2sunny Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 i see your thought process... and it's hard for me to imagine fighting such a strong negative energy flow between the two of you... and i hope you two can beat the odds of the uphill resistance at this juncture. there is good reason to get really, truly happy on your own. IF it works out - she may view you in a different light than before - all the while you get to be happy about you - and if it doesn't you still have learned to be happy with you. it really is about being happy on your own - and then offering that completely happy self to anyone you are with in THAT moment... wife, friends, kids, coworkers and such. you would then be participating as the best version of you possible. waiting and waiting for things to change in order to be happy isn't useful - just look - it's been since April that this has been discussed here... with little change and lots of talk... and now we are dependent on the counseling to revive 25 years of living with resistance. that too, will take time - and realistically you haven't given much EVIDENCE that she changes easily or at all. she loves her work. she may always work 14 or 15 hour days. adjustment will hopefully happen... but i also hope that she learns what a boundary looks like and finds some sense of balance. as it stands - you seem to be offering your best version... based on what she is or isn't doing... so your version is completely at the mercy of her actions/words. it's out of balance for what you could be doing right now. doing this work and waiting for her to change isn't realistic... this is about you. what IF she died tomorrow? YOU would be force to find a way to do all of this and find a way to be happy without her at that point. people do this all the time. you can be happy - no matter what the circumstances Nick... IF you choose that path.
Author NickFeek Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 i see your thought process... and it's hard for me to imagine fighting such a strong negative energy flow between the two of you... and i hope you two can beat the odds of the uphill resistance at this juncture. there is good reason to get really, truly happy on your own. IF it works out - she may view you in a different light than before - all the while you get to be happy about you - and if it doesn't you still have learned to be happy with you. it really is about being happy on your own - and then offering that completely happy self to anyone you are with in THAT moment... wife, friends, kids, coworkers and such. you would then be participating as the best version of you possible. waiting and waiting for things to change in order to be happy isn't useful - just look - it's been since April that this has been discussed here... with little change and lots of talk... and now we are dependent on the counseling to revive 25 years of living with resistance. that too, will take time - and realistically you haven't given much EVIDENCE that she changes easily or at all. she loves her work. she may always work 14 or 15 hour days. adjustment will hopefully happen... but i also hope that she learns what a boundary looks like and finds some sense of balance. as it stands - you seem to be offering your best version... based on what she is or isn't doing... so your version is completely at the mercy of her actions/words. it's out of balance for what you could be doing right now. doing this work and waiting for her to change isn't realistic... this is about you. what IF she died tomorrow? YOU would be force to find a way to do all of this and find a way to be happy without her at that point. people do this all the time. you can be happy - no matter what the circumstances Nick... IF you choose that path. There are many reasons for me why it's worth the uphill battle, not the least of which is if it doesn't work out I can be at peace knowing I gave it my all DESPITE the odds. I agree you need to be happy on your own to truly be able to offer & experience happiness to & from others. I do have a center, and it does have some happiness. I think for me to embrace full happiness is not possible at the moment. Years of entanglement with someone makes it hard to figure out what's mine & what's hers. During this sorting process - deciding what to keep & what to toss - you sometimes find that something that makes you happy is directly entwined with something that doesn't, so you have to weigh the loss & decide what compromise will work. It's almost never a clean black & white. I think your description of the last 2-3 months is accurate to a point. The change has been slow and subtle, but not non-existent. You'd have to be here in the middle of us to really feel what has changed - and I'm not talking about la la we're so much more connected now rainbows. I'm saying there have been shifts in how we perceive ourselves, each other, and the marriage & life in general that have started to lay the groundwork for a healthier future. And therapy, while not the whole answer, is a huge part of that. So while yes, I would be MUCH happier & more satisfied if the "conditions" I laid out were already all fulfilled, and if this entire transitional period were over & done with, there's been enough forward motion for me to feel confident that sticking it out right now is the right way for me & us to go. If she died tomorrow - setting aside the huge emotional trauma & just thinking practically - I'd have no trouble readjusting & surviving. The only things that would change is I'd be fully involved in my company again, and I would be unattached so I'd work towards finding moments of happiness through intimacy/friendship/sex in ways I can't now. Again, committing to someone else means being open to influence by them, means having to answer to more than just what's inside you. It is hugely tempting to break free from that influence, from answering to someone, from the burden of the emotional pain I've caused her - and that's why I felt compelled to take that step three weekends ago. But I realized fairly quickly that the hurt from loss AT THE MOMENT still outweighs the gain of freedom. That may change, and if it does it will be the right thing at that time. But not now.
