2sunny Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 so put the journal in front of her and simply show her the evidence that she's NOT doing what she agreed to do. do that now. no need to wait, you have her lack of effort to change her schedule this week.
tojaz Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 I think that, being a strong, intelligent & strong-willed person, she often uses her strength & will to deflect sensitive issues. I'm trying to think of exact instances, other than her reluctance to continue in individual therapy. The only thing I can think of relates back to her harassing boss. To refresh, he was her first law firm boss, and he was just an awful person. He verbally harassed her pretty much every day. After a couple of years of this, she fell into a depression - this was right after we got married. She moved on to another job, started therapy & medication, and after a few years really picked herself back up. She quit therapy, sued the boss, and won a decent settlement out of court. YET anything that brings up that period, or people from that period, still causes her intense anxiety. Case in point - when we moved to NYC she had to take the bar (she was already barred in NJ & PA). She did great, and went on to her current career successes. What I didn't know, and didn't find out until the final deadline was looming a few YEARS later was that she had not completed and handed in certain key documents, meaning she was not officially barred in NY. She'd ask me for help periodically, always with lots of anxiety. I would do what I could, but as you know when it comes to legal matters of any kind, usually the person herself has to do certain things (I can't be a proxy for a grown woman). So I'd ask her to give me X Y or Z so I could further the process. She'd get so "caught up" in her daily work that she'd let it slide over & over again. I'd even give her specific tasks only she could do, and check on her once a week. She'd either lie or brush off my questions. Eventually another year or two passed, and she came to me in a huge panic, saying if she didn't finally get these docs in, she'd have to take the bar again, meaning she'd probably lose her job. I said I'd do what I could, but that again it was really up to her. She got extremely pissed and resentful, saying I was being insensitive and not understanding and not helpful. I will say after years of this over & over, I WAS getting a little insensitive. It seemed to me that if she was a decade removed from the harassment - and during that time she went to therapy & "worked it out" well enough to quit, that filing a few papers (they were papers she needed consultation from people from that office to get) shouldn't be a problem. I had no clue she was still that traumatized by all of what happened. We did get them filed & she is now officially barred, but she has never forgiven me for the way I handled it. In my mind, she was so scared for so many years of expressing her vulnerability on this subject that she let all this slide until it was do or die. I'm sure I don't have the empathy she'd like me to have, but I was supportive through her harassment, depression, "recovery", lawsuit, and all these legal filing issues, and I still end up the bad guy. I have apologized to her for the times I WAS insensitive & short-tempered, and have learned to listen more and be more understanding, but I don't think she'll ever forgive me. Not for real. OK, now you have laid out that she is fairly successful in her field. How about at home? Does she take pride in being a mother and wife (before things got here obviously) or was it sort of against her grain? (Not implying anything about how much she loves her family or anything like that) TOJAZ
Author NickFeek Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 so put the journal in front of her and simply show her the evidence that she's NOT doing what she agreed to do. do that now. no need to wait, you have her lack of effort to change her schedule this week. That's what I'm going to do. I'd also really like to know if she's been happier this week than normal. I know she's exuding positivity, but that could easily be masking the same old unease. If she says she IS happier, then that is a GIANT red flag.
Author NickFeek Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 OK, now you have laid out that she is fairly successful in her field. How about at home? Does she take pride in being a mother and wife (before things got here obviously) or was it sort of against her grain? (Not implying anything about how much she loves her family or anything like that) TOJAZ Oh no question she takes great pride in being a mother, and always has. I've said it before, but despite her work hours I would not want anyone else in the world parenting our kids (besides me). She is very loving & caring, and is always worrying and thinking about them. She comes up with great ideas for family outings & home stuff for the kids, and is diligent about school. Their bedrooms look great because of her, and they still rely on her as much as possible for love & support. I'm not excusing her work hours at all, but if there is ANY other area where she gives a ton of effort, it's in parenting. I have no idea if she takes pride in being a wife. I think she has always had an ideal of what being married should be like, and that she's always wanted to be sure that OTHERS perceive us as being happily married (and almost everyone in the world had until recently). But her idea of how to be a wife does not seem in touch with what's really needed to sustain a marriage, so if she DOES take pride in it, it's within a very narrow bandwidth. And I'm positive that once we started to have kids, she went into marital coasting mode. It's not that she doesn't care about me, more that she only feels compelled to care in ways that fit for her.
