Author NickFeek Posted June 16, 2011 Author Posted June 16, 2011 ok, since you made a decision that this is enough for you then this is what we have to work with. I'm confused. How did you get from what I said that this is enough for me? Yes, I've chosen for the time being to work within our marriage, but that in no way implies I'm settling for how things are now.
2sunny Posted June 16, 2011 Posted June 16, 2011 (edited) let me see if i can attach this link that goes through some co-dependency issues... http://www.cloudtownsend.com/videoserver/playlist.php?plid=PL*615 looks like it discusses feeling responsible for how someone else feels - especially when one knows it's the other person's responsibility... it's not MY responsibility to determine HOW someone ELSE feels - that is THEIRS... not mine... allowing others to handle that - not me - is a healthy way to be happy myself. i am only as happy as I choose to be. my happiness is NOT dependent on what others are or aren't doing... that is up to me. Edited June 16, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted June 16, 2011 Author Posted June 16, 2011 let me see if i can attach this link that goes through some co-dependency issues... http://www.cloudtownsend.com/videoserver/playlist.php?plid=PL*615 looks like it discusses feeling responsible for how someone else feels - especially when one knows it's the other person's responsibility... it's not MY responsibility to determine HOW someone ELSE feels - that is THEIRS... not mine... allowing others to handle that - not me - is a healthy way to be happy myself. i am only as happy as I choose to be. my happiness is NOT dependent on what others are or aren't doing... that is up to me. I read the book. I get the concept. There is a serious flaw in logic here. Please explain what you would do or how you would feel in the scenario I set forth about my wife not taking it upon herself to get home at a decent time on any given weeknight? Do you have no faith in your fellow human? I really think you are confusing lack of codependency with complete detachment. You really can't have it both ways. IF you are in a relationship with another flawed human, there will inevitably be things they do you aren't happy with. That's DIFFERENT BY A MILE from saying that person MAKES you unhappy. I can be generally happy yet unhappy with one particular issue. I really think at this point in the codependency discussion you are talking in circles.
Author NickFeek Posted June 16, 2011 Author Posted June 16, 2011 Look, I understand that both my wife & I have codependency traits, but one thing I fundamentally disagreed with in that book is that the ONLY way to solve them is to go cold turkey a la AA. There's a vast gray area (some call it a relationship) that is in between being fully codependent and completely free. That's where the real work happens. Just as there are varying degrees of alcoholics, workaholics, etc., there are varying degrees of codependency. Not ALL of ANY of these ailments is a candidate for a 12-step cold turkey program. There are many other ways to handle the less severe cases, some of which yield better and more lasting results. I'm in that gray area now. It's not pleasant at all, but it's where we need to be. And while in there we ARE going to AFFECT each other's MOODS. It doesn't mean I'm settling AT ALL. The only way out is THROUGH.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 i have boundaries that i set for myself that allow me to be happy, healthy and safe. IF any one or more scenarios come into play that cross MY boundary... then i implement my choice to change things. i never sit in a crappy situation and find it to be acceptable. but that is just me. for instance - i am a recovered alcoholic... i require my home to represent the boundaries i outline. when difficulties have come up - i have choices. i implement change. it is painful at times - but worth sticking to my boundary. for instance... my kids growing up would show clear signs of doing things i wasn't "happy" about. they, at times, would drink, smoke pot and get angry at situations. i don't live with those things in my household. so... IF they wanted to DO that stuff - it wasn't happening in or around me or my home. when they crossed that boundary - i told them (kindly) to leave. don't come back unless they wanted to follow the rules in my home of "happy, healthy and safe." i always reminded them i loved them - but didn't like the behavior. we train people how to treat us. they are always honest and communicative with me... i don't always like it all... but i do love them and appreciate their honesty and willingness to respect me - as i also respect them. it was painful to watch...but worth it after they respected MY boundary. for now, they never consider crossing my boundary, in my home, because they know i don't tolerate that behavior. they know when they are with me things in my environment are safe and happy. it never meant i didn't love them - it SHOWED them clearly that i don't tolerate unacceptable behavior. IF it's something(s) you don't wish to tolerate - you CAN change things - for you.