25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[2sunny]

I don't know, it's hard to believe that there were attraction and the affair started both emotionally and physically, and bang, it ends within months. That's just not common at all.

 

Is this other woman married? Why doesn't she want to carry on when it feels good, or did it?

 

you can read the thread to find out more than you'd ever want to know.

[Goldenspoon]

you can read the thread to find out more than you'd ever want to know.

 

No! It's 66 pages.

[NickFeek]

so we agree - there is no perseverance without the action? if so - you two can start on the action part. or are you two waiting for the instructions from the therapist?

 

have you two been going out together once or twice every week? do things together! movies, dinner, lunch, garden in the yard - go to the nursery to gather plants/flowers together, pick out meals together and plan what you TWO think sounds yummy - then create THAT!

 

the action part is in the DOING. if you don't like some of them - change the lists - but at least you would be implementing some change to see how it might be possible to make it work.

 

Excerpted your post, all of it very good.

 

Well our next session is tomorrow morning, and we're having breakfast before then, so we can talk about goals & such at breakfast, and then see what happens in the session.

 

We haven't had dates per se, but we HAVE been spending more time together. It's a drop in the bucket, but it's a start.

 

So we are doing things. I really don't think it's enough. But I'm reluctant to try to throw everything in at once.

[NickFeek]

I don't know, it's hard to believe that there were attraction and the affair started both emotionally and physically, and bang, it ends within months. That's just not common at all.

 

Is this other woman married? Why doesn't she want to carry on when it feels good, or did it?

 

I agree it's unusual. But she is very dedicated to the company, and we agreed we didn't want to continue something that could potentially tear it apart. No, she's not married, but - and I know this sounds weird - she has a deep respect for marriage and for my wife & children, and felt horrible about what we did. She felt her way of making up for at least part of that was to end things. I'm not saying the attraction ended, but we both agreed whatever it was we were trying to create was false & deceitful and could (and eventually did) hurt lots of people. I would guess that at the time we BOTH wanted it to continue, because it felt good especially on an emotional/companionship level. We just really wanted to reverse course. You can't erase what you did wrong, but you can move forward and try to do what's right.

[NickFeek]

No! It's 66 pages.

 

True on both counts. WAY too much! But I appreciate you asking these questions anyway, because I feel I have a different perspective than I did in April.

[2sunny]

good for counseling - even better for breakfast.

 

keep finding new ways to reconnect. common interest may be the only thing that may work to pull her away from her love of work. start finding out what she may be open to doing together.

[trippi1432]

No! It's 66 pages.

 

 

LOL!!! Sorry...but that was funny!!

[NickFeek]

good for counseling - even better for breakfast.

 

keep finding new ways to reconnect. common interest may be the only thing that may work to pull her away from her love of work. start finding out what she may be open to doing together.

 

The therapist suggested the same thing, among other things. Her schedule makes this such an uphill battle, but I am more insistent about our time together now.

[2sunny]

The therapist suggested the same thing, among other things. Her schedule makes this such an uphill battle, but I am more insistent about our time together now.

 

you can insist all you want... but is your wife willing to DO things differently?

 

what did she say? is she willing to change things - change her schedule that seems to be a road block for progress within the marriage?

[NickFeek]

you can insist all you want... but is your wife willing to DO things differently?

 

what did she say? is she willing to change things - change her schedule that seems to be a road block for progress within the marriage?

 

She is so overwhelmed right now that it's hard to get an answer from her on anything. She's in shut down mode. But she is making more time for us. Not enough yet for me to feel like we can get on top of this mountain of crap, but a good start.

[2sunny]

She is so overwhelmed right now that it's hard to get an answer from her on anything. She's in shut down mode. But she is making more time for us. Not enough yet for me to feel like we can get on top of this mountain of crap, but a good start.

 

staying overwhelmed seems to work for her! it gives her all the reasons not to have to do the work necessary to heal the M.

 

 

we weren't meant to live life being overwhelmed... it's just an excuse to escape reality. a character defect to support the avoiding behavior.

 

 

since she doesn't answer - you have nothing to work with. her lack of commitment to the action part of healing is pathetic, at best.

 

again - i'm just going from your words... i don't pretend to think i'm in her head... but a gal who is MOTIVATED to heal and repair a M gets to the counselor and starts with considering any new ideas to implement with NO RESISTANCE to change everything up...

 

once again she says one thing - we need ACTION that supports what she says. she said she would go - yes - but not answering while shutting down is not going to get any solution accomplished.

 

when i didn't want to be the one to change - and i thought it should all be on my H to change - i stayed quiet... so that i didn't have to make that agreement (with my words) to DO anything different. in that mode, nothing changed = because i never committed with my words what i was or wasn't willing to do.

 

she may be too comfortable to consider any change. most people only change because they are UNCOMFORTABLE! but you keep taking that uncomfortable part away from her - so she's not motivated now...

 

see the vicious cycle? see how you are participating? see how it keeps it stuck? it takes a lot of pretending (negative energy) to keep up with all that pretending...

 

 

seems like you could be getting the same free suggestions here...

 

soooo, you paid money today - for someone to help you - and give you direction - for NEW action... what value do you intend to get out of the money you paid? what is going to change between now and the next time you see the counselor?

 

remember - there is no way to persevere without the action...

