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Posted
Ah okay, I see what you're saying. And I agree I probably want to stay more than I care to admit sometimes. I appreciate you pushing me in this direction, and I can see how knowing her position better can only be good for both of us.

 

When things were good ... I'd have to answer the same way I answered someone else, which is that there's never been one large chunk of time when all things were good. There have been threads of goodness throughout, and threads of dysfunction. And in many ways the former & latter have been mutually exclusive. It really feels to me like trying to do microsurgery - fix those few things that never worked while not damaging everything else.

 

I really do wish EVERYONE here could hear her side, again a perfect example of why I believe counseling would be so beneficial for us. I don't want to be missing something she's saying, and vice versa. Aside from that, I have learned quite a bit in the last ten years, but have probably learned more than that in the last 10 months.

 

It feels like microsurgery because your treating the symptoms as they crop up, not the disease. Unfortunately in matters of the heart, often the "treatment" can also become a cause. Thats why i asked you to really try and look for what was missing for her, its quite possible that the places you put pressure could eventually worsen the problem and make your situation worse. Look at all the "symptoms" youve been working on, whats at the root? Whats the common denominator? She is detached, in favor of what?

 

You don't have concrete answers, because shes not talking. Leverage an educated guess. At least you'll have something to work from.

 

 

Thanks for sticking to your guns!

Always ready to be a thorn in someones side! ;)

 

TOJAZ

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Posted
It feels like microsurgery because your treating the symptoms as they crop up, not the disease. Unfortunately in matters of the heart, often the "treatment" can also become a cause. Thats why i asked you to really try and look for what was missing for her, its quite possible that the places you put pressure could eventually worsen the problem and make your situation worse. Look at all the "symptoms" youve been working on, whats at the root? Whats the common denominator? She is detached, in favor of what?

 

You don't have concrete answers, because shes not talking. Leverage an educated guess. At least you'll have something to work from.

 

Always ready to be a thorn in someones side! ;)

 

TOJAZ

 

I think what you're asking is less a change in style than a return to an older style. It all sounds eerily familiar. We've been in tough spots before - none as close to break-up as this, but in many ways much worse. And when the tough times were coming from within her, we'd talk often about what was going on, where it was coming from, etc. We never got close enough to any kind of root cause to bring about even a small revelation, but I guess we made enough headway for me to feel like sticking around was a good idea.

 

It's worth it for me to take us back there, if only to see if her now being older & in a different place might bring her to dig deeper & really want to know. My doubts are the following: 1. History falls heavily on the side of her not digging; 2. Her distaste for counseling has to be in large part because she doesn't want to dig; and 3. She has said quite plainly that she'd be happy existing at the level she's been at & is at.

 

My last real hope is that she'll understand that this time around is do or die. Failing that, we have to bring it around to the concrete action items. Failing that, one more attempt to get her to counseling with me. Failing that, I'll have to move on.

 

It's like my brother (a psychologist) has said: Love is hard, but it shouldn't be this hard for this long. You seem to believe, as I always have, that somewhere in there is a person she was always meant to become, and the proper conduit will bring her out. THAT, MORE THAN ANYTHING, is what has kept me with her, and those flashes of brilliance that pop out now & then. But what I've come to decide recently is the PROMISE of all that, NEVER manifest, is not enough, and the effort it's taken to get even THIS far has worn me out. This really truly is my/our last ditch effort.

Posted

 

It's worth it for me to take us back there, if only to see if her now being older & in a different place might bring her to dig deeper & really want to know. My doubts are the following: 1. History falls heavily on the side of her not digging; 2. Her distaste for counseling has to be in large part because she doesn't want to dig; and 3. She has said quite plainly that she'd be happy existing at the level she's been at & is at.

 

My last real hope is that she'll understand that this time around is do or die. Failing that, we have to bring it around to the concrete action items. Failing that, one more attempt to get her to counseling with me. Failing that, I'll have to move on.

 

It's like my brother (a psychologist) has said: Love is hard, but it shouldn't be this hard for this long. You seem to believe, as I always have, that somewhere in there is a person she was always meant to become, and the proper conduit will bring her out. THAT, MORE THAN ANYTHING, is what has kept me with her, and those flashes of brilliance that pop out now & then. But what I've come to decide recently is the PROMISE of all that, NEVER manifest, is not enough, and the effort it's taken to get even THIS far has worn me out. This really truly is my/our last ditch effort.

