2sunny Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 what i meant to portray is that her actions/reaction to the change that is necessary isn't showing her intent to change and help the M. so what did the therapist recommend? what was your assignment to bring about change? this is still my question... you pay money - not just just go and talk, because you two CAN and do that at home. what DIRECTION did you get from the counselor? are you two following the directions given?
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 what i meant to portray is that her actions/reaction to the change that is necessary isn't showing her intent to change and help the M. this is still my question... you pay money - not just just go and talk, because you two CAN and do that at home. what DIRECTION did you get from the counselor? are you two following the directions given? I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sure you know I've been afraid of this truth for decades, and have found good & bad ways to cope. As I see it now, on her end she needs to show & prove that she is willing to work on her sex aversion issues. And on my end I need to combine complete dedication to my end goal (a fulfilling sex life - whether within this marriage or not) with sensitivity to her problem. This was our third session, so she is still gathering history & insight. I'd really prefer she keep doing this at least through the month, so that whatever directions she does finally give are tailored specifically to our needs. She has suggested we read that book & discuss. I've read it and handed it off to my W. And we've already discussed parts of it. And she has suggested better ways for us to talk about sensitive issues, which we've done marginally well. We're still not to the point where my W is comfortable & trusting enough of the process, or of me. Maybe now that her "worst fear" was realized this past session, it will be defused in her and she can ease in & open up more about everything. The sex talk is still going to be a mine field. But now that the therapist is VERY CLEAR about how major this issue is, you can bet I'll keep digging in & getting more specific.
2sunny Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 i do believe you are helping things to stay the same. you should be mad! that doesn't mean raising your voice and being physically violent. your passive nature with HER has helped the growth stay in one place. your inability to change has left her with no good reason to change things up. do you think she might start doing more if you stopped doing all the things you do for her and the household? you bet she would. if there was NO FOOD in the house and no toilet paper - she would get her a$$ to the market... make dinner... get home earlier. she has no good reason to change Nick - because you make sure things run smoothly. start making the road bumpy - she may notice more what needs to be done around there. stop participating the way she assumes you will. start going out to a class at night. to the gym. tell her you are busy and she needs to be home from work to take care of things. she needs to see what happens when you aren't there to be her doormat. yes, you better believe it - she DEFINITELY thinks of you as the doormat. that is half the problem.
2sunny Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 I agree wholeheartedly. I'm sure you know I've been afraid of this truth for decades, and have found good & bad ways to cope. As I see it now, on her end she needs to show & prove that she is willing to work on her sex aversion issues. And on my end I need to combine complete dedication to my end goal (a fulfilling sex life - whether within this marriage or not) with sensitivity to her problem. This was our third session, so she is still gathering history & insight. I'd really prefer she keep doing this at least through the month, so that whatever directions she does finally give are tailored specifically to our needs. She has suggested we read that book & discuss. I've read it and handed it off to my W. And we've already discussed parts of it. And she has suggested better ways for us to talk about sensitive issues, which we've done marginally well. We're still not to the point where my W is comfortable & trusting enough of the process, or of me. Maybe now that her "worst fear" was realized this past session, it will be defused in her and she can ease in & open up more about everything. The sex talk is still going to be a mine field. But now that the therapist is VERY CLEAR about how major this issue is, you can bet I'll keep digging in & getting more specific. talk and reading = we've done that - doesn't seem to invoke change. go back and read the formula for change. many reasons she's not changing... are in that formula. three weeks with that counselor and no action to change - that's disgraceful.
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 talk and reading = we've done that - doesn't seem to invoke change. go back and read the formula for change. many reasons she's not changing... are in that formula. three weeks with that counselor and no action to change - that's disgraceful. I'm not sure what experience you've had with counseling or therapy, but I completely disagree. Any therapist who thinks they can jump in this soon and suggest changes is a shyster. As I said, I'd rather she get all her facts & history straight before suggesting ANYTHING. We are right on course, and frankly I stepped up our talk schedule quite a bit yesterday.
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 i do believe you are helping things to stay the same. you should be mad! that doesn't mean raising your voice and being physically violent. your passive nature with HER has helped the growth stay in one place. your inability to change has left her with no good reason to change things up. do you think she might start doing more if you stopped doing all the things you do for her and the household? you bet she would. if there was NO FOOD in the house and no toilet paper - she would get her a$$ to the market... make dinner... get home earlier. she has no good reason to change Nick - because you make sure things run smoothly. start making the road bumpy - she may notice more what needs to be done around there. stop participating the way she assumes you will. start going out to a class at night. to the gym. tell her you are busy and she needs to be home from work to take care of things. she needs to see what happens when you aren't there to be her doormat. yes, you better believe it - she DEFINITELY thinks of you as the doormat. that is half the problem. You are speaking of the past. She is fully aware that I will not settle for anything less than a complete sex life from now on. And she knows I'm mad, and that includes about her work schedule. She is in full anxiety mode now because of this, and as much as I will try to comfort her, she knows that it's ON HER to reduce her own anxiety by coming to terms with this stuff & not keep shoving it away. The rest of it I just don't care about enough right now. Except that I already do take nights out for myself. I'd rather be sure that she can come through on this intimacy stuff before mucking up everything else. Because if she can't then I'm leaving anyway & there's no point to it.
