Author NickFeek Posted June 18, 2011 Author Posted June 18, 2011 Counseling can be a great help Nick, but its a lot like a meal, regardless of the skill and talent of the chef, they can only do so much with the ingredients their given. For counseling, that means BOTH of you walking into the office with an open mind and a willingness to put in the work and for both of you to make changes to rebuild your marriage. If thats not present on both sides, counseling isn't going to help. TOJAZ I could not agree more! I know it's been a hard sell for her, and I'm expecting it to be a slow and rocky start, but I'm hopeful that she'll start to trust the process and open up. I'm willing to go for the long haul if that's what it takes.
trippi1432 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Nick - that is the key, an open mind and no external influences...seriously. My exH and I tried to do the MC...the more I am finding out, I didn't have a chance as a wife as he was already "involved" emotionally with another woman. It was something that I always suspected but that he denied....clean the slate Nick...for both of you....it will help her to clean her slate too. Neutral territory will help to bring it all to light.
Author NickFeek Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 Nick - that is the key, an open mind and no external influences...seriously. My exH and I tried to do the MC...the more I am finding out, I didn't have a chance as a wife as he was already "involved" emotionally with another woman. It was something that I always suspected but that he denied....clean the slate Nick...for both of you....it will help her to clean her slate too. Neutral territory will help to bring it all to light. That is my goal to a T. I really do think once things are underway, she will see that I'm genuinely trying to clean the slate, and that this will make her comfortable and trusting enough to open up. Trust is the biggest issue right now, as you can imagine.
trippi1432 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 and that this will make her comfortable and trusting enough to open up. Trust is the biggest issue right now, as you can imagine. I will refrain from commenting on this..but hold it in quotes for posterity's sake.....
tojaz Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 That is my goal to a T. I really do think once things are underway, she will see that I'm genuinely trying to clean the slate, and that this will make her comfortable and trusting enough to open up. Trust is the biggest issue right now, as you can imagine. Leave that to the counselor. Clean slate means no expectations, no plans, no tactics. Your starting over from ground level. Trying to show her anything isn't doing that, just go in, speak honestly, openly as you can and hopefully she will do the same. Let the counselor run with it. Their words are going to have more impact on her anyways because they are on the outside with no emotional investment. Leave the session in the counselors office! Resist the urge to push the issue outside of it. As things pop into your head, write them down and revisit them in session. As she hopefully becomes more comfortable, she will come to you. Thats what you want. Above all else LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN! The harder things are for you to hear, the more important it is for you to hear them. Lots of people walk in to MC and treat it like divorce court, feeling the need to defend themselves. Most actions are done with the best of intents but we rarely get a chance to hear how others interpret them, make the most of that opportunity. TOJAZ
Author NickFeek Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 Leave that to the counselor. Clean slate means no expectations, no plans, no tactics. Your starting over from ground level. Trying to show her anything isn't doing that, just go in, speak honestly, openly as you can and hopefully she will do the same. Let the counselor run with it. Their words are going to have more impact on her anyways because they are on the outside with no emotional investment. Leave the session in the counselors office! Resist the urge to push the issue outside of it. As things pop into your head, write them down and revisit them in session. As she hopefully becomes more comfortable, she will come to you. Thats what you want. Above all else LISTEN! LISTEN! LISTEN! The harder things are for you to hear, the more important it is for you to hear them. Lots of people walk in to MC and treat it like divorce court, feeling the need to defend themselves. Most actions are done with the best of intents but we rarely get a chance to hear how others interpret them, make the most of that opportunity. TOJAZ I agree that the counselor's words will hold more sway than anything I could say or have said. That's one of the primary reasons I want us to go. I like the idea of leaving the session in the office. It may be hard for me because I always need to feel like I'm working on it, but I'm sure I can make the adjustment. Yes! Listening will be key. Very good advice. Thanks.
