to get additional help so she can learn what a healthy role is within her family, good balance for her life, and invoke change that suits her best interest. more than that - it might help her have a voice (instead of avoiding and staying silent) and learn to speak HER truth. IF she could at least bring that to the table without hesitation or twisting an attack - that muddles the water - and deflects what you're there for - it would help to stay on path with the MC. i hope she won't delay. the way she participates is ALL of hers to own. do not allow her to place HER actions over and onto you. you own how you participate and she owns hers. begin to pay attention to your every action - every word. is it kind and loving? are you aware of how you affect those around you - how this affects self? pay attention to tone of voice and body language. pay attention and be accountable for how you participate.
Author NickFeek Posted July 15, 2011 Author Posted July 15, 2011 i agree - she would benefit from individual therapy. especially if you were there - weren't saying anything - yet she still blamed you for what she said. hmmmmm since she has so much to talk through - it would be wise for her to get additional help so she can learn what a healthy role is within her family, good balance for her life, and invoke change that suits her best interest. more than that - it might help her have a voice (instead of avoiding and staying silent) and learn to speak HER truth. IF she could at least bring that to the table without hesitation or twisting an attack - that muddles the water - and deflects what you're there for - it would help to stay on path with the MC. i hope she won't delay. the way she participates is ALL of hers to own. do not allow her to place HER actions over and onto you. you own how you participate and she owns hers. begin to pay attention to your every action - every word. is it kind and loving? are you aware of how you affect those around you - how this affects self? pay attention to tone of voice and body language. pay attention and be accountable for how you participate. Well said. We also focused on how I talk, how I respond, how I confront, etc. And I agreed I'd examine all of that. Yes, I've thought for too many years that she (and subsequently I) would benefit a ton from her going to therapy. My gut is she will not do this anytime soon. The good thing is I was 100% sure I did not bring on her mood shift today, and that the therapist would not have implied what my W thought she was implying. So it was clear to both of us that my W was reading into everything in a way that came all from her. I really really want her to speak ALL of her truths, no matter how scary they are to her. I can't see how we can make any progress until she does, and I even said something like that to her. I want her to feel & be heard, and hopefully lay to rest some of the myths she holds onto for dear life, so that we can get to the business at hand. In the mean time, I DO wish I had a mistress . It's a long & tough road.
2sunny Posted July 15, 2011 Posted July 15, 2011 In the mean time, I DO wish I had a mistress . It's a long & tough road. if you're honest - you will tell her this. also tell her you don't have one - but the way she DOESN'T participate makes you wish you did have someone to be intimate with - mind, body and spirit. did she read the book you asked her to read by today?
Author NickFeek Posted July 16, 2011 Author Posted July 16, 2011 if you're honest - you will tell her this. also tell her you don't have one - but the way she DOESN'T participate makes you wish you did have someone to be intimate with - mind, body and spirit. did she read the book you asked her to read by today? She did read the book. I'm telling you, I knew one thing very well, and that is that she would respond to therapy because she has a need to answer to "authority". She even said that today in the session. Without this expert and the weekly structure, I doubt she'd have read the book. I will say something like what you suggested. I think she knows that, but I think she also feels that I don't deserve that kind of attention right now, after how I've lied & cheated. If I can frame it in a way that acknowledges my mistakes, but still states that I deserve to find these things in life and soon, maybe (just maybe) she won't get super angry and shut down again. It's worth a shot, because she's doing that already!
2sunny Posted July 16, 2011 Posted July 16, 2011 she's already showing her anger - just not outwardly like she could... like having a voice and speaking her truth. she's holding it in, being silent/distant and taking it out by punishing you in ways she knows hurts you and the M most.
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