2sunny Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 then act like you're mad. stop making the effort to appease her. get indifferent then - THAT would be change. stop contacting her- stop being home with her - go away for the weekend without her. let her see what it's like when YOU stop making all the effort to come to her. take time to reflect - on your own, without any distractions - and to stay quiet within yourself - to SEE what you need to see for clarity... moving forward.
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 then act like you're mad. stop making the effort to appease her. get indifferent then - THAT would be change. stop contacting her- stop being home with her - go away for the weekend without her. let her see what it's like when YOU stop making all the effort to come to her. take time to reflect - on your own, without any distractions - and to stay quiet within yourself - to SEE what you need to see for clarity... moving forward. I like that. I've done indifferent here & there these past few months, and it has definitely scared her. I'm going to start giving myself more time, and home less time. I had been doing that quite a bit last year. If she can't jump right into the fire with our hardest issues, rather than push & prod I SHOULD just step back.
2sunny Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 being away from the chaos (or what is normal for your life) helps with clarity. i tend to look at what i've done - things that work and don't work for me - and find ways to gain clarity on what i can change to make life happier for me. to get that from myself - i need that quiet time... to "listen for direction". my meditation... time for solitude to reflect on what is needed helps me to stay on path...
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 if you started a thread that asked "how can i change my wife?" the responses would likely tell you - you can't! the only one you can change is YOU... what are YOU going to change? Well it's a good thing I didn't start it that way! I am changing how I approach the problems in our marriage. I am changing the way I interact with her regarding these problems. And I am changing my future by insisting I no longer miss out on certain things that I need to be satisfied & happier. While I can't change her, SHE can change her. I want to do everything I can to elicit that response from her, to find out if she's capable of a deeper understanding that will prompt her to want to change. The rest is up to her.
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 Sorry, I disagree with just about every characterization and judgment in your post.
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 then tell me how your way is working? your wife wasn't honest when she sat there and didn't tell the counselor she was pissed. and if she got more mad afterwards - a phone call to the counselor should have been made expressing her anger. to do nothing is futile. the pretending is crazy Nick! you have become so immune to complacency and less than adequate - that you invite it back in like it's an old friend - the door is open wide - and it's old behaviors and patterns that have gained the momentum again and taken up residency. No she wasn't honest, but there was no reason for her to call the counselor. She expressed her anger to me, which is the right thing to do. We can bring the counselor up to speed next week. And before then, we will have spoken at greater depth about her anger, and about why she has such an aversion to this subject overall. I'll also make sure to tell her that it will continue to be a part of our sessions no matter how uncomfortable that makes her. I have done so much pattern breaking recently. Sure, I've also had days falling back into patterns, but whatever. No one can sustain at 100% under our circumstances. What MATTERS is that I no longer SETTLE for the old patterns, or the old ways of living. And in fact it's somewhat healthy & illustrative for me to fall back there now & then, if only to remind me how awful a place it is.
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 she knows you're thinking of leaving she knows you want sex - and the sex part to be better she knows she needs to participate and facilitate that end result by taking action how can she expect sex to get better without ideas implemented from professional help? she balks at any of it - knowing it what is needed to make things better she resists... and gets mad = she may not want the changes at all. THAT is what her actions are saying. I really agree. What I'm saying is, now that it's part of our therapy conversation, the more details we (or most like I) give, the greater the chance the therapist will see my W's patterns of behavior & avoidance. And as we flesh that out, my W will either come to understand what's been holding us back, or she will continue to resist. Either way there's an answer at the end of that process, and one that she will then know she has to live with, all consequences included.
