Author NickFeek Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Nick is actually in a pretty good position to force his wife to accommodate any changes he might desire, provided that he engage the most aggressive Father's Right's lawyer he can find (preferably female) and acts quickly to file, having his wife served with papers requesting temp sole custody of the children, temp spousal and child support and that he and the kids be allowed to remain in the family home temporarily. Nick will then need to quickly give up one of his 2 jobs in order to better care for the children. Here's the deal.. there's a good chance depending on the state he lives in that his infidelity won't matter as it's not a factor in the law there. He needs a pretty female lawyer to paint his wife as a cold, calculating heartless biatch who would stop at nothing to succeed in her legal career, including neglecting and abandoning a young child who has been displaying increasing signs of a developing psychiatric condition ie: anxiety. Nick's lawyer will paint him as the poor, love sick husband who failing to get his wife to heed his call to come to home, gave up his own career aspirations to nurture their children. His lawyer will remind the judge at each and every turn that men all over the state are watching his honor to be sure that equal treatment is given. When all is said and done, Nick will have sole legal and physical custody, he'll tie the family house up till the kids are 18, he'll be awarded generous alimony and child support, if the child proves in need of ongoing psych help Nick might well collect alimony for life. His wife might also be awarded the lion's share of the family's debt to boot. Armed with the right lawyer, Nick's infidelity won't matter at all he'll wipe the floors with his wife. This is the kind of case judges love because they can really stick it to a career woman proving to father's right's activists that their judgments are fair. The thing is though Nick has to get in there and file first as no doubt his wife is well aware of what happens in these kinds of cases as well. When Nick has temp orders in his hands, when he has sole custody of the kids and possession of literally everything they own, he can basically put it to her very directly" 'we go to counseling. we start having regular sex whenever I request it and you come home by 6pm to cook,clean and take care of these kids or you'll be seeing your kids in a social worker's office once a week and living in your parent's basement because you won't be able to afford an apt" Nick can force change but he's got to file and do it quickly. Nick, I'm paying $2,750 per month plus full medical coverage including co-pays to a man who cheated on me and refused intimacy with me. The only reason I still have my house is because I owned it outright prior to the marriage. The judge made his position very clear, regardless of what my ex did or did not do, he was dependent on me fiscally & the judge was not going to allow for the possibility that my dependent would be foisted off onto the taxpayers of this state. File, quit one of your jobs ASAP after you've got temp orders, hit her with both barrels, make it clear she either gives 150% to restoring your marriage or you will blow her away legally and socially. Hitting her hard, in language she understands might well shock her into making some real changes and attempting to salvage the marriage, if shes not willing to do as you request, if she's willing to walk away from her entire life in order to avoid being with you, the marriage wasn't fixable and this would have been the outcome anyway. I am very certain that if I go this route she will leave me and not look back. This is great advice if we decide to split, although it sickens me to think how ugly it would get, and I really don't want to do that to her or the kids. But I still intend to try to work this out, so although I WILL consult with a lawyer, I'm not quite ready to do all this.
Author NickFeek Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Well Nick - just from my aspect, the bolded part above is what makes the relationship worth it, it is a necessary part of the relationship...it is what was missing in my marriage, but the sex was there. Sex was the only intimacy that I got in my marriage, but it didn't make me want to be emotionally close to him because he was terrible at the other stuff. Not saying that you are, but how much of those intangibles have been present in your marriage through the years? Were they there years ago? Could there have been so much of an emphasis on the sex that she feels she doesn't need to be present for the other aspects of the marriage? All those things that you point out you can get from other sources are the things that build the foundation of the relationship...and help to fuel the passion. The intangibles have been there throughout. The last few years have eroded much of it, but even still they are there to a large enough degree for me to want to save this. I'm not saying they shouldn't be there. I'm just saying it's possible to supplement them elsewhere without crossing a line. No, it was not possible for us to emphasize sex because we just weren't doing it enough. It just was not a strong presence in our marriage. We worked on many things & made many things stronger - except the sex.
soserious1 Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 I am very certain that if I go this route she will leave me and not look back. This is great advice if we decide to split, although it sickens me to think how ugly it would get, and I really don't want to do that to her or the kids. But I still intend to try to work this out, so although I WILL consult with a lawyer, I'm not quite ready to do all this. Nick, if the shock of realizing that she could lose her entire life,family,husband isn't enough to jolt her in actively pursuing counseling and leaving no stone unturned in an effort to save her marriage.. I think you have your answer as to the eventual outcome. I do wish you both the best & hope that whatever the outcome you will both end up happier.
Author NickFeek Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Nick, if the shock of realizing that she could lose her entire life,family,husband isn't enough to jolt her in actively pursuing counseling and leaving no stone unturned in an effort to save her marriage.. I think you have your answer as to the eventual outcome. I do wish you both the best & hope that whatever the outcome you will both end up happier. Thank you so much. I completely agree, and that's why for me her YES or NO to counseling is going to be a direct YES or NO to the marriage. We should have been in counseling months ago, as I kept suggesting & pleading for. Fingers crossed she says yes, because for the first time in this whole disaster I'm really feeling A. the severity of what I did; and B. how much I stand to lose.
