25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

it's good that she's getting SOME things out in the open - and these are the things she COULD be DOING some things about.

 

holding them inside and stuffing it all down would make anyone angry - but she learned that behavior pattern- and i'd bet money she learned how to do THAT well as a child.

 

hearing her have a voice is a healthy response/reaction to her pain and anger...

 

now we are getting somewhere... i hope she will keep it up.

 

write down all the things she says in those honest/emotional outbursts! THIS will be the list you need to take to the counselors office with you.

 

hand the list over and state simply "you may never get my wife's truth (at best only small fractions of it) so here's a list of what she does finally tell me after 25 years - here's the list from which we can start."

 

that will be a good place to get straight to the honesty part.

 

 

she DOES have time to call you from work when SHE wants to - how does that feel?

 

Absolutely. And my goal is to find a counselor that will make her comfortable enough (with my help) to say even more. And of course to be here for her as much as she wants to talk to me.

 

I'm sure she learned to repress just about everything as a child, except for her "superego", which has always had no trouble coming out in full force.

 

I can tell that her venting/talking is definitely relieving pressure for her, especially since I am accepting it all, not responding defensively, and generally trying my best to make it safe for her to express anything that comes to mind.

 

I have no dignity to lose at this point, so I'm willing to hear whatever she has to say.

 

Writing it down is a good idea.

 

I'm always happy/relieved when she calls or emails, even during these tough times. My concern - and one again based on our history - is that if/when the crisis dies down, she will go back to working straight through the day. No idea how to prevent this.

[trippi1432]

Nick...your last few posts disturb me a little...perhaps some clarification is needed. I know you mentioned the emails before, but did you save them purposely? What was the importance in you picking the counselor? And how do feel she will benefit from it so much? Is that really for her benefit, your benefit or for the two of you to save the marriage?

[NickFeek]

Nick...your last few posts disturb me a little...perhaps some clarification is needed. I know you mentioned the emails before, but did you save them purposely? What was the importance in you picking the counselor? And how do feel she will benefit from it so much? Is that really for her benefit, your benefit or for the two of you to save the marriage?

 

Okay. Good questions all.

 

I learned the hard way this weekend that just because you erase all trace of emails from one computer doesn't mean they're erased from every computer. I assumed my email provider kept its cache of emails on its server, so that ALL locations would be updated accordingly. I had erased all of them many many months ago, or so I thought. It's been so hard for her, painful for me, and a comeuppance I deserved.

 

It's not important that I picked the counselor. It's just that A. she'd never take out the time to do it; and B. she's still not sure she wants to, so even if she had the time she would not have done the research. So I made every effort to find someone I think she'd be comfortable with, and was close by & flex enough to fit her schedule. And of course if she doesn't like her there are others we can try. I'm just trying to make this as easy a step as possible.

 

I believe she'll benefit from it because she'll have a safe place to say anything she needs to, and a supportive pair of ears. She will most likely hear the counselor agree with much of what she has to say, so it will be validating and empowering. But hopefully the counselor will also put both of our hurts into context, so that we can find a common place to work from. My hope is that it will benefit both of us as individuals secondarily, but that PRIMARILY of course it will benefit our marriage by helping us communicate and heal, giving us a healthier place to start from, and allow us to build something much stronger and more realistic/honest that what we've had.

 

Even she agrees that the mountain of stuff we have to work through is daunting and seemingly impossible. So even though she's not trusting I'll stick to this request (I will), and is reluctant to do this, I'm very sure she'll find some relief that we'll have help, clarification, etc.

[2sunny]

It's not important that I picked the counselor. It's just that A. she'd never take out the time to do it; and B. she's still not sure she wants to, so even if she had the time she would not have done the research. So I made every effort to find someone I think she'd be comfortable with, and was close by & flex enough to fit her schedule. And of course if she doesn't like her there are others we can try. I'm just trying to make this as easy a step as possible.

 

I believe she'll benefit from it because she'll have a safe place to say anything she needs to, and a supportive pair of ears. She will most likely hear the counselor agree with much of what she has to say, so it will be validating and empowering. But hopefully the counselor will also put both of our hurts into context, so that we can find a common place to work from. My hope is that it will benefit both of us as individuals secondarily, but that PRIMARILY of course it will benefit our marriage by helping us communicate and heal, giving us a healthier place to start from, and allow us to build something much stronger and more realistic/honest that what we've had.

