25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[tojaz]

and how is she supposed to learn - when she won't do anything different. won't go to counseling. and refuses to be home with them more than she is now, but keeps making empty promises?

 

how long does a person believe someone's word - when all actions show they don't mean what they have said?

 

she understand full well he feels unloved and lonely - and makes all promises to do better but never changes a thing.

 

how does that help the M?

 

 

keep in mind Nick has done years of counseling, his wife won't go.

 

How exactly do you know what she does and doesn't intend, feel, think or understand? I haven't seen one post from Mrs.NickFeek. The only person that knows if promises are intentionally empty, if lies are lies, or how hard she is trying...... Is her.

 

TOJAZ

[willowthewisp]

2 Sunny - Nick himself has stated that his wife has gone to counseling in the past, at that time for a different issue, so I find it very judgmental on anyone's part to continue to bash his wife saying that she is being self-serving or selfish by not agreeing to jump in with both feet to work on her aversions to sex after finding out about her husband's infidelity.

 

Now I could pull out the judge card and say heck, if you are going to leave a woman who may have a medical condition that limits her performance in bed, then she is just as justified to leave you over a low libido or poor sexual performance...NO! Sex is only one element of a marriage...what is apparent here is that Nick places a higher value of it than his wife does....and (sorry Nick), there appears to be a little bit of "buyer's remorse" going on since Nick has now experienced a new sex partner.

 

Understandably, Nick has a conscience....which is a different spin than many of us see with those who cheat. However, 2 Sunny, I do see your side having divorced a man who threw himself into his career and can sympathize with how lonely that made you...to have him also cheat on you while not being a husband to you, I can understand how that slightly skews the agreement on the word on judging.

 

Actually, who is say that the wife's perspective here since the infidelity is that it's not worth going to counseling to fix...even you divorced a man for his infidelity...as did I. Some marriages can survive it with a lot of compassion and patience....many others can't.

 

Exactly trippi. Speaking generally here, you know this really gets my back up, the people who are leaving, are leaving because of their "reasons" whether they be lack of sex, my spouse got fat, my spouse is ill, my spouse won't have a sceond child, my spouse wants too much time with me or in my case, my partner has expressed she would prefer me not to get another motorbike and that means she is controlling.

 

My point is this, the left still goes on loving the leaver, despite what they have done, despite the fact they cheated or walked without even trying first because of their "reasons". It flabergasts me that these leavers can honestly convince themselves of their justifications for leaving when they have done so much worse, something so much more underserving of their spouses love and devotion.

 

At the end of the day it comes down to one thing. A persons sense of entitlement and their inability to love. These people don't know how to love, you don't love someone because they give you sex or they do what you want, it goes deeper than surface cost/benefit anyalysis. For people out there who think marriage is about getting what you want to be hapy 100% of the time without having to communicate and compromise in a partnership...DON'T GET MARRIED, you aren't up to it.

 

The only relevence here, is the blame that is being put onto Nicks wife without any consideration for her feelings or her perspective in all this. The women clearly loves him, she has stayed despite his affair and lets face it, she earns the main income in this family, she's finiacially indepentdent so she isn't staying for any other reason other than love. Perhaps she is trying, just not in the way Nick wants, but that is not a reason to walk away from 25 years.

[knitwit]

At the end of the day it comes down to one thing. A persons sense of entitlement and their inability to love. These people don't know how to love, you don't love someone because they give you sex or they do what you want, it goes deeper than surface cost/benefit anyalysis. For people out there who think marriage is about getting what you want to be hapy 100% of the time without having to communicate and compromise in a partnership...DON'T GET MARRIED, you aren't up to it.

 

The only relevence here, is the blame that is being put onto Nicks wife without any consideration for her feelings or her perspective in all this. The women clearly loves him, she has stayed despite his affair and lets face it, she earns the main income in this family, she's finiacially indepentdent so she isn't staying for any other reason other than love. Perhaps she is trying, just not in the way Nick wants, but that is not a reason to walk away from 25 years.

 

 

Wow- I am more of a lurker and drive-by LS poster, but had to join in on this one. I think Willow and Tojaz's last posts really nail the issues.

 

Nick- I can see you are struggling & you seem confused & scared. Have you tried looking into Marriage Builders or Divorce Busters? You can send an email to Dr Harley at MB and they will help you on their radio program.

 

I am sorry, Nick, but you look like you still have a "wayward mentality" of entitlement. You cheated on your wife and not even a year later, you are leaving because you still not getting your way.

 

If you take a look at the posts of couples who have survived infidelity, you will see that the wayward spouse had to convince the BS that the BS was the only one for them, that the WS made a huge mistake that would never happen again, etc. The way that happens is that the WS deals with the fall-out & sticks through the hard part, & that hard part seems to really kick in at the 6-month part. This is right when you started posting.

 

I haven't read your entire thread, so I may be way off-base. However, in the sections I have read, I haven't read anything on what you may be doing to convince your wife that you love only her, trying to find out what her needs are and addressing them, etc. This is the hard work of reconciliation.

 

As a married career woman with one child, I can tell you that should my husband cheat & I decide to try to work through it, I would not let up on my career. I would consider it necessary so I could support myself & my son in case my h. continued to solve his problems by going outside the marriage, either via infidelity or just up and going. I would be trying to protect myself in the event that he behaved exactly like you are doing.

 

If you think you might want to save your marriage, I think you need to re-exam what you are doing immediately. You are very focused on your needs, but unless you want to be divorced, you need to put the spotlight on her needs & making sure they are met.

 

I do not blame your wife for crying her eyes out. She has been with you since she was a teen and you are the father of her children. She already took a big poop sandwhich from you when you cheated, and quite soon thereafter you are bailing on her again. She probably feels completely rejected.

 

Whatever love she has for you is probably draining out at a quick rate right now. Her support system is probably trying to convince her that you are selfish, you cheat and can't be trusted to have her back. They are probaby lining up to help her get away from you, telling her that is still young and is accomplished & successful, & certainly will have the opportunity for love again.

 

If you are at the point that you really are ready to leave if you don't have your demands met- if you are truly done- then the separation is the way to go en route to divorce.

 

However, I am posting because you seem "foggy" to me. I think you are still confused & you're not sure what you want.

 

It looks to me that you are asking to separate as a way to manipulate your wife into giving you what you want. You are hoping to wake her up & shock into realizing how serious you are. I think this might work if you hadn't cheated- instead, you have already abused her via infidelity & I think she is much more likely to see this as more abuse, or as just another way for you to leave.

 

Furthermore, your wife has already told you that she will not take the blame for the break-up. She is going to make sure that it is known that YOU are the one walking away, not her. These are not the words of a woman who is going to roll over for you. These are the words of a woman who is very close to being done.