willowthewisp Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 I appreciate you taking time out. I remember second hand how much work law finals are! Wow, okay, then that's disturbing. You're saying the entire problem of this marriage falls on ME? The problem is me, the problem is my wife. If you really don't believe that then we have nothing further to discuss on that subject. And UNTIL you've endured decades of loneliness and neglect, you also have no basis to say that what she did with the marriage was not worse than what I did. NOT doing something you should be doing is AS BAD AS doing something you shouldn't. There were ABSOLUTELY TIMES IN OUR MARRIAGE when she was making a conscious decision not to engage with me on any satisfying level. Knowing that, if you still say that isn't a bad and IN EFFECT malicious thing, then again we may as well not discuss this subject. Okay good. Then I agree with you about love. And yet I have to point out that I think the common "wisdom" of people separating the importance of both quality and quantity is false & damagingly reductionist. BOTH are important. Having one night every two months of really intimate and personal time that is hugely satisfying is not enough to sustain any relationship. At the same time, having a hundred nights of time together that's just watching TV & never talking is also not enough. It's about quality AND quantity, so on one level it IS about how much you get. Thank you. I really hope we can find the common ground we've been missing, and take it from there. And though I disagree vehement with much of what you're saying, I really appreciate you bringing all of it up. I did Nick, my ex and I were together for nearly 20 years, he was a commitment phobic who would constantly be in push pull, that meant he spent a lot of time away from me and ignoring me. He worked 14-16 hour days 5 days a week, late nights after work 3 times a week for client dinners, drinks with MD etc, conferences away every few weekends. When he was home he spent all his time playing computer games. He did nothing round the house (in 10 years he never cleaned the bathroom once), he did not mow the lawn, look after the car, clean the car, clean his own shoes, nothing, I did everything. If I managed to get him to take a day off work for our anniversary or for my birthday or a weeks holiday, he would come home late every night the week before, because "he had so much to do due to the time off" and then he would bring his work laptop home and do work over the weekend. If we were supposed to be spending the day together because it was my birthday or our anniversary etc, he would bring work home the night before and then get up early to do it, this meant he was exhausted the whole day, and spent the entire day in a daze and generally ignoring me. He even walked 3ft ahead of me in the street when we were out together. I have been where you are Nick, exactly where you are, which is why I posted to you in the first place.
trippi1432 Posted June 7, 2011 Posted June 7, 2011 The intangibles have been there throughout. The last few years have eroded much of it, but even still they are there to a large enough degree for me to want to save this. I'm not saying they shouldn't be there. I'm just saying it's possible to supplement them elsewhere without crossing a line. No, it was not possible for us to emphasize sex because we just weren't doing it enough. It just was not a strong presence in our marriage. We worked on many things & made many things stronger - except the sex. Well, I wasn't really referring to it in the context I think you are referring to the intangibles. What I mean is does she feel that you place more of an emphasis on sex than the intangibles? In essence, did you withhold any of those intangibles from her because there was not enough sex. Intimacy Nick...
Author NickFeek Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 I did Nick, my ex and I were together for nearly 20 years, he was a commitment phobic who would constantly be in push pull, that meant he spent a lot of time away from me and ignoring me. He worked 14-16 hour days 5 days a week, late nights after work 3 times a week for client dinners, drinks with MD etc, conferences away every few weekends. When he was home he spent all his time playing computer games. He did nothing round the house (in 10 years he never cleaned the bathroom once), he did not mow the lawn, look after the car, clean the car, clean his own shoes, nothing, I did everything. If I managed to get him to take a day off work for our anniversary or for my birthday or a weeks holiday, he would come home late every night the week before, because "he had so much to do due to the time off" and then he would bring his work laptop home and do work over the weekend. If we were supposed to be spending the day together because it was my birthday or our anniversary etc, he would bring work home the night before and then get up early to do it, this meant he was exhausted the whole day, and spent the entire day in a daze and generally ignoring me. He even walked 3ft ahead of me in the street when we were out together. I have been where you are Nick, exactly where you are, which is why I posted to you in the first place. I'm so sorry about all that. So you do know how it feels, and even worse. My situation is basically a gender reversal of that. I have a good job and co-run a side business. I get home by 5:30-6pm, and take care of the kids until she gets home, usually 9-10pm. Before my infidelity, we rarely talked, rarely went out together, rarely took a vacation without the kids or did much of anything without the kids, very rarely had sex, and hardly ever even hugged or kissed. I asked her, pleaded with her, reasoned with her so often over the years to be more open & available, to be more willing to engage me & want to spend more time with me. Months & years would go by with her seemingly okay with this setup, while I felt lonely & neglected. During those years, I also lost my patience, yelled, criticized her for working so much, sought refuge in other things (not other people until last September). So I certainly did not always handle things well. My feeling is she always had the choice to engage me, but never quite did. I also believe she loves me dearly, cares for me as a person, and DOES want many of these things. But whatever is/was blocking her from "going there" was always stronger than her willingness to "risk" herself by being more intimate with me (sexually and otherwise). None of this excuses what I did, and I dearly wish I could take it back or somehow make up for it. But I hope it shows how long-lasting, frustrating and painful these years have been.