 

remember you were working on HER participating? her taking action? how can she when YOU do everything for her? where do YOU end and she begins? you won't allow her to be the person she needs to be because you are manipulating and controlling her every move - even by picking the counselor. you need to allow her to have a say as to what SHE wants/ doesn't want... this is called respect. give her room to learn what she is about without your HELP (which really doesn't help) - it merely creates MORE co dependency.

 

Nick, you seem to be controlling everything. your last few posts are trying so hard to MAKE SURE she's gonna do it - and do it your way. step away - give her room to find a way that works for HER... you find a way that works for YOU - by doing things opposite of the way you've always done them... start now.

 

let HER pick the counselor. IF she intends to go - she should be the one to CHOOSE it for HERSELF. THAT alone is very telling. stop making all these decisions for her/in her best interest! stop it! she isn't 2 years old- yet you treat her like she is.

 

IF she intends to go - SHE WILL CALL!!!! if she doesn't - then she won't! tell her that you decided she's a grown woman and can get a counselor if SHE so CHOOSES. IF she takes action on that - it will tell you what you need to know... that she IS willing to find one SHE likes.

 

you seem to be a bit of a control freak - making her look like a child. let her grow up...

 

re-read co-dependent no more.

 

YOU spending all YOUR time making sure SHE is COMFORTABLE is COMPLETELY backwards.

 

start over - you need a re-do...

 

let her be an adult! let go enough to give her room to find her way. it's good practice - you will need to do it with your kids once they get older - so begin to let go now...

[2sunny]

I believe she'll benefit from it because she'll have a safe place to say anything she needs to, and a supportive pair of ears. She will most likely hear the counselor agree with much of what she has to say, so it will be validating and empowering. But hopefully the counselor will also put both of our hurts into context, so that we can find a common place to work from. My hope is that it will benefit both of us as individuals secondarily, but that PRIMARILY of course it will benefit our marriage by helping us communicate and heal, giving us a healthier place to start from, and allow us to build something much stronger and more realistic/honest that what we've had.

 

Even she agrees that the mountain of stuff we have to work through is daunting and seemingly impossible. So even though she's not trusting I'll stick to this request (I will), and is reluctant to do this, I'm very sure she'll find some relief that we'll have help, clarification, etc.

 

these are HUGE expectations... especially given the circumstances.

 

expectations are what will eventually disappoint us EVERY time.

 

expect nothing. she may not go...

 

she may wait 10 more years until she takes action.

 

she may want to talk about it forever and DO nothing about changing things.

 

remember - she likes it the way it was... she said so.

 

expectations Nick - YOU are on a slippery slope.

 

essentially not much at home has changed... yet you have all these expectations that SHE should change.

 

that counselor will want CHANGE from YOU as well... have you quit that job yet?

 

if not - why should she believe you won't cheat again? how can she know you don't have your former OW waiting in the wings? where's your evidence to your wife that you are willing to DO anything to change the M?

 

IF a job is more important than your wife - then we have an answer.

 

IF your W needs to quit her job - the counselor MAY suggest it - that decision will be up to your wife to decide IF she loves you more than her work.

 

it's a crap shoot - but you seems to be placing all the focus on being sure YOU make all the decisions to make your W comfortable. that's just not realistic.

 

when we change = EVERYTHING gets UNCOMFORTABLE. so stop trying so hard to make her comfortable.

 

get good with being uncomfortable Nick... get real good at it.

[NickFeek]

remember you were working on HER participating? her taking action? how can she when YOU do everything for her? where do YOU end and she begins? you won't allow her to be the person she needs to be because you are manipulating and controlling her every move - even by picking the counselor. you need to allow her to have a say as to what SHE wants/ doesn't want... this is called respect. give her room to learn what she is about without your HELP (which really doesn't help) - it merely creates MORE co dependency.

 

Nick, you seem to be controlling everything. your last few posts are trying so hard to MAKE SURE she's gonna do it - and do it your way. step away - give her room to find a way that works for HER... you find a way that works for YOU - by doing things opposite of the way you've always done them... start now.

 

let HER pick the counselor. IF she intends to go - she should be the one to CHOOSE it for HERSELF. THAT alone is very telling. stop making all these decisions for her/in her best interest! stop it! she isn't 2 years old- yet you treat her like she is.

 

IF she intends to go - SHE WILL CALL!!!! if she doesn't - then she won't! tell her that you decided she's a grown woman and can get a counselor if SHE so CHOOSES. IF she takes action on that - it will tell you what you need to know... that she IS willing to find one SHE likes.