[NickFeek]

There's no question that staying overwhelmed, being constantly busy AND shutting down ALL keep her away from the work we need to do. I'm not sure I'd say she's comfortable, just too scared to go where we need to go.

 

Don't worry. The therapist is getting a much more holistic picture of where we've been, where we are, and where we need to go, because we are both there together. And some of what she's saying is already revealing ways we need to change. But I'm still getting lots of great advice here!

 

She has been open about the fact that she is struggling with how much she really wants to go through all this. That's one major thing the therapy will reveal that I don't see her fessing up to otherwise.

[2sunny]

She has been open about the fact that she is struggling with how much she really wants to go through all this. That's one major thing the therapy will reveal that I don't see her fessing up to otherwise.

 

so she is still standing firm on wanting to DO nothing. hmmm she HAS admitted that before - it's nothing new - and seems to be working for her.

 

she's consistent. doesn't matter what it reveals if NOTHING is done to CHANGE it.

 

she's obviously not scared enough... she seems to think standing still will make it go away. that is old behavior. seeing ANY NEW BEHAVIOR would be what we're looking for. anything new!!!! even if it's new - and it's not working - THAT can be changed up too! try anything and everything NEW!!! but to DO nothing new isn't going to make things better... it will stay the same.

 

sitting there talking to someone once a week is all good- but if it doesn't IMPLEMENT change - nothing will change! you will be left with what you always had.

 

so fail! fail trying NEW things! anything! because in the DOING NEW THINGS THAT MAY BRING SOME CHANGE - there is NO FAIL!

 

the ultimate fail is in the NOT trying new things! not DOING new things!

[2sunny]

INTENT is EVERYTHING!

 

at this point - if it were me - i'd be sitting her down and asking her what she intends to DO differently???

 

cause keeping it the same = will get you the same...

 

and IF she expects or intends to DO nothing = you have your answer.

 

what you need to know is - what are her intentions - and what is her plan to DO differently IF things are to change?

 

intent...

[NickFeek]

so she is still standing firm on wanting to DO nothing. hmmm she HAS admitted that before - it's nothing new - and seems to be working for her.

 

she's consistent. doesn't matter what it reveals if NOTHING is done to CHANGE it.

 

she's obviously not scared enough... she seems to think standing still will make it go away. that is old behavior. seeing ANY NEW BEHAVIOR would be what we're looking for. anything new!!!! even if it's new - and it's not working - THAT can be changed up too! try anything and everything NEW!!! but to DO nothing new isn't going to make things better... it will stay the same.

 

sitting there talking to someone once a week is all good- but if it doesn't IMPLEMENT change - nothing will change! you will be left with what you always had.

 

so fail! fail trying NEW things! anything! because in the DOING NEW THINGS THAT MAY BRING SOME CHANGE - there is NO FAIL!

 

the ultimate fail is in the NOT trying new things! not DOING new things!

 

I think it's more accurate to say she now realizes she'll NEED to take action, but is still reluctant and/or afraid to. And yes, the problem is it's because it DOES work for her. As I said, this is going to be an uphill battle. There HAVE been small changes - some with a struggle, others initiated by her. But for us to build something way healthier than what we've had these many years will require so much more.

[NickFeek]

INTENT is EVERYTHING!

 

at this point - if it were me - i'd be sitting her down and asking her what she intends to DO differently???

 

cause keeping it the same = will get you the same...

 

and IF she expects or intends to DO nothing = you have your answer.

 

what you need to know is - what are her intentions - and what is her plan to DO differently IF things are to change?

 

intent...

 

This is something we will do. We BOTH need to express our intentions. I want her to be more assured and comfortable in therapy first, for a million good reasons, AND I think first she needs to get to the point where she actually feels it's worth it to even try. Right now she's still so stuck in the mode of: everything is my fault mostly and what is NOT my fault is not worth changing because she can't trust me & half the time doesn't like me.

 

None of that is unusual for someone who's been betrayed & lied to, and I'm still giving her the space to work through that. But there does have to be a tipping point one way or the other, and that is what I am already seeing therapy leading to. Her breakdown during the session today showed that she still has SO MUCH to bleed out, and that if she can do it with someone who both respects her AND will still call her to task on her end of the issues (and who's not ME ), I believe she is capable of then seeing the light on this.

 

In the mean time we will continue to make changes each week.

 

But since I'm here on this forum, let me say a few more things....

 

I am REALLY dejected right now. She has been SO negative & SO down in general that I'm finding it hard to feel hopeful. And even with the small changes things are still SO frustrating that I'm about ready to burst. I think part of this is because the therapy is stirring up stuff in both of us, and part of it is because I want so badly to see the light at the end of this long, crap infested tunnel that I'm rushing ahead to that feeling & it's conflicting with the current reality.

 

I spoke with one of my oldest friends today, and told him the whole story for the first time. He had cheated on his then girlfriend in 2002. They are now married with two kids, and doing well. So his perspective is unique among my immediate significant people, and shows that with the right kind of approach & action there IS hope.

 

At first he was really adamant that I do everything in my power to repent and win her over (some of which I AM trying to do, though I realize not full tilt), and that I should completely quit the company (I understand this is probably a good thing to do, but I doubt I will do this anytime in the near future because it's one of the few things left outside of my kids that means ANYTHING to me).