Author NickFeek Posted June 7, 2011 Author Posted June 7, 2011 Well, I wasn't really referring to it in the context I think you are referring to the intangibles. What I mean is does she feel that you place more of an emphasis on sex than the intangibles? In essence, did you withhold any of those intangibles from her because there was not enough sex. Intimacy Nick... I would say that for the longest time I did not withhold the intangibles, because I wanted at least SOME of what we shared to feel good for both of us. And she certainly didn't withhold them from me either. This doesn't count the times we were suffering what I call "tag team depression" - she was depressed for the better part of the mid 90s, immediately following the 2+ years we were "unable" to have sex. And then I was depressed through the late 90s, after which we moved to NYC for a fresh start & had our kids, etc. Yes, there were times we both withheld the intangibles out of exhaustion, frustration, anger. Nothing unusual for a couple. But I'd say my frustration level from sex was always higher than hers, and that in fact after a while she just stopped trying to do anything other than what we usually did, and that hardly ever. She, especially after her life got taken up with kids & massive workload, has always seemed fairly content with the infrequency & lack of growth in our sex life. She'll SAY she's not, but she never complained or seemed to miss it. Then in the last three years, a whole bunch of the intangibles started to disappear, largely because we stopped sleeping together (in both senses of the word) and because of how hectic our life was. For the 1.5 years prior to my infidelity, I told her repeatedly I wasn't doing well, and asked her to help me. I would get more specific at times, saying how much I wished she was home more, would spend more time with me, would be with me intimately more often, etc. After a while of no change or tangible response from her, I got really resentful and started berating her for working so much, for not listening to me, etc. My message was the same but my delivery was horrible. So I was not perfect. I hung onto the belief (which I still believe) that she loved me & really did want to be with me more in every way, but the evidence of that diminished exponentially. Then I started working closely in our upstart company with the OW. We were friends for a while, and then took on a joint project which required us to spend lots of time together. The friendship became a deeper bond. One drunken night (10 beers, about 7-8 more than I usually have), we had sex. We spent a week regretting it. A week after we "made up", and since the project was ongoing were still spending time together. We started sending graphic emails to each other, said some pretty emotional things, had three more nights of "heavy petting" fully clothed, and then decided to put an end to all that cold turkey. The project lasted another 3-4 weeks. During all that time I could not bear to think of telling my wife - cowardly & bad judgment. I told her some other story about conflict within our company, which was partially true. Eventually her instinct kicked in and she got the truth out of me - again really not handled well on my part. Once she knew, I cut off all contact with the OW, and shifted my work in the company to other things. That's how things were for months. I've had to work with her briefly here & there, but the rest of the company is very understanding of the severity & delicacy of my situation, so we've all worked to keep our contact to a minimum. My wife discovered those racy & emotional emails two nights ago, right after I told her we'd be splitting. Then I had my intense "awakening" the following 24-36 hours, where I started to realize exactly HOW BAD my actions were and HOW MUCH I had hurt her, as well as how much I could potentially hurt the kids. I'm ready now more than ever to compromise - but only if she agrees to couples counseling, something we should have been doing six months ago. Things are really bad right now because of those emails & the almost split-up. But I'm very hopeful she'll finally say yes to counseling, and if she does we will be on a much better path than at any time in the last 5, 10, 15, 20 years. I've already found two potential therapists in-network, and very close to her work, both women with flex hours. I'm doing all I can to make it easy for her to say yes. We'll see.
trippi1432 Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 Nick, this is key to why I have stuck to your thread since the beginning....this is probably the most honest post you have posted so far...honest with yourself...you have a conscience, you love your wife and your family and I think you know the hurt that will come from all of this. My ex and I lost those intangibles that endeared him to me and me to him...it is an emotional closeness that you just don't get from anywhere. The affair...that was just excitement and lust....it was short-lived and not even a representation of your future. Not the future that you know you want..one with your family....the one where you and your wife both fulfill and enrich each other's lives. The agreements are not meant to be from a just a center of self unless you are looking to be by yourself..they are meant to be about a place of love for yourself and the people who touch your life...we interpret what we read based on where our own emotional being is at the time. If I have been crass on your thread, I do apologize, but I spent a month with my husband back and living in a selfish place due to influence...expecting me to do the heavy lifting when we both should have been doing that. Compassion, caring and love Nick...show that to her....point it out if you have to, and tell her you need those things back from her...not from a need that you have..but from a future that you want with her and a family. The counseling...it is important to you..for you both...you aren't asking her to stop her life...you are just asking her to slow it down long enough to enjoy what it offers...a husband and a family. That is not selfish....that is a marriage.
2sunny Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 i'm hopeful for you for tomorrow Nick... has she given any indication of what her intentions are? what has her work schedule been like this week? has she been home any earlier than she has been in the past? has she been participating on any further level within the family? really hoping things shake out for the best and that change will bring positive energy to your home.
