trippi1432 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 her body language is VERY disturbing... and having you participate that way is completely out of balance. it's only "normal" in the world of sexual abuse. Well, since this subject has come up again...and who is to know what is "normal" in the realm of sexual abuse and how those survivors perceive sexual relations with their spouses in the future...most of them can and do function quite well once they have dealt with the trauma. What I do see here that disturbs me is that you are comparing your wife to another woman that you cheated with back in September...that will only serve to enhance your frustrations because neither of those people are ever going to be the same. Nor will you ever be able to change her to be like that other person.
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 Nick - are you sure that there is not a medical issue that makes the act of intercourse painful for her? Trying to recall from the previous posts, but with the detail you have given could be medical or could be simply a left over notion from her childhood that sex is painful...listening to other girls or even her mom's/aunt's...whoever's conversations. It seems to be either a mental conceived pain or a real physical pain for actual penetration from what you have described. Also, while you have has experience outside of your wife now, you must look at the other side of that coin....it's not that someone else may be more suited for her, you are looking at the fact that perhaps someone is more suited for you. It's a well-known fact that women create a chemical bond with their sex partners, not just an emotional and physical one. Personal question: As far as you know, does she have a problem having orgasms with actual penetration? I think based on all our efforts together that it is a conceived pain. I wouldn't rule out physical, but for example when she's a little intoxicated her resistance is way down. Also there have been other sober times when we've managed to have sex without discomfort. I am convinced it's a direct physical response to the attempt of penetration. Her whole body freezes up, and when muscles are that taut it's no wonder trying to stretch them or relax them would hurt or be uncomfortable. Your last paragraph had a lot in it. To enumerate: 1. I've definitely considered there's someone out there better suited for me. 2. We have always had a strong attraction & chemical bond, which is one thing that makes this so difficult. 3. I can say almost without a doubt that she's never had an orgasm during penetration. The only time she does is during "grinding".
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 Nick - two thoughts from the recent posts: 1. I 100% understand how you're unwilling and afraid to shake things up even further now that she seems to be making an effort. However, it sounds like this is a pattern for her of dealing with your previous crises, especially because you are saying it feels familiar. The only way to break out of the pattern is to break it wide open and do what feels unthinkable to you - state very clearly how you feel and what you need, and that you'll walk if nothing changes - and mean it. I know it feels like hell to you, stating your needs clearly and knowing that it will hurt her to see that she hasn't been meeting them - I'm intimately familiar with this having just recently been through it. But it's the HEALTHY thing to do. You deserve so much more than you've been living with. 2. The sex issue -- she seems to be quite an avoidant personality. It doesn't surprise me at all that she claims there was no abuse in her past. However, what you've described is not normal. She's been hurt very badly by someone in her past. You can't fix this for her, no matter how gentle you are -- she has to want to fix it and heal herself. And you deserve to have your needs met. So there's your impasse. Thank you for understanding on BOTH points. I know I'll need to break it open. I really thought I HAD , and then she came roaring back with all this positivity. But yes, I can't live feeling like this. I just need to see what she's doing differently. So good to hear someone say that's not normal. I have been STARVED my whole adult life. I've tried to sublimate - no go. I've tried to supplement with porn etc., and that's just hollow & leads to nothing. Having felt unbridled passion now at least once, I realize more than ever that being CONNECTED to someone and THEN having sex is the best it can be. And that's what I want. BOTH connection and good sex.
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 not remembering - SHE may have stuffed it down so far that she's unwilling to admit it to herself - and you. her body language and behavior speaks for itself. that is NOT healthy behavior... and IF she's unwilling to face any of HER truth - you will never MAKE her do that. since she's unwilling - she can only blame herself if she won't change. you simply cannot fix what she needs to deal with in order to not live in fear and by avoiding. YOU need to find what happy looks like for YOU. given your evidence - i don't know any man that would be happy with that. her body language is VERY disturbing... and having you participate that way is completely out of balance. it's only "normal" in the world of sexual abuse. expect her to avoid further. you cannot FORCE her to face the fear if she chooses to pretend (lie) that this is normal. it's not normal at all. So my question is: Is there any good way to bring this up without it seeming like a direct response to last night? Or do I just need to go for it and damn the consequences?