 

I then told him more details about our marital history - how it got off to a very rocky start, hit more rocks, then more, then a lull, then kids, then more rocks, etc. And I owned up to all my missteps & more, to be sure I was not painting a one-sided picture. He was so shocked by all this - even moreso than my telling him I cheated - that he basically left the lunch speechless, and could see that though I still should try my best to do right by my wife, it's not as simple as me having effed up (which I know I did in many ways). He also does not see any of this as justifying my behavior (no one should), but he sees better now how someone in my situation could easily jump off that cliff.

 

Now, this is the kind of friend everyone should have, because he is supportive but ALWAYS tells it like it is, never judges but NEVER pulls punches. If an ex-cheater who has improved his life through marriage counseling & lots of hard work & changes with his wife can be that taken aback by our history, I have to believe that once the therapist hears all of this she will also begin to see how tough our situation is, and how culpable in different ways we BOTH are. And that will either compel my wife to FINALLY own up to her responsibilities, or it will scare her away and/or shut her down. Either way, there's the answer.

 

Sorry, had to get that out. I'm just raw & too impatient to wait.

[2sunny]

my hope is that you stop taking all the responsibility for what happened. it happened. when most M couples DECIDE to heal the M and move FORWARD - there is much to realize and much to do.

 

i am a BS - i was with my H 23 years. he cheated at the ten year mark - we decided to work through it... though it was mine to work through - cuz, in looking back... he just wanted me to "get over it" - which i eventually did... with one boundary - IF it ever happened again - he would be gone without a conversation. counseling - didn't prove to be super productive - mainly because he didn't want to find the reason why he cheated - just wanted me to forgive and get back to our old perfect little life. i was forced into forgiving IF i wanted to stay in the M.

 

i DID forgive him and move past it because i wanted the M to heal!

 

when he cheated at the 20 year mark - i was so done!

 

and since - i have learned a lot! experienced a ton. much of the things i've shared here with you - things that DO tend to invoke change when two people want to stay together.

 

but i have to say- she doesn't act like she wants to stay - even though she says it.

 

i've never seen anything like it here... and i've seen a LOT here. she just doesn't seem to have her heart in it at all.

 

so - in a lot of ways i can't see how she thinks it's going to work when she spends more time and energy trying to figure out how NOT to participate in the M - than figuring out how to make a good, solid effort at healing what was broken.

 

yes, you cheated - and i don't normally take the stance i have with you - because i have alot of my own assigned meaning to the cheater... but i tend to set that aside when i come here and go in with no judgment.

 

but several things accumulated before the cheating... things she's still unwilling to change. and that really is a bummer... because for all intent and purposes - she should figure you should still be cheating... because she's still not making any effort to connect with you knowing that's why you felt so alone and dejected enough to stray.

 

so i can't see where she's trying at all. the counseling... i don't hold much hope for her with such a closed mind. IF she's unwilling to open her mind to change... it will never work.

 

 

and so - i don't see you as the typical cheater on these boards... and i can't imagine how a man could possibly live with a woman like that - sex life like that - for even a short while.

 

i'm not trying to sway you on anything... i just don't want you taking on more responsibility and ownership of how you got to this awful place - it does take two - and she is still unwilling to admit that she played a part in it all.

 

you can't make her. she may actually gain a lot of power and hang onto that power - for way longer than you'd like her to.

 

i'd remind her why you did what you did... because she was ignoring you, your needs, your connection, your communication, your intimacy, sex with you was a struggle... i don't know too many married people that would tolerate that in a M - because it isn't a marriage = it's an arrangement. what nationality is she?

 

i have many friends like your buddy... it is a gift to have them.

 

the dejection is not ALL yours to own... in order to feel dejected someone has to be given the power to make you feel that way. i'd stop giving her - and what she is or isn't doing THAT much power.

 

you deserve to be happy Nick. IF she doesn't look like she wants to be happy with you EACH and EVERY single day - find LOTS of ways to become happy all on your own.

 

she essentially leaves you on your own anyway - so show her you can do this without her around... maybe she'll start participating? who knows? maybe not...

 

it's not ALL your fault... so don't take responsibility for all of what has happened. her role in it just looks more glorified - but sneaky and manipulative on the back end out of her own selfish needs. she's cheated for years by being a workaholic... did she not think someone would feel betrayed by her constant absence?

 

she needs to own what her part is - as much as you have owned yours.

 

i doubt her big, perfect ego will allow her to do that though - that is the hurdle i don't think she can get past... she views herself as the perfect one and blames you. stop allowing her to blame you - you didn't make her work all the time - SHE DID THAT.

 

what are your thoughts? i'm rambling now...

Edited July 2, 2011 by 2sunny

[NickFeek]

my hope is that you stop taking all the responsibility for what happened. it happened. when most M couples DECIDE to heal the M and move FORWARD - there is much to realize and much to do.

 

i am a BS - i was with my H 23 years. he cheated at the ten year mark - we decided to work through it... though it was mine to work through - cuz, in looking back... he just wanted me to "get over it" - which i eventually did... with one boundary - IF it ever happened again - he would be gone without a conversation. counseling - didn't prove to be super productive - mainly because he didn't want to find the reason why he cheated - just wanted me to forgive and get back to our old perfect little life. i was forced into forgiving IF i wanted to stay in the M.