 

So again, if you think you might have a wish to keep your marriage, please re-think what you are doing. I don't think you are a bad guy, but I don't know if you are seeing what you are doing. Your wife may not be giving you everything you want, but she isn't the one cheating and leaving, either. You are heading straight for divorce right now and I think you have a very limited window to change that route.

[worldgonewrong]

What may seem like a small and insignificant gesture for you may be a very hard thing for her.

 

An ace reply by Topaz, and this nugget above is particularly choice because so often we (the royal we in our respective situations) can lose sight of that understanding. Spot on.

Edited June 6, 2011 by worldgonewrong

[soserious1]

Your milage of course may vary but it's always been my experience that people only institute changes in their lives if they feel they are going to benefit from doing so.

 

Nick shared with us that during sex, his wife made the comment "yeah, it's good for YOU" she also commented that if they divorce Nick's life will 'get a lot easier" I suspect that Nick's wife feels that if she bows to Nick's demands for change that she won't be getting anything that benefits her.

[2sunny]

trippi1432;3440231]2 Sunny - Nick himself has stated that his wife has gone to counseling in the past, at that time for a different issue, so I find it very judgmental on anyone's part to continue to bash his wife saying that she is being self-serving or selfish by not agreeing to jump in with both feet to work on her aversions to sex after finding out about her husband's infidelity.

 

she may have gone to counseling in the past - but she has stated she won't go now. that's what concerns Nick.

 

Now I could pull out the judge card and say heck, if you are going to leave a woman who may have a medical condition that limits her performance in bed, then she is just as justified to leave you over a low libido or poor sexual performance...NO! Sex is only one element of a marriage...what is apparent here is that Nick places a higher value of it than his wife does....and (sorry Nick), there appears to be a little bit of "buyer's remorse" going on since Nick has now experienced a new sex partner.

 

i think the sex part of it isn't the main portion that Nick has discussed here. read the thread. what he's asked MAINLY for is a companion. for that - she has refused to budge. he has lived without the sex part of the M for most of the years, so that point is moot. being lonely and not having a partner in intimacy is the bigger problem.

 

 

Understandably, Nick has a conscience....which is a different spin than many of us see with those who cheat. However, 2 Sunny, I do see your side having divorced a man who threw himself into his career and can sympathize with how lonely that made you...to have him also cheat on you while not being a husband to you, I can understand how that slightly skews the agreement on the word on judging.

 

 

YOU are WAY off base - as far as my M - so please don't PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. you couldn't be more wrong about my M. YOU ARE MAKING A TON OF ASSUMPTIONS THAT AREN"T TRUE! i don't feel skewed - i'm simply working from all the info Nick has presented while trying to find resolution.

 

 

Actually, who is say that the wife's perspective here since the infidelity is that it's not worth going to counseling to fix...even you divorced a man for his infidelity...as did I. Some marriages can survive it with a lot of compassion and patience....many others can't.

 

 

we don't know his W perspective - wish we did! also wish she would get counseling - but she said she won't. change would be good!

[soserious1]

she may have gone to counseling in the past - but she has stated she won't go now. that's what concerns Nick.

 

 

 

i think the sex part of it isn't the main portion that Nick has discussed here. read the thread. what he's asked MAINLY for is a companion. for that - she has refused to budge. he has lived without the sex part of the M for most of the years, so that point is moot. being lonely and not having a partner in intimacy is the bigger problem.

 

 

[/b]

 

 

YOU are WAY off base - as far as my M - so please don't PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. you couldn't be more wrong about my M. YOU ARE MAKING A TON OF ASSUMPTIONS THAT AREN"T TRUE! i don't feel skewed - i'm simply working from all the info Nick has presented while trying to find resolution.

 

 

 

 

 

we don't know his W perspective - wish we did! also wish she would get counseling - but she said she won't. change would be good!

 

It's entirely possible that Nick's wife is crying because nobody gets married hoping that divorce will be the outcome, you can cry and be very sad about a negative outcome while also knowing that outcome is what needs to happen.

 

As for counseling, if a person has decided that a relationship cannot be salvaged or that the benefit they would receive isn't worth the effort it will require, why bother?

 

Nick's wife may know perfectly well that change is needed, she might be sad about a divorce but might also well know that it's the only outcome in which both of them have a shot at getting their needs met in future.

[NickFeek]

I'm not sure I have the finger power to respond to everything that was posted! I appreciate all of you jumping in, though I'm a little concerned about the mad rush "after the fact". Those of you who stated I'm still conflicted & confused are dead on right, as you'll see more of when I explain what's been going on the last 24+ hours, so as late as these posts are it's good to hear such strong perspectives from the other side.

 

I've excerpted ALL of the recent posts, and will try to distill those & respond to the points that struck me. But first, an update.

 

Yesterday my wife's sister came up to offer support. It was a real big help for all of us, and actually gave my wife & me more time to talk than usual. ALL of yesterday through to this morning I've been going back & forth about my decision. In that time, my wife & I have managed to turn our discussions into laser focused exchanges, and have said a lot of things that probably should have been said six months ago. I have been thinking & feeling a WHOLE LOT about what me leaving would do to my kids, and I'm just not sure I have the stomach for it. I love them too much to devastate them. My parents came up today, and I told them that I'm really seeing this now as the lesser of two evils - BUT WITH SERIOUS QUALIFICATIONS IF I DO STAY. So I proposed to her this morning that, since whatever we were doing in the last six months was not really about trying to move on & fix things (from either side), that we consider this the TRUE time we're starting on that path, and take the NEXT six months, go to counseling, and do the REAL WORK we have been needing to do. She said I've been so back & forth that she won't give me an answer until she sees that I haven't changed my mind. I said I completely understand, so take until Wednesday to give me an answer (you'll see why I said Wednesday later).

 

The lesser of two evils to me is that staying and doing the real work, while still having to compromise in ways that are not comfortable to me, is still not as hard as ditching this family. Not to say that six months (or whenever) from now we might not come to the same decision, but I think it's worth a shot for all involved. She agrees in principle, but spent early Sunday morning search old emails of mine, and discovered some "heated" exchanges between me and the OW that have made it very hard for her to consider moving on with me (these are from September). I said I also understand that, and how she'd have a very hard time trusting me after all I've done, so she has every right to reject my offer or to at least take her time. And if she DOES accept my offer, I'm willing to integrate my other needs into the counseling - sex, quality time, deeper involvement in my company (where the OW works).

 

That's where things stand. What this proves to me is that, however harsh my decision was, IT WORKED. Many of us had the gut feeling that she would not budge on certain things unless she really felt scared that I'd leave. There you go. There's more than one way to get a good result. Now, I'd still be more or less fine if one or both of us decided this marriage is over, but feeling for the first time the serious impact that would have on all of us, I feel much better where we are now.

