2sunny Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Love him! Believe me, I'd be in an asylum at this point if not for that option! And maybe that's where she's at too. Alone with no release and no idea of what release may make it better for her. Keeping her demands up with you going along with those demands that keep her trapped in her own isolated world. Round we go. Contrary action Nick, it seems, is the only way out of being this stuck.
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 And maybe that's where she's at too. Alone with no release and no idea of what release may make it better for her. Keeping her demands up with you going along with those demands that keep her trapped in her own isolated world. Round we go. Contrary action Nick, it seems, is the only way out of being this stuck. That's a good way to look at it - to think of her as trapped instead of in control. And I can think of my actions as a way to free BOTH of us instead of just me.
psionyx Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) A. her resistance is incredible; and B. true change has to come from within. This hits the nail right on the head. It almost seems like the 1000 posts in this thread can be distilled to a simple question: Will she ever be willing to change? I know this requires a certain amount of future prediction, but on the other hand the past is always the best indicator of the future. And from the perspective of those on the outside, as well as from your own words, it seems like the chances of her wanting to change herself in a way that would satisfy your needs is... very low. I can't recall if you've already asked her this - but has she told you one way or another whether she's willing to change herself for you? Where there's a will, there's a way... where there's no will, there's no way ;-) And really I should write "...change herself for herself" - because that's the only way it's going to happen. It's a fundamental problem in some relationships (including one I'm, ahem, intimately familiar with) where one partner made an unfortunate implicit assumption at the beginning that certain things would get better over time, and that the other person would naturally change as they mature into a more well developed human being, and also change by being positively influenced by the other partner. Unfortunately this assumption often turns out to be false, and the gamble that was taken does not ever pay off. The conventional wisdom is that you should never expect anyone to change for the better, and to do so is to invite eventual re-evaluation and disaster. I apologize if I'm unconsciously projecting, but I see your situation reflected in my own quite a bit - even if the circumstances are different. Edited July 6, 2011 by psionyx
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 This hits the nail right on the head. It almost seems like the 1000 posts in this thread can be distilled to a simple question: Will she ever be willing to change? I know this requires a certain amount of future prediction, but on the other hand the past is always the best indicator of the future. And from the perspective of those on the outside, as well as from your own words, it seems like the chances of her wanting to change herself in a way that would satisfy your needs is... very low. I can't recall if you've already asked her this - but has she told you one way or another whether she's willing to change herself for you? Where there's a will, there's a way... where there's no will, there's no way ;-) And really I should write "...change herself for herself" - because that's the only way it's going to happen. It's a fundamental problem in some relationships (including one I'm, ahem, intimately familiar with) where one partner made an unfortunate implicit assumption at the beginning that certain things would get better over time, and that the other person would naturally change as they mature into a more well developed human being, and also change by being positively influenced by the other partner. Unfortunately this assumption often turns out to be false, and the gamble that was taken does not ever pay off. The conventional wisdom is that you should never expect anyone to change for the better, and to do so is to invite eventual re-evaluation and disaster. I apologize if I'm unconsciously projecting, but I see your situation reflected in my own quite a bit - even if the circumstances are different. I don't mind the projecting - it can often bring other insights. it seems like the chances of her wanting to change herself in a way that would satisfy your needs is... very low. I can't recall if you've already asked her this - but has she told you one way or another whether she's willing to change herself for you? I'm sure this is the very thing that has kept me cowed in fear for years & years, and compelled me to seek other outlets so as to avoid this very question. This is the time for her to answer it once and for all. She has not ever really said NO. Nor has she completely said YES. I think she feels she's in a position of wanting to say NO, but realizing if she does it's over, so she's LEANING towards YES, but still very reluctant to go there. That's why I've been handling this so delicately - in some people's eyes TOO delicately. It's because I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt that she's on the cusp of change, and can't be pushed to it. If it's a matter of changing herself for herself, I'd say the answer is going to be NO. While there are other areas she's expressed a desire to change - work, kids, etc. - I truly believe she is happy with who she is interpersonally/sexually. I could be wrong, but as you say past predicts future, and all indications would point to her being okay with herself in this realm. As for people changing over time, that's a weird one for us. We met at 17, so a certain amount of changing & growing was scheduled to happen anyway. Ironically, after we both "became adults", she was looking to me to do the changing, and in many ways I DID. It's just that the changing I did was probably not what she expected or wanted. And I ABSOLUTELY was operating under the belief that she would "mature" into a fully realized woman, something she's done in many ways but NOT sexually. So in opposite ways we were BOTH fooled. Short answer is I'm not ready to close the book on her ability or desire to change, but I'm realistic enough to see that it's very possible it won't happen.