 

THAT is all about her. this is why things are out of balance - you can't assume to change someone else, only YOU. i really didn't understand you were expecting all the change to come from her... there is no reason for HER to change when you keep doing most everything the same - thus, keeping her in her comfort zone. people rarely change... and when they do, it's mainly because they are completely uncomfortable and have to change.

 

you keep trying to change HER - but really you aren't willing to even implement big changes in the home that completely require her no options but to change. and she's obviously not going to offer up changes when she likes it the way it's been.

 

if you aren't willing to change, you and/or your actions... it won't change. with every action or change of action - a reaction is automatically created.

 

 

it really boils down to you - you changing things, your perception of things or you accepting things. that's all it is.

 

to wait for her to get motivated to change- when she's is perfectly comfortable the way things are isn't being realistic. she's not willing to change even staring a divorce in the face. get used to watching her be uncomfortable if change is going to come about... change IS uncomfortable... but very necessary for progress and definitely necessary for growth.

Posted
THAT is all about her. this is why things are out of balance - you can't assume to change someone else, only YOU. i really didn't understand you were expecting all the change to come from her... there is no reason for HER to change when you keep doing most everything the same - thus, keeping her in her comfort zone. people rarely change... and when they do, it's mainly because they are completely uncomfortable and have to change.

 

you keep trying to change HER - but really you aren't willing to even implement big changes in the home that completely require her no options but to change. and she's obviously not going to offer up changes when she likes it the way it's been.

 

if you aren't willing to change, you and/or your actions... it won't change. with every action or change of action - a reaction is automatically created.

 

 

it really boils down to you - you changing things, your perception of things or you accepting things. that's all it is.

 

to wait for her to get motivated to change- when she's is perfectly comfortable the way things are isn't being realistic. she's not willing to change even staring a divorce in the face. get used to watching her be uncomfortable if change is going to come about... change IS uncomfortable... but very necessary for progress and definitely necessary for growth.

 

110% Nick! Its getting in the right mindset. Trying to make her change or creating a situation where she would WANT to change. BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

TOJAZ

Posted
110% Nick! Its getting in the right mindset. Trying to make her change or creating a situation where she would WANT to change. BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

TOJAZ

 

Have you read Divorce Remedy, Nick? This mindset/approach in changing yourself and your actions instead of changing your partner's is exactly what a large chunk of the book is about.

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Posted

I get what you're both saying. I have been changing on my end all these years, but those changes have been to accommodate her needs or lack thereof - i.e. to attempt to fit my life into her idea of life. It's going to take a giant earth moving vehicle to implement the "right" kind of changes at home, because of how set in our ways we both are - set regarding our actions but more importantly set regarding our coping/REactions. It feels like a monumental task to me for some reason, I guess because I feel like A. I have to do so much of the changing; and B. She is unlikely to respond well.

 

Last night we had "intimate relations" (I'm never sure how blunt to be on this forum). It was a nice first step after a long dry spell, but it also brought our problems to the fore in very clear ways. Is this an appropriate place to ask a very specific (and perhaps graphic) question? It may seem trivial, but I think what I'd like to ask about cuts to the heart of our problems.

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Posted
Have you read Divorce Remedy, Nick? This mindset/approach in changing yourself and your actions instead of changing your partner's is exactly what a large chunk of the book is about.

 

I have not. It sounds like a good book to read in this circumstance.

 

But this kind of clarifies a question I have about this:

 

How much change is one spouse supposed to undertake in an effort to bring about "ideal" conditions for another spouse? How much of that responsibility should be in the hands of the other spouse?

 

It feels debilitating & hurtful that I've had to work so hard for so many years just to get some basic needs met. And again, I have not always done this well, but I also HAVE done this well quite often. And nothing has worked.

 

Do you all think taking this "change myself" approach has a chance of working? Considering I've done most of the changing already, how much more can I do before I feel like I'm lost?

Posted (edited)

It feels debilitating & hurtful that I've had to work so hard for so many years just to get some basic needs met. And again, I have not always done this well, but I also HAVE done this well quite often. And nothing has worked.

 

Do you all think taking this "change myself" approach has a chance of working? Considering I've done most of the changing already, how much more can I do before I feel like I'm lost?