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 Well, since this subject has come up again...and who is to know what is "normal" in the realm of sexual abuse and how those survivors perceive sexual relations with their spouses in the future...most of them can and do function quite well once they have dealt with the trauma. What I do see here that disturbs me is that you are comparing your wife to another woman that you cheated with back in September...that will only serve to enhance your frustrations because neither of those people are ever going to be the same. Nor will you ever be able to change her to be like that other person. I have avoided making that comparison for that very reason. But the truth is I have so little experience sexually that there's nothing else to compare her to other than fantasies. I wouldn't expect sex to be that intense all the time. I consider it more like a dialog, a good give and take. Sometimes it'll be intense, sometimes calm. But if there's always an open channel between two people, the odds of it being outright unsatisfying or bad go down drastically. Other than that one night, I've NEVER had the experience of an open channel like that. Or scratch that - my wife and I had an open channel BEFORE we were married, before we had sex. All the heavy petting or whatever you call it was great for both of us. That's what I/we based our hopeful marriage on, an incredibly strong premarital connection. The sex thing threw a giant & mostly unexpected bomb into all of that, and we've picking out shrapnel ever since.
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 Did I see this here or somewhere else? These is a good site: http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/ Also, the 180 degrees: [FONT=Verdana, Arial][sIZE=2] 1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 2. No frequent phone calls. 3. Do not point out good points in marriage. 4. Do not follow her around the house. 5. Do not encourage talk about the future. 6. Do not ask for help from family members. 7. Do not ask for reassurances. 8. Do not buy gifts. 9. Do not schedule dates together. 10. Do not spy on spouse. 11. Do not say "I Love You". 12. Act as if you are moving on with your life. 13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive. 14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc. 15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. 16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. 17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse. 18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing 19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around. 20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while). 21. Never lose your cool. 22. Don't be overly enthusiastic. 23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger). 24. Be patient 25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. 26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out. 27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). 28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. 29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write. 30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy. 31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. 32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared. 33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. 34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes. I can tell you that I told my husband today (if you remember, Nick...you read my message - thank you - that I was going to take him to his appointment for the 1 year post transplant and then my son would be home for a week and I would not say anything at that point. I am going home (many hours away) for one month (planned prior to this mess) and when I get back, I want to sell the house and get a divorce. He was dumbfounded! He said I was throwing away 22 years...me? I said, oh OMG, you told me you did not love me, had not been happy for 13 years and left me here by myself yesterday going to a non-existent family picnic and I am throwing it all away? I told him to get over himself and that I was done, no more talking. He is still trying! Quite a change. Please try this. I am not really doing this to save my marriage as I think he has really pushed me too far, but I do think this might help you in your situation. QUIT giving her any power. Take it back. If it does not work, you will feel better. I truly believe you will. My best to you. [/sIZE][/FONT] That is an incredibly thorough list. I can see what it's going for. I am going to copy it & sit with it for much longer, but on first read I can say I probably succeed at half and fail at half. Not a great percentage. Thank you for that last paragraph! I HAVE to take back that power & not backslide or I'm just going to be sick to my stomach all the time.
UntoldStory Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 (edited) So my question is: Is there any good way to bring this up without it seeming like a direct response to last night? Or do I just need to go for it and damn the consequences? I think you just go for it and damn the consequences. One thing I have learned over the past 1.5 years - there is NEVER a right time to have a difficult conversation. One of the hardest things for me while trying to improve things with my stbxH was his refusal to accept the real possibility of an impending separation and then, divorce. He would maintain that we were fine, and then that we were still working things out. In the midst of what I experienced as one of the loneliest, most despairing times in our relationship, he posted a picture of us at our wedding on his FB profile. I saw that as a complete denial and brush-off of my concerns. This is why I said I can totally relate to your discomfort with the positivity. Trust your gut on this. I think you will know when she's truly working to understand your needs and trying to meet them. Edited May 31, 2011 by UntoldStory
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 I think you just go for it and damn the consequences. One thing I have learned over the past 1.5 years - there is NEVER a right time to have a difficult conversation. One of the hardest things for me while trying to improve things with my stbxH was his refusal to accept the real possibility of an impending separation and then, divorce. He would maintain that we were fine, and then that we were still working things out. In the midst of what I experienced as one of the loneliest, most despairing times in our relationship, he posted a picture of us at our wedding on his FB profile. I saw that as a complete denial and brush-off of my concerns. This is why I said I can totally relate to your discomfort with the positivity. Trust your gut on this. I think you will know when she's truly working to understand your needs and trying to meet them. It's really helpful to see it put that way! The FB pic intention sounds a lot like what she's doing now. I think if I can keep that in mind, while also taking a look at the hard facts of what is & is not changing, I can keep a clear enough head to go for it. Thanks.