tojaz Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 I'm not sure if you're saying I've made the decision to leave or stay, based on what you quoted. Nick thats up to you to say. Throughout this thread and with a lot of advice to the contrary, you have focused on how to "get" your wife to do this and how do I "force" my wife to be that. There are ways to force that upon her, if I wanted to, I could probably even tell you how. Thing I've been trying to throw at you from so many angles is that your hurting because you are missing Intimacy, emotional closeness. None of that is based on what time she comes home or how many times a week you guys have to change the sheets. She could give you all the things you ask and have the emotional connection still not be there, and it wouldn't be. "Forcing" change would just make her shy away more every chance she got and build resentment..... and emotionally you would be right where you are now. To build a real marriage, you have to do your best to understand and respect her sensitivities, after all thats what your asking from her right? Just shes not in a place that she feels comfortable sharing them with you doesn't mean they aren't there or aren't your concern. In fact they should be your concern more then ever. When Nick has temp orders in his hands, when he has sole custody of the kids and possession of literally everything they own, he can basically put it to her very directly" 'we go to counseling. we start having regular sex whenever I request it and you come home by 6pm to cook,clean and take care of these kids or you'll be seeing your kids in a social worker's office once a week and living in your parent's basement because you won't be able to afford an apt" Nick can force change but he's got to file and do it quickly. . or maybe this is the kind of advice your looking for? In which case, go ahead. There are a wide selection of russian brides who need citizenship that will be more then willing to "love" you... for awhile. I dont think thats you Nick, thats not what your hoping for, but thats what you asking for. TOJAZ
knitwit Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 Hi Nick, I only have a few minutes available to post; hopefully I''ll make sense. First- did you know that the reason most women file for divorce is neglect? Not abuse or infidelity, but neglect, not having attention, affection, love. This is probably related to having a workaholic, absent husband- in your case, the career aspect is switched. Many marriages are poisoned by & die from neglect. I am not trying to demean or downplay what your experience in the marriage. Many marriages would not have survived to your point based on what you've gone through. That said, here are my responses to your statements above. You said: "I am not blaming her for my behavior, or excusing what I did. So you're wrong about that entirely. I chose to do a bad thing. I chose to handle our problems in a very bad & destructive way. BUT NONE OF THAT diminishes her neglect. And to say I could simply have PUT A STOP to it is naive. Firstly, I tried so many times over the years, in so many ways, and got nowhere with her. In frustration & misguided thinking, I would lose patience & lash out, none worse than my infidelity. And I own those mistakes. But again, if she had even a little acknowledged with ACTION AND CHANGE what she was NOT doing, and given me some sign she was actually hearing my pleas and attempts to help, things would have been different." I bolded the area that I feel shows that you are blaming her. Let me ask you this: if you remove the infidelity- what now is different that one year ago? One year ago, couldn't have you have moved toward separation? Couldn't you have given her an ultimatum then- counselling or dissolution? You are linking her actions to your actions, and that is wrongward thinking. Here are the facts, as you've presented them: 1. You were unhappy with how she treated you, and you chose to react with anger, short patience, lashing out. 2. Your methods didn't work. You still stayed. 3. You were lonely and vulnerable, and a working relationship grew into a relationship with feelings. Your needs weren't being met, and it felt good to have someone else start to meet them. You didn't chose to stop it, you chose to go with it, and you had an affair. It does not dimish what she did or didn't do to focus on your own behavior. You can't change what she did or didn't do. You can only change what YOU do. In fact, in a way, it doesn't matter what she did or didn't do. You ask, but what about before- what does that matter? You are going to have Reset, whether as a couple trying to recover, or as a man going through seperation and possibly divorce. It does not help to focus on her. Have you seen Team America? In the opening scene the American guys succeed in their mission to kill the terrorists in Paris. They celebrate! Job well done! The only problem is, in killing the terrorists they have leveled the city. You were trying to find solutions to your problems and you have leveled your marriage. It does NOT dimish her neglect over the years to say that. It simply says that YOUR actions, in trying to feel better and problem solve, resulted in major destruction. You are willing to say that your actions have succeed in forcing a rebuild- which is true. You've killed the "terrorists". But at what expense? I think it is extremely important for you to let go of this idea that her actions were just as bad as yours. She might have been a bear to live with, but you could trust that she would stay within the marriage. You have given her a very serious wound, & if you have any hope of making it, you need to get humble, acknowledge what you've done, and work your ass off to help her heal. Get rid of the "buts", or "if you did X, Y never would have happened!" That line of thinking is total crap- affairs happen in good and bad marriages, they happen because a partner lets someone meet their needs, & its off to the races. Get rid of all your justifications. Acknowledge that you can be a better man & father, & that you want that opportunity with her, to rebuild a new & much better marriage. (BTW I really believe that you want these things, don't feed her lines if it is not what you want.) Saying these things does NOT mean that she has faults, that you want more than what you had, that she has a LOT of room for improvement. It does not diminish HER role in the bad marriage before the infidelity. Saying these things DOES mean that you are taking responsibility for what you've done, you are acknowleding that you hurt her gravely, that you are willing to help her heal, and you are telling her what part YOU are willing to do to improve and move on. Until you can do and say and MEAN these things, you are not safe for her or your family. You have been willing to "win" (have angry outbursts, affairs, and make ultimatiums) at the expense of your wife and kids. This is the fog and entitlement discussed earlier. Stop making demands of her for now. Help her heal. Once she has healed a little and thinks that just maybe she can trust you (for example, she said before that she is not willing to do anything until she sees that you've stopped wavering), then you can begin to really work on building a better marriage. She is going to be a total mess for quite some time. None of this means that it is OK for her to neglect you. It just means that you are willing to be there, to help her deal, and that you are willing to try to rebuild. One last thing- I do not agree with Cult of Marriage Counselors. I believe they can do more harm than good. There aren't many success stories, and the four MCs I know all are either relationship-deficent or divorced. There is tons of info online, and really, I would recommend that you dedicate yourself to a good 6 months of just being a better person & husband, & meeting as many of her emotional needs as she'll let you. Again, doing this doesn't mean that she hasn't wronged you as well. It doesn't mean anything other than you are dedicated to some self-growth. Try to have some empathy for her. As unloved as you feel, she feels (if not more!). You are not the one having to think about your spouse riding another person, wondering if they are having wild monkey sex on the desk at work, or wondering if their spouse thinks about the wild monkey sex everytime they work on that desk, etc. As rejected as you felt, she feels (and probably even moreso, because she knows that at least for a while, you preferred someone else enough to willingly threaten your marriage.) You are going to have to improve yourself anyway- even if you end up divorced, very few women who are worth having are going to put up with angry outbursts and selfish demands from a man. We all have to grow up if we want to be in good relationships, you are not alone, its why relationships are such hard work! You might as well start now! One last thing- today is a day just like any other. It seems important, that important decisions are being made- and they are. But you know the saying, it's not over until the fat lady sings. You are still married until you are divorced, and you're not getting divorced today. (And people have been known to get re-married, if you're really meant to get together and both make the decision to really make it work.) Regardless of what decisions are made today, you can work your a$$ off to show your wife that you are a new, improved man, husband, and father. You can do YOUR part, with YOUR actions, to show that you really are awesome. And if, in six months or 12 months or however long you want to try, if she is still not the wife you need, you can move forward. I really do believe your marriage and family are savable, Nick. You obviously love your wife and kids and family very much. You made a human mistake that unfortunately has monstrous effects. We aren't getting to learn much about your wife, but she hasn't kicked you out and seems to be willing to give it a try. I wish you the best of luck! So much for my brief posting, eh? Off to work....
