2sunny Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 one thing i notice you said - that doesn't sit well with me is several ways you describe honoring the M and honoring your W and the kids. Nick, you really can't honor anyone or anything unless you are honoring self first. and i don't see you honoring self when you are always left unhappy. so, as much as your W seems to be doing things backwards - you are doing this part backwards for yourself... i don't think you are being completely honest with your W - and that is what gets lost in translation. IF she's not changing - let her know it's not going to work. when she does well - tell her you appreciate the change. but be honest. stop pretending. there is a difference between the two, BIG difference. pretending is growing a lie bigger by creating an illusion that things are ok when they are not. but i think you need growth in both areas.
Author NickFeek Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 an occasional hug or kiss is not enough. so when she asks you this - BE HONEST!!!!!!! say it: i want you to suck me dry. i want anal. i want to have sex in the shower. i want a massage. you say you are being honest - but IF you don't ASK for exactly what you want, the way you want it - it's not even fair to her either. TELL HER your sex life together is unacceptable and needs growth and an open mind. read books TOGETHER and try what is suggested in the books! say it Nick! you say you're being honest - but you're not telling her what may help. it seems that maybe IF your sex life were better - you COULD overlook some of these other problems? or is that untrue? To answer your last part first, YES. I could overlook some other problems if we had a healthy & varied sex life. I have told her things I'd like to try. Her answer is usually that I don't make her comfortable enough, that I put too much pressure on her. Sometimes - like with the first two things you mentioned - her answer is no. Other times, she just doesn't want to talk particulars - i.e. she would rather not hear the "details". Which gets us nowhere. I'm deeper into After the Affair now, and it's troubling me. I can see myself gaining lots of insight into how I should be processing things, but at the same time there things mentioned there that SO characterize my wife that it's disturbing. Too much typing lately so I won't get into detail, but the gist of it is that when she's done reading this book, I want to hear that she sees these things in herself. If she can't admit to that, I really don't know where we can go. BUT I'm going to make a greater effort to make sure she sits down and hears me out about the specifics of what I see as a good sex life. And I'm going to ask her to answer me point blank.
Author NickFeek Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 one thing i notice you said - that doesn't sit well with me is several ways you describe honoring the M and honoring your W and the kids. Nick, you really can't honor anyone or anything unless you are honoring self first. and i don't see you honoring self when you are always left unhappy. so, as much as your W seems to be doing things backwards - you are doing this part backwards for yourself... i don't think you are being completely honest with your W - and that is what gets lost in translation. IF she's not changing - let her know it's not going to work. when she does well - tell her you appreciate the change. but be honest. stop pretending. there is a difference between the two, BIG difference. pretending is growing a lie bigger by creating an illusion that things are ok when they are not. but i think you need growth in both areas. I do fall into the trap/pattern of "keeping the peace". Not always, but for a time. And I'd say that, whereas my wife was in peace-keeping mode those two weeks after we had that big fight about me saying I was at work when I was actually out with my friend, now I'VE been in peace-keeping mode since the weekend I told her I was leaving & then backtracked. It seems we've taken turns suppressing our honesty. I know that for me in my current state, it's only going to last so long. And I know your point is this mode shouldn't last at all, that it should be all honesty all the time. I agree in principle, and I see that as a flaw in me - fear of rocking the boat, fear of confrontation, fear of retaliation, etc. All I can say is I can already feel I'm going to need to open up the channels again VERY SOON, because having spent this weekend with my in-laws (including sisters-in-law, nieces, nephews, etc.), I feel more suppressed than in a long time. And the more I read the book and see another week go by with no real change, the more angry & afraid I get that there is a lack of commitment on her part. And like you said in your other post, if I'm not speaking up about what I'm really feeling, then I'm to blame as well. I'm going to need to start taking real notes - from the book(s), from here, from others, from my thoughts in general - because there are too many salient points & thoughts to let them slide.
2sunny Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 big hurdles. her not having an open mind. both of you not speaking your truth. it won't work if you only speak your truth sometimes. and not much from her ever - isn't acceptable when attempting healing of the M. the M isn't really growing or healing - because nothing is being done. did she talk a lot to her family? is she capable of it - and just doesn't do that with you - when it is you she should be telling how she feels instead of her family? if she's telling them, and not you - that is a form of betrayal in itself. what good does it do to tell them when she should tell you? and the sex life - buy her a vibrator... and use it regularly on her!!!! she need to learn why she wants to have sex and how it can feel good. every night... get her to orgasm with a vibrator. she should be willing and can at least try DOING that!!!!! buy a small , slim one to start with. get her muscles used to entry... and get her feeling what it's all about! go tomorrow and purchase one, get lube! tell her tomorrow night to set aside time for fun with you. tell her it's an order.
2sunny Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 keeping the peace gives permission for things to stay the same... just saying...