2sunny Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 That's what I'm going to do. I'd also really like to know if she's been happier this week than normal. I know she's exuding positivity, but that could easily be masking the same old unease. If she says she IS happier, then that is a GIANT red flag. pretending to be happy when one is not - is LIVING a lie. when the actions don't match the feelings or words - there's a lie in there. we already know she does this pretending and avoiding any "feelings" - because what she says and what she does are two completely separate things. she proves this as if it's her sense of "normal". she's so used to pretending that she's got you thinking this should be enough for a happy marriage. i seem to be repeating myself here... i believe i should step away - there's no real progress - and i'm not being useful any longer. no change - no need for me. go in peace and happiness...
Author NickFeek Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 pretending to be happy when one is not - is LIVING a lie. when the actions don't match the feelings or words - there's a lie in there. we already know she does this pretending and avoiding any "feelings" - because what she says and what she does are two completely separate things. she proves this as if it's her sense of "normal". she's so used to pretending that she's got you thinking this should be enough for a happy marriage. i seem to be repeating myself here... i believe i should step away - there's no real progress - and i'm not being useful any longer. no change - no need for me. go in peace and happiness... It's okay. This is a frustrating situation, and one I have obviously not rushed in any way, so I can imagine the repetition being frustrating. I see progress in areas where you don't, but I have really needed your insistence on ACTION above all else to remind me that there's no true change without it. Thank you. Once I'm able to take the next step with my wife, I will update.
tojaz Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 Oh no question she takes great pride in being a mother, and always has. I've said it before, but despite her work hours I would not want anyone else in the world parenting our kids (besides me). She is very loving & caring, and is always worrying and thinking about them. She comes up with great ideas for family outings & home stuff for the kids, and is diligent about school. Their bedrooms look great because of her, and they still rely on her as much as possible for love & support. I'm not excusing her work hours at all, but if there is ANY other area where she gives a ton of effort, it's in parenting. I have no idea if she takes pride in being a wife. I think she has always had an ideal of what being married should be like, and that she's always wanted to be sure that OTHERS perceive us as being happily married (and almost everyone in the world had until recently). But her idea of how to be a wife does not seem in touch with what's really needed to sustain a marriage, so if she DOES take pride in it, it's within a very narrow bandwidth. And I'm positive that once we started to have kids, she went into marital coasting mode. It's not that she doesn't care about me, more that she only feels compelled to care in ways that fit for her. How would you define her idea of being a wife? Once again just your take, I know shes not giving you much. How does it differ from yours? TOJAZ
2sunny Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 It's okay. This is a frustrating situation, and one I have obviously not rushed in any way, so I can imagine the repetition being frustrating. I see progress in areas where you don't, but I have really needed your insistence on ACTION above all else to remind me that there's no true change without it. Thank you. Once I'm able to take the next step with my wife, I will update. alright... (she says with a calm voice) - you are expecting change without the contrary action. in honesty - there is no action; therefore nothing is changing. tell her to get an apartment by her work. help her move her things there. start living without the EXPECTATION that she's going to participate. let her BE on her own... that's what she's doing anyway. accept it. she's NOT participating... so stop trying to make it look like she is when she isn't - and has NO intention of DOING THAT... then start living the way YOU want to - each and every day. get happy. get busy. have fun. she's had 6 weeks - and it's all talk, talk, talk - lies and more lies- mainly because her actions do not match her words. more talk will only create more reasons to show more evidence of more lies from her. SHE'S NOT PLANNING TO DO LIFE THE WAY YOU WANT HER TO! accept THAT! you are wasting your time and energy trying to change someone/some things that aren't going to change! you can't change her - you can only change YOU. we are not put on this earth to continue fighting against someone else's general nature... we are here to accept what IS truth... she's told you what HER truth is - you just want to change that for HER - you can't... her RESISTANCE is too high and she's just not uncomfortable enough. keeping someone comfortable does NOT invoke change. getting them damn UNcomfortable is what motivates them to change - consequences motivates many... but she's shown you - SHE'S NOT WILLING TO CHANGE. remember the formula for change? she has NO good reason to DO anything you ask. it doesn't mean she doesn't love you - it really means she loves herself more than what you have suggested to her. i have worked with MANY who have been down a path much more severe than yours - they don't get motivated until everything is stripped from the... and then there are a FEW - who simply will not budge! she seems to be one of those... from what you describe. you making her comfortable has NOT helped! you are wasting your time and energy trying to change someone/some things that aren't going to change! you can't change her - you can only change YOU. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage to chage the things I can, and the WISDOM to know the difference. she's shown you that YOU need to ACCEPT it - or YOU change it. you have work to do - work is action!