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Just as there are varying degrees of alcoholics oh man - THIS i do have more experience with than you know... there is no varying degrees... either you are or you aren't! no two ways about it - i know that one for sure. there are four types of alcoholics: active dry recovering recovered (one day at a time) you may actually be referring to "problem drinker vs alcoholic. a problem drinker isn't always an alcoholic.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 i have boundaries that i set for myself that allow me to be happy, healthy and safe. IF any one or more scenarios come into play that cross MY boundary... then i implement my choice to change things. i never sit in a crappy situation and find it to be acceptable. but that is just me. for instance - i am a recovered alcoholic... i require my home to represent the boundaries i outline. when difficulties have come up - i have choices. i implement change. it is painful at times - but worth sticking to my boundary. for instance... my kids growing up would show clear signs of doing things i wasn't "happy" about. they, at times, would drink, smoke pot and get angry at situations. i don't live with those things in my household. so... IF they wanted to DO that stuff - it wasn't happening in or around me or my home. when they crossed that boundary - i told them (kindly) to leave. don't come back unless they wanted to follow the rules in my home of "happy, healthy and safe." i always reminded them i loved them - but didn't like the behavior. we train people how to treat us. they are always honest and communicative with me... i don't always like it all... but i do love them and appreciate their honesty and willingness to respect me - as i also respect them. it was painful to watch...but worth it after they respected MY boundary. for now, they never consider crossing my boundary, in my home, because they know i don't tolerate that behavior. they know when they are with me things in my environment are safe and happy. it never meant i didn't love them - it SHOWED them clearly that i don't tolerate unacceptable behavior. IF it's something(s) you don't wish to tolerate - you CAN change things - for you. I see what you mean, and I can see how that is one very effective way to deal with things. Completely valid & bold. I'm just saying there are other ways. In my case, our issues are more subtle, and not as severe, so that allows us more variation in how we deal with them. I know that I'd LOVE for her work situation to change, but if other more crucial things change, then I'm willing to compromise on that issue. I'm not willing to stop trying to modify our weekly/daily routine, but I am willing to live with this problem while we work on other things. It's just a difference in style in my opinion.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 oh man - THIS i do have more experience with than you know... there is no varying degrees... either you are or you aren't! no two ways about it - i know that one for sure. there are four types of alcoholics: active dry recovering recovered (one day at a time) you may actually be referring to "problem drinker vs alcoholic. a problem drinker isn't always an alcoholic. Okay that does make sense, and that's probably what I meant. Sorry about that! I think in our case it's possible that we exhibit codependent tendencies but are not full-on codependents - understanding that this is different from a substance problem which is more serious. If there's an equivalent phrase as "problem drinker" for a "lesser" codependent, then maybe that's what this is.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 i think the biggest element in your codependency is not knowing where your boundary is. you could consider what a healthy boundary, for you, looks like... and start sticking to that boundary, yes? generally - when there is no boundary... it allows people to walk all over us with no consequences - those consequences implement needed change. this may be where the disconnect is happening...