Author NickFeek Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 big hurdles. her not having an open mind. both of you not speaking your truth. it won't work if you only speak your truth sometimes. and not much from her ever - isn't acceptable when attempting healing of the M. the M isn't really growing or healing - because nothing is being done. did she talk a lot to her family? is she capable of it - and just doesn't do that with you - when it is you she should be telling how she feels instead of her family? if she's telling them, and not you - that is a form of betrayal in itself. what good does it do to tell them when she should tell you? and the sex life - buy her a vibrator... and use it regularly on her!!!! she need to learn why she wants to have sex and how it can feel good. every night... get her to orgasm with a vibrator. she should be willing and can at least try DOING that!!!!! buy a small , slim one to start with. get her muscles used to entry... and get her feeling what it's all about! go tomorrow and purchase one, get lube! tell her tomorrow night to set aside time for fun with you. tell her it's an order. I don't think she talked much to her family. In fact we're both really itching to get out of here (leaving after dinner tonight). We had lunch together today & were able to talk over some stuff. But I usually get the feeling that she's so overwhelmed or distracted that I can't get very far. Still I was ablel to say some things that I felt she needed to hear. You know, the vibrator is something that is like 1000% out of her realm of existence, but I might get one anyway just to see how she responds. My gut is it's going to be a total no go. There's no real playfulness in any aspect of our sex life, something else I've only experienced once in my life. I agree these are all big hurdles. Right now the things that are keeping us on the same track even a little are: 1. We both want to give this a try; 2. We both still love each other; 3. We are hearing each other even through all the muck & mire, and even if it's not a constant stream. I did end up taking a ton of notes last night, some of which I shared with her already. I'm getting extremely specific about everything, and will be going over this stuff with her this week.
Author NickFeek Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 keeping the peace gives permission for things to stay the same... just saying... That's true, and that's why it bothers me when I do that. It's also why I can't do it for very long. What's interesting though is that the same holds true for her. So if you think about it, it seems like in the past even if she suspected something, and even if she knew I was unhappy/unfulfilled, she would always rather keep the peace. Is that some kind of tacit agreement that as long as I don't bother her I can find my own way to be happy? Or is that just avoidance & self delusion & fear? Or both? Last week was not great. Neither was the weekend. But spending so much time with the in-laws has prompted both of us to want to reconnect, no matter how hard that might be. This week has started out more promising. We will be talking more, getting more specific - which I hope means she can be more honest about what she needs, what she can & can't do, etc. And I expect the week will culminate in a fruitful session on Thursday.
2sunny Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 (edited) Is that some kind of tacit agreement that as long as I don't bother her I can find my own way to be happy? Or is that just avoidance & self delusion & fear? Or both? why don't you ask her? it MAY be that she really doesn't care enough to bother - and doesn't want to make the effort to change anything - even IF it's bad - and even IF it means you aren't happy. also - what exactly did SHE say amongst all the talk you two have been doing? what is her plan of ACTION to CHANGE her end of it? or is she just waiting for YOu to change - while she keeps her end the same? IF you haven't asked - i'd ask immediately - cuz IF she doesn't have an idea that SHE is supposed to change right along with you - there's no change that's going to be happening here. start asking - point blank - HONEST questions! then write down her specific answers and date them. and i can't comprehend a gal her age that won't use a vibrator. she is in need of an ORGASM!!! an orgasm would motivate her to want sex more often. use it on the outside IF that's all she can do - but she needs to learn how to get satisfaction in her sex life... spark the fire - for lack of a better term. We had lunch together today & were able to talk over some stuff. But I usually get the feeling that she's so overwhelmed or distracted that I can't get very far. i think it's a ploy tactic to avoid you and making progress. she's away... on a holiday weekend... no damn need to "feel distracted" = i'd be sick and tired of it Nick... and you should be too. if she can't stay in the moment and enjoy a weekend with you - something is just wrong with her. i know men in high placed jobs - that fly all over the world - and when we get together with them - they are present and enjoying the moment. and their wives don't tell me they ignore the home life either... even separate time zones never keeps them from keeping active within the family/friends life they have. they show good balance by enjoying the moment. get honest... start asking the hard and REAL questions. Edited July 5, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 why don't you ask her? it MAY be that she really doesn't care enough to bother - and doesn't want to make the effort to change anything - even IF it's bad - and even IF it means you aren't happy. You know what, I WILL ask her. She'll think I'm crazy and/or get pissed, but I have nothing to lose. Wait - I know exactly how she'll respond, because I've gone over this with her so many times in the past. She will put it back on me. She'll say I don't really know her or what she's capable of, and that I've never given her a chance. That my behavior past & present makes it difficult for her to WANT to work on our intimacy issues. And so the answer is I am basically being punished for not understanding her, and OF COURSE she is not just tacitly agreeing that I can be happy however I need to be. -- I'm putting lots of words in her mouth, and will certainly give her a chance to respond for real & hope she does NOT answer this way. But assuming she does (because she always has), any advice about how to counter this???? also - what exactly did SHE say amongst all the talk you two have been doing? what is her plan of ACTION to CHANGE her end of it? or is she just waiting for YOu to change - while she keeps her end the same? IF you haven't asked - i'd ask immediately - cuz IF she doesn't have an idea that SHE is supposed to change right along with you - there's no change that's going to be happening here. She is still extremely wrapped up in her hurt, and in the sadness of our situation, and in the bad things I've done. So anything she says is related to those things. Usually when I mention something I think needs changing, she draws inward & starts to cry. She & I are reading the same things now, by design. An article in yesterdays NY Times Magazine about infidelity. After the Affair. And eventually Marriage Confidential. I want her to read things that describe BOTH SIDES of this so hopefully, between the reading, our discussions and the therapist, she will start to awaken to her responsibility in the state of our marriage before the infidelity. I can't imagine getting a straight answer from her on anything until she's fully in touch with her side of the wrongness. start asking - point blank - HONEST questions! then write down her specific answers and date them. I am going to keep on my current streak and write down as much as possible from now on. Too many thoughts & words are going around for me to remember them all. and i can't comprehend a gal her age that won't use a vibrator. she is in need of an ORGASM!!! an orgasm would motivate her to want sex more often. use it on the outside IF that's all she can do - but she needs to learn how to get satisfaction in her sex life... spark the fire - for lack of a better term. Well