trippi1432 Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 I think it is just harder for some to fathom that marriages are not always going to be perfect...if it weren't for the uphill battles, how would you know the strength of the bond and the integrity of the two people fighting that battle together? Some marriages survive infidelity, ask some couples who have been married 50 years...they will certainly tell you that it wasn't all perfect, but they knew happiness within themselves as well as the marriage as the two can and do co-exist. Those who hold the other person solely responsible for their own happiness typically are the ones that walk away from the marriage to go find happy somewhere else...not always infidelity, but an entirely new relationship. Nick - I do see where a few times you have stated that you would like to be more involved in your company, both would help in satisfaction and self-esteem...being successful and challenging. Unfortunately, that came with a price because there were other areas of unhappiness that you saw. I see where you take ownership of that. I'm saying there have been shifts in how we perceive ourselves, each other, and the marriage & life in general that have started to lay the groundwork for a healthier future. And therapy, while not the whole answer, is a huge part of that. So while yes, I would be MUCH happier & more satisfied if the "conditions" I laid out were already all fulfilled, and if this entire transitional period were over & done with, there's been enough forward motion for me to feel confident that sticking it out right now is the right way for me & us to go. I think the bolded part above is a very healthy aspect of in how people really do work together in those uphill battles to overcome the changes and shifts that all married couples go through in being happy together as much as for themselves.
Author NickFeek Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 I think it is just harder for some to fathom that marriages are not always going to be perfect...if it weren't for the uphill battles, how would you know the strength of the bond and the integrity of the two people fighting that battle together? Some marriages survive infidelity, ask some couples who have been married 50 years...they will certainly tell you that it wasn't all perfect, but they knew happiness within themselves as well as the marriage as the two can and do co-exist. Those who hold the other person solely responsible for their own happiness typically are the ones that walk away from the marriage to go find happy somewhere else...not always infidelity, but an entirely new relationship. Nick - I do see where a few times you have stated that you would like to be more involved in your company, both would help in satisfaction and self-esteem...being successful and challenging. Unfortunately, that came with a price because there were other areas of unhappiness that you saw. I see where you take ownership of that. I think the bolded part above is a very healthy aspect of in how people really do work together in those uphill battles to overcome the changes and shifts that all married couples go through in being happy together as much as for themselves. All really well said in those first two paragraphs and the last one. Nothing for me to add. And the third paragraph - I do realize that the infidelity cut right through the heart of both my marriage AND my company. It's a struggle I'm going to have to deal with for a long time most likely. But I do intend to work hard enough to make it feasible for my wife to give that back to me.
Lisa_H Posted June 26, 2011 Posted June 26, 2011 There are so many little things that can be done to start a reconciliation process in a marriage. The little things count! Your relationship is going through a hard time and that calls for drastic measures. Start reading and implement what your learn. Seek some help even if your wife won't...you can do things on your own to make a difference. All counselors are not created equal so find the right one for you. Lisa
Author NickFeek Posted June 26, 2011 Author Posted June 26, 2011 There are so many little things that can be done to start a reconciliation process in a marriage. The little things count! Your relationship is going through a hard time and that calls for drastic measures. Start reading and implement what your learn. Seek some help even if your wife won't...you can do things on your own to make a difference. All counselors are not created equal so find the right one for you. Lisa Thanks, Lisa. That's right, all the little things. I've been reading a ton, talking to lots of people, etc. Right before our session, she & I talked about how we will agree to find a counselor who's a good fit for us. Looks like my research paid off, because at the moment this counselor fits us quite well.
2sunny Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 i understand what i'm about to type may seem a bit odd - but i want to throw this out there... and some may not like it - but it continues to be at the forefront of my mind... they way she works - and becomes disconnected to you and the family - and how unattached she is when focused on work (which takes up a HUGE part of her priority and life/time/dedication) - a form of infidelity. mainly because it ends up looking the same in the end. i know i may get flamed... but it keeps nagging at me that her work looks just like it would IF someone were cheating.