 

The only thing I can say I was truly pissed at in the last two days is that, of ALL the advice her family could have given her, the FIRST ACTION ITEM they suggested was that she get a separate bank account. Now I have no problem with this in principle, but it really is telling that their MAIN concern is the money. I know she & they are good people and are also considering the kids, etc. But why they think protecting the money is the BEST PRIORITY THEY COULD COME UP WITH, when A. I make my own substantial income, and B. Have never shown signs in the past of being the kind of person who'd "dip into her pot" - well that's just petty and insulting. BUT it's also practical, so the action itself I have no problem with. This action we've scheduled for Wednesday, which is why I proposed that she give me the answer about counseling that day. Seems fair.

 

I have a zillion other things to write, since SO MUCH of what my wife and said was in many ways new & healthy territory, but let me "answer" the recent posts in another post.

[NickFeek]

I'm not entirely sure how to use the multiquote function, so I hope this works....

 

WILLOW

Nick you don't really seem to here looking for help. People here, trippi, tojaz to name some have given you excellent advice to help repair your marriage and you constantly choose to ignore it.

 

Tip for you - which you can ignore if you want to - don't expect your life to be better after you have done this, the problem is not your wife, if it were you would not have been with her for 25 years. Unless you address the real problem here, you will REPEAT this in future relationships.

 

I have not ignored advice. There are plenty of things I've tried, some of which have worked & some haven't. I admit I've been heavily leaning in one direction.

 

What I'm sure you meant to say is that the problem is not JUST my wife. I fully understand that I run the risk of repeating patterns, but there is no question what our ENTIRE marriage has been is a repeating of patterns, from BOTH SIDES. We are essentially co-codependents.

 

2sunny

i think her tears MAY be designed to manipulate... so she still doesn't have to change a thing.

 

No, I don't think she's manipulating me with the tears. She HAS done that before, but I can tell the difference. These are real sadness & mourning.

 

Tojaz

I would keep that in mind though, infidelity damages a person very deeply and it makes little difference if you have moved past it, she may not be ready, and it makes little difference the reasons or the duration. The damage is done.

 

The healthy question is WHY SHES MADE THESE CHOICES! Lets face it Nick and be honest. Shes not staying up at Night working out ways to hurt you, plotting to screw you over or ways to lie to you. I think deep down you know that, yet thats how you've been treating her here.

 

I look and see a wife who is shying away from intimacy and seems to lack confidence in that area. I also see her taking refuge in a place where she does feel confident.... her career.

 

Well, what would happen to someone in that situation, a fear of intimacy and a lack of confidence if they came home and where told they were coming up short? that they had let you down? That would erode confidence rather quickly rather then build it.

 

I think she does, she just needs your help learning how.

 

What's worse: shooting someone in the head or slowly poisoning them to death? Answer: BOTH are bad for different reasons. BOTH are equally serious. She has been very clear in stating how damaged she is because of my infidelity. But I would argue that it's extremely easy for everyone to focus on the flashpoint of my horrible error and not the subtle erosion of intimacy that happened because of her slowly retreating over the decades. NEITHER one is good. BOTH are reprehensible & damaging. It's just that one is more morally & socially acceptable. Until she can see from a deep place that this has done as much to damage our marriage as my infidelity has (which I hope we can get to in counseling), we can't really build something better.

 

I have to agree that she hasn't been overtly malicious in what she's done to me/us (prior to my infidelity). I know she does love me deeply and maybe DOES need help learning how to do it so that I actually feel it. But I do think it's neglectful that she was either aware of this the whole time & did very little to correct it, or pushed it wayyyy down inside her so she wouldn't have to deal with it.

 

2sunny

and how is she supposed to learn - when she won't do anything different. won't go to counseling. and refuses to be home with them more than she is now, but keeps making empty promises?

she understand full well he feels unloved and lonely - and makes all promises to do better but never changes a thing.

 

This is the crux, and is hopefully what has just changed (we'll see Wednesday). I stand by my approach, and my ultimate decision, which is if EVEN THIS and the counseling are not enough, then it's best if we split. But I'm too conscious of the kids and still hopeful enough to hope that she will move in my direction.

 

Trippi

Sex is only one element of a marriage...what is apparent here is that Nick places a higher value of it than his wife does....and (sorry Nick), there appears to be a little bit of "buyer's remorse" going on since Nick has now experienced a new sex partner.

 

Actually, who is say that the wife's perspective here since the infidelity is that it's not worth going to counseling to fix...even you divorced a man for his infidelity...as did I. Some marriages can survive it with a lot of compassion and patience....many others can't.

 

This is the thing with marriage. How many other elements of it can you get from other sources? The companionship, friendship, support, talking, sharing, etc. You can do all of those things with others and not be looked on as crossing a line. With SEX, that's a no-go. That to me says that the ONE TANGIBLE thing you can't get ANYWHERE else in this culture is SEX. Yes, there are a load of intangibles, but even those you can cobble together elsewhere - various friends & family & activities you're passionate about. So in essence the ONE THING I (or anyone morally "right") can't get anywhere else is sex, and that's one of the two or three BIG things that have been lacking. It's like if a record company buys the rights to a band's album, and then lets it sit on the shelf for ten years without releasing it or promoting it. That's not fair. That band should have the right to get out of that contract or DEMAND the company do something real.

 

And yeah, let me be honest & say that one night I had with the OW included stuff I'd never done my entire life. It has upset me no end that this was the only way I could experience that, despite trying hard over the years with my wife. Again, I'm hoping we're on the road to change, but also again, we BOTH have to be happy with the results of that change or it's got to be over.

 

My wife is as on the fence as I am, which I think is extremely healthy. We may be on the same page for the first time ever. She has every right to not want to continue. I just want her to understand that our history has played as big a part in the fence-sitting as my infidelity.

 

WILLOW

My point is this, the left still goes on loving the leaver, despite what they have done, despite the fact they cheated or walked without even trying first because of their "reasons". It flabergasts me that these leavers can honestly convince themselves of their justifications for leaving when they have done so much worse, something so much more underserving of their spouses love and devotion.

 

At the end of the day it comes down to one thing. A persons sense of entitlement and their inability to love. These people don't know how to love, you don't love someone because they give you sex or they do what you want, it goes deeper than surface cost/benefit anyalysis. For people out there who think marriage is about getting what you want to be hapy 100% of the time without having to communicate and compromise in a partnership...DON'T GET MARRIED, you aren't up to it.

 

The only relevence here, is the blame that is being put onto Nicks wife without any consideration for her feelings or her perspective in all this. The women clearly loves him, she has stayed despite his affair and lets face it, she earns the main income in this family, she's finiacially indepentdent so she isn't staying for any other reason other than love. Perhaps she is trying, just not in the way Nick wants, but that is not a reason to walk away from 25 years.