Author NickFeek Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 How would you define her idea of being a wife? Once again just your take, I know shes not giving you much. How does it differ from yours? TOJAZ Great question. My guess: It all starts with the Catholic service - love, honor and cherish. (She's actually said that several times since my infidelity, usually prefaced with "What ever happened to...?") Support your spouse's career aspirations. Be a good partner/teammate in things like housework, childcare, decision making, finances, etc. Give your spouse space for other interests - friends, outings, TV etc. Keep the marriage within the marriage - i.e. don't reveal secrets to or solicit help from others. Be there when a spouse is sick or in real trouble. Above all, do your best to help your spouse become the best version of himself he can be. Not sure if that's comprehensive, but it's all that comes to mind right now. I think it's more telling in what it does NOT include.
Author NickFeek Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 alright... (she says with a calm voice) - you are expecting change without the contrary action. in honesty - there is no action; therefore nothing is changing. tell her to get an apartment by her work. help her move her things there. start living without the EXPECTATION that she's going to participate. let her BE on her own... that's what she's doing anyway. accept it. she's NOT participating... so stop trying to make it look like she is when she isn't - and has NO intention of DOING THAT... then start living the way YOU want to - each and every day. get happy. get busy. have fun. she's had 6 weeks - and it's all talk, talk, talk - lies and more lies- mainly because her actions do not match her words. more talk will only create more reasons to show more evidence of more lies from her. SHE'S NOT PLANNING TO DO LIFE THE WAY YOU WANT HER TO! accept THAT! you are wasting your time and energy trying to change someone/some things that aren't going to change! you can't change her - you can only change YOU. we are not put on this earth to continue fighting against someone else's general nature... we are here to accept what IS truth... she's told you what HER truth is - you just want to change that for HER - you can't... her RESISTANCE is too high and she's just not uncomfortable enough. keeping someone comfortable does NOT invoke change. getting them damn UNcomfortable is what motivates them to change - consequences motivates many... but she's shown you - SHE'S NOT WILLING TO CHANGE. remember the formula for change? she has NO good reason to DO anything you ask. it doesn't mean she doesn't love you - it really means she loves herself more than what you have suggested to her. i have worked with MANY who have been down a path much more severe than yours - they don't get motivated until everything is stripped from the... and then there are a FEW - who simply will not budge! she seems to be one of those... from what you describe. you making her comfortable has NOT helped! you are wasting your time and energy trying to change someone/some things that aren't going to change! you can't change her - you can only change YOU. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage to chage the things I can, and the WISDOM to know the difference. she's shown you that YOU need to ACCEPT it - or YOU change it. you have work to do - work is action! Funny beginning! I'm sure this is frustrating. I appreciate you coming back. I do have a tendency to revert to making her comfortable, in part because I hope she'd reciprocate, in part because I fear her response if I don't make her comfortable. I'm only about a quarter of the way through the codependent book, but it seems to me already that I fall into that category to some degree, as I'm sure you've surmised. Let me ask you a question now. When you add up all of the action type things you said above and in your other posts, what one big action on my part do they add up to? Sum them all up into one action if you can.