Author NickFeek Posted June 27, 2011 Author Posted June 27, 2011 i understand what i'm about to type may seem a bit odd - but i want to throw this out there... and some may not like it - but it continues to be at the forefront of my mind... they way she works - and becomes disconnected to you and the family - and how unattached she is when focused on work (which takes up a HUGE part of her priority and life/time/dedication) - a form of infidelity. mainly because it ends up looking the same in the end. i know i may get flamed... but it keeps nagging at me that her work looks just like it would IF someone were cheating. You are by far not the first person who's said that. And while I can't (and am in no position to) equate the two, I can understand why people would see it that way. I absolutely do not dismiss the impact it's had on us and continues to have on us. I think the big differences are A. there's no lying involved; and B. it doesn't break any marriage vow. But yes, a giant portion of the emotional impact is the same.
2sunny Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 You are by far not the first person who's said that. And while I can't (and am in no position to) equate the two, I can understand why people would see it that way. I absolutely do not dismiss the impact it's had on us and continues to have on us. I think the big differences are A. there's no lying involved; and B. it doesn't break any marriage vow. But yes, a giant portion of the emotional impact is the same. tell me how it's not lying when she says she'll be home earlier to participate in the families evening and still shows up late? she's lied about several things since this thread started. and now she has said she's working on improving the M - but contradicting it with considering a bigger workload. and the M vows... well, i'm not seeing the honor or loving part of the vows when she is absent and not tending to or nuturing the M to grow it healthier/to grow the bond between the two of you stronger. don't the vows usually say "love, honor and cherish?" correct me if i'm wrong. looks like she's loving, honoring and cherishing her work time. if you TWO are working together... then you need the other person to participate if you are to repair the damage that was caused. there's no way to repair it - or set things right when the other person isn't available, yes? so - from MY perspective - there IS lying and the vows HAVE also been broken by her as well. she may not have given herself physically to another man - but physically she HAS given herself to her work - and that has also enabled her to stay emotionally unavailable as well...
trippi1432 Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 tell me how it's not lying when she says she'll be home earlier to participate in the families evening and still shows up late? she's lied about several things since this thread started. and now she has said she's working on improving the M - but contradicting it with considering a bigger workload. and the M vows... well, i'm not seeing the honor or loving part of the vows when she is absent and not tending to or nuturing the M to grow it healthier/to grow the bond between the two of you stronger. don't the vows usually say "love, honor and cherish?" correct me if i'm wrong. looks like she's loving, honoring and cherishing her work time. if you TWO are working together... then you need the other person to participate if you are to repair the damage that was caused. there's no way to repair it - or set things right when the other person isn't available, yes? so - from MY perspective - there IS lying and the vows HAVE also been broken by her as well. she may not have given herself physically to another man - but physically she HAS given herself to her work - and that has also enabled her to stay emotionally unavailable as well... I would say by that measure everyone breaks their vows when we hold the feet to the flame...if someone has to provide for their family by having a demanding job, unfaithful. If one of the parents puts their children in rigorous sports and has to be at every game...unfaithful. If a mother tends to all her children's needs and the husband feels left out, unfaithful. If the husband ignores his family because he is a sports fanatic....unfaithful. It's all making sense to me now by that post 2Sunny...it is about putting all of our unhappiness on someone else making us unhappy and not being responsible for our own feelings.
2sunny Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 It's all making sense to me now by that post 2Sunny...it is about putting all of our unhappiness on someone else making us unhappy and not being responsible for our own feelings. i am responsible for my own feelings. i cannot and will not give THAT much power to others - over MY own happiness. i am responsible for how i participate. for me... IF i hand too much power (and get out of balance) then i allow others to control HOW I FEEL. i don't live each day (or any day) being at the mercy of how someone else MAKES me feel. i am happy... then i offer my happy, healthy self to those around me. IF and when someone intends to make me unhappy or creates circumstances that make me upset - i say so... and make sure i change THAT situation. i DO have control over that. for me, life isn't meant to be lived fighting a battle and being miserable. here's the disconnect with Nick... they have said so - what the issues are - yet they haven't changed the situation yet. counseling is one thing - but they are BOTH going to be asked to CHANGE - and that is the part they haven't been DOING (just been talking about doing it). Nick hands his wife so much power by wanting her to BE with him and the kids... and his wife holds all that power. as a woman who holds all that power - she stays away... and doesn't give him or the family what they want -- which is to BE with her. so it IS a power play... and one she does well. so - take her power away and get back to good balance... learn how to be happy without her... then IF she's around, it is a bonus. if she's not = Nick is still knowing how to be happy without her. he's no longer putting his happiness at the mercy of her. she is no longer in control. this is why change IS good. i have to think this IS what Nick has worked on in counseling... yet he still hands his W all that power... so there IS work for Nick to do. he CAN change that and he CAN start now. to wait on your wife is silly - get busy getting happy, start living Nick. stop waiting on her to start living and being happy.