she's never masturbated once in her life, and I'm almost positive has no desire or interest in that. I don't remember her ever really touching herself even during sex. So to jump to a vibrator would be a pretty amazing step for her to take. I'm going to bring up the whole "get in touch with your body" subject again, but I doubt it will get anywhere. i think it's a ploy tactic to avoid you and making progress. she's away... on a holiday weekend... no damn need to "feel distracted" = i'd be sick and tired of it Nick... and you should be too. if she can't stay in the moment and enjoy a weekend with you - something is just wrong with her. i know men in high placed jobs - that fly all over the world - and when we get together with them - they are present and enjoying the moment. and their wives don't tell me they ignore the home life either... even separate time zones never keeps them from keeping active within the family/friends life they have. they show good balance by enjoying the moment. get honest... start asking the hard and REAL questions. I get sick & tired in spurts. I think the whole idea of what I've been enduring for so long is SO overwhelming that I can't live with it every day, so I need to numb myself or distract myself. And then when that reality hits me again it just takes hold of me like fire & it's not good, because it usually comes out defensively or with other verbal aggression. Not conducive to a balanced conversation. I wasn't like this for most of this year, which was unusual for me. Then after recent events I felt us sliding back into old patterns. But there's a hard rain coming. I don't usually agree with the whole premeditated thing, but regarding her "distraction" I think you may be right. I think she shuts down and/or turns away or inward anytime I bring up something that forces the issue of her needing to examine herself & her behavior. The only way I can see of getting her out of that is for me to ask hard & specific questions, just like you said. The notes I took last night included a bunch of those. It helps me to write stuff out first so I can be clearer when I speak, so I'm going to revise until I can excise all the wishy-washiness and just cut straight to the heart. ...I was thinking on our ride home from her family's house tonight: I really really don't want this marriage to end or this family to be separated. But that desire is bumping right up against the reality that her personal growth in intimacy etc. has been SO stunted that I have NEVER felt like I've had a real adult relationship. And as much as I want things to stay intact here, I can no longer live without that, not now that I know even a tiny bit what it could be like. THIS is what I'm going to tell her. And I'll add that if she really loves me as she says she does, she'll WANT to work on this - with me and for herself. If after that she is still not sure she can do it, and not even the therapy can convince her, then our sessions are going to take on a whole different purpose.
2sunny Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 i think the first hard question i'd ask her would be: why do you say you love when it never feels like it? also: why do you not make it your priority to want to be with me why does it seem like a chore for you to get close to me, to touch me to have intimacy and enough time together to make that our priority why do you not recognize your part (the way you participated) in this marriage why do we not have any fun and excitement with sex - why is that not allowed why won't you find out why we can't have easy penetration so we can enjoy sex together why won't you blow me or consider anal if i can't penetrate vaginally why can't you touch and kiss me more often why can't we spend a bunch of time together finding other couples to go out and have fun with us why can't we take a few night classes together - like ceramics or a literature class why can't i watch you play with yourself - i want to learn what YOU think makes YOU feel good when you get horny what can i do to grow our relationship closer - what WILL you participate in with me when can we have a weekend away without your phone there used to be a poster here who loved his wife - but he would tell her exactly how he wanted things... and he also told her how much he loved her - but there were definitely certain things he wanted from her... while she ignored his needs. he point blank told her - hey, i love you, and i need this, and IF you aren't going to do it let me know, because if you won't, i want it from someone else then. THAT was total honesty. guess what? she started doing the things he wanted and needed. he also did things for her. being stunted isn't living. having a closed mind isn't living. to live is to open the mind and consider anything... living out of fear is just backwards. i can't possibly understand why it needs to be so hard... and since she knows it's inadequate, why she's unwilling to DO differently. leaving things the same will always get you the same. i FULLY think she intends to leave everything the same. really, what has changed since you've been to two counseling sessions? WHEN the hell does she think she's going to START doing everything opposite? IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE MINUTE YOU SAID YOU WERE LEAVING! she holds the power Nick = and i don't think she's intending to change a thing from her end. i hope i'm wrong... i've never wanted to be more wrong on these threads. i can't imagine what she lives for - to work more? to make more money? i guess so... it's a sick way to exist. shutting out the world for a job. it's cruel to te kids too. unacceptable all the way around.
2sunny Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 i really do think she may have been sexually molested/invaded when she was younger. her mindset and emotions (non emotions) regarding sex is just way out of what is healthy. and to never have touch of self, or learned how to make herself sexually satisfied is really beyond belief. even kids know how to get pleasure on their own. some event... must have happened... she may never talk of it - but she seems to be in full trauma mode = stuffed it so far down - and denied to herself for so long - always saying she'd never admit it (or tell her secret) - that she may never allow herself any pleasure in this arena because it only reminds her of how she betrays herself with any act sexually at all. the meaning she may have assigned to sex - in her mind - only relates to what may have happened when she was younger. some trauma counselors can get it out... some also use hypnotizing methods and EMDR to help with what the patient has blocked from the mind. if it's true... any of this cannot be fixed by you. if she's not going to talk of it to the counselor (and IF it did happen) your sex life isn't likely to ever change. she will resist until she dies. she would expect YOU to sacrifice any pleasure with sex right along with her. her mind being so shut off is just so out of balance for a gal that knows she's going to need to change and grow if the M is to be resurrected. she's certainly not doing you any favors by living this way - and she isn't intending to help you either... so now we have two people unhappy and no change at all being done. yep, at this point - april, may, june and now starting with july... and more than 1000 posts here - and not a damn thing has hardly changed except two counseling appts with no outcome from any of it. if you get to 80 and things are the same - only blame yourself at this point Nick, because you've been told this whole thread how to make change happen - and it hasn't - and you still stand there finding it all ok - because you are afraid her feelings might get hurt when you're honest with her. it's actually more cruel to NOT be honest! honesty doesn't need to be mean - you simply say - i'm not diggin' this - or this doesn't work for me at all... what are we going to change here since it isn't working? write down her answers to what changes will happen and post them on the fridge with the date. when the change doesn't happen - point out what the agreement was for change. start NOW. or you will find yourself in the same place another 10 years down the road.