UntoldStory Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 It's really helpful to see it put that way! The FB pic intention sounds a lot like what she's doing now. I think if I can keep that in mind, while also taking a look at the hard facts of what is & is not changing, I can keep a clear enough head to go for it. Thanks. I wish you tons of strength and resolve and clear-headed logic. You really have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by simply being straight-forward. Good luck!!!
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 I wish you tons of strength and resolve and clear-headed logic. You really have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, by simply being straight-forward. Good luck!!! Thank you so much! I feel like I really need the strength this time around.
trippi1432 Posted May 31, 2011 Posted May 31, 2011 So my question is: Is there any good way to bring this up without it seeming like a direct response to last night? Or do I just need to go for it and damn the consequences? Honestly Nick...I think asking her about the sexual tension and what she can do about it would be going right back to requiring her to change....which you already know she is resistant to right now. Why not look at the other dynamics of the marriage that can be affected to lessen stress and tension on both of you...typically, the rest falls into place. This goes back to several posts ago where you were looking at what you could change about the dynamic, not what you were "requiring" her to change for you to be satisfied....right? Honestly, I get the fact that sex is a big thing for you in the dynamic of your marriage...it was for me as well being that my first marriage was not that satisfying. But really, if you want that passionate and satisfying love life, everything else has to fall in place too. It's not just the bedroom that she is not making a connection. Fix that connection first, the rest may fall in place.
Author NickFeek Posted May 31, 2011 Author Posted May 31, 2011 Honestly Nick...I think asking her about the sexual tension and what she can do about it would be going right back to requiring her to change....which you already know she is resistant to right now. Why not look at the other dynamics of the marriage that can be affected to lessen stress and tension on both of you...typically, the rest falls into place. This goes back to several posts ago where you were looking at what you could change about the dynamic, not what you were "requiring" her to change for you to be satisfied....right? Honestly, I get the fact that sex is a big thing for you in the dynamic of your marriage...it was for me as well being that my first marriage was not that satisfying. But really, if you want that passionate and satisfying love life, everything else has to fall in place too. It's not just the bedroom that she is not making a connection. Fix that connection first, the rest may fall in place. That's very true, and it kind of makes its way back to the other big elephant, which is her work. It takes up so much of her emotional & mental energy (not to mention her time), that I don't see how she could devote enough to other areas. Now I suppose again this is not the disease but a symptom. I just don't know that I'm qualified to uncover the root causes of all this. It seems like something for a professional or she herself to do. I'm happy to facilitate, but it's a daunting task even for someone trained to do it, let alone someone like me with no objectivity.