 

i DID forgive him and move past it because i wanted the M to heal!

 

when he cheated at the 20 year mark - i was so done!

 

and since - i have learned a lot! experienced a ton. much of the things i've shared here with you - things that DO tend to invoke change when two people want to stay together.

 

but i have to say- she doesn't act like she wants to stay - even though she says it.

 

i've never seen anything like it here... and i've seen a LOT here. she just doesn't seem to have her heart in it at all.

 

so - in a lot of ways i can't see how she thinks it's going to work when she spends more time and energy trying to figure out how NOT to participate in the M - than figuring out how to make a good, solid effort at healing what was broken.

 

yes, you cheated - and i don't normally take the stance i have with you - because i have alot of my own assigned meaning to the cheater... but i tend to set that aside when i come here and go in with no judgment.

 

but several things accumulated before the cheating... things she's still unwilling to change. and that really is a bummer... because for all intent and purposes - she should figure you should still be cheating... because she's still not making any effort to connect with you knowing that's why you felt so alone and dejected enough to stray.

 

so i can't see where she's trying at all. the counseling... i don't hold much hope for her with such a closed mind. IF she's unwilling to open her mind to change... it will never work.

 

 

and so - i don't see you as the typical cheater on these boards... and i can't imagine how a man could possibly live with a woman like that - sex life like that - for even a short while.

 

i'm not trying to sway you on anything... i just don't want you taking on more responsibility and ownership of how you got to this awful place - it does take two - and she is still unwilling to admit that she played a part in it all.

 

you can't make her. she may actually gain a lot of power and hang onto that power - for way longer than you'd like her to.

 

i'd remind her why you did what you did... because she was ignoring you, your needs, your connection, your communication, your intimacy, sex with you was a struggle... i don't know too many married people that would tolerate that in a M - because it isn't a marriage = it's an arrangement. what nationality is she?

 

i have many friends like your buddy... it is a gift to have them.

 

the dejection is not ALL yours to own... in order to feel dejected someone has to be given the power to make you feel that way. i'd stop giving her - and what she is or isn't doing THAT much power.

 

you deserve to be happy Nick. IF she doesn't look like she wants to be happy with you EACH and EVERY single day - find LOTS of ways to become happy all on your own.

 

she essentially leaves you on your own anyway - so show her you can do this without her around... maybe she'll start participating? who knows? maybe not...

 

it's not ALL your fault... so don't take responsibility for all of what has happened. her role in it just looks more glorified - but sneaky and manipulative on the back end out of her own selfish needs. she's cheated for years by being a workaholic... did she not think someone would feel betrayed by her constant absence?

 

she needs to own what her part is - as much as you have owned yours.

 

i doubt her big, perfect ego will allow her to do that though - that is the hurdle i don't think she can get past... she views herself as the perfect one and blames you. stop allowing her to blame you - you didn't make her work all the time - SHE DID THAT.

 

what are your thoughts? i'm rambling now...

 

This is such a great post.

 

I appreciate you giving me more insight into your history. It helps to know what you've been through. It sounds like you gave above & beyond in your relationship, and were absolutely right to do what you did.

 

So you really believe that she acts like she doesn't want to stay? Do you think her behavior is influenced in great part by my infidelity & how she's processing that? I can tell right now she fluctuates from having her heart in it to being checked out, but I can say the same about myself.

 

From about February until a few weeks ago, I was cautious NOT to give her too much power, while still owning what I did. I do think the power balanced shifted the weekend I said I was leaving and then she discovered the old emails. We've BOTH been reeling ever since. I'm also not convinced she's ready to change and take new actions, but I still have faith in the therapy process. She is someone who responds to authority - something I clearly don't have in her eyes.

 

You're right that I'm essentially alone. In fact, I am 1000% certain that if guilt and responsibility had not gotten the better of me, she would never have known about the affair. She was so much in her own world - and I in mine - that I could have been doing just about anything short of drug abuse & crime. I'm not saying it would be right, but this shows how willfully blind she's been all these years, and how her comfort zone has always excluded my deepest needs.

 

The thing is, the greater part of me WANTS to stay. NOT under these conditions, but if given a simple yes/no choice, my answer would be yes. Having said that, I can see this working only three ways: 1. She "sees the light" and understands what she owes this relationship for it to be real & healthy, and then does that; 2. She "sees the light", still doesn't want to change, but agrees to give me license to find satisfaction elsewhere within appropriate & agreed upon boundaries; 3. She does not see the light, and I end up leading a partially clandestine life. Obviously some outcomes are better than others, and this of course does not include the other big outcome which is us separating. But I'm tenacious and I think it will take a whole lot for me to take that step. I almost see ALL three of the above as preferable to that. ALMOST - not quite.

 

I think to get Freudian (not my fave but useful at times), her SUPEREGO is incredibly strong, well developed & sure of itself. Her ego is DECEPTIVELY big - she in many ways does not like herself, and that's a big part of why she has never felt comfortable sharing herself. I'd go so far as to say she barely really knows herself on certain topics. And her ID is practially dead - crushed by the weight of her superego and the fear and need to control of her ego. Reductionist, but illustrative of a lot I think.

 

More thoughts later.

[NickFeek]

To answer two of your questions I missed:

 

She is Irish Catholic. The OW is also Irish Catholic. And they have similar coloring.