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 so - you say you want to instill change... did YOU go out TODAY and buy her a small vibrator?
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 so - you say you want to instill change... did YOU go out TODAY and buy her a small vibrator? No. Came straight from work to send the babysitter home, and was taking care of the kids until she got home at 8:30, at which time we started to put them to bed. But I DID research vibrators online, and looked up some other info on how to deal with vaginismus & sexual aversion.
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 No. Came straight from work to send the babysitter home, and was taking care of the kids until she got home at 8:30, at which time we started to put them to bed. But I DID research vibrators online, and looked up some other info on how to deal with vaginismus & sexual aversion. so another day of DOING nothing different. more talk - more research... same problems. not anything new Nick... it's all the same... different day though. notice the pattern here?
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 at this point - her resistance is expected - just jump in - because you know she's never going to get the changes started on her own. IF she resists... it proves with evidence that she isn't planning to DO what she's been telling you she would do. words mean absolutely NOTHING unless the action backs it up. re read this thread yourself. it's your life Nick. if you want to complain and not do anything - you could at least let us know - because at this point this is all a time and energy waster. nothing gets done that's different. man up dude... grow some balls and get busy changing your life around... otherwise stop complaining and leaving it the same.
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 so another day of DOING nothing different. more talk - more research... same problems. not anything new Nick... it's all the same... different day though. notice the pattern here? It's the best I could do today. My main objective for this week is to take soserious's approach and really open up her eyes to our pattern. And then to say we need to be adults about this and get specific about what we're both willing to change. The vibrator is secondary.
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 It's the best I could do today. My main objective for this week is to take soserious's approach and really open up her eyes to our pattern. And then to say we need to be adults about this and get specific about what we're both willing to change. The vibrator is secondary. i think so serious has some amazing points. but it's all worthless if YOU aren't putting all your honesty out there - with every action, interaction and words. and speaking of your words... it's backwards - YOU can't make HER open her eyes to anything. that is for her. she may never open them - especially if her resistance is high. this change is you Nick. YOU may need to open your eyes that she doesn't intend to do what you want. it's very possible. but this is for sure - only SHE can open her eyes. have you two had sex since last time you posted? was it any more connected or passionate than last time? buy the vibrator... present it to her - SEE if SHE will use it and let you watch - or let you use it on her. THAT in itself will tell you EVERYTHING you need to know. IF she won't even think of using it - her resistance is high and her mind is closed to change. it may show you what she's unwilling to say.
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 at this point - her resistance is expected - just jump in - because you know she's never going to get the changes started on her own. IF she resists... it proves with evidence that she isn't planning to DO what she's been telling you she would do. words mean absolutely NOTHING unless the action backs it up. re read this thread yourself. it's your life Nick. if you want to complain and not do anything - you could at least let us know - because at this point this is all a time and energy waster. nothing gets done that's different. man up dude... grow some balls and get busy changing your life around... otherwise stop complaining and leaving it the same. Keeping in mind A. her aversion to all this, and B. my recent infidelity, I'm not sure her saying no to a vibrator proves anything. I know in this case the vibrator is also a symbol for taking action, but it's up to me to know WHICH symbol to use here, so as not to push her further away. Even baby steps are steps forward. You've said all this before, and while I appreciate the rallying cries and all, what you seem to overlook is that things HAVE changed. Slowly but yes. I guarantee somewhere in this thread you and several others said many times over that she'd never agree to go to therapy, and here we are. I'm positive we've all said many times how she never cares enough to call or email me during the day, and yet she's improved on that score too. And this is in large part because I'm taking action & insisting on these changes. I'm not going to sabotage the work we're doing by getting impatient about how quickly change needs to come. What's important is that I keep my eye on the goal, and that even when I have a weak day or week, I can still be focused on getting there. It doesn't guarantee she'll do HER work, but I can't be responsible for that - only for making sure she always knows that I'm insisting the work is necessary to save our marriage. I do think rereading this thread would be good for me, though. I want to get us through the next session on Thursday, and our upcoming and very specific sex talk, and then I'll take it from there.