soserious1 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Nick, in order for you to have the best chance of being heard successfully you might want to consider acknowledging your part in all of this & by your part I'm not talking about your infidelity. IMHO there's a conspiracy of silence in your marriage that's been going on from the beginning and it involves both of you. You've shared that you were unable to consummate the marriage for 2 years, not for anything Nick but appointments should have been made & kept immediately following the honeymoon to either get to the root of this problem and fix it or to seek an attorney to begin the process of annulling the marriage. By not stepping up and saying "Whoa, I love you but I didn't get married to stay celibate" immediately you've signaled a tactic acceptance of a terribly limited intimate life. Same thing goes for her career, you married her knowing she wished to practice law & knew going in that lawyers work horrific hours if they are to have any hope of making partner. You wife is most likely acting like she's been hit over the head by a two by four in your discussions because she has, to her mind she's filling her end of the unspoken deal, to work hard,succeed, provide for you and the kids. If it were me, I think I'd begin any discussion by acknowledging the unspoken rules of the marriage that we'd been operating under, I'd state openly that the sexual dysfunction bothered you deeply but at the time you were young, you felt it could & would be worked on & that even if the sex wasn't perfect you loved her enough that you could overlook the issue. I'd just quietly tell her that even though it breaks my heart that I couldn't live this way anymore, that the unspoken rules of engagement between you two, the very foundations of this marriage need to be dragged into the light of day, discussed and a solution found or a divorce sought. Nick,I just think approaching her with open acknowledgment that you're a co-creator in the unspoken ground rules of the marriage, that those rules are unhealthy for BOTH of you & should never have been accepted or settled for would be the better way to go. You were once 2 young people returning from a sexless honeymoon faced with 3 choices, fix this, get an annulment or live with it in hopes that it goes away. The two young people are now in the prime of their lives, the issue hasn't been fixed and one partner is no longer able or willing to pretend that this is going to go away. The question now is basically same as it was the day you got back from your honeymoon, is she unhappy enough to try to fix this with you or is divorce the only solution?
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 i hope i'm wrong... i've never wanted to be more wrong on these threads. i can't imagine what she lives for - to work more? to make more money? i guess so... it's a sick way to exist. shutting out the world for a job. I copied most of those questions into my notes, and plan to ask some of them next time we talk. Not all apply, but mostly they're right on the money. I appreciate you wanting to be wrong, and you know I feel the same way. But I think we both know that I may be asking for some impossible things. I've gotten so desperate to try to reconcile the two warring sides of my feelings for her that I've been reading up on "alternative" marriages. I think, aside from my fear & missteps, what's mainly kept me from leaving her is I've never been sure it's worth it to ditch an otherwise good relationship for sex problems. And if we are both right that she can't go where I need her to go, and if I still have a problem envisioning myself without her, is there a compromise? She is not as mercenary as you're painting her. I think she is a stuck person. She is frozen in ways she's never been able to address, and has major self esteem issues. So she uses things like work & money to overcompensate. I know in her heart she wants more than to be a worker bee. She is going to need to face all this soon or risk losing me.
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 i really do think she may have been sexually molested/invaded when she was younger. her mindset and emotions (non emotions) regarding sex is just way out of what is healthy. and to never have touch of self, or learned how to make herself sexually satisfied is really beyond belief. even kids know how to get pleasure on their own. some event... must have happened... she may never talk of it - but she seems to be in full trauma mode = stuffed it so far down - and denied to herself for so long - always saying she'd never admit it (or tell her secret) - that she may never allow herself any pleasure in this arena because it only reminds her of how she betrays herself with any act sexually at all. the meaning she may have assigned to sex - in her mind - only relates to what may have happened when she was younger. some trauma counselors can get it out... some also use hypnotizing methods and EMDR to help with what the patient has blocked from the mind. if it's true... any of this cannot be fixed by you. if she's not going to talk of it to the counselor (and IF it did happen) your sex life isn't likely to ever change. she will resist until she dies. she would expect YOU to sacrifice any pleasure with sex right along with her. her mind being so shut off is just so out of balance for a gal that knows she's going to need to change and grow if the M is to be resurrected. she's certainly not doing you any favors by living this way - and she isn't intending to help you either... so now we have two people unhappy and no change at all being done. yep, at this point - april, may, june and now starting with july... and more than 1000 posts here - and not a damn thing has hardly changed except two counseling appts with no outcome from any of it. if you get to 80 and things are the same - only blame yourself at this point Nick, because you've been told this whole thread how to make change happen - and it hasn't - and you still stand there finding it all ok - because you are afraid her feelings might get hurt when you're honest with her. it's actually more cruel to NOT be honest! honesty doesn't need to be mean - you simply say - i'm not diggin' this - or this doesn't work for me at all... what are we going to change here since it isn't working? write down her answers to what changes will happen and post them on the fridge with the date. when the change doesn't happen - point out what the agreement was for change. start NOW. or you will find yourself in the same place another 10 years down the road. I wish I had written down her answers the first 20 times we did this . I recall especially one conversation a couple of months ago in which I was very specific. My memory is vague about what her answer was, and I think it's because she never really answered. It was somewhere between - I'm not sure I can give you what you need, you are as much at fault in this as I am, and silence. This time around - this week - I'm going to make sure I document her answers. I have promised her I will never cheat again, and I know in my heart I will not. But the longer this goes on, and the less hope and/or change regarding our sex life, the harder it is for me to be soooo left out in the cold. A big change has to come. As for addressing any potential abuse, that's going to be a delicate operation. I want her to feel safe enough with the therapist that she gets more & more open, and my concern is that if I bring this up - and if the therapist is convinced it's worth talking about (and I know she will be) - I don't want her to feel ganged up on. I'm going to answer the next post, because I think this kind of leads right into it.