Author NickFeek Posted June 19, 2011 Author Posted June 19, 2011 I will refrain from commenting on this..but hold it in quotes for posterity's sake..... Yeah, me too! We had a mostly good weekend. We went away for one night to the wedding of one of her coworkers - coincidentally the only one in her office who knows what I did. We were together without interruption for over 24 hours, for the first time in a long time. Despite a big fight on the way to the church (we were late & missed the ceremony), the rest of the weekend we were connecting on all levels. It was a bit of an "ideal" rather than "real" situation, since this was NOT in the middle of a busy work week with kids, etc. But as far as a break goes, we could not have spent it more productively. And she is now speaking about counseling as if it's just part of the deal, with little or no animosity. I think this is because I'm showing her in daily life how dedicated I am to it and to working things out with her. No guarantees that she will remain this way or that things will turn out for the better, but that's okay. At this stage, we are making progress.
2sunny Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 That is my goal to a T. I really do think once things are underway, she will see that I'm genuinely trying to clean the slate, and that this will make her comfortable and trusting enough to open up. Trust is the biggest issue right now, as you can imagine. expectations get us into a mind**ck every time. EXPECT something different but try your best to NOT expect much... remember she has shown that she resists change... if you can stay neutral - it's easier than if you have expectations. i would expect a gal like her to crawl at a snails pace... just to avoid getting to the things she may intend to avoid talking about. you can't MAKE her comfortable = that is only up to HER... or not. and whether she ever trusts or not remains in the future... even IF she trusts - it may just never be in her blood to "open up" - some people just won't... and no one can make them IF they intend not to. i think you have MANY expectations that could cause you disappointment. i caution you with expectations. she said she would go - that's what you asked for... getting her to change would be great but not realistic given her resistance level to anything new or different. go in neutral... let her take the lead. let her give the info she wants to throw out there... see what she presents to the counselor. it may be very telling. glad the weekend went well... Happy Father's Day too!
tojaz Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 I agree that the counselor's words will hold more sway than anything I could say or have said. That's one of the primary reasons I want us to go. I like the idea of leaving the session in the office. It may be hard for me because I always need to feel like I'm working on it, but I'm sure I can make the adjustment. Yes! Listening will be key. Very good advice. Thanks. I can tell! I was the same way and it feels right in the moment. You want to see progress and its unnatural to take a wait and see approach. Hard part is that messages and information all have to be processed and that happens at different speeds for everyone. A flood of things to process all at once and in an emotional state just results in a bottleneck that will add to her stress and to your frustration. A slow methodical approach at her pace will help, your way ahead on all that needs to be addressed, she will need time to catch up. TOJAZ
Author NickFeek Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 expectations get us into a mind**ck every time. EXPECT something different but try your best to NOT expect much... remember she has shown that she resists change... if you can stay neutral - it's easier than if you have expectations. i would expect a gal like her to crawl at a snails pace... just to avoid getting to the things she may intend to avoid talking about. you can't MAKE her comfortable = that is only up to HER... or not. and whether she ever trusts or not remains in the future... even IF she trusts - it may just never be in her blood to "open up" - some people just won't... and no one can make them IF they intend not to. i think you have MANY expectations that could cause you disappointment. i caution you with expectations. she said she would go - that's what you asked for... getting her to change would be great but not realistic given her resistance level to anything new or different. go in neutral... let her take the lead. let her give the info she wants to throw out there... see what she presents to the counselor. it may be very telling. glad the weekend went well... Happy Father's Day too! That's about where I am. I'm not so much expecting as seeing those things as possible and hopeful outcomes. I'm also seeing other outcomes like what you've mentioned here. And yes, I need to let her do all the talking she wants to, and to take the lead there. I'm fully capable of doing MY talking, so I can be patient about that. It's her I really want to hear from.
Author NickFeek Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 I can tell! I was the same way and it feels right in the moment. You want to see progress and its unnatural to take a wait and see approach. Hard part is that messages and information all have to be processed and that happens at different speeds for everyone. A flood of things to process all at once and in an emotional state just results in a bottleneck that will add to her stress and to your frustration. A slow methodical approach at her pace will help, your way ahead on all that needs to be addressed, she will need time to catch up. TOJAZ Boy is that the truth! She has told me that often, and I completely understand why. Assuming we can find the right counselor, I'm confident that the slow approach WILL lead to some very telling things. What she does or we do with them is another matter, but first things first.
knitwit Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Boy is that the truth! She has told me that often, and I completely understand why. Assuming we can find the right counselor, I'm confident that the slow approach WILL lead to some very telling things. What she does or we do with them is another matter, but first things first. Hi Nick, I am smack in the middle of a busy session for work, but hopped on LS and am so glad to see that you two are continuing forward in reconciliation! I hope you get a good marriage counselor and that is all works out! Still cheering for you guys!