Author NickFeek Posted July 9, 2011 Author Posted July 9, 2011 tell me if she's been home early in the past month each day? i don't think she's motivated for change - even her reaction to learning you were leaving wasn't to say "i'll do anything, Nick - and i love you so much - that i want this to work." and anger? come on - she had to expect to address issues in counseling - that's what you're there for! you haven't even addressed them yet - you only threw them out on the table so far. i can't reasonably understand why you keep at it - love or no love - that life would never be worth it. someone else in the world would give there right arm to have a H make the effort to grow the M to a healthy state. most women would love to be that receiver - then bounce that positive energy right back at you. growing the love bigger. I kept the parts I wanted to respond to, though I really appreciated all of it. She has been home earlier more in the past month than prior, but the overall effect has been negligible. The only positive on this I'll say is that she is constantly aware of her lateness, which may sound pathetic but is actually a step forward - she acknowledges it as a problem. That second line I quoted, it hurts so much. I never thought of it that way. I'm so used to her response being "F me?? - No, F YOU!" - defensiveness to the nth degree, that I didn't even consider it unusual that she would just say get out of the house, and it never entered my mind that she'd EVER think of trying to "do anything" to get me back. Though I should qualify this. Right before I told her I'd leave, she had agreed to make changes regarding ALL of my "conditions", so she probably felt that she had already made a pledge to do that in good faith, and I rejected it. The anger point - she is a sick person. By that I mean I think she's been living with a low grade depression her whole adult life, and it colors everything. Moreover, she is SO CONSCIOUS of what others may think of her that it is paralyzing. Crippling. And very hard to battle. I keep at it because she is generous in other ways. She is loving in other ways. She complements me in other ways. And I like & love her in many ways. I think one of the faults is that we BOTH fall into the trap of thinking positives in some areas can make up for negatives in other areas. But you can't make grass grow by watering the flowers. And that's what I'm fighting to change now. I'm fighting to maintain the health of the flowers and to finally get that damn grass watered! The last sentences - they're really nice to hear. I get so little positive response back, and so small of a window to really influence her moods, that I have grown to feel my efforts don't mean anything. I guess it's possible my mistakes & bad behavior - of which I have been profoundly guilty over the years - might take away the good will of everything else. Nevertheless, her insistence on holding grudges (especially ones she's unaware of) is over the top and debilitating, and sets up barriers everywhere. I'm still working under the notion that my cheating is not that far in the past, so ALL of her responses are colored by that. And that is also part of the benefit of the doubt I'm giving her, and why it may seem I'm being more patient than I should be. But this period is slowly ebbing, and my patience is wearing thin.
Author NickFeek Posted July 10, 2011 Author Posted July 10, 2011 this was a useful info from a very wise poster directed at Surfer203... who struggles with his wife and M as well. just thought of you while reading many of the points he was making to Surfer203. what do you think? I know that when I get wrapped up in anger it's DEFINITELY a sign that I'm not doing or saying something I should be. I think what it comes down to is what is one person's version of doing something as opposed to another's? What constitutes enough "action" to satisfy that person's need to resolve the anger & other emotions? I know from the things & do & say that I am taking action that helps, that is moving me forward (if not us). I ALSO KNOW that the recurrence of my anger signifies that where we are now is not good enough, and that's one thing that keeps me on track. My pace of change is decidedly slow, but I have an unfailing barometer and a strong desire & determination not to fall back into a perpetual state of anger ever again.
Author NickFeek Posted July 11, 2011 Author Posted July 11, 2011 i'll take you as good for your word and respect that your decision works for you. i respect this decision you have made... all the best to you Nick, stay on path. Thanks, 2sunny. I will stay on path, and I will always keep in mind what you've been saying. As things change here - and they will - I'll post updates.
Tiberius Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) This is a great question, and deserves total honesty. I've only cheated once, and it lasted about a week. I regretted it, and eventually told her about it, though it took me a few weeks after it was over to get up the courage (not proud of that). She & I have been dealing with the aftereffects of this for six months, so it's complicated matters considerably. She has been very patient & reasonable when she could have easily kicked me out. We have both been much more respectful of each other since this has happened, and are talking more than we used to. So far, however, the jury is out as to what we should do. Our history weighs as much as (or more than) this recent event. She does not want sex. Quit pestering here. Obviously finding out that you cheated will hurt her, because that makes her feel like she lost the relationship game or something. Get something on the side and keep your mouth shut. She wont be troubled by your demands, your childrens heritage wont be flushed in a divorce and supporting 2 households and you get to get your rocks off. Will she even ask where you have been if you dont come straight home from work or take a private day on weekends? Edited July 13, 2011 by Tiberius
Author NickFeek Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 Any update? Thanks for checking in. Not much of an update, I guess. We did talk a bit earlier this week, but were interrupted by our two-year-old. I've tried to get her to pick up the conversation a few times, but no go. Her basic point was going to be that so far, from what she's read of After the Affair, she's gathering that there's not much hope for us. She was just about to elaborate when we were interrupted, so I have no specifics. I've been left with that thought for the last three days. She does think we should talk again before our session this Friday, but the rest of the week is anything like the first part, I don't see that happening. So I said to her just please read the rest of the book so we will have the same info going in on Friday & can really flesh it out. In the mean time, some small changes - she is putting our little one to bed more often, so I get an actual break at night. She is coming home from work earlier more often. I'm still extremely concerned about her increased work load, and am already seeing signs of major stress & preoccupation in her - moreso than usual . I am REALLY eager to hear what she'll say to the therapist this Friday, after last week's meltdown. And I know some of you might say, why wait until then? There's something in her that allows her to speak more clearly when someone else is listening, one reason why I knew therapy would be a benefit to us. More soon.