 

About me leaving & showing her I can live on my own. I know I can. She's beginning to understand that I know that & that it's absolutely true. For me to actually take that step would be the complete end of the marriage & our family life. I wasn't sure of this earlier on, but having "tested the waters" inadvertently a few weeks ago, I can tell you without a doubt that her stance is there is NOTHING in between marriage & divorce. I.E. my leaving might prove certain things to her, and call up other emotions etc., but it would also be the end.

[2sunny]

I appreciate you giving me more insight into your history. It helps to know what you've been through. It sounds like you gave above & beyond in your relationship, and were absolutely right to do what you did.

 

i don't generally put out my personal info here... but i thought it was important for you to understand that even though i was the BS - i felt since we were to repair and mend the M - that i participate on every level i could to have a great M - which we did in so many ways. after that decision was made - amidst all my pain - i worked hard to grow the love and let go completely of my anger. i was willing to do anything.

 

that is what i'm not seeing here with your W. i could be wrong - but i'm not seeing her willingness to open her mind to the possibilities of growth for the M and a better R with you two. that's a broad brush stroke - as i'm not hearing her side. i wish she'd start doing more than idle talk about it. blaming and staying in the anger doesn't promote healing.

 

 

 

So you really believe that she acts like she doesn't want to stay?

 

her NON ACTION to move forward appears that way to me - but i'm not there. and i'm not in her head. IF you think it's not enough - you should be telling her that.

 

she knows you strayed out of loneliness... yet she still leaves the home environment seeming lonely to you. it's like she says she cares - but she really doesn't care how you feel about it. THAT is not loving behavior. ask her! IF it seems that way - ask her if that is her intention because that is what you are feeling from her non participation. when someone acts like they don't want to be bothered... others feel that energy.

 

Do you think her behavior is influenced in great part by my infidelity & how she's processing that?

 

i'm sure it is. how can it not be? but to leave it all this way isn't working. so when you know something isn't working - most people don't keep doing the same thing knowing their spouse is THAT unhappy. it's a selfish act.

 

yes, you cheated - but now she knows and still isn't attempting to get close to you. why hasn't she tried to find options to the sex you have? has she attempted to at least participate on other levels to get close to you? my H cheated - but i still gave him oral if i had my period and we also opted often to try and enjoy many new things. i'm not understanding why a man gets so motivated to stay and stay when the sex sounds completely unfulfilling.

 

try new things. take a class in becoming more creative with the sex area. practice with each other. find many ways to please each other often - to the point of exhaustion in it's happiest form. i remember many days having "jelly legs" from happy sex. we were very connected. you two should as well. find a million ways to please her. start with a massage. get to know her body and every part of it all.

 

 

I can tell right now she fluctuates from having her heart in it to being checked out, but I can say the same about myself.

 

of course - and that's exactly what her actions (or non participating actions) show. but IF she HAS made a DECISION to heal things - she sure as hell should be acting like it 24/7. for without that healing - you two have NO MARRIAGE at all.

 

she acts like she should be ALLOWED to ignore you - her husband - and treat other things/people as a bigger priority than you.

 

well... she may get out of it what little effort she's willing to put into it. two people can't heal a R Nick, if one of the two is avoiding and non participating... because all the effort then gets completely lopsided... and that leaves it all to you and you only.

 

i just am not seeing much effort - but it's based on what you are saying - so i can't pretend to know what she is or isn't thinking/doing.

 

i'm going from your words.

 

for me - i wouldn't ever find it even slightly adequate - no way - not even for a day - no matter how much i loved someone. i don't expect someone loving me to look like they intend to exclude me from their daily life.

 

she looks extremely selfish and self centered Nick - no matter how much money she makes... it wold never be my substitute for feeling the love every day.

 

i would think it's very defeating and makes anyone feel like they aren't worthy... and that alone is terrible.

 

you are worthy... and you deserve a woman that makes you feel like you are on top of the world. THAT is love. ask your friend what his love feels like... he should be able to describe it... even having sex should be such a battle. that doesn't even sound fun. i know many couples that can't do "it" - and they enjoy a million other ways to be "intimate" - including but nit limited to the things i listed above. when was the last time she grabbed your a$$ in the kitchen? kissed you passionately?

 

tell me...

[NickFeek]

i don't generally put out my personal info here... but i thought it was important for you to understand that even though i was the BS - i felt since we were to repair and mend the M - that i participate on every level i could to have a great M - which we did in so many ways. after that decision was made - amidst all my pain - i worked hard to grow the love and let go completely of my anger. i was willing to do anything.

 

that is what i'm not seeing here with your W. i could be wrong - but i'm not seeing her willingness to open her mind to the possibilities of growth for the M and a better R with you two. that's a broad brush stroke - as i'm not hearing her side. i wish she'd start doing more than idle talk about it. blaming and staying in the anger doesn't promote healing.

 

her NON ACTION to move forward appears that way to me - but i'm not there. and i'm not in her head. IF you think it's not enough - you should be telling her that.

 

she knows you strayed out of loneliness... yet she still leaves the home environment seeming lonely to you. it's like she says she cares - but she really doesn't care how you feel about it. THAT is not loving behavior. ask her! IF it seems that way - ask her if that is her intention because that is what you are feeling from her non participation. when someone acts like they don't want to be bothered... others feel that energy.