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Nick, in order for you to have the best chance of being heard successfully you might want to consider acknowledging your part in all of this & by your part I'm not talking about your infidelity. IMHO there's a conspiracy of silence in your marriage that's been going on from the beginning and it involves both of you. You've shared that you were unable to consummate the marriage for 2 years, not for anything Nick but appointments should have been made & kept immediately following the honeymoon to either get to the root of this problem and fix it or to seek an attorney to begin the process of annulling the marriage. By not stepping up and saying "Whoa, I love you but I didn't get married to stay celibate" immediately you've signaled a tactic acceptance of a terribly limited intimate life. Same thing goes for her career, you married her knowing she wished to practice law & knew going in that lawyers work horrific hours if they are to have any hope of making partner. You wife is most likely acting like she's been hit over the head by a two by four in your discussions because she has, to her mind she's filling her end of the unspoken deal, to work hard,succeed, provide for you and the kids. If it were me, I think I'd begin any discussion by acknowledging the unspoken rules of the marriage that we'd been operating under, I'd state openly that the sexual dysfunction bothered you deeply but at the time you were young, you felt it could & would be worked on & that even if the sex wasn't perfect you loved her enough that you could overlook the issue. I'd just quietly tell her that even though it breaks my heart that I couldn't live this way anymore, that the unspoken rules of engagement between you two, the very foundations of this marriage need to be dragged into the light of day, discussed and a solution found or a divorce sought. Nick,I just think approaching her with open acknowledgment that you're a co-creator in the unspoken ground rules of the marriage, that those rules are unhealthy for BOTH of you & should never have been accepted or settled for would be the better way to go. You were once 2 young people returning from a sexless honeymoon faced with 3 choices, fix this, get an annulment or live with it in hopes that it goes away. The two young people are now in the prime of their lives, the issue hasn't been fixed and one partner is no longer able or willing to pretend that this is going to go away. The question now is basically same as it was the day you got back from your honeymoon, is she unhappy enough to try to fix this with you or is divorce the only solution? This is just so incredibly on point, and it speaks to one of the MAJOR problems I've had with discussing this, which is how do I avoid painting her into a corner & eliciting the same answers & defensiveness she always gives. One of my beliefs about long term relationships is that much of the way a couple interacts is often stuck in the way it was first established. So in many ways we have always been like teenagers trying to sort through a delicate & uncomfortable issue. And while I have moved on personally from that mindset, our way of handling it as a couple has not. This approach you suggest is a great way to sidestep all that. Though I DID suggest sex help & counseling & at the very least talking to friends & family way back in '92-94, I DID NOT push for it. Nor did I make any changes that would have compelled her to push for it. To my shame, I retreated into porn, strip clubs, phone sex, etc. So the way you've stated all this is very accurate, and is something I'm going to copy and then paraphrase, so that I MYSELF don't run the risk of falling back into old & ineffective patterns of communication. In fact, I'm copying this whole post. It's had the odd effect of both giving me encouragement & hope for a better way to talk AND opening my heart to both sadness and compassion.