 

you seem to be a bit of a control freak - making her look like a child. let her grow up...

 

re-read co-dependent no more.

 

YOU spending all YOUR time making sure SHE is COMFORTABLE is COMPLETELY backwards.

 

start over - you need a re-do...

 

let her be an adult! let go enough to give her room to find her way. it's good practice - you will need to do it with your kids once they get older - so begin to let go now...

 

Really this just borders on silly. How can you say any of this knowing how reluctant she is to take action? While it's important for her to do things for herself, there IS an appropriate time for a loved one to step in. You are contradicting yourself.

 

Do you really think that she'll make that call? Ever? And if she doesn't, do you really think what she/we have been able to do at home will work? It's almost infuriating that you're pulling out the codependent card at a time like this.

 

YOU should reread the codependency book, because it clearly states that some level of involvement & dependence in any relationship is a good thing. THIS IS A CRISIS, not Lesson Time. I am stepping in to facilitate communication & change, after which it WILL be up to her. Consider it an intervention if you will.

 

And it's clear from the fiasco that was this weekend that I'm not controlling anything. You're reading wayyyyyy into this based on something that is not here. If I were a control freak, we would have been in counseling months ago. We would have done EVERYTHING my way. We weren't and we didn't, and I'm smart and experienced enough to know that me forcing her to do anything won't result in something good. You're mistaking TAKING ACTION with controlling.

 

FOR SOMETHING AS DELICATE FOR HER AS COUNSELING, I think it's 1000% percent appropriate for me to make sure she's comfortable. In fact, I think it's thoughtful, compassionate & courteous. As I said, if she doesn't like the woman, we can go to someone else.

 

THE IMPORTANT THING HERE IS THAT WE TAKE THIS FIRST STEP - however it happens, whoever initiates it.

 

This is an incredibly short-sighted response. And EVERYONE on this forum needs to understand that NO ONE knows what will work for us as a couple better than I do, and if I'm expending so much time explaining my very well thought out reasons for KNOWING that counseling is a CRUCIAL step, then please just accept that and move on to another topic.

 

NO ONE HERE so far has given me one good reason why this is the wrong thing to do. Yes, you've tried, but you've all fallen short.

[NickFeek]

these are HUGE expectations... especially given the circumstances.

 

expectations are what will eventually disappoint us EVERY time.

 

expect nothing. she may not go...

 

she may wait 10 more years until she takes action.

 

she may want to talk about it forever and DO nothing about changing things.

 

remember - she likes it the way it was... she said so.

 

expectations Nick - YOU are on a slippery slope.

 

essentially not much at home has changed... yet you have all these expectations that SHE should change.

 

that counselor will want CHANGE from YOU as well... have you quit that job yet?

 

if not - why should she believe you won't cheat again? how can she know you don't have your former OW waiting in the wings? where's your evidence to your wife that you are willing to DO anything to change the M?

 

IF a job is more important than your wife - then we have an answer.

 

IF your W needs to quit her job - the counselor MAY suggest it - that decision will be up to your wife to decide IF she loves you more than her work.

 

it's a crap shoot - but you seems to be placing all the focus on being sure YOU make all the decisions to make your W comfortable. that's just not realistic.

 

when we change = EVERYTHING gets UNCOMFORTABLE. so stop trying so hard to make her comfortable.

 

get good with being uncomfortable Nick... get real good at it.

 

Step back 2sunny. You're preaching and I'm just not in the mood. You are a broken record because you're not listening to me.

 

I have expectations that WE as a couple should change.

 

I have been uncomfortable for a long time. I'm ready for more of it. Whatever it takes. I've told her I'll do whatever she needs me to do. She doesn't want me to quit the job. She understands how important it is to me, and if you'd read the description of this little company, you'd understand as well. She has asked me to keep my work in the company to things that don't involve the OW, and I've agreed. It makes things harder, and reduces my options, but I'm willing to do that, and it's enough for her.

 

Really just enough. Find something else.

[2sunny]

you not trusting that she will make the effort once she makes that decision is the basis of what's wrong... you don't trust she will do it.

 

that is a huge problem Nick. huge.

 

when someone decides to DO something, it is up to that person to take action... so let her.

 

you don't trust she will take action - yikes.

 

a counselor is an extremely personal decision - yet you are making that decision FOR HER - she may resent you for merely choosing her counselor.