Author NickFeek Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 Hi Nick, I am smack in the middle of a busy session for work, but hopped on LS and am so glad to see that you two are continuing forward in reconciliation! I hope you get a good marriage counselor and that is all works out! Still cheering for you guys! Thanks for the good wishes. I'm nervous but also very encouraged. Whatever this leads to it will be a healthier outcome.
tojaz Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 Boy is that the truth! She has told me that often, and I completely understand why. Assuming we can find the right counselor, I'm confident that the slow approach WILL lead to some very telling things. What she does or we do with them is another matter, but first things first. Well hopefully she does open up. In that case though, thats where that open mind is going to come in to play, the scene can often be flipped quickly and you'll have to do some catching up of your own to do. Nothing you cant handle so long as you keep a positive attitude and remember why your there. Keep us posted. I'm pulling for you two. TOJAZ
Author NickFeek Posted June 20, 2011 Author Posted June 20, 2011 Well hopefully she does open up. In that case though, thats where that open mind is going to come in to play, the scene can often be flipped quickly and you'll have to do some catching up of your own to do. Nothing you cant handle so long as you keep a positive attitude and remember why your there. Keep us posted. I'm pulling for you two. TOJAZ I think I'm starting to sense that, in a sort of "be careful what you wish for" way. But I've been here before (in individual therapy), so I'm ready work with whatever comes my way. Thanks! I'll definitely let everyone know how the first session goes.
2sunny Posted June 24, 2011 Posted June 24, 2011 so - she has now agreed to go to counseling in about a week... she can agree to go - ultimately what you are seeking is to change things. this CAN get started at ANY time... in the meantime - what HAS changed? how has the week been?
Author NickFeek Posted June 24, 2011 Author Posted June 24, 2011 so - she has now agreed to go to counseling in about a week... she can agree to go - ultimately what you are seeking is to change things. this CAN get started at ANY time... in the meantime - what HAS changed? how has the week been? One bit of potentially good news & one bit of potentially bad news. The good news is we were able to get an earlier first session, which just wrapped about an hour ago, and it went very well. At this stage it's really just the doctor gathering info, but we both really like her & agree with her approach, and were both able to speak openly. So a great start overall. The bad news is about her job. Her boss took her aside on Monday & said that the head of one of the department committees was stepping down, and that she might be in the running to take it over. She said that's great but what about her current workload. He said we'll work on reducing it, and anyway the committee thing probably won't happen for a couple of weeks at least. She talked to someone else who said not only was she in the running, but that she was the first choice. The next day she finds out she's actually the only choice, and has been earmarked for the position "if she wants it." The day after that her boss told her she has to take the position, that his "hands are tied," and that they'll work to reduce her other workload. Based on how he's usually handled these things, I think he's speaking empty words. And based on how SHE usually handles these things, I doubt she'll take the initiative to reduce the work load herself. Meaning she now has her current position, the "clean-up job" from her old position, and this committee. It just scares me. NOT ONLY THAT, she tried to cancel the session we just had, saying she was invited to a committee meeting. I told her if she really needed to she could, but that I'd be very hurt & would go without her. She heard me loud & clear, and showed up early to the session. And like I said it went well. So while I definitely see some POTENTIAL progress with the therapist, I also see some potential STEPS BACKWARD with her work hours. And you can bet we'll be talking about that at a future session.