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 i think so serious has some amazing points. but it's all worthless if YOU aren't putting all your honesty out there - with every action, interaction and words. and speaking of your words... it's backwards - YOU can't make HER open her eyes to anything. that is for her. she may never open them - especially if her resistance is high. this change is you Nick. YOU may need to open your eyes that she doesn't intend to do what you want. it's very possible. but this is for sure - only SHE can open her eyes. have you two had sex since last time you posted? was it any more connected or passionate than last time? buy the vibrator... present it to her - SEE if SHE will use it and let you watch - or let you use it on her. THAT in itself will tell you EVERYTHING you need to know. IF she won't even think of using it - her resistance is high and her mind is closed to change. it may show you what she's unwilling to say. I have been more honest with her these last few months than maybe ever. No, not consistently, but that's hard for anyone to do, let alone trying to break a long term pattern. And I fully intend to continue to throw honesty out there as often as I can. Ah yes, I can't make her do anything, but I can influence her. And that's why soserious's suggestion is so valuable. It shows her that I'm thinking about this as a problem we BOTH have and BOTH need to fix, as opposed to pointing fingers. It could facilitate me getting in and around her normal pattern of thinking & responding, and so influence her to think differently. THEN it's up to her to do the rest. But we all know damn well she won't go even half that distance if I say NOTHING. No, no sex. And this is a huge reason why I've been so dejected. I know I can't expect her to turn it all around at once, especially during her continued recovery from my cheating, but what I'm REALLY getting is that she's reluctant to push any further into that field because she resents me & resents having to do it. As I said, I AM going to get the vibrator. But I'm going to buy a cheap one because it's no use wasting money on something that's surely going to be rejected, cringed at, laughed at. Maybe instead of the utensil I can think of something she'd be more likely to at least consider. Some kind of body cream or jelly or edible whatever?
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) you are always willing to appease her... and her reluctant side. meanwhile feeling dejected and resentful. bowing down to her requirements of nothing has been futile. not useful. either she will or she won't. maybe you really don't want to know the REAL answer... fear never gets us what we want - moreso it keeps us right in the place we hate. since you are willing to bow down to her requests - knowing you really want more - you are only betraying yourself every time - while lying the whole way knowing you want more. pretending will not get you what you want. Edited July 6, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 you are always willing to appease her... and her reluctant side. meanwhile feeling dejected and resentful. bowing down to her requirements of nothing has been futile. not useful. either she will or she won't. maybe you really don't want to know the REAL answer... fear never gets us what we want - moreso it keeps us right in the place we hate. since you are willing to bow down to her requests - knowing you really want more - you are only betraying yourself every time - while lying the whole way knowing you want more. pretending will not get you what you want. I agree I can't bow down to her idea of our marriage anymore. But what I'm suggesting is not a change in the outcome or the WHAT, but in the process or the HOW. What I AM catering to is her inbred sensitivities in this matter. I admit some of that is based on the hope that making her feel safe with give us a better chance that she'll take action. I also admit that I don't have MUCH hope. All I'm really trying to do is give this the best chance of working. Doesn't mean I'm going to take my eye off the goal.
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 and in the thought of HOW - the only way to be sure you don't get what you've come to know in your past is to DO everything completely opposite of what you have always done. contrary action. and that should include not worrying about HOW she feels at this point... that has kept you two stuck for 25 years. just do things any way you have never done. go ahead... see IF any of it brings about change. i can guarantee contrary action WILL give you change. scared? fear will keep you stuck with what you say you don't like. time to get rid of the fear. no time like today. tomorrow never comes. 25 years has slipped away while waiting for tomorrow...
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 and in the thought of HOW - the only way to be sure you don't get what you've come to know in your past is to DO everything completely opposite of what you have always done. contrary action. and that should include not worrying about HOW she feels at this point... that has kept you two stuck for 25 years. just do things any way you have never done. go ahead... see IF any of it brings about change. i can guarantee contrary action WILL give you change. scared? fear will keep you stuck with what you say you don't like. time to get rid of the fear. no time like today. tomorrow never comes. 25 years has slipped away while waiting for tomorrow... Good point. It's important to remember, though, that in these 25 years I have tried every way you can think of short of leaving. So you got me thinking. The main difference in THIS version of HOW is that I refuse to back down, to agree to live life under our former tacit agreements. AND that I insist on specificity in all things, and full honesty from her. As much as we talk about how I can be less than completely honest - or at least not fully disclose - I believe the biggest problem here is that SHE has not been able to be honest about herself and our marriage maybe ever.
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 tell me how you are planning to make her be honest? similarly - can she force you to be honest?