2sunny Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 Funny beginning! I'm sure this is frustrating. I appreciate you coming back. I do have a tendency to revert to making her comfortable, in part because I hope she'd reciprocate, in part because I fear her response if I don't make her comfortable. I'm only about a quarter of the way through the codependent book, but it seems to me already that I fall into that category to some degree, as I'm sure you've surmised. Let me ask you a question now. When you add up all of the action type things you said above and in your other posts, what one big action on my part do they add up to? Sum them all up into one action if you can. your unwillingness to see her uncomfortable is causing no/little change. here's a big hint - YOU can't ever MAKE someone else comfortable/happy... NO ONE can make me feel a certain way... that's NOT possible... I DO THAT TO ME. to constantly attempt to control how someone else FEELS is impossible. the book you are reading addresses that. it's not my job to be sure everyone is happy - it's impossible. I DO ME... i let others do for themselves. that is what healthy looks like. the one big action you are doing is talking... but THAT will never get you change... without the action it will only look like lies and complacency. i don't think she believes that you will leave her. so leave. that alone will bring change... then you may have a chance to understand what love looks like when someone doesn't continually withhold the love from you. you deserve that!
Author NickFeek Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 your unwillingness to see her uncomfortable is causing no/little change. here's a big hint - YOU can't ever MAKE someone else comfortable/happy... NO ONE can make me feel a certain way... that's NOT possible... I DO THAT TO ME. to constantly attempt to control how someone else FEELS is impossible. the book you are reading addresses that. it's not my job to be sure everyone is happy - it's impossible. I DO ME... i let others do for themselves. that is what healthy looks like. the one big action you are doing is talking... but THAT will never get you change... without the action it will only look like lies and complacency. i don't think she believes that you will leave her. so leave. that alone will bring change... then you may have a chance to understand what love looks like when someone doesn't continually withhold the love from you. you deserve that! That's right. I have a horrible time seeing her uncomfortable. I have been in caretaker mode since forever, and the more I read of that book the more I see that. I still have so much to absorb from it, not to mention to actually finish reading it. It's very possible that much of what you've been repeating to me won't sink in until I read it all myself & really start applying it to my life. Right, well the answer I was going for is that all your suggestions lead to that one big action - leaving her. Events from 2 & 3 weeks ago really sent a shock to her system, because of things I said that she maybe never expected me to say. I'm almost positive that made her believe I might actually leave her, and that's why she's turned this corner & gone all positive & helpful (she was very helpful with the kids tonight). That book said that this is what would happen - threatening to leave a person causes that person to pull out all the stops to prevent that. On at least one level her efforts are working. But I'm so uneasy that I can't rest day or night (though I do sleep fine), so I know I have to make a big change. I've decided I'm going to tell her something like: I need to live my life in a way that's going to make me happy. I will never deliberately do something to hurt you, but if what I choose to do does hurt you or is unacceptable to you, then I completely understand why you could not live with it, and I'm prepared for that. Then I'm going to list for her a few small but key things that I intend not to live without, and see what that does. I figure as long as I'm honest about what I want and need, as well as about how I still do love her & am not trying to hurt her, then WHATEVER her response it will be a huge step forward. And I do plan to stick to my guns once I've said this stuff.
Steen719 Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) I don't know if the list is a good thing or not, but I would like to know from others if they have done it. I made a list today that I intend to give to my husband when I go home for a month (but not until then). I prefaced Christine's List like this: These are the issues I have with our marriage. If you have a desire to make this marriage viable, you will read these and consider them. I realize that you have issues about me, so please feel free to send to me by email the issues that you have. I do not want to talk to you about these while I am gone. I don’t want you to call me to give me your list. Please be honest about what you are saying. I do not want to hear later that you have chosen the wrong words to tell me how you feel. If you do send me a list, I will think about them seriously and when I see you next, if you and I have decided to discuss these, I will talk with you about your issues also. It seems like a good idea to me. I listed 10 things so far and ended by saying that consequences are not the same as fault and that we both have consequences for what we do. Anyway...I have said in it that I am unable to continue the way it is. He is trying to get me to come back in the bedroom with him. I am sleeping in another room. Yet, he is on facebook all of the freaking time. I have started the list and I want to be certain that I have said all I want (ha ha..within reason) and that I mean what I say. So far, when I read it again, I am Ok with it. But, I have a month before I go, so I have time. In the meantime, I am trying to not engage in fussing. Ahhhh, this is not easy. So, how long is your list? Edited June 3, 2011 by Steen719 wrong word in place