Author NickFeek Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 Nick, this is key to why I have stuck to your thread since the beginning....this is probably the most honest post you have posted so far...honest with yourself...you have a conscience, you love your wife and your family and I think you know the hurt that will come from all of this. My ex and I lost those intangibles that endeared him to me and me to him...it is an emotional closeness that you just don't get from anywhere. The affair...that was just excitement and lust....it was short-lived and not even a representation of your future. Not the future that you know you want..one with your family....the one where you and your wife both fulfill and enrich each other's lives. The agreements are not meant to be from a just a center of self unless you are looking to be by yourself..they are meant to be about a place of love for yourself and the people who touch your life...we interpret what we read based on where our own emotional being is at the time. If I have been crass on your thread, I do apologize, but I spent a month with my husband back and living in a selfish place due to influence...expecting me to do the heavy lifting when we both should have been doing that. Compassion, caring and love Nick...show that to her....point it out if you have to, and tell her you need those things back from her...not from a need that you have..but from a future that you want with her and a family. The counseling...it is important to you..for you both...you aren't asking her to stop her life...you are just asking her to slow it down long enough to enjoy what it offers...a husband and a family. That is not selfish....that is a marriage. Sorry about what you went through with your husband. Thank you so much for this post. It's one of the most affirming things I've heard. I bolded that statement above because I agree with it, but especially because I'm understanding for maybe the first time that for many months I've been withholding a part of myself, clinging to what I thought was real from the affair. And something about REALLY understanding the prospect of leaving shocked me out of that. More soon.
knitwit Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 "Saying these things does NOT mean that she has faults, that you want more than what you had, that she has a LOT of room for improvement. It does not diminish HER role in the bad marriage before the infidelity" Doh!! Lets try again: "Saying these things does NOT mean that she has doesn't have faults, or that you shouldn't want more than what you had, or that her actions don't have a LOT of room for improvement. It does not diminish HER role in the bad marriage before the infidelity." There, fixed.
Author NickFeek Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 i'm hopeful for you for tomorrow Nick... has she given any indication of what her intentions are? what has her work schedule been like this week? has she been home any earlier than she has been in the past? has she been participating on any further level within the family? really hoping things shake out for the best and that change will bring positive energy to your home. This is what has transpired in the last day or so. Yesterday morning very early, she was so upset about the emails she read that she woke me up to help her calm down from a severe panic attack. We then talked & things seemed better. I went back to sleep. When I woke up at regular time, she was extremely angry & shook me, repeating words I had written to the OW. When I got to work she called me & told me she was just sickened & angry & devastated by those emails. I completely 100% understand this, and I'm feeling so much more strongly how much I hurt her, and how far I went down the rabbit hole with the OW. My company just scored a big win business-wise, one that will really help put us on the map. Our president sent out an email announcement. When my wife called, she threatened to email the whole group and say, "Congratulations, (company name), and you can be proud that Nick and "OW" f**ked their way to success." She didn't do it, but for a while I was worried that she would. Again, I understand why she'd be so angry & hurt. So the day went on & I was really upset & scared. I spoke with some friends & family, and that helped. My wife called near the end of my work day, and she was in a much better place. Near the end of HER work day, she called my parents and laid into them with everything she had. She was hoping for some catharsis or some other acknowledgement from them of how badly I've acted, but got none of that. She has tons of animosity towards them, and talking to them did not help her. To answer your direct question, she got home after 8 on Monday, and after 10 last night, so no change there. But she told me she talked to her boss about her hours, and he said he has no problem at all with her leaving at 6-6:30 a handful of nights a week. We still need to see the follow-through, but that was a good step. After the kids went to bed, she insisted I read out loud to her several of the more upsetting email exchanges (again, these were back in Sept-Oct). I think it helped her (???). I then reiterated how important I think it is for us to be in counseling, and how carefully I chose the counselor. She more or less said while she's sure she was not ready to do this six months ago or anytime in between, she at least feels like we are now BOTH ready. BUT she also said she just does not trust me, and does not believe that I will feel the same way by the weekend. I said okay, I can understand that, but I will not change my mind. I'm more determined now than ever that we use counseling for all it's worth, and that this is really the only practical way we can work through everything. We agreed that she'd have until the weekend & no later to decide. It was a tough concession for me to make, but since we're taking the bank thing off the table I'm willing to compromise on that. BUT I MADE IT CLEAR that, after months & months of me pleading for this step, if she can't finally say yes by Sunday, then her "no" is a NO to us too. I DON'T WANT THAT, but I can't see any constructive work happening at home without this step.