 

Yeah I don't buy that at all, that first paragraph. I'll repeat that what I did is not WORSE than what she did over so so so so many years. I STAYED with her out of love and hope (and other reasons), even when there was little or no indication that she'd open up as a person. It might be harder to swallow the bomb I exploded all at once, but if I can have endured years of loneliness, I'd hope she can endure this.

 

I agree that neither of us know how to love. We've made a mess of it in different ways. I also think, however, that if you think of love as this "you support me I'll support you and that warm feeling inside will endure" without make sure there are tangible & satisfying expressions of that love that DO MEET a person's needs, then it's all feeling & talk and has no relevance to the real world.

 

I agree with that last paragraph completely.

 

Knitwit

I am sorry, Nick, but you look like you still have a "wayward mentality" of entitlement. You cheated on your wife and not even a year later, you are leaving because you still not getting your way.

 

The way that happens is that the WS deals with the fall-out & sticks through the hard part, & that hard part seems to really kick in at the 6-month part. This is right when you started posting.

 

I haven't read your entire thread, so I may be way off-base. However, in the sections I have read, I haven't read anything on what you may be doing to convince your wife that you love only her, trying to find out what her needs are and addressing them, etc. This is the hard work of reconciliation.

If you think you might want to save your marriage, I think you need to re-exam what you are doing immediately. You are very focused on your needs, but unless you want to be divorced, you need to put the spotlight on her needs & making sure they are met.

 

I do not blame your wife for crying her eyes out. She has been with you since she was a teen and you are the father of her children. She already took a big poop sandwhich from you when you cheated, and quite soon thereafter you are bailing on her again. She probably feels completely rejected.

However, I am posting because you seem "foggy" to me. I think you are still confused & you're not sure what you want.

 

It looks to me that you are asking to separate as a way to manipulate your wife into giving you what you want. You are hoping to wake her up & shock into realizing how serious you are. I think this might work if you hadn't cheated- instead, you have already abused her via infidelity & I think she is much more likely to see this as more abuse, or as just another way for you to leave.

 

I am struggling with the "entitlement" thing. I do have that streak. But I also believe that people SHOULD be able to expect certain things from a relationship. So where is that line?

 

I hadn't heard that the hard times kick in at around six months. That explains A LOT, and in a way gives me hope.

 

I admit I have been way too conflicted to just out & out express my love for her. There's a LOT of hurt I've been holding onto, accumulated starting at least 19 years ago. I was not prepared to just throw myself at her feet & give up all rights & needs, when in so many ways that's what I'd been doing anyway & getting not great results. I have believed that counseling is the only route that has a chance of working, and I stand by that.

 

You're absolutely right about why she's crying. And you're right that I'm VERY foggy.

 

As stated before, what I did has actually worked. Stranger things have happened. I'm sure it is a MUCH harder sell after my infidelity, but still it worked.

 

Soserious

Your milage of course may vary but it's always been my experience that people only institute changes in their lives if they feel they are going to benefit from doing so.

 

Nick shared with us that during sex, his wife made the comment "yeah, it's good for YOU" she also commented that if they divorce Nick's life will 'get a lot easier" I suspect that Nick's wife feels that if she bows to Nick's demands for change that she won't be getting anything that benefits her.

 

It's entirely possible that Nick's wife is crying because nobody gets married hoping that divorce will be the outcome, you can cry and be very sad about a negative outcome while also knowing that outcome is what needs to happen.

 

As for counseling, if a person has decided that a relationship cannot be salvaged or that the benefit they would receive isn't worth the effort it will require, why bother?

 

Nick's wife may know perfectly well that change is needed, she might be sad about a divorce but might also well know that it's the only outcome in which both of them have a shot at getting their needs met in future.

 

My wife has definitely been questioning what exactly she'd be getting out of the "deal" I'm trying to strike with her. And I can understand her questioning that. It's a very precarious situation. I know myself well enough to know that if we are not very careful in building something that is open, honest, and SUSTAINABLE, I will falter again. I'M NOT SAYING I'll cheat. That I will never want to live through again. But I think we'll both slip into old patterns that run the risk of setting up big falls in the future. Again, COUNSELING to me is the real answer, for so many reasons.

 

That is definitely why she's crying, and I fully give her that credit & do not question her "motive".

 

Yes, my wife is struggling with whether or not counseling is worth it. I think she knows that her answer on Wednesday to counseling will also be a YES or NO to our marriage, so we'll see. I'll say for my part that one of the reasons I said I'd leave Saturday night is because I THOUGHT strongly that counseling would not change much. I'm still not sure what will come of it, but I absolutely believe it's worth the effort, with all that's at stake.

 

That last paragraph, I think that sums up where we BOTH are right now. And like I said before, I'd much rather we be in the same place that way than one of us wistfully wanting to save something so damaged & flawed, because that to me shows that we are working from a place of reality.

 

Thanks again to everyone. I'll keep updating. Really DID NOT expect things to be or feel like this.

[willowthewisp]

I don't have much time to post as I have law finals in 8 hours and need some sleep but I just wanted to clarfiy what I wrote, not that it really matters because we disagree anyway Nick, but for the sake of clarification of my own words.

 

No I did not mean to say the problem is not JUST your wife, I meant what I said the problem is NOT your wife.

 

Also, I disagree with what you said about your infidelity not being worse than your wifes behaviour. Your wife did not consiously do anything to hurt you, you knew indifedlity would hurt your wife and despite why it happened you still had a choice in whether to have sex with another women. We will never agree on this point.

 

Also, I do not see love as a feeling, it is an action, a choice, but it is not about how much you get.

 

I am pleased to see that you and your wife may be having a go at working through this.

[NickFeek]

I don't have much time to post as I have law finals in 8 hours and need some sleep but I just wanted to clarfiy what I wrote, not that it really matters because we disagree anyway Nick, but for the sake of clarification of my own words.

 

No I did not mean to say the problem is not JUST your wife, I meant what I said the problem is NOT your wife.

 

Also, I disagree with what you said about your infidelity not being worse than your wifes behaviour. Your wife did not consiously do anything to hurt you, you knew indifedlity would hurt your wife and despite why it happened you still had a choice in whether to have sex with another women. We will never agree on this point.

 

Also, I do not see love as a feeling, it is an action, a choice, but it is not about how much you get.

 

I am pleased to see that you and your wife may be having a go at working through this.

 

I appreciate you taking time out. I remember second hand how much work law finals are!

 

Wow, okay, then that's disturbing. You're saying the entire problem of this marriage falls on ME? The problem is me, the problem is my wife. If you really don't believe that then we have nothing further to discuss on that subject.