 

 

she's a big girl - time for big girl panties... we won't know if she intends to wear her big girl panties as long as you keep doing everything she needs to be doing.

 

we are back to the beginning of this scene. IF you stop doing EVERYTHING for her - SHE may actually be forced to participate... but she never will as long as you keep acting like her parent.

 

let her mess it up - at least she'd be making the effort. the way it's designed now - she gets to blame you - because YOU won't back away and see what she's capable of handling.

 

she's not a child. stop trying to fix everything for her... start by adjusting YOU - and the way YOU participate. this is "old behavior" since you don't EXPECT her to DO it - you WILL do it for her, so SHE has to do it, and do it your way. the whole scene screams resentment before you two even get started.

[NickFeek]

you not trusting that she will make the effort once she makes that decision is the basis of what's wrong... you don't trust she will do it.

 

that is a huge problem Nick. huge.

 

when someone decides to DO something, it is up to that person to take action... so let her.

you don't trust she will take action - yikes.

 

a counselor is an extremely personal decision - yet you are making that decision FOR HER - she may resent you for merely choosing her counselor.

 

 

she's a big girl - time for big girl panties... we won't know if she intends to wear her big girl panties as long as you keep doing everything she needs to be doing.

 

we are back to the beginning of this scene. IF you stop doing EVERYTHING for her - SHE may actually be forced to participate... but she never will as long as you keep acting like her parent.

 

let her mess it up - at least she'd be making the effort. the way it's designed now - she gets to blame you - because YOU won't back away and see what she's capable of handling.

 

she's not a child. stop trying to fix everything for her... start by adjusting YOU - and the way YOU participate. this is "old behavior" since you don't EXPECT her to DO it - you WILL do it for her, so SHE has to do it, and do it your way. the whole scene screams resentment before you two even get started.

 

OF COURSE I don't trust she will take action. She rarely does. Just because she doesn't initially want to do something doesn't mean she won't warm up to it given the right conditions.

 

ONCE AGAIN, I said that if she does not like the counselor we can go to another. The important thing is taking the first step - something I would be my life on she will never do on her own.

 

I will back away & let her do things when we are actually doing real work on this marriage. If I sit here now and wait for that, the marriage will either devolve into what it's always been, or it will be done.

 

Sorry, you're just wrong about this. She has and will have resentment no matter what I do. I know her better than anyone, and I am certain beyond a doubt that getting us IN THE DOOR to any counselor is the right step to take.

[2sunny]

just for this forceful nature alone - if i were her - i wouldn't go.

 

just saying.

 

 

 

you can't make her do things your way - and you aren't willing to allow her the room to find a way that works, for her.

 

i sure hope i'm wrong Nick.

 

your unwillingness to back away from DOING the things SHE could be participating in (with) isn't helping to get her to take action. allow room for her growth...

 

it feels squishy in here now...

[NickFeek]

As you can tell, I'm having a bad day. I'm pretty upset & just exhausted - this is grueling and endless and frustrating. Please respect that I actually have a clue what I'm doing, and that I actually know my wife. And I apologize for the outbursts.

[NickFeek]

just for this forceful nature alone - if i were her - i wouldn't go.

 

just saying.

 

 

 

you can't make her do things your way - and you aren't willing to allow her the room to find a way that works, for her.

 

i sure hope i'm wrong Nick.

 

your unwillingness to back away from DOING the things SHE could be participating in (with) isn't helping to get her to take action. allow room for her growth...

 

it feels squishy in here now...

 

What's her way? What is her way? Please enlighten me.

[trippi1432]

No Nick....counseling would be a good thing for you both, in my opinion. Just given the new trauma with recently finding the emails, I can understand she is all over the place....and she has every right to be. It isn't co-dependent to be wake up and feel remorseful for what happened and to be sensitive to what she is going through. It isn't co-dependent to want to help someone you love and care for.

 

The only thing now is that with the new trauma of finding the emails and really putting a "picture" in her head, you may not get what you are hoping for on a decision for counseling by the weekend. Closing off emotionally and as a supportive spouse now would just seal the fate in my opinion. This is a crisis, the strength in a marriage is getting through it together the best way you know how and works for the TWO people involved.

[2sunny]

What's her way? What is her way? Please enlighten me.