Author NickFeek Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 I don't know if the list is a good thing or not, but I would like to know from others if they have done it. I made a list today that I intend to give to my husband when I go home for a month (but not until then). I prefaced Christine's List like this: These are the issues I have with our marriage. If you have a desire to make this marriage viable, you will read these and consider them. I realize that you have issues about me, so please feel free to send to me by email the issues that you have. I do not want to talk to you about these while I am gone. I don’t want you to call me to give me your list. Please be honest about what you are saying. I do not want to hear later that you have chosen the wrong words to tell me how you feel. If you do send me a list, I will think about them seriously and when I see you next, if you and I have decided to discuss these, I will talk with you about your issues also. It seems like a good idea to me. I listed 10 things so far and ended by saying that consequences are not the same as fault and that we both have consequences for what we do. Anyway...I have said in it that I am unable to continue the way it is. He is trying to get me to come back in the bedroom with him. I am sleeping in another room. Yet, he is on facebook all of the freaking time. I have started the list and I want to be certain that I have said all I want (ha ha..within reason) and that I mean what I say. So far, when I read it again, I am Ok with it. But, I have a month before I go, so I have time. In the meantime, I am trying to not engage in fussing. Ahhhh, this is not easy. So, how long is your list? I think you have to try whatever you think works. And if the list is what seems right for the moment, do it. Worst case it doesn't work and you can try something else. I like how you have a plan laid out, and how you're being very matter of fact about your list. I also like that you're giving him the opportunity to make his list. And it's especially important that you made it clear you're unable to continue the way it is. I stumbled here in the last two weeks or so. I softened, and I did NOT see her shift to positivity coming AT ALL. I'm still trying to figure it out, and to adjust/regroup and come forward again. I just hope that whatever you do, you stick to YOUR guns about the bedroom. Yeah, it's hard to limit what you need to say. There are a million things running around in my head too. But you don't want to overwhelm him, so keeping it to a manageable list makes sense. I'm not sure how you'll last a month without that burning a hole in your pocket, but that will also give you time to get it just right. I feel exactly what you're saying with that "Ahhhh". Nothing about this is easy. Hell, I'm not even on the other side of this yet! I actually only have five things on my list. I'm sure that at least two of them she will find utterly ridiculous (and maybe they are in this circumstance!), but no use continuing to live like I can make myself happy in this situation. Good luck and stay strong!
2sunny Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 That's right. I have a horrible time seeing her uncomfortable. I have been in caretaker mode since forever, and the more I read of that book the more I see that. I still have so much to absorb from it, not to mention to actually finish reading it. It's very possible that much of what you've been repeating to me won't sink in until I read it all myself & really start applying it to my life. here's your disconnect - absorbing and reading are much different than DOING. Right, well the answer I was going for is that all your suggestions lead to that one big action - leaving her. Events from 2 & 3 weeks ago really sent a shock to her system, because of things I said that she maybe never expected me to say. I'm almost positive that made her believe I might actually leave her, and that's why she's turned this corner & gone all positive & helpful (she was very helpful with the kids tonight). That book said that this is what would happen - threatening to leave a person causes that person to pull out all the stops to prevent that. not such a shock that she began immediately... even now - 3 weeks later - she just getting started on doing a few things you asked for specifically SIX weeks ago. i still think she doesn't believe you. she's making small attempts to get you quiet so she can slide back into her autopilot mode - same as before. she's constantly ignored your requests and idle threats - she doesn't respect your word to be true. On at least one level her efforts are working. But I'm so uneasy that I can't rest day or night (though I do sleep fine), so I know I have to make a big change. you are contradicting yourself. which is it? I've decided I'm going to tell her something like: I need to live my life in a way that's going to make me happy. I will never deliberately do something to hurt you, but if what I choose to do does hurt you or is unacceptable to you, then I completely understand why you could not live with it, and I'm prepared for that. this choice of words is NOT clear. state the obvious. i'm not happy and i'm choosing to change our marriage, please move. THAT makes things perfectly clear. the way YOU stated it - is ALL and ONLY worried about HER FEELINGS. you can't control HER feelings. so stop that. it's backwards. IF she's hurt - THAT'S normal for any gal getting divorced. expect it. stop trying too FIX everything for her - she's NOT 2 years old! she's a grown woman who has stated her preferences with a vengeance. Then I'm going to list for her a few small but key things that I intend not to live without, and see what that does. :rolleyes: TELL HER WHAT YOU REQUIRE! use straightforward words. stop beating around the bush. say this - honey: this is what i need YOU to give/do for ME. if you don't DO x,y and z - i'm out, you got it? tell her what you require - tell her straight up! I figure as long as I'm honest about what I want and need, as well as about how I still do love her & am not trying to hurt her, then WHATEVER her response it will be a huge step forward. And I do plan to stick to my guns once I've said this stuff. get used to specific word use. all these words don't say much. idle threats is the way i read it - especially when written in such a passive form. and stop trying to worry about how she may or may not FEEL. SHE is the only one to control that - not you! you have TOO much FEELING - and SHE seems to have essentially NONE. she doesn't respect your word to mean much... so be specific - and follow through.