trippi1432 Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 (edited) i am responsible for my own feelings. i cannot and will not give THAT much power to others - over MY own happiness. i am responsible for how i participate. for me... IF i hand too much power (and get out of balance) then i allow others to control HOW I FEEL. i don't live each day (or any day) being at the mercy of how someone else MAKES me feel. i am happy... then i offer my happy, healthy self to those around me. Your terms...I understand...did you ask them what their terms were or did you decide them for them? IF and when someone intends to make me unhappy or creates circumstances that make me upset - i say so... and make sure i change THAT situation. i DO have control over that. for me, life isn't meant to be lived fighting a battle and being miserable. Control over a situation is a fallacy..you only have control over yourself, how you react and what your recovery is. Pointing it out to them is natural..I pointed it out many times to my exH....he remained self-absorbed so I chose my path and I continued to "climb the corporate ladder" which seems to be taboo and of issue. It really does take two for both success or failure. here's the disconnect with Nick... they have said so - what the issues are - yet they haven't changed the situation yet. counseling is one thing - but they are BOTH going to be asked to CHANGE - and that is the part they haven't been DOING (just been talking about doing it). Nick hands his wife so much power by wanting her to BE with him and the kids... and his wife holds all that power. as a woman who holds all that power - she stays away... and doesn't give him or the family what they want -- which is to BE with her. so it IS a power play... and one she does well. REALLY..so you are in their house every night to know HER side? Or are you just in your own house projecting how you felt and looking for validation? It was okay to divorce your husband 2Sunny, just as I did mine...when a man is inadequate, they just are. Are you really looking for happiness or are you harboring guilt? Stop allowing your ex's actions to project on your own happiness. I love that my house is no longer filled with anger, yelling and rage....unless it's me trying to get a teenager to do his chores. Life changes and we change with it..but you know that. so - take her power away and get back to good balance... learn how to be happy without her... then IF she's around, it is a bonus. if she's not = Nick is still knowing how to be happy without her. he's no longer putting his happiness at the mercy of her. she is no longer in control. this is why change IS good. i have to think this IS what Nick has worked on in counseling... yet he still hands his W all that power... so there IS work for Nick to do. he CAN change that and he CAN start now. to wait on your wife is silly - get busy getting happy, start living Nick. stop waiting on her to start living and being happy. Gunny said that a lot and was a man who raised his kids good, but not selfish. Get busy living has a lot of meanings including get busy with the art of finding a good line in the sand of negotiation. A place where it is just not you who is happy because someone else sacrifice for you. Even Gunny knew that there wasn't always fairness in all TI-180 calculations. You have to play the numbers sometimes..Smart man...balance. Edited June 27, 2011 by trippi1432
2sunny Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 =trippi1432;3478136]Your terms...I understand...did you ask them what their terms were or did you decide them for them? i decide what works for me... that is MY boundary trippi. i can't control whether or not anyone else likes that. it no longer matters. trying to make everyone else happy (and learning how impossible that was) - made me very unhappy back then. Control over a situation is a fallacy..you only have control over yourself, how you react and what your recovery is. Pointing it out to them is natural..I pointed it out many times to my exH....he remained self-absorbed so I chose my path and I continued to "climb the corporate ladder" which seems to be taboo and of issue. It really does take two for both success or failure. control over a situation? i always have choices. i can also say no. what i say or do is what i can control. that is just my part in it. REALLY..so you are in their house every night to know HER side? Or are you just in your own house projecting how you felt and looking for validation? It was okay to divorce your husband 2Sunny, just as I did mine...when a man is inadequate, they just are. Are you really looking for happiness or are you harboring guilt? Stop allowing your ex's actions to project on your own happiness. I love that my house is no longer filled with anger, yelling and rage....unless it's me trying to get a teenager to do his chores. Life changes and we change with it..but you know that. i only have Nick's words to work from here... we both know that. i am not projecting trippi... i harbor absolutely no guilt... that guilt isn't useful for me. i had many good reasons to end the M, serious reasons... i'm at peace with that decision. i don't yell at my teens either. when i find something i'm not happy about - i calmly state the obvious and ask them to DO things differently in my home. oddly enough, they have been great! and i don't need someone else to tell me it was OK to divorce him - i am FAR beyond needing that approval. and please don't put words in my mouth - i didn't say he was inadequate. i had my reasons