Author NickFeek Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 She does not want sex. Quit pestering here. Obviously finding out that you cheated will hurt her, because that makes her feel like she lost the relationship game or something. Get something on the side and keep your mouth shut. She wont be troubled by your demands, your childrens heritage wont be flushed in a divorce and supporting 2 households and you get to get your rocks off. Will she even ask where you have been if you dont come straight home from work or take a private day on weekends? This is what I call an alternative viewpoint! Believe me, at this point and thinking about the most likely future, if there was a way we could agree to that openly I'd do it. I'd still prefer that she find a way to reengage & open up more to me, but as they say - past predicts future or whatever. Barring that, I just don't have the constitution to cheat regularly, no matter how tempting. My conscience will not allow it. Just the one brief fling and it was eating away at me for weeks until I finally had to tell her. As to that last point, you've hit on something big. With her schedule, and how flexible my schedule is, I could be doing any number of things & she'd never know. More than that, she would probably take a don't-ask-don't-tell approach as she's done in the past. Again, I just could not do that for so many reasons, but it's almost like she has been leaving the door wide open for this for years - pulling away, working more & more, not responding to me, etc. It doesn't excuse what I did or give me license to do it again, but it's really weird and has always bothered me that she sets up so many of the circumstances conducive to an affair - and almost deliberately.
Tiberius Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) For whatever reason sex seems to be that huge burden to her. Your demands for sex and you being unhappy just put her under more pressure. She is 47 you say? How much longer do you think you will be seriously interested in her carnally. Get some action, get off her back. If she doesnt feel pressured and bad anymore for not havin sex and you at the same time lighten up because you get to doink tweens, maybe she will lighten up more, if you dont rub into her face who you used for entertainment. All the time you have spent on her to no avail is all time you could have used ***kin. Edited July 14, 2011 by Tiberius
Author NickFeek Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 For whatever reason sex seems to be that huge burden to her. Your demands for sex and you being unhappy just put her under more pressure. She is 47 you say? How much longer do you think you will be seriously interested in her carnally. Get some action, get off her back. If she doesnt feel pressured and bad anymore for not havin sex and you at the same time lighten up because you get to doink tweens, maybe she will lighten up more, if you dont rub into her face who you used for entertainment. All the time you have spent on her to no avail is all time you could have used ***kin. We're both 42, and it's never been a question of attraction. She'll always be attractive to me. Believe me, I do regret the lost years sex-wise. And one way or another I plan to make up for that, whether it's with her or somewhere else. I just want to do it the right way.
worldgonewrong Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 lighten up because you get to doink tweens Yuck?
Author NickFeek Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Yuck? Agreed. Was ignoring that one!
2sunny Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 We did talk a bit earlier this week, but were interrupted by our two-year-old. I've tried to get her to pick up the conversation a few times, but no go. this is what i find absolutely unacceptable. you want to have a discussion with your wife... and she knows this - yet she doesn't give you the time of day to accomplish a conversation. She was just about to elaborate when we were interrupted, so I have no specifics. I've been left with that thought for the last three days. She does think we should talk again before our session this Friday, but the rest of the week is anything like the first part, I don't see that happening. So I said to her just please read the rest of the book so we will have the same info going in on Friday & can really flesh it out. and so you SETTLE for nothing from her - for more days than you would like. she's purposefully hurtful. that's not loving behavior at all. and so then you relent to only asking for her to read before Friday? nothing like putting any of your expectations of decency aside for her benefit/consideration - knowing full well she is $hitting all over you. she holds all the power - EVEN for a simple conversation! that's absurd Nick!!! YOU TWO ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MARRIED! IF she gave her job as much time and energy as she gives her marriage - SHE'D have been fired a long time ago. i can't understand why you find this even slightly adequate. maybe in your past life - you were trained well to accept so little attention that this is your sense of "normal?" i can't imagine why a human would think this is anything remotely close to a relationship - much less a marriage. IF she's planning to give you nothing - she should at least be willing to allow you to find what you're needing outside of being with her inadequate way she participates.
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