 

I see what you mean, and this is what was so frustrating even before my infidelity. When I was pleading and trying to get through to her (and to be honest harassing via emails & phone calls to her work), she would sometimes push that away and sometimes say she heard me. But NOTHING ever changed. Her "reasons" at the moment are: she has no choice with her work situation; kids/sleep/etc.; anger at me. All of these may be true, but what I said to her in our session on Friday was that none of this should take away from the fact that if THIS CURRENT SITUATION doesn't even sway her that our R should be a priority then what the hell will?? It really comes down to a disconnect she's always had between her feelings and her actions. I can easily feel what she feels, but it so rarely translates into repeated action. It's like this one passage in Marriage Confidential. A woman's mother asked her what her daily life was like, and she described a pretty routine & mundane existence. The mother went on to describe HER daily life (or at least weekly), and the woman realized that her mother's R was how HER and her husband's life was like ONLY ON VACATION. We have great getaways (like the wedding a coulpe weekends ago), but that needs to be carried over into our daily/weekly lives or it means very very little.

 

i'm sure it is. how can it not be? but to leave it all this way isn't working. so when you know something isn't working - most people don't keep doing the same thing knowing their spouse is THAT unhappy. it's a selfish act.

 

yes, you cheated - but now she knows and still isn't attempting to get close to you. why hasn't she tried to find options to the sex you have? has she attempted to at least participate on other levels to get close to you? my H cheated - but i still gave him oral if i had my period and we also opted often to try and enjoy many new things. i'm not understanding why a man gets so motivated to stay and stay when the sex sounds completely unfulfilling.

 

The sad thing is, other than some manual touching, we have no other repertoire besides intercourse & "grinding". I often hear her ask what she can do when she has her period etc., and sometimes I'll guide her. But what REALLY goes through my head is Why do you have to ask after 25 years? Do you not have ANY sexual knowledge and/or idea of what works?

 

try new things. take a class in becoming more creative with the sex area. practice with each other. find many ways to please each other often - to the point of exhaustion in it's happiest form. i remember many days having "jelly legs" from happy sex. we were very connected. you two should as well. find a million ways to please her. start with a massage. get to know her body and every part of it all.

 

The FIRST thing she said outside of the building of our therapist before our first session was, "Promise me this is not some kind of sex therapy ambush or I'm not going up there." She's not really open about talking WITH ME, let alone with a professional. I'm still willing to try, and have a book in mind I'd like her to read, but I'm not expecting much. I hate to say it, but there were at least three things I did with the OW that I've never done in my life. And worse, that single drunken night was the best sex I've ever had BY FAR. Even taking away the thrill of it being wrong, etc., I've never felt so free & so physically connected. And while I sometimes look back on that fondly, really it just makes me sad & sick to my stomach.

 

of course - and that's exactly what her actions (or non participating actions) show. but IF she HAS made a DECISION to heal things - she sure as hell should be acting like it 24/7. for without that healing - you two have NO MARRIAGE at all.

 

she acts like she should be ALLOWED to ignore you - her husband - and treat other things/people as a bigger priority than you.

 

well... she may get out of it what little effort she's willing to put into it. two people can't heal a R Nick, if one of the two is avoiding and non participating... because all the effort then gets completely lopsided... and that leaves it all to you and you only.

 

i just am not seeing much effort - but it's based on what you are saying - so i can't pretend to know what she is or isn't thinking/doing.

 

i'm going from your words.

 

for me - i wouldn't ever find it even slightly adequate - no way - not even for a day - no matter how much i loved someone. i don't expect someone loving me to look like they intend to exclude me from their daily life.

 

She really DOES act like it should be okay to put me as her third or fourth priority. And while some weekends my "ranking" is bumped up, it just makes me dread the week even more because I know that will all be reversed & then some. And this is why I've felt pretty much on my own for so long. I KNOW we'll get into this in therapy, and maybe her hearing it in front of someone else will make it more real for her. But you can see why I'd even consider some crazy options, because if she implicitly feels like I should just be living my own life then why shouldn't I???

 

she looks extremely selfish and self centered Nick - no matter how much money she makes... it wold never be my substitute for feeling the love every day.

 

i would think it's very defeating and makes anyone feel like they aren't worthy... and that alone is terrible.

 

you are worthy... and you deserve a woman that makes you feel like you are on top of the world. THAT is love. ask your friend what his love feels like... he should be able to describe it... even having sex should be such a battle. that doesn't even sound fun. i know many couples that can't do "it" - and they enjoy a million other ways to be "intimate" - including but nit limited to the things i listed above. when was the last time she grabbed your a$$ in the kitchen? kissed you passionately?

 

tell me...

 

I feel all that stuff, and it's so good to hear from someone who's been hurt & recovered the way you have that I'm worthy of more.

 

Now & then she does hug me or kiss me out of nowhere, so I know that impulse is there. But - and I may be treading weird ground here - it's like I've been making love to a 13 year old my whole life. That's where I feel her general sense of sex is. That ONE NIGHT with the OW proved many things to me. One is that I'm actually a pretty giving & good lover. Another is that there is a kind of sex that feels "adult", and it doesn't just exist in porn or stories from friends or fantasies. And another is that I HAVE been missing out, that there is at least ONE PATCH OF GRASS that is greener. I know it's not like that all the time, but even once in a while is better than LITERALLY NEVER - and that's no exaggeration. I can't say I was really in love with the OW, but the comparison is so lopsided sexually that it's been really hard to shake.