Author NickFeek Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 Nick thats up to you to say. Throughout this thread and with a lot of advice to the contrary, you have focused on how to "get" your wife to do this and how do I "force" my wife to be that. There are ways to force that upon her, if I wanted to, I could probably even tell you how. Thing I've been trying to throw at you from so many angles is that your hurting because you are missing Intimacy, emotional closeness. None of that is based on what time she comes home or how many times a week you guys have to change the sheets. She could give you all the things you ask and have the emotional connection still not be there, and it wouldn't be. "Forcing" change would just make her shy away more every chance she got and build resentment..... and emotionally you would be right where you are now. To build a real marriage, you have to do your best to understand and respect her sensitivities, after all thats what your asking from her right? Just shes not in a place that she feels comfortable sharing them with you doesn't mean they aren't there or aren't your concern. In fact they should be your concern more then ever. or maybe this is the kind of advice your looking for? In which case, go ahead. There are a wide selection of russian brides who need citizenship that will be more then willing to "love" you... for awhile. I dont think thats you Nick, thats not what your hoping for, but thats what you asking for. TOJAZ No, I'm neither hoping nor asking for that. I really want our marriage to work, and the things I'm asking my wife to agree to are to my mind necessary for that to happen. I would hope & prefer that these changes happen organically, but as I hope you've all gathered from what I've written here about our history, NO PRODDING from me leads to a giant swath of complacency from her. And then years go by etc. etc. It is possible to come at this from both ends - inside & outside - to work on the feeling & organic growth of all this while also instituting tangible changes in behavior.
knitwit Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) This is what has transpired in the last day or so. Yesterday morning very early, she was so upset about the emails she read that she woke me up to help her calm down from a severe panic attack. We then talked & things seemed better. I went back to sleep. When I woke up at regular time, she was extremely angry & shook me, repeating words I had written to the OW. When I got to work she called me & told me she was just sickened & angry & devastated by those emails. I completely 100% understand this, and I'm feeling so much more strongly how much I hurt her, and how far I went down the rabbit hole with the OW. My company just scored a big win business-wise, one that will really help put us on the map. Our president sent out an email announcement. When my wife called, she threatened to email the whole group and say, "Congratulations, (company name), and you can be proud that Nick and "OW" f**ked their way to success." She didn't do it, but for a while I was worried that she would. Again, I understand why she'd be so angry & hurt. So the day went on & I was really upset & scared. I spoke with some friends & family, and that helped. My wife called near the end of my work day, and she was in a much better place. Near the end of HER work day, she called my parents and laid into them with everything she had. She was hoping for some catharsis or some other acknowledgement from them of how badly I've acted, but got none of that. She has tons of animosity towards them, and talking to them did not help her. To answer your direct question, she got home after 8 on Monday, and after 10 last night, so no change there. But she told me she talked to her boss about her hours, and he said he has no problem at all with her leaving at 6-6:30 a handful of nights a week. We still need to see the follow-through, but that was a good step. After the kids went to bed, she insisted I read out loud to her several of the more upsetting email exchanges (again, these were back in Sept-Oct). I think it helped her (???). I then reiterated how important I think it is for us to be in counseling, and how carefully I chose the counselor. She more or less said while she's sure she was not ready to do this six months ago or anytime in between, she at least feels like we are now BOTH ready. BUT she also said she just does not trust me, and does not believe that I will feel the same way by the weekend. I said okay, I can understand that, but I will not change my mind. I'm more determined now than ever that we use counseling for all it's worth, and that this is really the only practical way we can work through everything. We agreed that she'd have until the weekend & no later to decide. It was a tough concession for me to make, but since we're taking the bank thing off the table I'm willing to compromise on that. BUT I MADE IT CLEAR that, after months & months of me pleading for this step, if she can't finally say yes by Sunday, then her "no" is a NO to us too. I DON'T WANT THAT, but I can't see any constructive work happening at home without this step. I am going to work late today and just wanted to say that I am VERY happy to see you supporting her, not making judgements about her, but being there for her. You are helping her to heal, even if it seems insane right now. I have to ask you: is counseling REALLY the deal-breaker, here? Are you truly ready to leave if she doesn't agree to it? You have issued her an ultimatum. If you really can't see yourself staying without her agreeing and doing counseling, then you are being honest with her, and it is the right thing. However, I am not sure that you are truly there yet. You're doing an awful lot of work and thinking for someone who is one word (No) away from walking. I think you are looking for a commitment from her, & you see her agreement to counseling as the demonstration of that commitment. You are doing a great job supporting her, my only recommendation would be to take off that ultimatum. Let her know that you really want it, you really want to work through this and that this is the BEST way you know to do so. But you are still trying to force her to do what you want. Does she have any other ideas beside counceling? Books? Marriage get-away weekends? Is there any other option that the two of you can try to brainstorm and both be comfortable with? This would be acting with her to rebuild. The ultimatum is a "my way or the highway" statement. It is an attempt to win, to get your way, at her expense. It is a manipulative tactic & not a team-building one. I'll bet you can find a better way. I really do have to go to work now, and I don't access LS with my work laptop. Best of luck to you! I think you are doing great! Edited June 8, 2011 by knitwit
trippi1432 Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) Sorry about what you went through with your husband. Thank you so much for this post. It's one of the most affirming things I've heard. I bolded that statement above because I agree with it, but especially because I'm understanding for maybe the first time that for many months I've been withholding a part of myself, clinging to what I thought was real from the affair. And something about REALLY understanding the prospect of leaving shocked me out of that. More soon. Yes Nick....why I stated many pages of posts ago that you still sounded like you were in the fog....but you are waking up now. In that though...reconsider some things....nothing good comes from forcing. Edited June 8, 2011 by trippi1432