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I see what you mean, and I can see how that is one very effective way to deal with things. Completely valid & bold. I'm just saying there are other ways. In my case, our issues are more subtle, and not as severe, so that allows us more variation in how we deal with them. I know that I'd LOVE for her work situation to change, but if other more crucial things change, then I'm willing to compromise on that issue. I'm not willing to stop trying to modify our weekly/daily routine, but I am willing to live with this problem while we work on other things. It's just a difference in style in my opinion. she's very strong willed - she MAY never change... you need to figure out how YOU will be happy whether she changes things or not.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 i think the biggest element in your codependency is not knowing where your boundary is. you could consider what a healthy boundary, for you, looks like... and start sticking to that boundary, yes? generally - when there is no boundary... it allows people to walk all over us with no consequences - those consequences implement needed change. this may be where the disconnect is happening... Okay so I need to be clear within myself about what I'm willing to tolerate & not, and then enact that. That's really the process I'm going through now. I am willing to shift the boundary for certain things, but not for others. And then still OTHERS I hope to work out through counseling - i.e. we both get a clearer picture of what the issues are & where the middle ground could be.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Okay so I need to be clear within myself about what I'm willing to tolerate & not, and then enact that. That's really the process I'm going through now. I am willing to shift the boundary for certain things, but not for others. And then still OTHERS I hope to work out through counseling - i.e. we both get a clearer picture of what the issues are & where the middle ground could be. it is yours- and yours alone... a boundary not based upon what someone else is or isn't doing... it's not a process- it is a decision. you decide - then stick to it. if you are thinking counseling is gonna give you magic... you are going for the wrong reasons. the counselor will most likely find a way for BOTH of you to compromise what your wants/needs are. write down what YOUR boundary needs to be - then stick to it. you keep thinking it's some obscure thing(s) that are unattainable... it's not like that. what makes you happy? what makes you unhappy? write it down. you seem to always consider her, her feelings, her needs - way more than you consider your own. good balance considers you first. then knowing that you are in a GOOD place - YOU share your healthy self with others... keeping in mind your boundary that keeps YOU in a happy place... no matter what anyone else IS or ISN'T doing. she clearly considers what SHE wants above and beyond anyone else... to the point of working (cuz she loves it), ignoring her families needs, not sleeping with you, not being intimate with you, and not being available. why should you worry about her when she isn't worried about you? YOU need to worry about YOU! the boundary should look simple - clear cut. i think your codependency is making it difficult for you to even consider what a healthy boundary may look like for you.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 even when she knows the M is on THE LINE - and YOU want her home - she still doesn't come home at a reasonable hour... she doesn't use her ACTIONS to show that she even cares about what you want or think. she only thinks of herself. you can't MAKE her consider YOUR feelings. she just seems like she won't.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 she's very strong willed - she MAY never change... you need to figure out how YOU will be happy whether she changes things or not. That's part of the process here, and I do believe there is a process to this.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 it is yours- and yours alone... a boundary not based upon what someone else is or isn't doing... it's not a process- it is a decision. you decide - then stick to it. if you are thinking counseling is gonna give you magic... you are going for the wrong reasons. the counselor will most likely find a way for BOTH of you to compromise what your wants/needs are. write down what YOUR boundary needs to be - then stick to it. you keep thinking it's some obscure thing(s) that are unattainable... it's not like that. what makes you happy? what makes you unhappy? write it down. you seem to always consider her, her feelings, her needs - way more than you consider your own. good balance considers you first. then knowing that you are in a GOOD place - YOU share your healthy self with others... keeping in mind your boundary that keeps YOU in a happy place... no matter what anyone else IS or ISN'T doing. she clearly considers what SHE wants above and beyond anyone else... to the point of working (cuz she loves it), ignoring her families needs, not sleeping with you, not being intimate with you, and not being available. why should you worry about her when she isn't worried about you? YOU need to worry about YOU! the boundary should look simple - clear cut. i think your codependency is making it difficult for you to even consider what a healthy boundary may look like for you. Well no, I disagree. I think there can be a process, especially when life is not so black and white. And the process can be valuable both to determine and help you decide what boundaries are acceptable to you for the long haul, and to help you discover other things as you go. No question I often consider what will make her happy, but what these last several months have taught me is that ignoring my own needs & happiness will make BOTH of us unhappy, so that is no longer an option for me. It is, again, a matter of discovering what I'm willing to live with. Definitely still working on what a healthy boundary is. But I'm getting there.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 even when she knows the M is on THE LINE - and YOU want her home - she still doesn't come home at a reasonable hour... she doesn't use her ACTIONS to show that she even cares about what you want or think. she only thinks of herself. you can't MAKE her consider YOUR feelings. she just seems like she won't. Oh and I've told her that. You can imagine her (non)response. THIS is why we need couples therapy. Not as a magic bullet, but as a regular, routine forum for us to deal with this stuff, a place where she can't hide behind standard behaviors or excuses (and me neither of course). And I also believe that her hearing in a safe, neutral place WHY things upset me may make her reconsider her stance. It may not, and I'll have to deal with that if it comes out that way, but it's worth a shot, and will be a much better remedy than anything we've been able to accomplish at home. Too many distractions.