soserious1 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 This is just so incredibly on point, and it speaks to one of the MAJOR problems I've had with discussing this, which is how do I avoid painting her into a corner & eliciting the same answers & defensiveness she always gives. One of my beliefs about long term relationships is that much of the way a couple interacts is often stuck in the way it was first established. So in many ways we have always been like teenagers trying to sort through a delicate & uncomfortable issue. And while I have moved on personally from that mindset, our way of handling it as a couple has not. This approach you suggest is a great way to sidestep all that. Though I DID suggest sex help & counseling & at the very least talking to friends & family way back in '92-94, I DID NOT push for it. Nor did I make any changes that would have compelled her to push for it. To my shame, I retreated into porn, strip clubs, phone sex, etc. So the way you've stated all this is very accurate, and is something I'm going to copy and then paraphrase, so that I MYSELF don't run the risk of falling back into old & ineffective patterns of communication. In fact, I'm copying this whole post. It's had the odd effect of both giving me encouragement & hope for a better way to talk AND opening my heart to both sadness and compassion. Nick, I thought long and hard on this, I reread the entire thread when suddenly it hit me that both of you accepted as valid a marriage that you weren't able to consummate, when neither of you insisted on immediate therapy or help you both set the unspoken rules for the marriage, she escapes into her work, you've escaped into porn, strip clubs etc. Sprinkle in 3 kids, fiscal struggles and tons of guilt all around and You are BOTH suffering here. IMHO, your marital problems didn't start with her work hours, they didn't start with your affair. They started with a couple who could not connect sexually at the altar and rather than face that painful reality head on silently agreed to side step the issue. When you guys took your vows you both said "I do" but since day one those vows really have been "I don't" and you've both bought into it. I don't know much but it seems to me that this is the key to beginning to fix things, why did you not insist on immediate treatment? were you guys afraid of telling your families you'd made a mistake? were you afraid that if you lost her that you would never find anybody else to love who was as good as her? Did you feel the sexual problem was in any way related to your approach etc? Why did the two of you accept a marriage that legally really wasn't a marriage? My heart hurts for you both, know that you are in my thoughts
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Nick, I thought long and hard on this, I reread the entire thread when suddenly it hit me that both of you accepted as valid a marriage that you weren't able to consummate, when neither of you insisted on immediate therapy or help you both set the unspoken rules for the marriage, she escapes into her work, you've escaped into porn, strip clubs etc. Sprinkle in 3 kids, fiscal struggles and tons of guilt all around and You are BOTH suffering here. IMHO, your marital problems didn't start with her work hours, they didn't start with your affair. They started with a couple who could not connect sexually at the altar and rather than face that painful reality head on silently agreed to side step the issue. When you guys took your vows you both said "I do" but since day one those vows really have been "I don't" and you've both bought into it. I don't know much but it seems to me that this is the key to beginning to fix things, why did you not insist on immediate treatment? were you guys afraid of telling your families you'd made a mistake? were you afraid that if you lost her that you would never find anybody else to love who was as good as her? Did you feel the sexual problem was in any way related to your approach etc? Why did the two of you accept a marriage that legally really wasn't a marriage? My heart hurts for you both, know that you are in my thoughts Wow, can't believe you reread the whole thread. You are very kind. A million answers, and all from so long ago that they're hard to keep straight. For her - she is highly motivated by how others perceive her, so no matter how much I insisted we talk to family & friends and/or get professional help, she insisted even more strongly that we keep it between us. At the time I was so young & unsure of myself, and yes feeling very guilty about my "extracurricular" behavior, that I followed her directive 100%. No question that set the standard for our marriage, and although I shifted gears a couple years later & sought out help & talk & other HEALTHY ways to deal with things, I still continued my other subversive behavior basically until we had kids - which served to both satiate some of the physical (though not emotional) need AND keep me feeling guilty enough that I believed I did not deserve better. A vicious but safe cycle. I absolutely felt (and still have a much lesser feeling of this today) that the way I handled things was not good. And I don't mean just the porn, etc., but what I was doing in bed. My inability at the time to find my backbone and seek help despite her protestations. My inability to be aggressive enough to push through her resistance. My inability to regulate my emotions, so that I'd often be passive-aggressive with my words & actions. I was NOT THEN the person I became through therapy & basic growing up. And yes, since we had gotten together at age 17, she was ALL I KNEW regarding love & female companionship. And I was always so twisted around & afraid of sex that her avoidance of it was probably one thing that drew me to her. It was an easy out for me not to have to explore & understand my sexuality. I was HUGELY afraid of women from a very early age, and also HUGELY attracted to them. So as an adolescent and even before, I was in a constant state of conflict. Her "chaste sexiness" resolved that for me in a very simple way. Which was fine pre-marriage, since we had decided to remain virgins. Not fine, but not nearly the same source of conflict it would become. The combination of us finally being "allowed" to have sex and me beginning to understand myself better turned a small and temporarily resolved problem into a wildfire that I was afraid would burn up our entire relationship. So, like her and like you've stated, I agreed tacitly to sweep it under the rug so as to "save" the rest of our love & marriage. I contend to this day it was only because I was a month or so away from turning 26 that I "forced the issue" so to speak and finally broke through her real and metaphorical wall. Something about being a virgin past 25 made me sick. Now here we are, and although you & 2sunny are right that nothing has changed tangibly/physically since then, what HAS changed is that I have been repeatedly bringing this up for months, making sure she understands each time that there will be no more of how we used to handle this, that I will find fulfillment one way or another. I'm no poster child for The Backbone Society - you can see how long it's taken me to get here & how things still have not changed. But what I can assure myself, her and all of you is that I will not allow my life to continue this way, no matter how hard it makes the next step of our life. And your suggested approach is going to help that a LOT. I also want to repeat a quote from After the Affair that I felt was SO SALIENT I emailed it to her: Beware of spinning “enabling fictions” – false narratives that make you think everything’s all right when it’s not, and lull you into choosing “perpetual forgiveness over the possibility of change.” I believe we have always kept each other at arm’s length with our competing “enabling fictions” and “perpetual forgivenesses”. We are both practitioners of this. When she read it this morning she had to call me. Unfortunately her response was two-fold: 1. Please don't send emails like that to my work address; and 2. When you send me things like this it makes me feel like you're saying "Deal with this or else!" I was careful to acknowledge that I think we BOTH do this, but it still seemed to her like I was attacking. So I decided that a midday phone convo from our offices was not the best time to get into it, and told her that we'd pick up on this in more detail tonight.