 

And UNTIL you've endured decades of loneliness and neglect, you also have no basis to say that what she did with the marriage was not worse than what I did. NOT doing something you should be doing is AS BAD AS doing something you shouldn't. There were ABSOLUTELY TIMES IN OUR MARRIAGE when she was making a conscious decision not to engage with me on any satisfying level. Knowing that, if you still say that isn't a bad and IN EFFECT malicious thing, then again we may as well not discuss this subject.

 

Okay good. Then I agree with you about love. And yet I have to point out that I think the common "wisdom" of people separating the importance of both quality and quantity is false & damagingly reductionist. BOTH are important. Having one night every two months of really intimate and personal time that is hugely satisfying is not enough to sustain any relationship. At the same time, having a hundred nights of time together that's just watching TV & never talking is also not enough. It's about quality AND quantity, so on one level it IS about how much you get.

 

Thank you. I really hope we can find the common ground we've been missing, and take it from there. And though I disagree vehement with much of what you're saying, I really appreciate you bringing all of it up.

[Afishwithabike]

Nick, I've followed your massive thread from the beginning. I hope things work out.

 

What I don't understand is why you still have old emails from the OW. Get rid of them!!! You should have deleted them a long time ago. Delete them today if you have to along with anything else from her. I hope these are old emails and not more recent emails since you ended the affair.

[NickFeek]

Nick, I've followed your massive thread from the beginning. I hope things work out.

 

What I don't understand is why you still have old emails from the OW. Get rid of them!!! You should have deleted them a long time ago. Delete them today if you have to along with anything else from her. I hope these are old emails and not more recent emails since you ended the affair.

 

What's bizarre is I erased them MONTHS ago, so I'm not sure where these came from. But it serves me right, so I'm not crying over this one.

[knitwit]

I am struggling with the "entitlement" thing. I do have that streak. But I also believe that people SHOULD be able to expect certain things from a relationship. So where is that line?

 

I hadn't heard that the hard times kick in at around six months. That explains A LOT, and in a way gives me hope.

 

I admit I have been way too conflicted to just out & out express my love for her. There's a LOT of hurt I've been holding onto, accumulated starting at least 19 years ago. I was not prepared to just throw myself at her feet & give up all rights & needs, when in so many ways that's what I'd been doing anyway & getting not great results. I have believed that counseling is the only route that has a chance of working, and I stand by that.

 

You're absolutely right about why she's crying. And you're right that I'm VERY foggy.

 

As stated before, what I did has actually worked. Stranger things have happened. I'm sure it is a MUCH harder sell after my infidelity, but still it worked.

 

Hi Nick,

 

I am very glad to read that you two are not separating right away. Hopefully you two can fix things and not separate at all.

 

I say this because I believe that you really don't want to divorce your wife. I think that you want to remain married to her, but happily, not unhappily and lonely, the way you've been married for a long time now.

 

I have two main reasons for thinking this. 1. You've spent a long time on this thread and surely many more hours offline thinking and writing about this. 2. There is no good outcome from Infidelity- but in the midst of a horrific action, you did keep it very short, end it on your own, and have the guts to confess. Generally speaking, this is much better than most people who cheat manage to do. If you really wanted out of the marriage, you could have used it as an exit affair; you also had the possibility of cake-eating. You didn't do either one.

 

Now, of course, I am only going off of what you are posting here and my own experience- I don't know you or your wife; feel free to tell me if I am totally off-base.

 

I do think you are very, very foggy and very entitled. Here are recent examples of what I consider foggy and entitled thinking:

 

You said: "And UNTIL you've endured decades of loneliness and neglect, you also have no basis to say that what she did with the marriage was not worse than what I did. NOT doing something you should be doing is AS BAD AS doing something you shouldn't. There were ABSOLUTELY TIMES IN OUR MARRIAGE when she was making a conscious decision not to engage with me on any satisfying level. Knowing that, if you still say that isn't a bad and IN EFFECT malicious thing, then again we may as well not discuss this subject."

 

Nick- this is absolutely insane thinking. I don't really have any words for it, other than it is a prime example of Foggy Wayward entitled thinking.

 

Here is another one:

 

"What's worse: shooting someone in the head or slowly poisoning them to death? Answer: BOTH are bad for different reasons. BOTH are equally serious. She has been very clear in stating how damaged she is because of my infidelity. But I would argue that it's extremely easy for everyone to focus on the flashpoint of my horrible error and not the subtle erosion of intimacy that happened because of her slowly retreating over the decades. NEITHER one is good. BOTH are reprehensible & damaging. It's just that one is more morally & socially acceptable. Until she can see from a deep place that this has done as much to damage our marriage as my infidelity has (which I hope we can get to in counseling), we can't really build something better."

 

Do you know what they both statements have in common? You are blaming her for your actions. You could have put a stop to her neglect at any time by using your boundaries, stating what changes you wanted, and stuck to it. But you didn't. You decided to solve or at least salve your problem by getting affection and admiration and good sex from someone else.

 

This is the equivalent of throwing a grenade into your house. I see that you are very hurt and have legitmate gripes. However, your actions have blown everything else out of the water.

 

Infidelity inflicts a grave and frequently fatal wound for marriages. Your actions basically informed your wife, I am not happy with how you are treating me and so I am going to go get it from someone else. Using your example, it's like you shot her in the head. You had the choice to keep drinking from the poisoned well- she didn't have a say in her getting shot in the head.

 

She is laying there bleeding from the wound YOU inflicted, and you are kicking her when she is down. You are not helping, apologizing, trying to help her heal. You are basically telling her, you are STILL not doing what I want. Figuratively speaking, you are trying to punish her for YOUR actions of drinking posion by shooting her in the head and blaming her because you chose to martyr yourself.

 

It is fallacy to try to focus on what your wife isn't doing for you. Why should she do a thing for you? You are not safe for her. You talk about how you don't feel loved, but you have been doing VERY unloving things towards her. Then you are telling her that she deserves it (eg what I did is just as bad as what you didn't do), but she if she changes her behavior then maybe things will get better.

 

In other words- the beatings (affairs, separations, ultimatiums) will continue until morale improves.

 

I really don't see that you have much empathy at all for your wife. I think you love her, but I don't think you at all appreciate how badly you have acted towards her.

 

Have you heard the saying, "both are responsible for the state of the marriage prior to the affair, but the wayward spouse is the only one responsible for the actual affair"? She is responsible for half the marriage- but she is not the one who is trying to fix the marriage by stepping outside of it. You are 100% responsible for that bad decision and the decisions that you are making in the aftermath.

 

I think you are reacting out of longing and hurt and even love for your wife and family, but I think you making very misguided decisions.