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 i'm concerned you are putting all your eggs in one basket with the hopes that this will change things... i'm hoping you aren't setting yourself up to be disappointed if she never changes. just viewing things realistically - knowing she has fully expressed NO DESIRE to change a thing. she's happy: to work MANY hours to avoid being home to sleep in a separate bed to not have sex with you to not participate with the responsibilities it takes to keep a home operating to not eat dinner with the family to ignore your wants and needs to avoid the kids wants and needs what happens when the kids get older... and you can't try and sway her to get home for the kids? will it be enough to be on your own most days and nights... knowing she's doing what she wants... working? when you are 80 - will you look back and say - i'm glad i stayed married to a woman who didn't hold me/our marriage/our family - as her priority? i'm glad i'm lonely while she's doing what she wants? i'm only asking - to be realistic- about your happiness... and what it looks like as we grow older. i'm happy Nick- but my happiness is NOT dependent on what a man in my life is or is not doing. when i choose to be with a man- IF he doesn't make me feel important, loved, cherished and happy to be with him - he is OUT. mainly because if he is not adding a TON of great things and great reasons to spend time and energy with him - i may as well be on my own... my SO better SHOW me i am a priority in his life= otherwise there's simply no point.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 the counselor will learn you two know how to talk - and sway each other with empty words and no action based upon the spoken words... getting both of you to DO things differently is going to be the proof in the pudding. being on the brink of D - and still not much change or effort shows she doesn't believe change is really necessary. she seems to be skimming by to appease you - so you settle down enough to be quiet and do what you've always done.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 i'm concerned you are putting all your eggs in one basket with the hopes that this will change things... i'm hoping you aren't setting yourself up to be disappointed if she never changes. just viewing things realistically - knowing she has fully expressed NO DESIRE to change a thing. she's happy: to work MANY hours to avoid being home to sleep in a separate bed to not have sex with you to not participate with the responsibilities it takes to keep a home operating to not eat dinner with the family to ignore your wants and needs to avoid the kids wants and needs what happens when the kids get older... and you can't try and sway her to get home for the kids? will it be enough to be on your own most days and nights... knowing she's doing what she wants... working? when you are 80 - will you look back and say - i'm glad i stayed married to a woman who didn't hold me/our marriage/our family - as her priority? i'm glad i'm lonely while she's doing what she wants? i'm only asking - to be realistic- about your happiness... and what it looks like as we grow older. i'm happy Nick- but my happiness is NOT dependent on what a man in my life is or is not doing. when i choose to be with a man- IF he doesn't make me feel important, loved, cherished and happy to be with him - he is OUT. mainly because if he is not adding a TON of great things and great reasons to spend time and energy with him - i may as well be on my own... my SO better SHOW me i am a priority in his life= otherwise there's simply no point. I wouldn't say I'm setting myself up. I'm prepared to be disappointed and to move on from her if she never changes. I'm open to accepting whatever the most likely outcome is, and that does not include me staying in the marriage with NO significant change. I bolded the items above I think are not exactly true. The others I agree with. I think she does want the bolded items, and does have the capacity to make those happen. It depends on: A. her willingness to do the work with me and for herself; and B. her ability to fully process my infidelity so that does not continue to get in the way of her doing these things. I've been struggling with that "looking back" question for over a year. It's partly what got me into the cheating mess, and very much what is motivating me to want to change things. Whether she's aware or not (and I think she IS aware), this is her/our last chance to get this stuff right, because I DO NOT want to look back in regret over being lonely & neglected.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 the counselor will learn you two know how to talk - and sway each other with empty words and no action based upon the spoken words... getting both of you to DO things differently is going to be the proof in the pudding. being on the brink of D - and still not much change or effort shows she doesn't believe change is really necessary. she seems to be skimming by to appease you - so you settle down enough to be quiet and do what you've always done. I'm hoping that IS what the counselor learns, and in fact I'm going to tell her that point blank so she doesn't have to figure it out. AND DARN RIGHT the proof in the pudding is to see if the three of us can effect actual action & change. I know my wife well enough to know she rarely takes my word for something without having to verify it elsewhere. She changed departments only after two other people at work told her they ALSO thought it was a good idea, to cite just one of many examples. This is definitely insulting to me, but at least I know she's open to finding out the best course when I have suggested something. SO what I'm saying here is that my hope is she'll hear things from the counselor that I've been asking/pleading/telling/etc. her, and that having that verification will prompt her to take action, as it HAS DONE several times in the past. Then again, your last paragraph could continue to hold true indefinitely, at which point I'm going to have to lay it on the line for her.