2sunny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 glad you got started! what assignment do you two have... and are you going back next week? the job - does that mean she's now going to be handling the workload of three people? if so - that is completely absurd! she needs to remember - she is capable of saying NO! they need to HIRE MORE PEOPLE! they understand her home life is suffering and they intend to give her MORE work? that is THE most ridiculous solution i've ever heard... if she considers taking it - for me, THAT would definitely be a deal breaker. she has EVERY right to say NO to MANY things... NO to all of it - except her family... or she's going to be a woman that finds herself with an all important job and NO family in sight. ask the counselor to teach her that she is allowed to say no. i'd be wanting her to quit - to be honest with you... but that is just me... her employer has no mercy for family life - and her attitude about working herself into the ground certainly doesn't help. IF she wants to make her job her LIFE - then she SHOULD be willing to admit that YOU deserve a partner that WANTS to SHARE in YOUR DAILY LIFE... TOGETHER - then be willing to let you go with no animosity, knowing her priority is her work, not family time! how has she been at the house? has she been home more and participating on a more active level?
tojaz Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 NOT ONLY THAT, she tried to cancel the session we just had, saying she was invited to a committee meeting. I told her if she really needed to she could, but that I'd be very hurt & would go without her. She heard me loud & clear, and showed up early to the session. It may not seem like it, but that is HUGE! Make sure you let her now how much that means to you. Im glad the session went well and you like the therapist, and all three of you are on the same page, thats important. As for her new job, all you can do is let her know your concerns, but if her job really is on the line its going to be tough. it would be a good issue to discuss in front of the counselor as it happens. Stick with it Nick it sounds like shes getting more receptive, but its going to take time, luckily right now that is a luxury you have. TOJAZ
Author NickFeek Posted June 25, 2011 Author Posted June 25, 2011 glad you got started! what assignment do you two have... and are you going back next week? Right now she's just getting our background, etc. So it's a bit too early for an assignment. Yes, we already have an appointment for next week. the job - does that mean she's now going to be handling the workload of three people? if so - that is completely absurd! she needs to remember - she is capable of saying NO! they need to HIRE MORE PEOPLE! they understand her home life is suffering and they intend to give her MORE work? that is THE most ridiculous solution i've ever heard... if she considers taking it - for me, THAT would definitely be a deal breaker. she has EVERY right to say NO to MANY things... NO to all of it - except her family... or she's going to be a woman that finds herself with an all important job and NO family in sight. ask the counselor to teach her that she is allowed to say no. i'd be wanting her to quit - to be honest with you... but that is just me... her employer has no mercy for family life - and her attitude about working herself into the ground certainly doesn't help. IF she wants to make her job her LIFE - then she SHOULD be willing to admit that YOU deserve a partner that WANTS to SHARE in YOUR DAILY LIFE... TOGETHER - then be willing to let you go with no animosity, knowing her priority is her work, not family time! I am struggling with this. We had a fight two nights ago, when she came home to tell me it was a done deal and then asked to cancel our first therapy appointment. I stood my ground and to her credit she kept her word & showed up to do actual work with me today. BUT again she's put herself in a position where the work will pile up even worse & she'll eventually have to dig out. She used the fact that she took a day or two off last week as proof that she can put family first. I do give her credit for that, but I also told her that there's always a price - that her "days off" are just her giving up work time now to put in extra work later. AND WORSE, she is most often in a horrible mood when something is keeping her from work, so that's the other price we pay. I do expect we will discuss all this with the therapist, and I hope that a third rational party will help her to see things differently. But I have a major worry that this new position means things will just get worse all over again, and we have very little room to breathe as it is. Having said all that, I was very encouraged by today, so I'm going to enjoy that while I can and still keep a close eye on the work situation. how has she been at the house? has she been home more and participating on a more active level? She hasn't really been home more, but she has definitely been participating more. That's partly because she has decided to make an effort. And it's partly because I've made it clear that she needs to step up.