2sunny Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 man oh man soserious - that is some useful and awesome insight! and i agree - the "silence" and "going along with what is admittedly inadequate" is what has dragged you both along this path. throw in some - let's talk about it and DO nothing different to see if it changes has proved ineffective too. HONESTY - that has been the issue. you two are not honest. get to the counselor and throw the sex thing out there. i know she doesn't want to - but it IS part of the problem. to avoid THAT part is being dishonest too. and promising that you would never cheat again? that's absurd! be honest. you want to cheat. you want to keep your job - it keeps you in close enough proximity with your OW that IF the M falls apart - your OW is there. promising not to cheat again isn't realistic when your W isn't participating with any passion... may never participate with passion - and the OW is at arms length. and porn? is that cheating? phone sex... is that a form of cheating? are you NEVER going to participate with those outlets for your own release, ever again? and i bet you masterbate and think of your OW... is that betraying your W? maybe yes; maybe no to some. to betray self is a twisted way to exist... you still deserve to be happy - what does that look like for YOU? be realistic Nick! sit her down - tell her you MAY NOT NOW have an OW - but YOU love to participate in forms of sex outside the M... and it keeps you from connecting to her - knowing she doesn't want or intend to participate just adds fuel to the fire. be honest. she may not be giving you what you want - but YOU are slapping her on the backside by going behind her back and doing what you want... and THAT isn't honest either. she ignores = you do "other things" - it may not now be your OW... but since she ignores i would expect you to get more creative and sneaky with how you vent that sexual frustration. stop promising ANYTHING! you really have nothing close to a M - part of the problem is that you two thought and came to believe that you did have a M - and DO have a M. what you have is convenient... as long as you both play the same old roles you've always played = pretending that it's enough. but now you've decided it's not enough - and it may never change. your usual pattern of communication hasn't brought happiness - quite the opposite. if she's unwilling to address the sex thing and change everything... you can only expect to live like this forever. it could change IF you start being honest. i don't know a man who could live this way. you staying silent and going along with it has her mind thinking you are willing to accept it as "enough" - start telling her it's not enough at all! she isn't thinking "how can i make sure Nick is happy" - yet you spend so much time and energy making sure her comfort zone stays intact... which is the crux of this problem... she's comfortable - at YOUR expense. was the same when the M started, no? you have helped reinforce the negative aspects of the M - and you have helped grow them bigger. all this by going along with her way - instead of doing what makes you happy as well. you lost track of being true to self, by betraying self in order to please her.
2sunny Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 nothing has changed tangibly/physically since then, what HAS changed is that I have been repeatedly bringing this up for months, making sure she understands each time that there will be no more of how we used to handle this, that I will find fulfillment one way or another. see - you aren't being honest. you keep threatening to need change - but no change happens. IF you are honest - you two haven't changed a thing. tell her that. I believe we have always kept each other at arm’s length with our competing “enabling fictions” and “perpetual forgivenesses”. We are both practitioners of this. When she read it this morning she had to call me. Unfortunately her response was two-fold: 1. Please don't send emails like that to my work address; and 2. When you send me things like this it makes me feel like you're saying "Deal with this or else!" I was careful to acknowledge that I think we BOTH do this, but it still seemed to her like I was attacking. So I decided that a midday phone convo from our offices was not the best time to get into it, and told her that we'd pick up on this in more detail tonight. this is her bumping you back in place - so nothing changes. scolding, of sorts, and making sure that when there is "more talk :rolleyes:" that NO NEW ACTION happens. she certainly is predictable in her quest to keep things the same... while KNOWING this isn't working for you - she isn't budging in her actions... and she's blatantly telling you "stop showing me what i'm not willing to LOOK at - much less something i'm going to have to change" stop talking - and start demanding change happens NOW! she keeps YOU in HER comfort zone - making sure YOU are not happy and SHE is.
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 get to the counselor and throw the sex thing out there. i know she doesn't want to - but it IS part of the problem. to avoid THAT part is being dishonest too. Oh that will definitely be part of our discussion. It's just a matter of when, and unless I'm mistaken about the therapist, the "when" is all up to me. and promising that you would never cheat again? that's absurd! be honest. you want to cheat. you want to keep your job - it keeps you in close enough proximity with your OW that IF the M falls apart - your OW is there. promising not to cheat again isn't realistic when your W isn't participating with any passion... may never participate with passion - and the OW is at arms length. and porn? is that cheating? phone sex... is that a form of cheating? are you NEVER going to participate with those outlets for your own release, ever again? and i bet you masterbate and think of your OW... is that betraying your W? maybe yes; maybe no to some. to betray self is a twisted way to exist... you still deserve to be happy - what does that look like for YOU? be realistic Nick! sit her down - tell her you MAY NOT NOW have an OW - but YOU love to participate in forms of sex outside the M... and it keeps you from connecting to her - knowing she doesn't want or intend to participate just adds fuel to the fire. This gets to the heart of what a person & a couple consider to be cheating. For me, it's contact with any actual human, whether via phone, in a strip club, sexting, video chats, or actual physical contact. I would not call porn cheating, and neither does my wife (though she doesn't like it). I can say I won't cheat because I will not allow our previous situation (our tacit agreement) to be recreated. If, however, I fail in that and that situation IS recreated, then who knows. YES I want to cheat. YES I want to explore my sexuality in ways I've never been able to. YES I want a healthy & well adjusted sex life with some real emotional content. So it's up to ME to make sure we don't repeat the past. I say ME because I'm fairly sure she'd have no problem recreating what we had. I would be part of this company with or without the OW. What we're doing means to much to me to abandon it for any reason. BUT I agree that it's nice to have the OW at arm's length. I have no plans to shorten that length at all, but I'm also so scared & unsure of what my wife is capable of that having the OW even peripherally there is comforting. She knows I don't just wait around for