for divorce. it was a painful decision... but i knew i deserved to be happy... and that wasn't possible for ME with a cheating, abusive sociopath who was an extreme control freak. so i decided i deserved to live again. Gunny said that a lot and was a man who raised his kids good, but not selfish. Get busy living has a lot of meanings including get busy with the art of finding a good line in the sand of negotiation. A place where it is just not you who is happy because someone else sacrifice for you. Even Gunny knew that there wasn't always fairness in all TI-180 calculations. You have to play the numbers sometimes..Smart man...balance. i love Gunny too. there's not one thing wrong with taking care of yourself - then offering healthy self to others. it's awesome. a boundary helped me in many ways - to find what happy looks like for me. my happiness just is no longer determined by what someone else IS or ISN'T doing. i got busy living... being happy - and being at peace. i wish i could give others what i have gotten more easily... it's hard to have others see it this way. the biggest thing that seemed to generally stand in the way was to continue holding on tight to the past. in my experience - THAT was a big roadblock - and very freeing once i let go.
Author NickFeek Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 tell me how it's not lying when she says she'll be home earlier to participate in the families evening and still shows up late? she's lied about several things since this thread started. and now she has said she's working on improving the M - but contradicting it with considering a bigger workload. and the M vows... well, i'm not seeing the honor or loving part of the vows when she is absent and not tending to or nuturing the M to grow it healthier/to grow the bond between the two of you stronger. don't the vows usually say "love, honor and cherish?" correct me if i'm wrong. looks like she's loving, honoring and cherishing her work time. if you TWO are working together... then you need the other person to participate if you are to repair the damage that was caused. there's no way to repair it - or set things right when the other person isn't available, yes? so - from MY perspective - there IS lying and the vows HAVE also been broken by her as well. she may not have given herself physically to another man - but physically she HAS given herself to her work - and that has also enabled her to stay emotionally unavailable as well... I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but for some reason I didn't get an email alert after your last post. In this last week, after some of the "gratitude" of the first therapy session has worn off, I am seeing very clearly how hard it is going to be to change old habits & patterns. I can't fully equate my infidelity with her actions, but I do agree with just about everything you said in this post. She is escaping to her work, and has the societal & moral "okay" to do that, not to mention the strong argument that she is the primary breadwinner. None of this in my book is good enough to justify how this behavior has hurt our marriage. One of the many things I liked about our first session was the the therapist said her way of approaching things is less like a diet and more like a lifestyle change. As they say, going on a diet usually only works as long as you're on the diet. Then you go back to old habits & gain back the weight. She would rather find the things that need changing & find ways to make those changes at the roots - organically. Still an extremely tall task, but definitely the right approach.
Author NickFeek Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 here's the disconnect with Nick... they have said so - what the issues are - yet they haven't changed the situation yet. counseling is one thing - but they are BOTH going to be asked to CHANGE - and that is the part they haven't been DOING (just been talking about doing it). Nick hands his wife so much power by wanting her to BE with him and the kids... and his wife holds all that power. as a woman who holds all that power - she stays away... and doesn't give him or the family what they want -- which is to BE with her. so it IS a power play... and one she does well. so - take her power away and get back to good balance... learn how to be happy without her... then IF she's around, it is a bonus. if she's not = Nick is still knowing how to be happy without her. he's no longer putting his happiness at the mercy of her. she is no longer in control. this is why change IS good. i have to think this IS what Nick has worked on in counseling... yet he still hands his W all that power... so there IS work for Nick to do. he CAN change that and he CAN start now. to wait on your wife is silly - get busy getting happy, start living Nick. stop waiting on her to start living and being happy. If I had the determination & deep desire & guts to just up & leave, I would have done it already. She DOES hold power because in many ways I DON'T want to dissolve this marriage. I agree the changing is what we're not doing, and I believe the only chance of that happening now is through counseling. If even a good/great therapist can't help to bring about change, then we should pack it in. In the mean time, I HIGHLY recommend the book "Marriage Confidential" by Pamela Haag. It gives such a complete picture of the 21st Century marriage, and such a fresh take on what constitutes a "successful" marriage, that I'm insisting my wife read it so we can discuss amongst ourselves AND with the therapist.