Author NickFeek Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 here's your disconnect - absorbing and reading are much different than DOING. not such a shock that she began immediately... even now - 3 weeks later - she just getting started on doing a few things you asked for specifically SIX weeks ago. i still think she doesn't believe you. she's making small attempts to get you quiet so she can slide back into her autopilot mode - same as before. she's constantly ignored your requests and idle threats - she doesn't respect your word to be true. you are contradicting yourself. which is it? this choice of words is NOT clear. state the obvious. i'm not happy and i'm choosing to change our marriage, please move. THAT makes things perfectly clear. the way YOU stated it - is ALL and ONLY worried about HER FEELINGS. you can't control HER feelings. so stop that. it's backwards. IF she's hurt - THAT'S normal for any gal getting divorced. expect it. stop trying too FIX everything for her - she's NOT 2 years old! she's a grown woman who has stated her preferences with a vengeance. :rolleyes: TELL HER WHAT YOU REQUIRE! use straightforward words. stop beating around the bush. say this - honey: this is what i need YOU to give/do for ME. if you don't DO x,y and z - i'm out, you got it? tell her what you require - tell her straight up! get used to specific word use. all these words don't say much. idle threats is the way i read it - especially when written in such a passive form. and stop trying to worry about how she may or may not FEEL. SHE is the only one to control that - not you! you have TOO much FEELING - and SHE seems to have essentially NONE. she doesn't respect your word to mean much... so be specific - and follow through. Yes I do have too much feeling. Always have. Not something I want to change, but I'd be happy if I could turn it off for this ordeal. It's just silly to say that absorbing/reading is a disconnect from action. So someone (let's say you) can read a book and learn a lot about how to take action, but that doesn't apply to me? I have found learning to be immensely helpful in almost every action I've taken. I'm not saying reading/learning itself is an answer, but it can lead to very real answers. She is scared. She's scared because a big part of her now does believe me. She's scared because she doesn't want to lose what we have, or to be alone. She's scared for the children. And yes, she's also doing everything in her power to put us back on autopilot. But she's scared because she knows it's not working. You can't just erase everything that's happened in the last year. No it's not all and only worried about her feelings. If I am clear & concise, and state what I need & want exactly, then I'm also doing exactly what you recommend. And if I can also do it in a way that doesn't come across as an attack, all the better. But you're right that I DO need to stop worrying about how she'll feel. This more than anything is what is crippling me. I am trying to do the impossible: change my life without upsetting her. I realize that's not realistic. I just have to be able to look it in the face and accept it before I can go there. Not at all sure what you meant by "you are contradicting yourself". If it's about the "I can't rest" and the sleeping fine, then you missed the fact that the "can't rest" refers to me being worried & uneasy while I'm awake, which thankfully has not affected my sleep. Nothing wrong or contradictory about that. It's one of the few things that has made me strong enough to endure this. What I know now more than ever is that nothing in our marriage will change unless we separate. It has to be done.