her. She knows I masturbate frequently. I've told her this. It's something that makes her cringe of course. That's how she is. What gets me is that even the "non cheating" stuff has never motivated her to want to connect with me more, to want to say - Hey, I should be the one doing that. I know that now, after my affair, is not a good time at all to expect her to want to be intimate. But before that? And down the line? What possible additional excuse could she give? she ignores = you do "other things" - it may not now be your OW... but since she ignores i would expect you to get more creative and sneaky with how you vent that sexual frustration. Again, I will not allow myself to be in a situation where I'd feel the need to be sneaky & creative. I've been there so many times in so many ways, and it's exhausting & soul-sucking. It's up to me to stay on top of this & not take NO ANSWER for an answer. stop promising ANYTHING! you really have nothing close to a M - part of the problem is that you two thought and came to believe that you did have a M - and DO have a M. what you have is convenient... as long as you both play the same old roles you've always played = pretending that it's enough. but now you've decided it's not enough - and it may never change. your usual pattern of communication hasn't brought happiness - quite the opposite. Agreed, and I'm working against the tides (in me & from her) to change that pattern. I DO think we have a marriage. It's a very flawed one, and missing a couple of key components. But you can't discount the good things we've always had, the things that have kept us together. If we really didn't have a marriage at all, this would have ended long ago. if she's unwilling to address the sex thing and change everything... you can only expect to live like this forever. it could change IF you start being honest. i don't know a man who could live this way. you staying silent and going along with it has her mind thinking you are willing to accept it as "enough" - start telling her it's not enough at all! she isn't thinking "how can i make sure Nick is happy" - yet you spend so much time and energy making sure her comfort zone stays intact... which is the crux of this problem... she's comfortable - at YOUR expense. was the same when the M started, no? you have helped reinforce the negative aspects of the M - and you have helped grow them bigger. all this by going along with her way - instead of doing what makes you happy as well. you lost track of being true to self, by betraying self in order to please her. Actually things WERE this way at the beginning of the M. By then we had already been together 6 years, so we'd well established our faulty pattern. What's upsetting her so much lately is that I'm no longer completely going along with this. Yes, I do slide back into it too often, but just as often I'm challenging the pattern, and it's really scaring her - as it should. No, at least in the realms of sex & quality time, she does not put much effort into finding out what makes me happy. And she so closes off herself that she doesn't allow me to put in that effort for her either. Being here now, I can't imagine how I thought I could live like this forever. I can see how the cheating was me giving myself a wake-up call, forcing this issue in a way that could not be ignored. And yet months later here we are finding creative ways to ignore this giant elephant. I'm going to make a point of bringing up sex at our next session.
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 see - you aren't being honest. you keep threatening to need change - but no change happens. IF you are honest - you two haven't changed a thing. tell her that. this is her bumping you back in place - so nothing changes. scolding, of sorts, and making sure that when there is "more talk :rolleyes:" that NO NEW ACTION happens. she certainly is predictable in her quest to keep things the same... while KNOWING this isn't working for you - she isn't budging in her actions... and she's blatantly telling you "stop showing me what i'm not willing to LOOK at - much less something i'm going to have to change" stop talking - and start demanding change happens NOW! she keeps YOU in HER comfort zone - making sure YOU are not happy and SHE is. I am willing to demand that change happens, and I've gone this route before. But A. her resistance is incredible; and B. true change has to come from within. I have been working to find ways to get inside her enough that she can start to change from within. You or someone else here said - and I agree - that to force change from without doesn't work. I can start us on a pattern of behavior, but if she's not feeling it, and worse not feeling why it's important - VITAL - that we do that, then it won't last.
Afishwithabike Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Nick, Because of its length of this thread, I can't remember whether your wife ever saw a medical professional regarding her sexual issues (i.e. pain with penetration, unwillingness to explore her sexuality). I remember you saying that having sex with her was like having sex with a 13 year old. I I recall your brother gave you some information on what could be causing the reluctance to have sex. Did you give that information to your wife and did she ever follow up with a doctor? Given all that you've said so far about her, my guess is she would be 1) horrified you talked about it with your brother, the doctor and 2) she won't seek professional help. One of my friends who is a therapist says if a couple can talk about sexual issues between them, they can talk about anything else in the relationship.
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Nick, Because of its length of this thread, I can't remember whether your wife ever saw a medical professional regarding her sexual issues (i.e. pain with penetration, unwillingness to explore her sexuality). I remember you saying that having sex with her was like having sex with a 13 year old. I I recall your brother gave you some information on what could be causing the reluctance to have sex. Did you give that information to your wife and did she ever follow up with a doctor? Given all that you've said so far about her, my guess is she would be 1) horrified you talked about it with your brother, the doctor and 2) she won't seek professional help. One of my friends who is a therapist says if a couple can talk about sexual issues between them, they can talk about anything else in the relationship. No, she refuses to seek professional help. I told her about the diagnosis, and she kind of just brushed it off. As for #1, I spared her the knowledge that I got the diagnosis from my brother. I had also done lots of research myself on it, so his chiming in was really just confirming what I'd already discovered. And #2 - you're absolutely right, and I don't see that changing. I like what your friend said, and in our case it's probably doubly true. So that's my goal for the week.
worldgonewrong Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 She knows I masturbate frequently. I've told her this. It's something that makes her cringe of course. "Don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love!" - Woody Allen
Author NickFeek Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 "Don't knock masturbation. It's sex with someone I love!" - Woody Allen Love him! Believe me, I'd be in an asylum at this point if not for that option!
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