2sunny Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 =trippi1432;3430512]Honestly Nick...I think asking her about the sexual tension and what she can do about it would be going right back to requiring her to change....which you already know she is resistant to right now. she's been resistant to it all along - hell, she's resistant to EVERYTHING he may want. she's mainly thinking of herself in everything she does - that's why things are out of balance... she DOES what SHE wants... never considering him or the kids. but along the way - she lies- just enough to give him hope with empty words that actions never match. Why not look at the other dynamics of the marriage that can be affected to lessen stress and tension on both of you...typically, the rest falls into place. typically... but this is not typical. and since she won't get counseling to address the obvious sexual abuse - then there's really not a thing he can do. she's really leaving him with no options. accept the M the way it is - or leave and find what happy looks like in his future. he's done this ad infinitum! she's DOING very little to change anything... except her willingness to throw him a bone with empty promises. This goes back to several posts ago where you were looking at what you could change about the dynamic, not what you were "requiring" her to change for you to be satisfied....right? looks as if the only one that will implement change at this point is Nick. since she is adament she wants things the same... she's most likely going to be sure it stay the same as time moves along. Honestly, I get the fact that sex is a big thing for you in the dynamic of your marriage...it was for me as well being that my first marriage was not that satisfying. But really, if you want that passionate and satisfying love life, everything else has to fall in place too. It's not just the bedroom that she is not making a connection. Fix that connection first, the rest may fall in place. easier said than done. complacency seems a big part of this couple's life... and asking for what you stated seems like a pie in the sky right now. it's tough to imagine his wife might become hot, passionate and satisfying woman when she acts like it takes a crane for her to spread her legs for the man she loves. to be THAT reluctant about a loving act that is sacred between two people - just shows severe abuse... so much so that she can't remember it. ask your family member who is a psychologist - he can explain to you what that looks like when trauma is involved. it takes a lot of honesty and soul searching and action for the victim to turn things around. most of all they have to be WILLING to get to the problem, uncover it, not keep secrets anymore, no more cover up, have a voice, speak her truth and address and correct the harm done to her. the amend (change) would be to herself. that she could be free from the pain caused to her as a child. with that freedom would come a better way to enjoy sex. sex with passion and compassion for her partner. learning to trust. learning to enjoy and embrace her being a woman. embracing everything about taking you in as her man. with loving behavior for and with you. but we are a long way from her considering ANY of it - because she is in denial - so deep that she won't allow herself to remember it... it's THAT painful for her. hypnosis brings it to the surface with some - that could be considered... but i doubt she'll do that. ask your family member to explain the work necessary for these situations... and what it seems for for the mind that holds that trauma. i hope you'll report back what you learn.
trippi1432 Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 she's been resistant to it all along - hell, she's resistant to EVERYTHING he may want. she's mainly thinking of herself in everything she does - that's why things are out of balance... she DOES what SHE wants... never considering him or the kids. but along the way - she lies- just enough to give him hope with empty words that actions never match. typically... but this is not typical. and since she won't get counseling to address the obvious sexual abuse - then there's really not a thing he can do. she's really leaving him with no options. accept the M the way it is - or leave and find what happy looks like in his future. he's done this ad infinitum! she's DOING very little to change anything... except her willingness to throw him a bone with empty promises. looks as if the only one that will implement change at this point is Nick. since she is adament she wants things the same... she's most likely going to be sure it stay the same as time moves along. easier said than done. complacency seems a big part of this couple's life... and asking for what you stated seems like a pie in the sky right now. it's tough to imagine his wife might become hot, passionate and satisfying woman when she acts like it takes a crane for her to spread her legs for the man she loves. to be THAT reluctant about a loving act that is sacred between two people - just shows severe abuse... so much so that she can't remember it. ask your family member who is a psychologist - he can explain to you what that looks like when trauma is involved. it takes a lot of honesty and soul searching and action for the victim to turn things around. most of all they have to be WILLING to get to the problem, uncover it, not keep secrets anymore, no more cover up, have a voice, speak her truth and address and correct the harm done to her. the amend (change) would be to herself. that she could be free from the pain caused to her as a child. with that freedom would come a better way to enjoy sex. sex with passion and compassion for her partner. learning to trust. learning to enjoy and embrace her being a woman. embracing everything about taking you in as her man. with loving behavior for and with you. but we are a long way from her considering ANY of it - because she is in denial - so deep that she won't allow herself to remember it... it's THAT painful for her. hypnosis brings it to the surface with some - that could be considered... but i doubt she'll do that. ask your family member to explain the work necessary for these situations... and what it seems for for the mind that holds that trauma. i hope you'll report back what you learn. 2 Sunny - It is a sweeping generalization to determine that Nick's wife is a victim of sexual abuse, we only have his side of the story. In fact, many survivors of sexual abuse do not act in the way Nick's wife has acted and considering that her biggest problem is penetration, that seems to be more medical or possibly a child hood rooted fear of penetration being painful. Sorry if this is projection, but I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and my ex's have all been very satisfied in that area of our lives as I don't let it control my happiness or ability to give that back. In fact, I finally came to terms with it recently in therapy, but still never let someone else's sickness rule me in that area. Complacency here has been two-fold, one with Nick changing to meet her needs and not getting his met until he went outside the marriage to get them met. Hers, by standing her ground and continuing to do the same things in the same old fashion.