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 tell me how you are planning to make her be honest? similarly - can she force you to be honest? She doesn't need to force me to be honest. She would prefer I NOT be honest about this. I have been honest often with her. The thing that hasn't happened is her actually HEARING and PROCESSING and then RESPONDING TO my honesty. And to my discredit I've let that slide time and again. That's what will be different. I can't make her be honest, but I can elicit honesty from her by speaking my honesty yet again and THIS TIME not let her slide - make sure she hears, processes, and responds right then & there.
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 She doesn't need to force me to be honest. She would prefer I NOT be honest about this. I have been honest often with her. The thing that hasn't happened is her actually HEARING and PROCESSING and then RESPONDING TO my honesty. And to my discredit I've let that slide time and again. That's what will be different. I can't make her be honest, but I can elicit honesty from her by speaking my honesty yet again and THIS TIME not let her slide - make sure she hears, processes, and responds right then & there. her silence has been her operating method in the past. it works for her. you settle for it. she most likely will continue giving you noting to work from. contrary action helps to change the operating method. you being silent may encourage her to speak. probably not though. sit down - be completely quiet after asking her what you intend to ask. a room of silence does wonders to an awareness level and what is really happening... and what is actually said or not said. watch for body language in your silence... it usually tells everything the person won't say.
Author NickFeek Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 her silence has been her operating method in the past. it works for her. you settle for it. she most likely will continue giving you noting to work from. contrary action helps to change the operating method. you being silent may encourage her to speak. probably not though. sit down - be completely quiet after asking her what you intend to ask. a room of silence does wonders to an awareness level and what is really happening... and what is actually said or not said. watch for body language in your silence... it usually tells everything the person won't say. Hm. I can try that. I'm sure me being totally silent won't work. But staying in the room after I've confronted her with my truth, and waiting for her to answer - that's different. Usually I get so frustrated and/or nervous about her silence that I fill it up with more talking/prodding/etc., which leads to me finding something else to say that she'd be more likely to respond to, thus weakening or wiping out my intended points. I'm going to try this.
2sunny Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Hm. I can try that. I'm sure me being totally silent won't work. But staying in the room after I've confronted her with my truth, and waiting for her to answer - that's different. Usually I get so frustrated and/or nervous about her silence that I fill it up with more talking/prodding/etc., which leads to me finding something else to say that she'd be more likely to respond to, thus weakening or wiping out my intended points. I'm going to try this. confront is a strong word. asking simple questions works best... then just waiting for the answer - without any need to fill up the silence - even better. contrary action. you doing things differently usually changes the outcome. the other person may speak more when you stay silent... we do know this... she can't give you the info you need and ask for if you are talking.
2sunny Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 did you have counseling today Nick? what are you changing?
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 did you have counseling today Nick? what are you changing? I was just about to post! Oh boy. What a day! Our session went well, or so I believed. I was asked to start, and I brought up an idea from After the Affair, that we have competing "enabling fictions" that make everything seem all right when it's not, and lull us into choosing "perpetual forgiveness over the possibility of change." I did not do a great job of interpreting that. I was too vague & general. In a way that was good, because my wife was asked to interpret it. She started talking about our work/home conflict. She also mentioned how she feels that my values have altered quite a bit since I was 17, while hers have stayed the same. We spent a good 20-30 minutes on these and other related things, all of which I thought were important. And it was good to hear her talk at length, something she doesn't often do. One thing we talked about was that I compared her to my father over the weekend. She admitted she was taken aback by that (she really does not like him), and at the time I was not very good at explaining why I thought this. Having had time to clarify my thoughts, I explained that I felt lots of fear confronting her about something I know she's uncomfortable with. That I'm afraid she'll respond defensively or deny there's a problem, something my dad often did & does (along with his abuse). I agreed that part of this might be me "projecting & expecting", and so making it self-fulfilling, but that part of it seemed to me to be based in reality. I then eventually went on to explain that my original comment about the enabling fictions was not really about work, although that was part of it. I started in by listing all the things I like & love about her, and all the reasons I want our marriage to work and to spend my life with her. Then I said that in my mind the "enabling fiction" that has damaged us the most has been our sex life. I made a point of saying that we are BOTH responsible