 

who knows? that is what we need to find out! her way has never been revealed because there's never been room for "her way"

 

 

IF she adjusts enough to find out what HER WAY may look like - she may be able to participate on a level that makes all of you happy. she won't need to adjust if you keep doing things the same as you always have. let HER make decisions, then let her take the action.

 

by making these important decisions for her - you don't allow room for her to find out what her way may look like.

 

ask her what she wants - does SHE want to find a counselor or does she want you to find one for her? ask her permission, at the very least.

[2sunny]

As you can tell, I'm having a bad day. I'm pretty upset & just exhausted - this is grueling and endless and frustrating. Please respect that I actually have a clue what I'm doing, and that I actually know my wife. And I apologize for the outbursts.

 

hugs... sorry for the heavy hitting... maybe i should back away now...

[NickFeek]

No Nick....counseling would be a good thing for you both, in my opinion. Just given the new trauma with recently finding the emails, I can understand she is all over the place....and she has every right to be. It isn't co-dependent to be wake up and feel remorseful for what happened and to be sensitive to what she is going through. It isn't co-dependent to want to help someone you love and care for.

 

The only thing now is that with the new trauma of finding the emails and really putting a "picture" in her head, you may not get what you are hoping for on a decision for counseling by the weekend. Closing off emotionally and as a supportive spouse now would just seal the fate in my opinion. This is a crisis, the strength in a marriage is getting through it together the best way you know how and works for the TWO people involved.

 

Thank you. I agree that I may need to give her more time. This is a huge setback for her.

[NickFeek]

who knows? that is what we need to find out! her way has never been revealed because there's never been room for "her way"

 

 

IF she adjusts enough to find out what HER WAY may look like - she may be able to participate on a level that makes all of you happy. she won't need to adjust if you keep doing things the same as you always have. let HER make decisions, then let her take the action.

 

by making these important decisions for her - you don't allow room for her to find out what her way may look like.

 

ask her what she wants - does SHE want to find a counselor or does she want you to find one for her? ask her permission, at the very least.

 

She's had plenty of room and time in 20 years to find what works for her. And what works is retreating into herself and into work.

 

I will give her all the space she needs to choose an ultimate counselor for us, but I am taking this first step.

[NickFeek]

hugs... sorry for the heavy hitting... maybe i should back away now...

 

It's okay. I'm venting my frustrations and anger inappropriately. You always have something insightful to say, even if I dont agree all the time. Rightfully I suppose, I've beaten up and torn down a ton in the last four days, and its really gotten to me. Gonna go get a homemade cookie.

[soserious1]

Nick, in my experiences with LS, I can tell you that when start feeling angry with responses you're getting here, that's often a good time to step away from here for a couple of days. This is a great place but it can get overwhelming emotionally.

[NickFeek]

Whoops. Meant to say I've BEEN beaten up and torn down.

[NickFeek]

Nick, in my experiences with LS, I can tell you that when start feeling angry with responses you're getting here, that's often a good time to step away from here for a couple of days. This is a great place but it can get overwhelming emotionally.

 

Thanks for the advice. I had no idea!

[NickFeek]

I am really low today and don't know what to do. This weekend has seemed to knock me completely off track.

 

Any advice?

[2sunny]

when things are tough- i meditate!

 

it helps keep me calm, centered and balanced. it helps me to see what i need to see - to listen to that quiet voice that i need to hear... the one that tells me what the next step is...

[NickFeek]

when things are tough- i meditate!

 

it helps keep me calm, centered and balanced. it helps me to see what i need to see - to listen to that quiet voice that i need to hear... the one that tells me what the next step is...

 

A friend of mine said the same thing.

 

I am feeling like the next step is to surrender to the process. It does not feel good.

[Steen719]

when things are tough- i meditate!

 

it helps keep me calm, centered and balanced. it helps me to see what i need to see - to listen to that quiet voice that i need to hear... the one that tells me what the next step is...

 

Today..at the hospital with BH (B stands for Basta**) for his tests and I went to the Meditation Room. It was very quiet, little fountain noise, no one was there but me and it was very peaceful. I really thought a lot about my life right now and tried to decide what I needed to do to take control of this bad situation. I stayed for quite a while, maybe 1 1/2 hours. I left there, went to the gift shop, got a notebook, went and got coffee, sat in a corner and wrote out 15 questions to ask an attorney. Now, I don't feel like jumping up and down, but I feel a little more in control.

 

So maybe go with Sunny's suggestion and see if that helps. I don't think it will feel better until things are settled for you and you can move on a little bit at a time. Best to you.