[psionyx]

Hi Nick -

 

I've been reading this epic thread from its inception, on and off over the weekend and have finally caught up to the present. What a ride! A few questions have entered my mind while reading, and the timing for these seems especially relevant given what you just wrote in your last post.

 

First, I applaud your no-nonsense honesty. It seems like you've really laid everything on the line, and taken responsibility for your actions. However, and I could be wrong here, it seems you may need to take your honesty to a completely new level.

 

You have stated a few times now, and in your last post, that sex with the OW was an eye opening experience - a complete revelation in fact. That's not something easily forgotten, and you clearly haven't. It's probably burned into your psyche now, isn't it? This is the reason others have been surprised about how quickly the A seemed to dissipate. The question I have is: how much have you moved on from the OW, in your mind? I'm not necessarily referring to her in particular - but rather the idea of her. The idea that, as you stated so well, there is a particular patch of grass that you know now is far greener on the other side. When you look deep inside and take a hard look at what that means, do you find that it's a larger motivator in this matter than you may care to admit?

 

With that in mind, my second question concerns your efforts to save the M. Obviously there are many factors at work, and you've stated your desire to give it your best effort. However, you do still seem conflicted at times. My question is this: again, reaching far into yourself to that place of absolute honesty with yourself - for whose benefit are you trying to save the marriage? Is it your own? Is it for your kids? Is it for the benefit of everyone outside looking in? I'm asking, because the societal pressures to keep a marriage together are immensely powerful. Is it all possible that your efforts in this quarter are there to appease your own guilt at the prospect of leaving? That deep down you hold little hope, but yet you still struggle, mostly for the sake of making sure that nobody, not even yourself, can hold you at fault for the inevitable conclusion?

 

Do you have any gut feelings that your efforts may in fact be a charade, there only to keep intact a deep sense of honor and responsibility?

 

I'm not accusing you of any of this, and in fact your efforts may be completely genuine. It's only because of the internal conflict I sense that I ask the favor of absolute honesty. It is imperative, because in the event that the "work" is successful, you will then be forced to come to grips with your true feelings. And in that case, if you have not been honest with yourself, then you have done nobody any favors - least of all yourself.

 

Wishing the best to you and your family during these tough times.

[NickFeek]

Hi Nick -

 

I've been reading this epic thread from its inception, on and off over the weekend and have finally caught up to the present. What a ride! A few questions have entered my mind while reading, and the timing for these seems especially relevant given what you just wrote in your last post.

 

First, I applaud your no-nonsense honesty. It seems like you've really laid everything on the line, and taken responsibility for your actions. However, and I could be wrong here, it seems you may need to take your honesty to a completely new level.

 

You have stated a few times now, and in your last post, that sex with the OW was an eye opening experience - a complete revelation in fact. That's not something easily forgotten, and you clearly haven't. It's probably burned into your psyche now, isn't it? This is the reason others have been surprised about how quickly the A seemed to dissipate. The question I have is: how much have you moved on from the OW, in your mind? I'm not necessarily referring to her in particular - but rather the idea of her. The idea that, as you stated so well, there is a particular patch of grass that you know now is far greener on the other side. When you look deep inside and take a hard look at what that means, do you find that it's a larger motivator in this matter than you may care to admit?

 

With that in mind, my second question concerns your efforts to save the M. Obviously there are many factors at work, and you've stated your desire to give it your best effort. However, you do still seem conflicted at times. My question is this: again, reaching far into yourself to that place of absolute honesty with yourself - for whose benefit are you trying to save the marriage? Is it your own? Is it for your kids? Is it for the benefit of everyone outside looking in? I'm asking, because the societal pressures to keep a marriage together are immensely powerful. Is it all possible that your efforts in this quarter are there to appease your own guilt at the prospect of leaving? That deep down you hold little hope, but yet you still struggle, mostly for the sake of making sure that nobody, not even yourself, can hold you at fault for the inevitable conclusion?

 

Do you have any gut feelings that your efforts may in fact be a charade, there only to keep intact a deep sense of honor and responsibility?

 

I'm not accusing you of any of this, and in fact your efforts may be completely genuine. It's only because of the internal conflict I sense that I ask the favor of absolute honesty. It is imperative, because in the event that the "work" is successful, you will then be forced to come to grips with your true feelings. And in that case, if you have not been honest with yourself, then you have done nobody any favors - least of all yourself.

 

Wishing the best to you and your family during these tough times.

 

Wow, psionyx, that's one hell of a holiday weekend read! Thanks for slogging through it all. You've brought up some excellent points, and you're right that they are especially timely. I'm finding that as this goes on, I need to up the ante on my honesty at each interval. But to me that's really the only way to get to the end of this without compromising something that will put me/us back into a position where one or both of us is unhappy & unsatisfied. So I appreciate you pushing me ahead!

 

Your first question: The OW.

I struggle with this a lot. She got seriously wrapped up inside of me on many levels, and at the time I was sure I loved her. When we first broke contact (the night my wife found out) it felt like someone sucked out half of me. If you recall, the OW and I had ceased physical affection weeks before my wife found out, but I'd still characterize much of our relationship as an affair of the heart anyway - we were friends & coworkers, and still spending quite a bit of time together. So after the break I was hurting for weeks & months, both because of how much my wife was hurting AND because of how I had to abandon the OW and our friendship.