 

I know I'm jumping in here but this really struck a chord with me....

 

The thing is, the marriage is *never* going to work in the long run (and by "work" I mean both partners getting their most important needs met) if both partners aren't able and safe to be essentially who they are in the relationship. I believe in "change" when it's behavior modification for relatively minor things to make your partner happy, but when the change involves trying to deny or modify aspects of your personality rather than celebrating and honoring ALL of who you are, it's never going to work in the end. It may work for your partner and get them back to a point where they're interested in working on things again, but will end up making you feel like you're a ghost of who you are.

 

The question I had to keep asking myself (am still asking myself, but the answer is always the same for me) was - I am going to be happier being alone , or lonely in a marriage? I don't like the "alone" part, at least not yet. Hopefully that will get easier. But I do sleep better knowing that I'm more me now than I have been in my whole life.

Edited by UntoldStory
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Posted
I know I'm jumping in here but this really struck a chord with me....

 

The thing is, the marriage is *never* going to work in the long run (and by "work" I mean both partners getting their most important needs met) if both partners aren't able and safe to be essentially who they are in the relationship. I believe in "change" when it's behavior modification for relatively minor things to make your partner happy, but when the change involves trying to deny or modify aspects of your personality rather than celebrating and honoring ALL of who you are, it's never going to work in the end. It may work for your partner and get them back to a point where they're interested in working on things again, but will end up making you feel like you're a ghost of who you are.

 

The question I had to keep asking myself (am still asking myself, but the answer is always the same for me) was - I am going to be happier being alone , or lonely in a marriage? I don't like the "alone" part, at least not yet. Hopefully that will get easier. But I do sleep better knowing that I'm more me now than I have been in my whole life.

 

Hey Untold. Thanks for jumping!

 

This is what I'm afraid of. I know it's possible to make changes that will NOT compromise who I am, but history has shown it's a slippery slope in our house. I start down a road of change. I go too far to over-accommodate her. She accepts however far I'm willing to go (who wouldn't!). We have a period of stasis & comfort. I grow increasingly disaffected. Etc. etc. and here we are again. I'm just very gun shy about starting down that road again.

 

It sounds like the question you kept asking is the same one I keep asking. She stated last night that we are in "staying together and working it out" mode now, and seemed to say it as though it was a foregone conclusion. I made sure to point out that that HAS to include some changes, but I have to say I got a chill. It just feels like every other time we've been in working-it-out mode. Which means it's UP TO ME to make sure we don't fall into that again. I get the feeling she's rushing to this mode because it's safe, which only makes it harder for me when I have to shake up that safety.

 

I'm really just so exhausted from all this.

Posted
I know it's possible to make changes that will NOT compromise who I am, but history has shown it's a slippery slope in our house. I start down a road of change. I go too far to over-accommodate her. She accepts however far I'm willing to go (who wouldn't!). We have a period of stasis & comfort. I grow increasingly disaffected. Etc. etc. and here we are again.

 

BTDT. My question for you is, when you say you grow increasingly disaffected, why is that? Is it because you know exactly what you need, you're being yourself (as much as you can), and she's not making a similar effort? Or is it because the changes you've made actually involve denying needs? I think it's an important distinction but either way, what's clear is that this pattern isn't getting you anywhere. It wasn't until I basically drew a line in the sand and said that's it, I'm done making a pretzel out of myself to try to be happy in this marriage, we're separating and let's see how that goes, that he finally started to work on his own piece of things, but in my case, I know by now (after 16 years of being with him, married for almost 12, with 2 kids) that even if he did truly understand what I need, he won't be able to deliver.

 

It sounds like the question you kept asking is the same one I keep asking. She stated last night that we are in "staying together and working it out" mode now, and seemed to say it as though it was a foregone conclusion. I made sure to point out that that HAS to include some changes, but I have to say I got a chill. It just feels like every other time we've been in working-it-out mode. Which means it's UP TO ME to make sure we don't fall into that again. I get the feeling she's rushing to this mode because it's safe, which only makes it harder for me when I have to shake up that safety.
I totally understand this and have been there, too. Sounds like she really really really doesn't want to deal with this - and by "this" I mean "you" as a legitimate person with needs. Acknowledging that could provide you with a little anger to fuel your engine to keep pushing to improve things (or end things).