Author NickFeek Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 Gunny said that a lot and was a man who raised his kids good, but not selfish. Get busy living has a lot of meanings including get busy with the art of finding a good line in the sand of negotiation. A place where it is just not you who is happy because someone else sacrifice for you. Even Gunny knew that there wasn't always fairness in all TI-180 calculations. You have to play the numbers sometimes..Smart man...balance. I agree with this very much. It does not rule out a future separation/divorce, but it does illustrate that there are many middle layers that can STILL accommodate the idea of getting busy living. I have found MUCH of this already, and have been living that way for years. It's just a shame that the ways I haven't found it cut to the core of our marriage, and I'd have to say that's because there are certain things for which you HAVE to rely on your partner to truly be fulfilled in them. Intimacy being the obvious one, but many others.
Author NickFeek Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 i wish i could give others what i have gotten more easily... it's hard to have others see it this way. the biggest thing that seemed to generally stand in the way was to continue holding on tight to the past. in my experience - THAT was a big roadblock - and very freeing once i let go. No question I am holding onto the past, and there's a huge part of me that WANTS to. I felt a glimpse of that freedom the night I told my wife I was leaving, but in short order I determined that my desire to keep the good of what we have was/is stronger than my desire for that freedom. BUT I have to say again, reading Pamela Haag's book has opened my eyes to some intriguing possibilities, and I am hoping that my wife & I can find a better way to structure our relationship that will enable us to persevere.
Goldenspoon Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Wait, I saw you mention that you had an affair? Whom was it with and how many times did you sleep with this person? Are you still in contact or any possible contact with her?
Author NickFeek Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 Wait, I saw you mention that you had an affair? Whom was it with and how many times did you sleep with this person? Are you still in contact or any possible contact with her? Hi Goldenspoon. Thanks for posting. My affair ended about 8-9 months ago. It was with a colleague with whom I founded a small company (along with two other people). We slept together once, had three other fully clothed encounters, and exchanged lots of emails during that time. Though we no longer work together, we are both still vital and necessary participants in the company, and have had to take part in certain email business exchanges, as well as attend two functions with others. Other than that, I do not speak with her & have had no other in-person contact whatsoever.
2sunny Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 BUT I have to say again, reading Pamela Haag's book has opened my eyes to some intriguing possibilities, and I am hoping that my wife & I can find a better way to structure our relationship that will enable us to persevere. what is the goal? if you aren't BOTH aware of the goal, structure and what "this better way" is supposed to look like (for you two) then you two better define what THAT goal is = the sooner the better! and your chosen word(s) which include: per·se·ver·ance [pur-suh-veer-uhns] –noun 1. steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement. and then the verb persevere Verb: Continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no indication of success. Nick - do you notice that within these definitions - the defining part is course of ACTION? yep = action! action - steady - with a purpose... without the action - you will have nothing... and no means of persevering. kind of like trying to have a meal without any food. continue is also an action based word... hmmm what are you two continuing? so i ask - what is the purpose/goal/and course of action? it really need to be written down by you and your wife together - because if you two don't know what you're going or here - or aren't on the same page - it's all wasted time and energy and money. a counselor shouldn't be left to decide what will or won't make you two happy - you guys need to define that part for yourselves - then stay on course to obtain what that goal is within your M. so what did this book open your eyes to - what possibilities do you see now that you didn't see before?