for allowing it to flounder the way it has, akin to what soserious suggested. And that I know my behavior off & on over all these years has not made it easy for her to WANT to have a good sex life. I then went on to say that the reason I'm here and have stuck around for all these years is because I still believe we have the potential to have a great sex life. I quoted something else from the book - that it's an act of generosity towards the marriage to express one's true needs - and that I did not do this at all when we were young, which set forth my end of our pattern of avoidance. And I said I want to own up to all of my mistakes & mishandlings, and hope that she'll be able to do the same. She seemed to handle it well at the time. But I could tell the moment we left that she was severely pissed. I thanked her for bearing with me, knowing how apprehensive I was & how difficult it is for me to express this stuff, and of course how hard it is for her to talk about this. Then we parted - she back to work & me home to the kids. She called me before she was leaving the office to come home, and it turned out her anger had GROWN throughout the day & night. She was SO angry, that she didn't come home until after 10:30, and did not talk to me. Rather than respond the way I usually do - hurt, defensive, lashing out. I told her I understand that she's upset, and I'm sorry she feels that way, and that I'm here when she wants to talk. She did not talk, but it did soften her. Tell me - does this not exemplify why I think she's like my father? She basically said on the phone that I should have just saved them all that time & cut right to the chase, that the ONLY thing that matters to me is the sex, and we could have skipped over all the talk about work & family, etc. I told her that EVERYTHING I said in the session was true, and that I gave all those other topics lots of time & thought & talking because they're also important to me. And that I thought the "blinding light" of my sex talk (extremely non-specific by design, but still so incredibly upsetting to her) washed out ALL the other things I said & responded to, including how much I love her & want us to be together for life. I know this is hard for her. And I know the first time opening this up must be her worst nightmare. And I plan to continue to be patient, especially considering we're not that far removed from my cheating. But I have to say I'm NOT shocked but STILL DISAPPOINTED that she responded so characteristically. I just don't know what she's thinking, how she could believe that we wouldn't have to get into this. I'm going to let this simmer in her, while continuing to stress that I want us to work together on this and other things. When she is calmer & ready to deal with it for real, I'll be here. And the good thing (again by design) is that worst case we have a session next Friday, so I know we'll be getting back to the subject. Sorry this was so long (and there was WAY more we both said!), but I thought it important to illustrate some things. Thanks.
2sunny Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) so let me get this right - you are going to counseling to improve the marriage by talking honestly and getting into change, right? she shows she is capable of speaking about how she feels you state your truth you talk of many things then the sex part she sits quietly while there gets mad after - when the counselor isn't present to help gets more angry at YOU for being honest she was pissed and you appeased her again by taking the blame (for what? being honest?) you rewarded her bad behavior by bowing to her lowering the bar again expects not to be authentic - and that makes everything better? NO wants you to pretend to others wants to pretend as well holds on to another idea of why she can be angry with you punishes you when she COULD come home and talk it through she avoids more punishing and your Dad? no wonder you are used to her. your assigned meaning wouldn't allow you to have a nice, loving, kind woman if she bumped right into you. you chose what's familiar. you will most likely stick with it - just because that's all you know. unless you unlearn what you've learned - and then learn a new kind of healthy. so what did the therapist recommend? what was your assignment to bring about change? honestly Nick - your wife has designed this so well in order to hold you back from any change... an you just aren't willing to be uncomfortable with any of it to be capable of getting to the happy side. appeasing her = this is what you get. bowing down = this is what she intends to accomplish. punishing you and being angry for your honesty is just criminal to me. she's stealing your best years and YOU are allowing it. she wants you to betray yourself for her. she may as well have ordered it up on a silver platter today. she plays a manipulation card and you bow down again...even further. you still seem to always hand her all your power! why be patient when she shut you out with INTENT! isn't she in this to SAVE the M? doesn't look like it to me. she looks like she's intending to road block any help - but pretend to be Mrs Nice Wife while she's in there. what a Fing farce! she's not doing anything different... she seems to be getting worse. you get more patient as she gets pissed. why be patient? you've told her the M is on the line - yet she's isn't into action to change things. why are you going along with betraying yourself? you are completely out of balance Nick. it's getting worse. there is no recovery happening - she won't allow that. i guess we now know that she stays late at work to punish you. nice eh? loving behavior eh? no Nick. IF it was loving behavior she would have cancelled the day of work and talked it through and FOUND A SOLUTION THAT WORKS FOR BOTH OF YOU - and a solid way to implement that solution! she ran away and hid until late