 

I'm really just so exhausted from all this.

Hang in there. No matter which way it goes, the fact is it will get better, because you know now you can't settle for the way it was anymore.

Posted
I get what you're both saying. I have been changing on my end all these years, but those changes have been to accommodate her needs or lack thereof - i.e. to attempt to fit my life into her idea of life. It's going to take a giant earth moving vehicle to implement the "right" kind of changes at home, because of how set in our ways we both are - set regarding our actions but more importantly set regarding our coping/REactions. It feels like a monumental task to me for some reason, I guess because I feel like A. I have to do so much of the changing; and B. She is unlikely to respond well.

 

Last night we had "intimate relations" (I'm never sure how blunt to be on this forum). It was a nice first step after a long dry spell, but it also brought our problems to the fore in very clear ways. Is this an appropriate place to ask a very specific (and perhaps graphic) question? It may seem trivial, but I think what I'd like to ask about cuts to the heart of our problems.

 

ask away! we are here to help. if we don't know what's happening - we can't help.

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Posted
BTDT. My question for you is, when you say you grow increasingly disaffected, why is that? Is it because you know exactly what you need, you're being yourself (as much as you can), and she's not making a similar effort? Or is it because the changes you've made actually involve denying needs? I think it's an important distinction but either way, what's clear is that this pattern isn't getting you anywhere. It wasn't until I basically drew a line in the sand and said that's it, I'm done making a pretzel out of myself to try to be happy in this marriage, we're separating and let's see how that goes, that he finally started to work on his own piece of things, but in my case, I know by now (after 16 years of being with him, married for almost 12, with 2 kids) that even if he did truly understand what I need, he won't be able to deliver.

 

I totally understand this and have been there, too. Sounds like she really really really doesn't want to deal with this - and by "this" I mean "you" as a legitimate person with needs. Acknowledging that could provide you with a little anger to fuel your engine to keep pushing to improve things (or end things).

 

Hang in there. No matter which way it goes, the fact is it will get better, because you know now you can't settle for the way it was anymore.

 

I'd say the answer to your first question is both. I can't always count on her to make a similar effort, and I have absolutely pretzeled myself in the past to deny certain needs. Sometimes it was a conscious decision to just see if I could make it work by compensating in other areas. Sometimes it was an unconscious surrender. Either way it never worked out.

 

As far as her not wanting to deal, it's is SO AMAZING how many strategies she pulls out to avoid dealing. The WORST of them is right now, when she's extremely positive & proactive, but only in the context of what she is willing to do. I don't think it's conscious on her part, but it makes it so hard for me to be "the bad guy" when she's being so positive. I think that's why I'm getting chills, because it feels like bringing back the old regime.

 

You're right! There is no way I'm settling for what WAS. Thank you.

Posted
She stated last night that we are in "staying together and working it out" mode now, and seemed to say it as though it was a foregone conclusion.

 

did you state that specifically... or was that HER voice? if it's NOT what you currently believe (and YOU may be thinking that she needs to earn the relationship balance by getting back on track) then YOU need to have a voice by speaking your truth!!!!

 

if that were me - i would have clarified her opinion right there by saying "no we are NOT necessarily in staying together mode - I AM TRYING TO SEE CHANGES THAT GIVE ME GOOD REASON TO CONSIDER STAYING!"

 

SPEAK UP! say what you mean and mean what you say. to stay silent is not healthy. to keep waiting but being miserable is not healthy either!

 

 

 

I made sure to point out that that HAS to include some changes, but I have to say I got a chill.

 

maybe because you weren't saying ALL that needs to be said...?

 

i'm reminded that she had sex with you - that is - at times - used to MANIPULATE - she may now be using the sex to make sure you DO what SHE doesn't intend to DO. think about that- long and hard... it's a tough one for men to think a wife would manipulate THAT way - but it happens all the time.

 

with holding sex is manipulations too... :rolleyes: so we DO know she does this as well.

 

i will tell you - healthy sex is NOT any form of manipulation. healthy sex is a great balance of equally giving and receiving... and feels effortless - and amazing for both.

 

It just feels like every other time we've been in working-it-out mode. Which means it's UP TO ME to make sure we don't fall into that again. I get the feeling she's rushing to this mode because it's safe, which only makes it harder for me when I have to shake up that safety.