Author NickFeek Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 what is the goal? if you aren't BOTH aware of the goal, structure and what "this better way" is supposed to look like (for you two) then you two better define what THAT goal is = the sooner the better! and your chosen word(s) which include: per·se·ver·ance [pur-suh-veer-uhns] –noun 1. steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement. and then the verb persevere Verb: Continue in a course of action even in the face of difficulty or with little or no indication of success. Nick - do you notice that within these definitions - the defining part is course of ACTION? yep = action! action - steady - with a purpose... without the action - you will have nothing... and no means of persevering. kind of like trying to have a meal without any food. continue is also an action based word... hmmm what are you two continuing? so i ask - what is the purpose/goal/and course of action? it really need to be written down by you and your wife together - because if you two don't know what you're going or here - or aren't on the same page - it's all wasted time and energy and money. a counselor shouldn't be left to decide what will or won't make you two happy - you guys need to define that part for yourselves - then stay on course to obtain what that goal is within your M. so what did this book open your eyes to - what possibilities do you see now that you didn't see before? Well said, and the "persevere" illustration is something I deeply believe in. I have practiced it effectively elsewhere, and hope to continue to apply that in my marriage, and especially find ways to do it way more effectively than pre-infidelity. I agree we need to come up with a goal/end result that we are both working towards. Part of the problem is that we have not communicated openly on this subject for a long time, and our goals have diverged over the years. I think the only ways we can find common goals again are through therapy and concrete discussions at home (including writing down). And believe me, one of the things we like about this therapist is that she has no preconceived notions about what will work or what is right for us. She is helping us to explore & understand everything we can, and then I imagine she will suggest several courses of action - steps and such, etc. It's still early on. The book posits that there is no one definition of a successful marriage. A marriage's success is based on two people agreeing on what defines their marriage, and then sticking to that. So much of this is left unspoken or simply assumed, and that's why couples drift/lie/cheat/overwork/overparent/etc. So this is really in line with what you're suggesting: be SPECIFIC AND OPEN about what will make both partners happy and satisfied, and then do that honestly. The book also says that you should not be confined by a societal definition of marriage - that if much of your marriage works but key parts don't (exactly my marriage), divorce/separation is only ONE option of MANY. You'd really have to read it to get a more holistic sense of what I'm trying to say here.
Goldenspoon Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Hi Goldenspoon. Thanks for posting. My affair ended about 8-9 months ago. It was with a colleague with whom I founded a small company (along with two other people). We slept together once, had three other fully clothed encounters, and exchanged lots of emails during that time. Though we no longer work together, we are both still vital and necessary participants in the company, and have had to take part in certain email business exchanges, as well as attend two functions with others. Other than that, I do not speak with her & have had no other in-person contact whatsoever. Why were you attracted to her? And what caused the affair to end? Does your wife know about the affair? Has she fully forgiven you?
Author NickFeek Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 Why were you attracted to her? And what caused the affair to end? Does your wife know about the affair? Has she fully forgiven you? Prior to us having an affair, we were very good friends with a lot in common. And I was always attracted to her physically. We then worked very closely together on a project. AND she began to fill in holes that my marriage had/has. Put all that together with a seriously drunken night, and the bomb exploded. I take full responsibility for that. The affair ended because we both agreed it was wrong, and we were hoping at the time to maintain our friendship & working relationship (which we did for a while). I then told my wife a few weeks after it ended, at which point all coworking & friendship activities ceased. My wife & I have been struggling with this ever since. No, she has not fully forgiven me. She's further along that road than months ago, but we are now in marriage counseling and I imagine the full trip down that road is going to be a long one.
2sunny Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 i agree that only the two within the M can define what does/doesn't work for them. so we agree - there is no perseverance without the action? if so - you two can start on the action part. or are you two waiting for the instructions from the therapist? no need to wait - write lists of what does and doesn't work for both of you. list expectations, needs, wants... within the marriage - and what you two may agree on getting as inspiration from outside the marriage too. then set those into MOTION! action! key word running through all this thread is action - and lack of that, specifically, within the M that needs changes. have you two been going out together once or twice every week? do things together! movies, dinner, lunch, garden in the yard - go to the nursery to gather plants/flowers together, pick out meals together and plan what you TWO think sounds yummy - then create THAT! are you doing anything different than before? because IF you just leave it all the same - and expect the counselor to make ALL the suggestions - you could be waiting a long time - and still not be DOING what makes you two happy together. you two need to get reconnected on some levels that pleases both of you. brainstorm with her! get on those lists... write them out - then exchange lists and review what does or doesn't sound feasible/cross out the ones you both don't agree on. then PUT THEM INTO THE PLAN OF ACTION BY DOING THEM ALL. the action part is in the DOING. if you don't like some of them - change the lists - but at least you would be implementing some change to see how it might be possible to make it work.
Goldenspoon Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Prior to us having an affair, we were very good friends with a lot in common. And I was always attracted to her physically. We then worked very closely together on a project. AND she began to fill in holes that my marriage had/has. Put all that together with a seriously drunken night, and the bomb exploded. I take full responsibility for that. I don't know, it's hard to believe that there were attraction and the affair started both emotionally and physically, and bang, it ends within months. That's just not common at all. Is this other woman married? Why doesn't she want to carry on when it feels good, or did it?
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