tojaz Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 Nick, going back to my train of thought and what you have shared about sex with her, it sounds like shes having a hard time putting herself in any position where she would feel vulnerable. (my take based on my own past experience, feel free to correct). Are there other situations in your lives that would reinforce this? TOJAZ
UntoldStory Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 2 Sunny - It is a sweeping generalization to determine that Nick's wife is a victim of sexual abuse, we only have his side of the story. . Agreed, Trippi, but it seems very likely if Nick is portraying things accurately. In fact, many survivors of sexual abuse do not act in the way Nick's wife has acted and considering that her biggest problem is penetration, that seems to be more medical or possibly a child hood rooted fear of penetration being painful. Sorry if this is projection, but I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and my ex's have all been very satisfied in that area of our lives as I don't let it control my happiness or ability to give that back. In fact, I finally came to terms with it recently in therapy, but still never let someone else's sickness rule me in that area. Also agreed. Sexual abuse does not have to doom one to a life of unpleasant sexual experiences and it sounds like you are incredibly resilient and capable of great self-healing. However, not everyone has these skills and capabilities and most people who have endured childhood sexual abuse do have lasting emotional scars, even if they're not debilitating in their adult sex relationships. Complacency here has been two-fold, one with Nick changing to meet her needs and not getting his met until he went outside the marriage to get them met. Hers, by standing her ground and continuing to do the same things in the same old fashion. Yep.
Author NickFeek Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 2 Sunny - It is a sweeping generalization to determine that Nick's wife is a victim of sexual abuse, we only have his side of the story. In fact, many survivors of sexual abuse do not act in the way Nick's wife has acted and considering that her biggest problem is penetration, that seems to be more medical or possibly a child hood rooted fear of penetration being painful. Sorry if this is projection, but I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and my ex's have all been very satisfied in that area of our lives as I don't let it control my happiness or ability to give that back. In fact, I finally came to terms with it recently in therapy, but still never let someone else's sickness rule me in that area. Complacency here has been two-fold, one with Nick changing to meet her needs and not getting his met until he went outside the marriage to get them met. Hers, by standing her ground and continuing to do the same things in the same old fashion. 2 and trippi, while I would not categorically rule out actual physical sexual abuse, I'm also inclined to believe it's probably not that. It could have been another kind of trauma, or, knowing her & her family, it's really most likely what trippi is saying - an intense childhood fear of penetration & being vulnerable that she's never dealt with. I will ask my brother what he thinks.
Author NickFeek Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 Nick, going back to my train of thought and what you have shared about sex with her, it sounds like shes having a hard time putting herself in any position where she would feel vulnerable. (my take based on my own past experience, feel free to correct). Are there other situations in your lives that would reinforce this? TOJAZ I think that, being a strong, intelligent & strong-willed person, she often uses her strength & will to deflect sensitive issues. I'm trying to think of exact instances, other than her reluctance to continue in individual therapy. The only thing I can think of relates back to her harassing boss. To refresh, he was her first law firm boss, and he was just an awful person. He verbally harassed her pretty much every day. After a couple of years of this, she fell into a depression - this was right after we got married. She moved on to another job, started therapy & medication, and after a few years really picked herself back up. She quit therapy, sued the boss, and won a decent settlement out of court. YET anything that brings up that period, or people from that period, still causes her intense anxiety. Case in point - when we moved to NYC she had to take the bar (she was already barred in NJ & PA). She did great, and went on to her current career successes. What I didn't know, and didn't find out until the final deadline was looming a few YEARS later was that she had not completed and handed in certain key documents, meaning she was not officially barred in NY. She'd ask me for help periodically, always with lots of anxiety. I would do what I could, but as you know when it comes to legal matters of any kind, usually the person herself has to do certain things (I can't be a proxy for a grown woman). So I'd ask her to give me X Y or Z so I could further the process. She'd get so "caught up" in her daily work that she'd let it slide over & over again. I'd even give her specific tasks only she could do, and check on her once a week. She'd either lie or brush off my questions. Eventually another year or two passed, and she came to me in a huge panic, saying if she didn't finally get these docs in, she'd have to take the bar again, meaning she'd probably lose her job. I said I'd do what I could, but that again it was really up to her. She got extremely pissed and resentful, saying I was being insensitive and not understanding and not helpful. I will say after years of this over & over, I WAS getting a little insensitive. It seemed to me that if she was a decade removed from the harassment - and during that time she went to therapy & "worked it out" well enough to quit, that filing a few papers (they were papers she needed consultation from people from that office to get) shouldn't be a problem. I had no clue she was still that traumatized by all of what happened. We did get them filed & she is now officially barred, but she has never forgiven me for the way I handled it. In my mind, she was so scared for so many years of expressing her vulnerability on this subject that she let all this slide until it was do or die. I'm sure I don't have the empathy she'd like me to have, but I was supportive through her harassment, depression, "recovery", lawsuit, and all these legal filing issues, and I still end up the bad guy. I have apologized to her for the times I WAS insensitive & short-tempered, and have learned to listen more and be more understanding, but I don't think she'll ever forgive me. Not for real.