 

I would also caution you that your actions here may not have actually worked as you think. It may have worked insofar as she is willing to talk more with you. But I also see her family circling the wagons. You may think her family is all about the money, but I bet that they are prepping her to make the first steps to be independent from you. (Incidently- do they know about your affair, or are they recommending she take this step based only off the idea that you two might seperate?) Seperate accounts is a basic step to her becoming solid on her own regardless of whether or not you are reliable financially. She is saying to you that she is watching your actions before she commits to making an effort- she could very easily pull the plug.

 

I do agree with you that it is a good and certainly acheivable thing for you to have a happy marriage. I use "entitlement" to mean that your actions suggest that you believe in an "any means necessary" mentality to achieve your goals. You think you deserve it, so you can do whatever you want to get it, and because she won't do whatever it is you want so badly that it is all a wash.

 

 

I really hope that you two do find something to make it work. I do believe you love her, I don't think it is your intention to hurt her, but I do think that you are gravely underestimating what you are doing to her. I also think you are underestimating the effect it will have on you if she decides she can do better and leaves.

 

There are all sorts of websites and counselors. I really do like Marriage Builders (the counselors are great but the forums are insane in a bad way.) If you want, you can email them and get radio counseling for free, and see if its worthwhile for you as opposed to spending $$. I can tell you that MB would very much support you in your wish for more time with your wife- they have a minimum of 15 hrs/week of undivided attention time in order to have a good marriage. They might be able to help you help your wife (usually there is a reluctant spouse and one who wants to improve or save a marriage, they will not be surprised by your situation.) My H and I haven't had infidelity, but we (I) do use their theories- they make a lot of sense. They have a good method (but of course, not the only method for having a good marriage.)

 

In the end- it might be that divorce is the best option for you. It would be better, though, to learn new and improved way to hold your boundaries, negotiate, solve problems, and show protection and care for your loved ones as opposed to the war that is currently in progress. At the very least you could carry your new skills into a new relationship (and I do believe they are learned skills- I know I am still learning them!) If you can clean up your own side of the street and have behaviors that are honorable and loving regardless of what your wife is doing, I would say that you've truly done everything you can. Until then, though, I hope you two do keep trying for the sake of your family- and if you both commit to it, I'll bet you'd find success.

 

Good luck to you! Please do keep posting.

[2sunny]

it's good to see some movement!

 

change is always uncomfortable... that's why people hate it and avoid it - but ultimately to be miserable and NOT change things around isn't useful if the complacency is unhappy, at best.

 

being comfortable with being UNcomfortable is change... and should be expected IF things are moving forward - which it looks like maybe they are.

 

 

on a side note - since you work with your former OW - it would be best to consider changing companies/jobs. is that possible?

 

if i had known this earlier- i would have suggested it... most BS would not trust easily when the WS continues being employed with the OM/OW. can that change be considered IF the M stays together?

 

 

so - did she say yes to counseling or no? i couldn't decipher how she responded...

[trippi1432]

it's good to see some movement!

 

change is always uncomfortable... that's why people hate it and avoid it - but ultimately to be miserable and NOT change things around isn't useful if the complacency is unhappy, at best.

 

being comfortable with being UNcomfortable is change... and should be expected IF things are moving forward - which it looks like maybe they are.

 

 

on a side note - since you work with your former OW - it would be best to consider changing companies/jobs. is that possible?

 

if i had known this earlier- i would have suggested it... most BS would not trust easily when the WS continues being employed with the OM/OW. can that change be considered IF the M stays together?

 

 

so - did she say yes to counseling or no? i couldn't decipher how she responded...

 

I would agree here...guess you missed this bit 2 Sunny...I posted on it on page four...been keeping up *thank you* since the threads inception.

 

As well as your reciprocal posts....as well as the ones that aren't here anymore.

 

Nick..at the end of scheme of all things...can you compromise?

[2sunny]

I would agree here...guess you missed this bit 2 Sunny...I posted on it on page four...been keeping up *thank you* since the threads inception.

 

As well as your reciprocal posts....as well as the ones that aren't here anymore.

 

Nick..at the end of scheme of all things...can you compromise?

 

trippi... did posts get deleted? or were you referring to posters that have no longer been giving input as time has gone along?

 

 

Nick, change is good - change brings hope... the idea with change is to change things, if you two don't like certain aspects about that change - you two change it again and again... until you've seen enough changes to know what works and what doesn't work... but understand what a new kind of happy can look like. change also invoke new and lively energy, which is good!

 

you have now forced SOME change to start happening... that is good! now other considerations are coming into play - THAT is good too! don't back down... just keep seeing IF there is enough change to bring about some hope- hope that things can get better. keep in mind- change always requires action - so expect to see actions - the action part of it is what makes things change.

 

if it's idle talk - that doesn't mean a thing with no action happening. if you two don't like it and you're working on getting the M to a healthy place - keep changing things continually to see what new scenarios and "new energy" can be implemented into the M. you could do it until you are both happy. it also gives you two the chance at never having a boring marriage.

 

it could look like = hi honey, i just packed a picnic for us and want to meet today at the park for lunch. i would love to have the pleasure of your company for an hour if you can make that work. what do you think Nick? encourage her to stretch her imagination about having fun with you again too! have you recently given her a full body massage? most gals love that...

 

do you see what i'm suggesting IF you consider staying? don't stay to keep it the same - only consider staying IF you both have a chance that it could be a loving relationship in the future where you both treat each other with respect and loving behavior- always thinking of each other... and never the need to feel alone/lonely again.

 

 

an amends (change) for your wife - as it relates to your cheating- could be removing yourself from the presence of your former OW. it begins to set things right... your wife. it allows her to understand that YOU are willing to take action for the wrong you did to her. this should be considered if you want to consider repairing the damage you created by the action you took that created that situation.

[soserious1]

Nick is actually in a pretty good position to force his wife to accommodate any changes he might desire, provided that he engage the most aggressive Father's Right's lawyer he can find (preferably female) and acts quickly to file, having his wife served with papers requesting temp sole custody of the children, temp spousal and child support and that he and the kids be allowed to remain in the family home temporarily. Nick will then need to quickly give up one of his 2 jobs in order to better care for the children.

 

Here's the deal.. there's a good chance depending on the state he lives in that his infidelity won't matter as it's not a factor in the law there. He needs a pretty female lawyer to paint his wife as a cold, calculating heartless biatch who would stop at nothing to succeed in her legal career, including neglecting and abandoning a young child who has been displaying increasing signs of a developing psychiatric condition ie: anxiety. Nick's lawyer will paint him as the poor, love sick husband who failing to get his wife to heed his call to come to home, gave up his own career aspirations to nurture their children. His lawyer will remind the judge at each and every turn that men all over the state are watching his honor to be sure that equal treatment is given.