2sunny Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 to clarify - i was referring to the reading as: reading isn't going to bring change for a person who's just reading... IMPLEMENTING what is read WILL bring about change. that is called change. i wouldn't expect you to become UNfeeling... just become more adept at speaking YOUR truth and having a voice, using precise and pertinent words to convey YOUR specific message. no fluff = easier, clear message about what you need. that way you contradict less by getting HER emotions tangled into what you need. it does NOT need to be an attack! if you are speaking your truth - it should be a simple statement with a clear message. that's all. easy to do - harder to unlearn the old ways. I am trying to do the impossible: change my life without upsetting her. this isn't possible. she will be upset... to varying degrees at a variety of times... it's part of healthy adjusting to change... very necessary for healing and growth. i've done it a lot... most people do this a lot. it's also what makes me the most proud of myself... i used to like things like your wife - same, predictable and to remain the same. then, after a long marriage - i divorced. all the things i thought i could NEVER do - i started to DO. i am proud of all that i accomplish now - every day! i learned how to do them on my own - raise my kids, work, take care of the house, the car, the friends and family - and keep it all in good balance. life changes - if we don't become adept at changing and adjusting with those changes throughout the years - we really aren't living... we aren't being realistic about the fact that EVERYTHING is temporary. so to change should become EXPECTED. IF she isn't good at change - it's probably because she's not LIVING enough. everything changes. weather, family members die and new ones come along, cars, friends, residences, vacations. IF we always expect things to remain the same - we would be expecting the IMPOSSIBLE! even a tree bends in the wind so it doesn't snap! thanks for clarification on the sleep - makes sense now the way you describe it... good sleep is essential. what i'm saying is speak your truth to her... by giving her your clear message with precise words that mean what you intend to do... showing compassion and love, but not at the expense of your happiness.
Author NickFeek Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 to clarify - i was referring to the reading as: reading isn't going to bring change for a person who's just reading... IMPLEMENTING what is read WILL bring about change. that is called change. i wouldn't expect you to become UNfeeling... just become more adept at speaking YOUR truth and having a voice, using precise and pertinent words to convey YOUR specific message. no fluff = easier, clear message about what you need. that way you contradict less by getting HER emotions tangled into what you need. it does NOT need to be an attack! if you are speaking your truth - it should be a simple statement with a clear message. that's all. easy to do - harder to unlearn the old ways. this isn't possible. she will be upset... to varying degrees at a variety of times... it's part of healthy adjusting to change... very necessary for healing and growth. i've done it a lot... most people do this a lot. it's also what makes me the most proud of myself... i used to like things like your wife - same, predictable and to remain the same. then, after a long marriage - i divorced. all the things i thought i could NEVER do - i started to DO. i am proud of all that i accomplish now - every day! i learned how to do them on my own - raise my kids, work, take care of the house, the car, the friends and family - and keep it all in good balance. life changes - if we don't become adept at changing and adjusting with those changes throughout the years - we really aren't living... we aren't being realistic about the fact that EVERYTHING is temporary. so to change should become EXPECTED. IF she isn't good at change - it's probably because she's not LIVING enough. everything changes. weather, family members die and new ones come along, cars, friends, residences, vacations. IF we always expect things to remain the same - we would be expecting the IMPOSSIBLE! even a tree bends in the wind so it doesn't snap! thanks for clarification on the sleep - makes sense now the way you describe it... good sleep is essential. what i'm saying is speak your truth to her... by giving her your clear message with precise words that mean what you intend to do... showing compassion and love, but not at the expense of your happiness. Thanks for clarifying. We're in agreement on that then, that the reading needs to lead to implementation. Very hard to unlearn the old ways, but I see what you (and the book) mean about disentangling yourself from someone else's emotions. I think my direct statements have a better chance of NOT being an attack if I don't start out feeling defensive about how she'll take them. Your metamorphosis is really inspiring. Gives me hope that my wife can do the same, and that maybe I shouldn't be so worried about her well being. I like how you put that - "showing compassion and love, but not at the expense of your happiness." I think I'm ready.