2sunny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I know my wife well enough to know she rarely takes my word for something without having to verify it elsewhere. She changed departments only after two other people at work told her they ALSO thought it was a good idea, to cite just one of many examples. This is definitely insulting to me, but at least I know she's open to finding out the best course when I have suggested something. from what you describe... seems she doesn't value your opinion. to be disregarded, discounted and disrespected by her is very concerning.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 from what you describe... seems she doesn't value your opinion. to be disregarded, discounted and disrespected by her is very concerning. Yes, when it comes to matters in which she feels she is the authority - work & marriage for the most part, she always needs validation from someone other than me, even though much of the time I turn out to be right. For work in particular, she believes that since I've had a job like hers, I couldn't possibly understand the true nature and parameters, so any opinion I have is based on faulty or incomplete information. It's frustrating to say the least, especially because her taking that stance gives her a convenient excuse to never fully explain why she works the way she does.
soserious1 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Yes. I think she feels like she made the decision under duress. She still insists this is part of my grand plan to unload on her and point out all her faults. She also is still pissed I am talking to people besides her, yet won't tell me anything she discusses with her family. That's her right. It just seems like a double standard. This week nothing has changed. It is finals week for our two older kids, and she HAS done a ton of studying work with them. But it's been impossible to get her to come home before 8pm. Nick, part of what she's saying is reality based, she did make the decision to go to MC under the threat of divorce. I would focus my thoughts on the positive, she's agreed to go and though this won't be easy or pleasant for either of you, she has committed to trying instead of deciding to simply divorce. She was very against MC, for her to agree is a huge concession from her. Good luck to both of you, I truly hope MC meets both of your needs.
Author NickFeek Posted June 17, 2011 Author Posted June 17, 2011 Nick, part of what she's saying is reality based, she did make the decision to go to MC under the threat of divorce. I would focus my thoughts on the positive, she's agreed to go and though this won't be easy or pleasant for either of you, she has committed to trying instead of deciding to simply divorce. She was very against MC, for her to agree is a huge concession from her. Good luck to both of you, I truly hope MC meets both of your needs. That's true. And I said to a friend of mine that she can feel however she needs to about it, as long as we get in the door & get started. I'm hoping she'll be pleasantly surprised at how NOT one-sided it will be. Thanks!
tojaz Posted June 18, 2011 Posted June 18, 2011 That's true. And I said to a friend of mine that she can feel however she needs to about it, as long as we get in the door & get started. I'm hoping she'll be pleasantly surprised at how NOT one-sided it will be. Thanks! Counseling can be a great help Nick, but its a lot like a meal, regardless of the skill and talent of the chef, they can only do so much with the ingredients their given. For counseling, that means BOTH of you walking into the office with an open mind and a willingness to put in the work and for both of you to make changes to rebuild your marriage. If thats not present on both sides, counseling isn't going to help. TOJAZ
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