Author NickFeek Posted June 25, 2011 Author Posted June 25, 2011 It may not seem like it, but that is HUGE! Make sure you let her now how much that means to you. Im glad the session went well and you like the therapist, and all three of you are on the same page, thats important. As for her new job, all you can do is let her know your concerns, but if her job really is on the line its going to be tough. it would be a good issue to discuss in front of the counselor as it happens. Stick with it Nick it sounds like shes getting more receptive, but its going to take time, luckily right now that is a luxury you have. TOJAZ It absolutely feels huge. And when we split up after the session, I made a point of thanking her for following through. There were no revelations this first time around, of course. But we have already set a precedent of speaking honestly & openly, and doing it in a very non-confrontational way. No, her job isn't on the line. I do understand the move might be important for her, so I don't want to make it a "say no or I go" issue. But damn right we'll be discussing this both at home and with the therapist. I also told someone I talk to frequently that if her decision ends up being that she needs AND WANTS to take on this extra work & the extra hours, that it's only fair that I am allowed to re-enter my company at full capacity. It's not a situation that would be conducive to us growing closer, but if she can't spare the time for us/me/family/HERSELF, then I need to make sure I HAVE what I need. I agree we do have time. I'm in no rush and plan to exert no pressure in our sessions. She struggled SO MUCH with this, so the fact that she finally came through is something she deserves to feel good about, and deserves to know how good I feel about it. And unless we're way off the mark (which I highly doubt), we can trust this therapist to make sure things are moving forward at a healthy pace. I'm very much looking forward to our next session on Thursday.
soserious1 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) Nick, One thought that struck me is that if I were your wife I think I'd feel like I was in a no win situation here. Personally I think you reentering your company at full force isn't a bad idea, with both of you earning more perhaps you could hire out more routine domestic tasks so they time you guys do spend together isn't spent doing things like laundry and scrubbing floors? Another question, because I can't remember if I've asked you this before, has she made partner yet? if not, is this the type of firm if she doesn't make partner where her advancement prospects $ will be dead in the water? Edited June 25, 2011 by soserious1
Author NickFeek Posted June 25, 2011 Author Posted June 25, 2011 Nick, One thought that struck me is that if I were your wife I think I'd feel like I was in a no win situation here. Personally I think you reentering your company at full force isn't a bad idea, with both of you earning more perhaps you could hire out more routine domestic tasks so they time you guys do spend together isn't spent doing things like laundry and scrubbing floors? Another question, because I can't remember if I've asked you this before, has she made partner yet? if not, is this the type of firm if she doesn't make partner where her advancement prospects $ will be dead in the water? I think she OFTEN feels like she's in a no-win situation. She says she intends to sit down with get boss (he was out of town most of the week) and tell him he needs to take some things off her plate. I just don't have the confidence in her boss OR her to follow through with this. I think my full participation in my company would help the balance, but don't forget the OW works there, so this would be a HUGE concession for my wife, one I wouldn't want to bring to the table until I'm sure her work situation is not going to improve. No this company is good with its raises and bonuses even when people don't make Officer (no partners). But no question an Officer is in a vastly different tier. She has been taking solid steps forward each year. Becoming an Officer would be a huge leap. So I'm nit prepared to ask or expect her to say no to opportunities. I DO however expect her to continue to work towards making us and the family more of a priority.
soserious1 Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Nick, my thinking is this, you guys have kinda been locked into opposing corners, each of you kind of taking a my way or the highway stance. Why not look at the 3rd alternative? each of you freed up to work more more, delegating more mundane tasks to paid help? Parent/teacher conference? important.. mowing lawn? unimportant, dinner out as husband & wife? important, actually standing over a hot stove to cook dinner? unimportant. I seriously think a lot of your problems as a couple could be eased with some paid domestic help.
2sunny Posted June 25, 2011 Posted June 25, 2011 Nick, my thinking is this, you guys have kinda been locked into opposing corners, each of you kind of taking a my way or the highway stance. Why not look at the 3rd alternative? each of you freed up to work more more, delegating more mundane tasks to paid help? Parent/teacher conference? important.. mowing lawn? unimportant, dinner out as husband & wife? important, actually standing over a hot stove to cook dinner? unimportant. I seriously think a lot of your problems as a couple could be eased with some paid domestic help. while i agree that many tasks can be hired out - the main deficit Nick has had an issue with is his wife's lack of concern and connection with him and the kids. hiring things out would probably help Nick more than his wife. hire these out... but you both still need to find time for a connection and intimacy - and also for time to allow your kids to understand you are there to be supportive of them as well. maybe one of the best things your wife could work on right away could be a boundary... mainly with work. if she expects to keep balance in her life while doing the work of three people - she is sadly mistaken. she needs to learn how to tell her work NO. NO i won't take on THAT much work. NO, that is an unreasonable amount of workload for one person. NO, i won't work past dinner time... i need time with my family. boundaries, a voice, and balance...
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