Author NickFeek Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 2sunny has given you some really excellent advice and made some very wise observations. I hope you follow through on the separation. I agree. You know, in all these months, no one I've spoken or written to has said anything like "I hope you follow through on the separation." It's nice to hear someone put it like that. Thanks.
soserious1 Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) Nick, I think if I were in your shoes I'd get a great lawyer, I'd file for divorce asking for temp sole custody of the children, temp spousal & child support orders, I'd also ask to be allowed to remain in the family home, I'd cite her hours ,& that she's basically neglected & abandoned the children with you, despite your pleas & reports from the school about your child's increasing anxiety issues. Filing doesn't mean you HAVE to divorce, what it will do is force her to explain herself to a judge and either fix the issues or find herself an alimony,child support paying, divorced non-custodial parent who will be so broke she'll be living in her parent's basement. Remember, in issuing these orders, a judge would only be making official the lifestyle arrangements your wife has already put into place, the judge doesn't care about money, he will care about a child who's displaying increasing psychiatric issues & a parent who's ignoring them. Edited June 3, 2011 by soserious1
Author NickFeek Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 Nick, I think if I were in your shoes I'd get a great lawyer, I'd file for divorce asking for temp sole custody of the children, temp spousal & child support orders, I'd also ask to be allowed to remain in the family home, I'd cite her hours ,& that she's basically neglected & abandoned the children with you, despite your pleas & reports from the school about your child's increasing anxiety issues. Filing doesn't mean you HAVE to divorce, what it will do is force her to explain herself to a judge and either fix the issues or find herself an alimony,child support paying, divorced non-custodial parent who will be so broke she'll be living in her parent's basement. Remember, in issuing these orders, a judge would only be making official the lifestyle arrangements your wife has already put into place, the judge doesn't care about money, he will care about a child who's displaying increasing psychiatric issues & a parent who's ignoring them. That is GREAT advice, things I definitely would not have thought of. I'm already consulting with a fathers' rights attorney. Thanks!
soserious1 Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) That is GREAT advice, things I definitely would not have thought of. I'm already consulting with a fathers' rights attorney. Thanks! In order to get someone's full attention, to spur someone to action, you have to hit them where they live, her firm will NOT be happy if she's being sued for divorce in a case where it's alledged that she's neglecting her children due to her work for them, trust me they'll tell her that she needs to do whatever it takes to make this crap go away quickly. you will get action & resolution ..she'll either begin to work whole heartedly on the marriage,including participation in marriage counseling, family therapy or she will quietly agree to a divorce with terms that you give you the bulk of the money, assets and control over the kids. Have her served at her job, that will spur her into really hearing you loud and clear Edited June 3, 2011 by soserious1
2sunny Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 In order to get someone's full attention, to spur someone to action, you have to hit them where they live, her firm will NOT be happy if she's being sued for divorce in a case where it's alledged that she's neglecting her children due to her work for them, trust me they'll tell her that she needs to do whatever it takes to make this crap go away quickly. you will get action & resolution ..she'll either begin to work whole heartedly on the marriage,including participation in marriage counseling, family therapy or she will quietly agree to a divorce with terms that you give you the bulk of the money, assets and control over the kids. Have her served at her job, that will spur her into really hearing you loud and clear i agree! take charge of your best interest and your kids best interest! get busy!
soserious1 Posted June 3, 2011 Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) i agree! take charge of your best interest and your kids best interest! get busy! 2sunny, the advice I've given to Nick was from the POV of ultimately preventing this family from breaking down. Judging from comments from his wife that Nick has shared with us, I have no doubt that she also has a considerable list of resentments. My thinking here is that by filing for divorce Nick will force her into a marriage counselor's office where they can both start the process of being direct & honest with each other & hopefully find a way to rebuild a new marriage that works for them both. IMHO it would be a sad outcome for the kids to end up in a divorced home with only 1 fully involved parent,it would be great if these two could find a new path & can keep their family together. Edited June 3, 2011 by soserious1
Author NickFeek Posted June 3, 2011 Author Posted June 3, 2011 2sunny, the advice I've given to Nick was from the POV of ultimately preventing this family from breaking down. Judging from comments from his wife that Nick has shared with us, I have no doubt that she also has a considerable list of resentments. My thinking here is that by filing for divorce Nick will force her into a marriage counselor's office where they can both start the process of being direct & honest with each other & hopefully find a way to rebuild a new marriage that works for them both. IMHO it would be a sad outcome for the kids to end up in a divorced home with only 1 fully involved parent,it would be great if these two could find a new path & can keep their family together. I agree both about my wife's list and the kids. No predicting the outcome, but there's now no question in my mind that the best way for us to even have a HOPE of rebuilding something stronger & truer is for us to separate at the moment.
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