 

When all is said and done, Nick will have sole legal and physical custody, he'll tie the family house up till the kids are 18, he'll be awarded generous alimony and child support, if the child proves in need of ongoing psych help Nick might well collect alimony for life. His wife might also be awarded the lion's share of the family's debt to boot. Armed with the right lawyer, Nick's infidelity won't matter at all he'll wipe the floors with his wife.

 

This is the kind of case judges love because they can really stick it to a career woman proving to father's right's activists that their judgments are fair. The thing is though Nick has to get in there and file first as no doubt his wife is well aware of what happens in these kinds of cases as well.

 

When Nick has temp orders in his hands, when he has sole custody of the kids and possession of literally everything they own, he can basically put it to her very directly" 'we go to counseling. we start having regular sex whenever I request it and you come home by 6pm to cook,clean and take care of these kids or you'll be seeing your kids in a social worker's office once a week and living in your parent's basement because you won't be able to afford an apt"

 

Nick can force change but he's got to file and do it quickly.

 

Nick, I'm paying $2,750 per month plus full medical coverage including co-pays to a man who cheated on me and refused intimacy with me. The only reason I still have my house is because I owned it outright prior to the marriage. The judge made his position very clear, regardless of what my ex did or did not do, he was dependent on me fiscally & the judge was not going to allow for the possibility that my dependent would be foisted off onto the taxpayers of this state.

 

File, quit one of your jobs ASAP after you've got temp orders, hit her with both barrels, make it clear she either gives 150% to restoring your marriage or you will blow her away legally and socially. Hitting her hard, in language she understands might well shock her into making some real changes and attempting to salvage the marriage, if shes not willing to do as you request, if she's willing to walk away from her entire life in order to avoid being with you, the marriage wasn't fixable and this would have been the outcome anyway.

Edited June 7, 2011 by soserious1

[tojaz]

I just want her to understand that our history has played as big a part in the fence-sitting as my infidelity.

 

 

 

Yeah I don't buy that at all, that first paragraph. I'll repeat that what I did is not WORSE than what she did over so so so so many years. I STAYED with her out of love and hope (and other reasons), even when there was little or no indication that she'd open up as a person. It might be harder to swallow the bomb I exploded all at once, but if I can have endured years of loneliness, I'd hope she can endure this.

 

 

Nick, your not sitting on the fence anymore, you've made your decision and desperately hoping for someone to tell you its the right thing to do.

 

Good luck to you

 

TOJAZ

[trippi1432]

This is the thing with marriage. How many other elements of it can you get from other sources? The companionship, friendship, support, talking, sharing, etc. You can do all of those things with others and not be looked on as crossing a line. With SEX, that's a no-go. That to me says that the ONE TANGIBLE thing you can't get ANYWHERE else in this culture is SEX. Yes, there are a load of intangibles, but even those you can cobble together elsewhere - various friends & family & activities you're passionate about. So in essence the ONE THING I (or anyone morally "right") can't get anywhere else is sex, and that's one of the two or three BIG things that have been lacking. It's like if a record company buys the rights to a band's album, and then lets it sit on the shelf for ten years without releasing it or promoting it. That's not fair. That band should have the right to get out of that contract or DEMAND the company do something real.

 

And yeah, let me be honest & say that one night I had with the OW included stuff I'd never done my entire life. It has upset me no end that this was the only way I could experience that, despite trying hard over the years with my wife. Again, I'm hoping we're on the road to change, but also again, we BOTH have to be happy with the results of that change or it's got to be over.

 

My wife is as on the fence as I am, which I think is extremely healthy. We may be on the same page for the first time ever. She has every right to not want to continue. I just want her to understand that our history has played as big a part in the fence-sitting as my infidelity.

 

Well Nick - just from my aspect, the bolded part above is what makes the relationship worth it, it is a necessary part of the relationship...it is what was missing in my marriage, but the sex was there. Sex was the only intimacy that I got in my marriage, but it didn't make me want to be emotionally close to him because he was terrible at the other stuff. Not saying that you are, but how much of those intangibles have been present in your marriage through the years? Were they there years ago?

 

Could there have been so much of an emphasis on the sex that she feels she doesn't need to be present for the other aspects of the marriage? All those things that you point out you can get from other sources are the things that build the foundation of the relationship...and help to fuel the passion.

[NickFeek]

Thank you for all of that. There's a lot of truth in what you say, and some things that I needed to hear. But there are also some things that I feel need disputing or correcting. I have excerpted only the parts I'm responding to.

 

I have two main reasons for thinking this. 1. You've spent a long time on this thread and surely many more hours offline thinking and writing about this. 2. There is no good outcome from Infidelity- but in the midst of a horrific action, you did keep it very short, end it on your own, and have the guts to confess. Generally speaking, this is much better than most people who cheat manage to do. If you really wanted out of the marriage, you could have used it as an exit affair; you also had the possibility of cake-eating. You didn't do either one.

 

I absolutely do want this to work, now more than ever. I don't think I had quite the guts you give me credit for, as the way I told her & the weeks it took me to finally fess up could not really be called brave. But listening to recent news stories of other infidelities, I can say that although I do not excuse or minimize what I did, I realized fairly quickly it was a big mistake, and ended it.

 

I do think you are very, very foggy and very entitled. Here are recent examples of what I consider foggy and entitled thinking:

 

You said: "And UNTIL you've endured decades of loneliness and neglect, you also have no basis to say that what she did with the marriage was not worse than what I did. NOT doing something you should be doing is AS BAD AS doing something you shouldn't. There were ABSOLUTELY TIMES IN OUR MARRIAGE when she was making a conscious decision not to engage with me on any satisfying level. Knowing that, if you still say that isn't a bad and IN EFFECT malicious thing, then again we may as well not discuss this subject."

 

Nick- this is absolutely insane thinking. I don't really have any words for it, other than it is a prime example of Foggy Wayward entitled thinking.

 

I have to disagree with this. I wish you'd elaborate on why you think this is insane & entitled. I have more to say on this general subject below.

 

Here is another one:

 

"What's worse: shooting someone in the head or slowly poisoning them to death? Answer: BOTH are bad for different reasons. BOTH are equally serious. She has been very clear in stating how damaged she is because of my infidelity. But I would argue that it's extremely easy for everyone to focus on the flashpoint of my horrible error and not the subtle erosion of intimacy that happened because of her slowly retreating over the decades. NEITHER one is good. BOTH are reprehensible & damaging. It's just that one is more morally & socially acceptable. Until she can see from a deep place that this has done as much to damage our marriage as my infidelity has (which I hope we can get to in counseling), we can't really build something better."