2sunny Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 it looks like your W is willing to look at some of her emotions. that is progress! she's digging for information and throwing it back at you... progress - i'm sure NOT comfortable for you - but hey, you did DO that - and it really should have been discussed this way last fall. own it. it's yours. share YOUR emotions and perspective with her... that's what you will be doing in counseling anyway. then MOVE FORWARD with what she's showing you. she IS looking into adjusting her work schedule she IS talking out her anger with you and others (your family etc) she IS trying to find a place to put her anger these ARE change - albeit some are very uncomfortable - the point is - she is attempting some change. now, if YOU can encourage her to talk that anger out with YOU (since you are her partner and YOU created a situation to which she has every right to feel angry at you) then you have a chance at more intimacy with her. i can wish for her to LEARN a healthy way to get through that anger - but that's just my wish for both of you... i wish she would DO that. but - this will take a huge amount of your energy being VULNERABLE and honest with her. THAT you can change and participate in. looks like she may have opened the door to peek inside and see what emotions she has ignored - that is a start! what she decides to DO with those emotions is up to her. if you can both throw it out on the table and take action on changing things - it can get better. but just like a house to be remodeled - it has to get worse before it gets better... this is part of the process. you don't get the beautiful house without the demolition and destruction phase first. processing through what hasn't worked for your M is part of making it better. sifting through the anger on BOTH sides - to see IF you two can let go of the anger and get to the other side without the anger - just acceptance for a NEW kind of M - would be change and nice for both of you. she had until today to decide - seems enough time - now it's moved to Sunday. seems your pattern in your M - delay, delay, delay. delays do not bring change - just complacency. she knows... most women know - either i want to DO this or i don't. now you sit and wait again without getting input from a counselor, which you say you need. at least she is showing you what her anger looks like - YOU could get counseling about what to do to deal with HER anger - the anger you participated in. that might help you. her phone calls to you.... hmmmm, so she IS reaching out more now from work - veeery interesting indeed.... so she DOES have time to call and correspond when it's her priority. seems change IS happening here Nick. embrace it. participate the best you can... and stay calm within the storm.
Author NickFeek Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 I am going to work late today and just wanted to say that I am VERY happy to see you supporting her, not making judgements about her, but being there for her. You are helping her to heal, even if it seems insane right now. I have to ask you: is counseling REALLY the deal-breaker, here? Are you truly ready to leave if she doesn't agree to it? You have issued her an ultimatum. If you really can't see yourself staying without her agreeing and doing counseling, then you are being honest with her, and it is the right thing. However, I am not sure that you are truly there yet. You're doing an awful lot of work and thinking for someone who is one word (No) away from walking. I think you are looking for a commitment from her, & you see her agreement to counseling as the demonstration of that commitment. You are doing a great job supporting her, my only recommendation would be to take off that ultimatum. Let her know that you really want it, you really want to work through this and that this is the BEST way you know to do so. But you are still trying to force her to do what you want. Does she have any other ideas beside counceling? Books? Marriage get-away weekends? Is there any other option that the two of you can try to brainstorm and both be comfortable with? This would be acting with her to rebuild. The ultimatum is a "my way or the highway" statement. It is an attempt to win, to get your way, at her expense. It is a manipulative tactic & not a team-building one. I'll bet you can find a better way. I really do have to go to work now, and I don't access LS with my work laptop. Best of luck to you! I think you are doing great! Thanks for taking so much time to write your posts. While I disagree with one or two points here and there, overall I am in agreement with what you're saying. I feel I have broken through a wall this past weekend, and will continue to do what I can to support her. At the same time, I'm not blindly or randomly insisting on counseling. I know from experience, from our history of cycling through crises with no actual resolution of our core issues, that things like books & get-away weekends don't work. We have tried them. We have tried just talking to each other. None of it has worked. None of it has ever brought about lasting change. This is not simply me saying, "Do it my way because I want MY way." I'm choosing to advocate & push for counseling because 20 years of empirical evidence shows that not one single other thing has worked. Will I walk the minute she says NO (if she says that)? Probably not. I've stayed this long, and wouldn't want to throw away all the effort & the potential for success. But if things are going to be as they always have been - which is deal with the immediate problem until we've achieved stasis (if not contentment) and the ability to function normally again, then STOP RIGHT THERE and not go any deeper to work on the underlying causes - then at what point do I have the "right" to say something like: "Look, I know your intentions are good and your heart is in this; but no amount of work we do at home has brought about the repairs & changes we desperately need, so unless you're willing to try things a different way - i.e. counseling - I see no reason to believe the future will be any different than it is now?" As gun-shy as everyone is about setting a deadline or creating an ultimatum, there HAS to be a cutoff point, or all of this will go on indefinitely yet again. FURTHERMORE, I can't see how us going to counseling would be "at her expense". She would get at least as much benefit from a sympathetic and objective ear as I would, and possibly more. She may find the real, contextual validation she's been looking for. It could & should be extremely beneficial for both of us. You yourself may be against therapy, but you also list it as one of many possible ways to tackle things (internet, books, get-aways). That to me means you do believe that it is an equally valid choice, and since choices like this should always be based on personal preference & circumstantial evidence, that makes it the right choice for us.