2sunny Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 (edited) 2 Sunny - It is a sweeping generalization to determine that Nick's wife is a victim of sexual abuse, we only have his side of the story. In fact, many survivors of sexual abuse do not act in the way Nick's wife has acted and considering that her biggest problem is penetration, that seems to be more medical or possibly a child hood rooted fear of penetration being painful. Sorry if this is projection, but I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse and my ex's have all been very satisfied in that area of our lives as I don't let it control my happiness or ability to give that back. In fact, I finally came to terms with it recently in therapy, but still never let someone else's sickness rule me in that area. Complacency here has been two-fold, one with Nick changing to meet her needs and not getting his met until he went outside the marriage to get them met. Hers, by standing her ground and continuing to do the same things in the same old fashion. trip - that is what it looks like AFTER getting to a healthy place. it's not where he says his wife is right now. his W shows evidence that she's not willing to get to that healthy place you are describing... he can't help her if she's unwilling to change. he either accepts it - or he leaves. Edited June 1, 2011 by 2sunny
Author NickFeek Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 2sunny, regarding my wife's sex/penetration issues, my brother wrote the following: Many things can cause sexual dysfunction – psychiatric conditions, medical conditions, substance use, etc. – and the causes may often overlap (e.g., med condition exacerbated by psych condition). The separation of medical from psychiatric is not always clean or even desirable. Sex dysfunction in the psychiatric sense is characterized by (1) disturbances in sexual desire and/or disturbances in psycho-physiological functioning that (2) cause distress and interpersonal difficulty. Penetration difficulties, in particular, can be due to several things, such as physical pain with no obvious psychological components (e.g., due to an infection or structural abnormalities), a general aversion to sexual activity (for a variety of reasons), or pain that has a clear psychological component. Again, though, these categories are not mutually exclusive. Here are two diagnoses to keep in mind. (1) Dyspareunia: characterized by genital pain associated with sexual intercourse and marked distress or interpersonal difficulty (2) Vaginismus: characterized by the recurrent or persistent involuntary contraction of the perineal muscles surrounding the outer third of the vagina when vaginal penetration is attempted, which causes marked distress or interpersonal difficulty Based on your description (“causes her body to tense up”), Vaginismus sounds like it might fit (no pun intended). The diagnosis is of Vaginismus has several qualifiers, including (A) lifelong (present since onset of sexual functioning) vs. acquired (problem developed after a period of normal functioning), (B) generalized (not limited to certain partners or situations) vs. situational (limited), and © due to psychological factors (psych factors played major role in onset of problem) vs. due to combined factors (psych factors combined with med factors). Vaginismus typically has an abrupt onset (regardless of whether it’s lifelong or acquired). Once established, the course is chronic unless treated, meaning it doesn’t typically resolve on its own. The presence of Vaginismus does not automatically indicate past sexual abuse. It could be caused by a general medical condition (e.g., vaginal infections, endometriosis), a learned association between sex and discomfort (either physical or psychological), or sexual abuse/trauma. So abuse is one possibility among several. It’s not possible to list all of things that could cause this problem. For some, being raised in a sexually repressed environment may lead to the later inability to open up sexually (again, no pun intended). It’d be interesting to know, for example, if any of her sisters have experienced similar/related issues since they were raised in the same environment. It’s possible that an initial unpleasant sexual experience could cause Vaginismus. Certainly abuse should be considered. Here are some other things to keep in mind about Vaginismus. Sexual desire, pleasure, ability to orgasm, etc. may not be impaired until penetration is attempted or anticipated. Vaginismus typically prevents sex, or the sex is painful. The DSM notes that cases of unconsummated marriages are associated with this condition. Some women experience the muscle contractions during gyno exams; others don’t. Statistically, the disorder is more prevalent in younger females, females with negative attitudes toward sex, and among females with a sexual abuse or trauma history. Without an in-depth psych and/or med evaluation, it’s difficult to identify the etiology of the disorder (although the difficulty may stem more from the inability or unwillingness of the woman to acknowledge or discuss a very obvious cause.