 

Do you know what they both statements have in common? You are blaming her for your actions. You could have put a stop to her neglect at any time by using your boundaries, stating what changes you wanted, and stuck to it. But you didn't. You decided to solve or at least salve your problem by getting affection and admiration and good sex from someone else.

 

This is the equivalent of throwing a grenade into your house. I see that you are very hurt and have legitmate gripes. However, your actions have blown everything else out of the water.

 

I think people OFTEN confuse facts with excuses. I am not blaming her for my behavior, or excusing what I did. So you're wrong about that entirely. I chose to do a bad thing. I chose to handle our problems in a very bad & destructive way. BUT NONE OF THAT diminishes her neglect. And to say I could simply have PUT A STOP to it is naive. Firstly, I tried so many times over the years, in so many ways, and got nowhere with her. In frustration & misguided thinking, I would lose patience & lash out, none worse than my infidelity. And I own those mistakes. But again, if she had even a little acknowledged with ACTION AND CHANGE what she was NOT doing, and given me some sign she was actually hearing my pleas and attempts to help, things would have been different.

 

BUT I AGREE that what I did was like throwing a grenade, and that I've set back whatever work we could have done by a lot of months or more. I regret it every day.

 

You had the choice to keep drinking from the poisoned well- she didn't have a say in her getting shot in the head.

 

She is laying there bleeding from the wound YOU inflicted, and you are kicking her when she is down. You are not helping, apologizing, trying to help her heal. You are basically telling her, you are STILL not doing what I want. Figuratively speaking, you are trying to punish her for YOUR actions of drinking posion by shooting her in the head and blaming her because you chose to martyr yourself.

 

I may have had the choice to stop drinking, but I stayed for a million reasons, and tried so often to stop that poisoning. SHE was the poisoner, so at some point, if we're truly going to build something better than what we had, she needs to take ownership of that.

 

But yes, in my guilt I have been lashing out. I still think it's important for both of us to know what we need to make the future work.

 

It is fallacy to try to focus on what your wife isn't doing for you. Why should she do a thing for you? You are not safe for her. You talk about how you don't feel loved, but you have been doing VERY unloving things towards her. Then you are telling her that she deserves it (eg what I did is just as bad as what you didn't do), but she if she changes her behavior then maybe things will get better.

 

I really don't see that you have much empathy at all for your wife. I think you love her, but I don't think you at all appreciate how badly you have acted towards her.

 

Yes maybe now she shouldn't do anything for me, but what about before? What was her reason then?

 

I have been struggling with the empathy, and can say it's only this weekend that I really feel how much I hurt her. Which ironically may be too late.

 

Have you heard the saying, "both are responsible for the state of the marriage prior to the affair, but the wayward spouse is the only one responsible for the actual affair"? She is responsible for half the marriage- but she is not the one who is trying to fix the marriage by stepping outside of it. You are 100% responsible for that bad decision and the decisions that you are making in the aftermath.

 

I think you are reacting out of longing and hurt and even love for your wife and family, but I think you making very misguided decisions.

 

I really hope that you two do find something to make it work. I do believe you love her, I don't think it is your intention to hurt her, but I do think that you are gravely underestimating what you are doing to her. I also think you are underestimating the effect it will have on you if she decides she can do better and leaves.

 

I agree completely with that first paragraph, and the second one as well. Also agree with the last paragraph, and I don't think there's anything I can add. I'm quite scared right now.

[NickFeek]

it's good to see some movement!

 

change is always uncomfortable... that's why people hate it and avoid it - but ultimately to be miserable and NOT change things around isn't useful if the complacency is unhappy, at best.

 

being comfortable with being UNcomfortable is change... and should be expected IF things are moving forward - which it looks like maybe they are.

 

 

on a side note - since you work with your former OW - it would be best to consider changing companies/jobs. is that possible?

 

if i had known this earlier- i would have suggested it... most BS would not trust easily when the WS continues being employed with the OM/OW. can that change be considered IF the M stays together?

 

 

so - did she say yes to counseling or no? i couldn't decipher how she responded...

 

Unfortunately it's a startup company with very few employees, so it would be very difficult for me to exit now without it going under. But I am still considering doing that anyway.

 

She has not yet said yes to counseling. I am still making the calls, and proceeding with those plans. But she is in an incredibly bad state right now. Maybe the worst she's been ever. So I'm not sure how this will go.

[NickFeek]

trippi... did posts get deleted? or were you referring to posters that have no longer been giving input as time has gone along?

 

 

Nick, change is good - change brings hope... the idea with change is to change things, if you two don't like certain aspects about that change - you two change it again and again... until you've seen enough changes to know what works and what doesn't work... but understand what a new kind of happy can look like. change also invoke new and lively energy, which is good!

 

you have now forced SOME change to start happening... that is good! now other considerations are coming into play - THAT is good too! don't back down... just keep seeing IF there is enough change to bring about some hope- hope that things can get better. keep in mind- change always requires action - so expect to see actions - the action part of it is what makes things change.

 

if it's idle talk - that doesn't mean a thing with no action happening. if you two don't like it and you're working on getting the M to a healthy place - keep changing things continually to see what new scenarios and "new energy" can be implemented into the M. you could do it until you are both happy. it also gives you two the chance at never having a boring marriage.

 

it could look like = hi honey, i just packed a picnic for us and want to meet today at the park for lunch. i would love to have the pleasure of your company for an hour if you can make that work. what do you think Nick? encourage her to stretch her imagination about having fun with you again too! have you recently given her a full body massage? most gals love that...

 

do you see what i'm suggesting IF you consider staying? don't stay to keep it the same - only consider staying IF you both have a chance that it could be a loving relationship in the future where you both treat each other with respect and loving behavior- always thinking of each other... and never the need to feel alone/lonely again.

 

 

an amends (change) for your wife - as it relates to your cheating- could be removing yourself from the presence of your former OW. it begins to set things right... your wife. it allows her to understand that YOU are willing to take action for the wrong you did to her. this should be considered if you want to consider repairing the damage you created by the action you took that created that situation.

 

I do see what you're saying, and it is my hope that whatever we build will be very different from what we had.

 

I really do need to seriously consider what to do about the company.

[NickFeek]

I would agree here...guess you missed this bit 2 Sunny...I posted on it on page four...been keeping up *thank you* since the threads inception.

 

As well as your reciprocal posts....as well as the ones that aren't here anymore.

 

Nick..at the end of scheme of all things...can you compromise?

 

I am ready now more than ever to compromise.

[NickFeek]

Nick, your not sitting on the fence anymore, you've made your decision and desperately hoping for someone to tell you its the right thing to do.

 

Good luck to you

 

TOJAZ

 

I'm not sure if you're saying I've made the decision to leave or stay, based on what you quoted.