in the night. coward. she's a coward. Edited July 8, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted July 8, 2011 Author Posted July 8, 2011 so let me get this right - you are going to counseling to improve the marriage by talking honestly and getting into change, right? she shows she is capable of speaking about how she feels you state your truth you talk of many things then the sex part she sits quietly while there gets mad after - when the counselor isn't present to help gets more angry at YOU for being honest she was pissed and you appeased her again by taking the blame (for what? being honest?) you rewarded her bad behavior by bowing to her lowering the bar again expects not to be authentic - and that makes everything better? NO wants you to pretend to others wants to pretend as well holds on to another idea of why she can be angry with you punishes you when she COULD come home and talk it through she avoids more punishing and your Dad? no wonder you are used to her. your assigned meaning wouldn't allow you to have a nice, loving, kind woman if she bumped right into you. you chose what's familiar. you will most likely stick with it - just because that's all you know. unless you unlearn what you've learned - and then learn a new kind of healthy. so what did the therapist recommend? what was your assignment to bring about change? honestly Nick - your wife has designed this so well in order to hold you back from any change... an you just aren't willing to be uncomfortable with any of it to be capable of getting to the happy side. appeasing her = this is what you get. bowing down = this is what she intends to accomplish. punishing you and being angry for your honesty is just criminal to me. she's stealing your best years and YOU are allowing it. she wants you to betray yourself for her. she may as well have ordered it up on a silver platter today. she plays a manipulation card and you bow down again...even further. you still seem to always hand her all your power! why be patient when she shut you out with INTENT! isn't she in this to SAVE the M? doesn't look like it to me. she looks like she's intending to road block any help - but pretend to be Mrs Nice Wife while she's in there. what a Fing farce! she's not doing anything different... she seems to be getting worse. you get more patient as she gets pissed. why be patient? you've told her the M is on the line - yet she's isn't into action to change things. why are you going along with betraying yourself? you are completely out of balance Nick. it's getting worse. there is no recovery happening - she won't allow that. i guess we now know that she stays late at work to punish you. nice eh? loving behavior eh? no Nick. IF it was loving behavior she would have cancelled the day of work and talked it through and FOUND A SOLUTION THAT WORKS FOR BOTH OF YOU - and a solid way to implement that solution! she ran away and hid until late in the night. coward. she's a coward. Your post is full of good points, and is also WAY over the top. Rather than try to respond to everything, I have a few questions/comments: 1. What did I "take the blame" for, other than legitimate mistakes I made throughout the years? 2. No question she is avoiding & punishing & wants to pretend. The reason this time around her response was SO POWERFUL is because she's realizing she won't be able to do that anymore, that this is the start of a hard road for her. So I have no problem with this. If I were trying to run from something my whole life, and then someone forced the issue in a way I could no longer avoid, I'd try to thrash my way out too. It's like an intervention, or trapping a wild animal in a cage. Eventually with my perseverance & our sessions, she'll calm down & have to decide finally which way she can go. And for that I can be patient. 3. Yes, I chose her at THE AGE OF 17 for all those reasons and more. The difference is I'm not 17 anymore, and in the ensuing years I have become a different person who wants different things, who no longer wants to recreate my old family life. We as a couple are now in the death throes of that precisely BECAUSE I HAVE learned a new kind of healthy. 4. You must be selectively reading to be able to say I'm not uncomfortable with this. Just because I'm used to it doesn't mean I'm comfortable with it. The whole reason she's fighting tooth & nail is because she knows I'm DONE with this kind of approach. 5. No question she wants me to betray myself, and I'm sure somewhere in her she is still holding out hope for that, and holding onto the notion that she can get me to go along again as I've always done. And each time I insist on working this out for real, she will either start to break down & realize she has to change her approach too, or she will run. Either way my situation will be better. 6. I'm patient for many reasons, but especially because I know her. She will bounce back from her hurt & fear, and tell me how she really feels. I will stick to my guns, and I will NOT agree to NOT talk about this stuff in therapy. If that's a deal breaker for her, then so be it, she can go. What I think you're missing is that I NOW HOLD THE POWER. She knows she needs to make a decision, and she knows I won't back down. 7. I agree with most of the last few paragraphs, in that if she were more well adjusted about sex & how to love & respect me as her partner, she would be handling this differently. She would NOT be a coward. She's got to choose big time here, and my patience is not an indication of self-betrayal or bowing down. It's me giving her EVERY opportunity & generosity, so that whatever she decides it'll be completely from her, and I will be at peace knowing I didn't respond in my usual ham-fisted, passive-aggressive ways, but gave her either the space to find her courage, or enough rope to....
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