 

In the course of working things out with my wife, and because of certain business needs, I've had to reconnect professionally with the OW. It has not been easy, because there are still some residual feelings. But I have managed to reintegrate small things without any complication.

 

During those darkest months, I was really not at peace for one day. Again both because of my home situation and my feelings for the OW. But as my wife and I began to get beyond the initial shock phase and connect more, I started to reexamine my feelings for the OW. This is how I'd characterize how I feel now:

 

I still wish we could restart our friendship & working relationship. There's a big part of me - the most sexual part, the most SEX STARVED part - that still thinks about that night, and wishes it could be recreated even in small part. BUT I have moved on from feeling love for her. I believe she became a very easy substitute for my wife becasue - A. we got along well; B. she was available MUCH more than my wife ever is; C. we were attracted to each other; and D. she and my wife actually have quite a bit in common, at least superficially. So I was TRANSFERRING much of what I HAD felt and especially WANTED TO FEEL & EXPERIENCE with my wife onto the OW. I can see that now. And although it would be interesting and probably fun & pleasant to see what a relationship with her would be like, I no longer believe it could ever be a lasting or deep thing. Having said that, I still do miss our cameraderie. I just don't believe (as much as I'd like to ) that awesome sex is a good enough reason to throw away what my wife and I have built.

 

Which brings us to....

 

Your second question: Why am I trying to save the marriage?

 

My take on how I'm handling this emotional SPLIT - something I'm just now starting to read about in After the Affair - is that there IS a part of me that is still holding out or hedging my bets re the OW, out of fear of loneliness or missing out on parts of life. BUT I know for many reasons that I love my wife in ways I could never love the OW, and those ways are enough for me to want to not only salvage what we had that was good, but to build it better & finally find the things that were missing. I realize this is a damn tall task, but I think it's worth it.

 

Yes, I'm doing it for the kids.

Yes, I'm doing it out of a sense of honor & duty.

Yes, if things go wrong I want to believe we tried everything.

No, the social pressures don't enter into this. My cohort includes people in all kinds of situations, and those I respect run the range from happily married to happily single, and all in between.

Yes, there are times when I do hold little hope. But there are just about as many times when I have lots of hope. Yes, there is a huge part of me that is intrigued by the prospect of setting out on my own for the first time since I was 16 or 17 (which since I was still at home then would I guess mean the first time EVER). But again I don't believe that's enough to throw away what good we have and what good we could find through our work.

Yes, I'm doing it because I love her and still see inside her the person I fell in love with. If I could recreate withi my wife even a bit of what that one night with the OW showed me, that would be ideal. We'd have the rest of our lives to explore and discover.

BUT I also see that if anyone - including me - were to base the FUTURE on our PAST, it would seem very unlikely that we'd be able to find the road to that discovery & exploration. I'm both hopeful AND scared.

 

So my conclusion would be I don't consider this a charade. I believe that if I were entering into this simply to keep the peace or avoid my fear or for the kids, then it WOULD be a charade. I say this is not a charade because - and I have stated this clearly to my wife and the therapist and really anyone who will listen - I don't want to regain what we had. I don't want much of what we had at all. I will not settle for just winning her back, so to speak. I want us to do the work we've been avoiding for many years. I want us to prove to each other that all of this is worth it, that we really can fulfill the promise of our love, and the promiSES we made. AND if we can't get there, I am ready to end it, because for me to stay at that point WOULD be a charade.

 

You're so right. I need to be careful of the above, because if we DO end up staying together, I don't want something I've been repressing to rear its ugly head & sabotage us again. I need to be sure we are doing it right this time, as completely as possible. And that's why I've done my best to be honest with my wife too, even when I'm saying things that seem outrageous to her.

 

Thank you so much for prompting me like this! And if you have any follow-ups I'd be more than happy to respond. Happy early 4th!

[NickFeek]

To add a coda to that and throw in one of those outrageous truths....

 

There are so many things about my wife and life that I love and like and do not want to give up. If it were a "perfect world", I would be happy supplementing my marriage with other companions. I understand why that would be virtually impossible to both initiate and sustain, and I could never again do it by cheating and lying, but as I said this is outrageous and somewhere out there in that so called "perfect world".

 

Food for thought.

[2sunny]

The sad thing is, other than some manual touching, we have no other repertoire besides intercourse & "grinding". I often hear her ask what she can do when she has her period etc., and sometimes I'll guide her. But what REALLY goes through my head is Why do you have to ask after 25 years? Do you not have ANY sexual knowledge and/or idea of what works?

 

an occasional hug or kiss is not enough.

 

so when she asks you this - BE HONEST!!!!!!!

 

say it: i want you to suck me dry. i want anal. i want to have sex in the shower. i want a massage. you say you are being honest - but IF you don't ASK for exactly what you want, the way you want it - it's not even fair to her either. TELL HER your sex life together is unacceptable and needs growth and an open mind. read books TOGETHER and try what is suggested in the books!

 

say it Nick! you say you're being honest - but you're not telling her what may help.

 

it seems that maybe IF your sex life were better - you COULD overlook some of these other problems? or is that untrue?