2sunny Posted June 1, 2011 Posted June 1, 2011 based on what was written and knowing your wife the way you do - what does your gut tell you?
Author NickFeek Posted June 1, 2011 Author Posted June 1, 2011 based on what was written and knowing your wife the way you do - what does your gut tell you? I'm fairly certain vaginismus is the correct diagnosis, and that it stems from a repressed childhood environment, as well as sex fears/aversion, but probably not any actual physical abuse. I've decided I'm going to bring up this subject. I'm going to tell her I've been doing some research to try to help her & help us, and I wonder what she thinks about this diagnosis. My gut tells me that this will go down like a lead brick. My gut tells me that there is no possible way to approach this subject without her A. dismissing it out of hand, and/or B. getting pissed. Even my brother, who is rooting for us to stay together & work things out, agrees that asking her to help figure out her problem and then get treatment is not at all unreasonable, and in fact is something someone should do to save a marriage. But again, my gut will do backflips if anything like that happens.
2sunny Posted June 2, 2011 Posted June 2, 2011 tell me what behavior she has adjusted this week... i know you two talked over the weekend - what has the hours in the day been looking like? what changes are you seeing?
Author NickFeek Posted June 2, 2011 Author Posted June 2, 2011 tell me what behavior she has adjusted this week... i know you two talked over the weekend - what has the hours in the day been looking like? what changes are you seeing? This is what I planned to monitor all week. Short answer is no changes in action, schedule, etc. So far the biggest change has been in her attitude & demeanor. She's much more positive about everything. I have been taking advantage of this change by being a little more stubborn about things I need her to do, etc. These are very small shifts in my book, and have only made me more nervous & more reluctant to speak up, which I assume is part of her subconscious plan - i.e. stay positive & be nice and maybe we won't have to talk about anything. She has now said several times that there's no way we could divorce with what these kids would have to go through. Our middle child has had some anxiety issues lately. He's always been sensitive, but in the last couple of weeks it's been worse (almost didn't go to school today). He reminds me of how I was as a kid, which in this instance is not a good thing. BUT I digress. Her saying that about the kids makes it seem like I'd be callous to suggest we separate or to even make moves that would lead to that. I know she's scared, and this is part of it. But my soft (and codependent??) spot has a hard time resisting when she's like this. Having said that, I am certain she's not going to like our next conversation. With what I'm learning about certain of her issues, I would feel negligent if I didn't bring them up. The only way to save this marriage is to be blunt (not mean but to the point), and to not be afraid to speak the truth about our core issues. If her response is to deflect or deny or decide not to pursue help or change, then I will say right there we are separating. It's like she did an end run around all the talking we were doing, just bypassed the middle & end of our conversation - not coincidentally the part that was going to lead to some really tough stuff. Well she's going to have to take a few steps back because I can't let this eerie recreation of the past continue. I'll give her MAX until the weekend - and maybe not even that long - and then we are going to have to deal.
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