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Author NickFeek Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 it looks like your W is willing to look at some of her emotions. that is progress! she's digging for information and throwing it back at you... progress - i'm sure NOT comfortable for you - but hey, you did DO that - and it really should have been discussed this way last fall. own it. it's yours. share YOUR emotions and perspective with her... that's what you will be doing in counseling anyway. then MOVE FORWARD with what she's showing you. she IS looking into adjusting her work schedule she IS talking out her anger with you and others (your family etc) she IS trying to find a place to put her anger these ARE change - albeit some are very uncomfortable - the point is - she is attempting some change. now, if YOU can encourage her to talk that anger out with YOU (since you are her partner and YOU created a situation to which she has every right to feel angry at you) then you have a chance at more intimacy with her. i can wish for her to LEARN a healthy way to get through that anger - but that's just my wish for both of you... i wish she would DO that. but - this will take a huge amount of your energy being VULNERABLE and honest with her. THAT you can change and participate in. looks like she may have opened the door to peek inside and see what emotions she has ignored - that is a start! what she decides to DO with those emotions is up to her. if you can both throw it out on the table and take action on changing things - it can get better. but just like a house to be remodeled - it has to get worse before it gets better... this is part of the process. you don't get the beautiful house without the demolition and destruction phase first. processing through what hasn't worked for your M is part of making it better. sifting through the anger on BOTH sides - to see IF you two can let go of the anger and get to the other side without the anger - just acceptance for a NEW kind of M - would be change and nice for both of you. she had until today to decide - seems enough time - now it's moved to Sunday. seems your pattern in your M - delay, delay, delay. delays do not bring change - just complacency. she knows... most women know - either i want to DO this or i don't. now you sit and wait again without getting input from a counselor, which you say you need. at least she is showing you what her anger looks like - YOU could get counseling about what to do to deal with HER anger - the anger you participated in. that might help you. her phone calls to you.... hmmmm, so she IS reaching out more now from work - veeery interesting indeed.... so she DOES have time to call and correspond when it's her priority. seems change IS happening here Nick. embrace it. participate the best you can... and stay calm within the storm. Calmness is definitely not easy to maintain, but I have enough of it each day that I'm not spiraling out of control. I have found various ways to recenter, and that has helped. I agree there's change, and I'm more encouraged now. I also agree that these small steps forward will need to lead to more & more. And I agree that I need to remain open & honest & vulnerable throughout. Yes, she seems to be compelled to call or email me (or wake me at 4:30am) when she is feeling angry/scared/hurt/desperate enough to need that. I just wish it didn't take such an incredible crisis for her to reach out, and I REALLY WISH that the reaching out doesn't stop again if/when we get through this. The further delay does concern me. She is extremely reluctant to enter into counseling, and I really can't pinpoint why. I KNOW she's also finding it hard to trust me, and that's why I'm okay with the delay. I just wish she'd at least give this a shot. I think she'll be pleasantly surprised by how much she benefits from it. I'm okay with her anger, and I'm processing it fairly well. Good times & bad times, but overall I can handle it and respond to it appropriately. More importantly, I'm FEELING it as deeply as I should have been feeling it all these months. That's right: processing, letting go, working for a NEW kind of marriage. That's what I hope for.
2sunny Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 Yes, she seems to be compelled to call or email me (or wake me at 4:30am) when she is feeling angry/scared/hurt/desperate enough to need that. I just wish it didn't take such an incredible crisis for her to reach out, and I REALLY WISH that the reaching out doesn't stop again if/when we get through this. what EXACTLY is she saying in these situations - and what is your response to her? this is where she is actually TRYING to be honest - by throwing her raw emotions out there... i'm interested in what her raw emotions look like when she's participating in this manner.
Author NickFeek Posted June 8, 2011 Author Posted June 8, 2011 what EXACTLY is she saying in these situations - and what is your response to her? this is where she is actually TRYING to be honest - by throwing her raw emotions out there... i'm interested in what her raw emotions look like when she's participating in this manner. She says so much. She is deeply hurt and scared. She says she doesn't know if she can ever trust me again. She asks why I think she ever COULD trust me after all this. She says she's not sure if she wants to stay. That after all I've done and said, the facts show her she would be better off without me. She says I'm selfish and entitled. She is amazed at the gall I have to list things I need after what I did. She says I can never know how horrible it feels for her. She says sometimes she wants to throw me down the stairs she's so angry. She is often not sure she can be near me. She asks me what I was thinking while involved with the OW. She says I was sorry for about a month and then I've been beating her up since then. She says she feels nothing for my parents and thinks they're not even real people - that they dwell on the surface where it's safe and only hear what they want to. She asks me what benefit I could possibly see from us going to counseling. She asks me what i think my life will be like if i leave. She tells me things her family says. I'm sure there are 50 other things I'm forgetting. I mostly listen. I agree with her everywhere I can, and correct/dispute when I feel it's important to. I apologize when appropriate. I've been telling her a lot lately how I didn't realize until Sunday how horrible all this is (paraphrased - I'm more elaborate than that). I tell her that while I hope she does want to try and can eventually trust me again, that I completely understand why she wouldn't and couldn't. I tell her I will do all the work we need to to get us right. I say 40 other things as well. It's a healthy if painful exchange. I want more of these.
2sunny Posted June 8, 2011 Posted June 8, 2011 it's good that she's getting SOME things out in the open - and these are the things she COULD be DOING some things about. holding them inside and stuffing it all down would make anyone angry - but she learned that behavior pattern- and i'd bet money she learned how to do THAT well as a child. hearing her have a voice is a healthy response/reaction to her pain and anger... now we are getting somewhere... i hope she will keep it up. write down all the things she says in those honest/emotional outbursts! THIS will be the list you need to take to the counselors office with you. hand the list over and state simply "you may never get my wife's truth (at best only small fractions of it) so here's a list of what she does finally tell me after 25 years - here's the list from which we can start." that will be a good place to get straight to the honesty part. she DOES have time to call you from work when SHE wants to - how does that feel?
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