 

why are YOU willing to be her victim?

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Posted
ask away! we are here to help. if we don't know what's happening - we can't help.

 

Okay. I'll try to be delicate if that's possible.

 

When we were first married, we were young and virgins. You may recall we had a very tough time getting started sexually. On my end I just was not being insistent & forceful enough, and crumbled too quickly. No excuse there. On her end, to be blunt, she was unable to open her legs wide enough for me to get between them, so our angle was nearly impossible for me to gain the right leverage to get in. Eventually she opened enough of course, but only just.

 

What I'm going to say next is really hard for me. That last line of the above paragraph describes how she has been every single time we've had sex in our lives. It's like her body has an instinct to close itself off, to DEFEND itself from the "intruder." Not only can she barely open up, she also uses both hands to push either my hips or shoulders away for at least the first minute or so, and after that does not often enjoy what we're doing. I can only try so many different angles, because I just don't have the room to adjust my body. It feels like a bizarre mix of being accepted and rejected at the same time. Really has always messed with my head. I have coached her to breath, to relax her muscles. I have gone slowly. I/we have tried nearly everything in that position. Nothing has changed. And she is not interested in or open to other positions of any kind.

 

My question is: Do these behaviors or "symptoms" indicate something that she as a person and/or we as a couple can diagnose & address? Remember I had asked her wayy back to consider sex therapy and that was just a joke. We also did that brief stint in couples therapy in '02, but we weren't there long enough to find her comfort zone to talk about sex.

 

Thank you, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.

Posted
Okay. I'll try to be delicate if that's possible.

 

When we were first married, we were young and virgins. You may recall we had a very tough time getting started sexually. On my end I just was not being insistent & forceful enough, and crumbled too quickly. No excuse there. On her end, to be blunt, she was unable to open her legs wide enough for me to get between them, so our angle was nearly impossible for me to gain the right leverage to get in. Eventually she opened enough of course, but only just.

 

What I'm going to say next is really hard for me. That last line of the above paragraph describes how she has been every single time we've had sex in our lives. It's like her body has an instinct to close itself off, to DEFEND itself from the "intruder." Not only can she barely open up, she also uses both hands to push either my hips or shoulders away for at least the first minute or so, and after that does not often enjoy what we're doing. I can only try so many different angles, because I just don't have the room to adjust my body. It feels like a bizarre mix of being accepted and rejected at the same time. Really has always messed with my head. I have coached her to breath, to relax her muscles. I have gone slowly. I/we have tried nearly everything in that position. Nothing has changed. And she is not interested in or open to other positions of any kind.

 

My question is: Do these behaviors or "symptoms" indicate something that she as a person and/or we as a couple can diagnose & address? Remember I had asked her wayy back to consider sex therapy and that was just a joke. We also did that brief stint in couples therapy in '02, but we weren't there long enough to find her comfort zone to talk about sex.

 

Thank you, and I hope I haven't offended anyone.

 

based on what you've typed - it's back to what i suggested earlier - her behavior shows severe signs of abuse. you can't fix that for her. and if she's unwilling to face her fears (which it looks like she is) then you can't possibly help her to get past it all.

 

no wonder... no wonder. but we really knew that already.

 

 

you can't change that for her...

  • Author
Posted
did you state that specifically... or was that HER voice? if it's NOT what you currently believe (and YOU may be thinking that she needs to earn the relationship balance by getting back on track) then YOU need to have a voice by speaking your truth!!!!

 

if that were me - i would have clarified her opinion right there by saying "no we are NOT necessarily in staying together mode - I AM TRYING TO SEE CHANGES THAT GIVE ME GOOD REASON TO CONSIDER STAYING!"

 

SPEAK UP! say what you mean and mean what you say. to stay silent is not healthy. to keep waiting but being miserable is not healthy either!

 

maybe because you weren't saying ALL that needs to be said...?

 

i'm reminded that she had sex with you - that is - at times - used to MANIPULATE - she may now be using the sex to make sure you DO what SHE doesn't intend to DO. think about that- long and hard... it's a tough one for men to think a wife would manipulate THAT way - but it happens all the time.

 

with holding sex is manipulations too... :rolleyes: so we DO know she does this as well.

 

i will tell you - healthy sex is NOT any form of manipulation. healthy sex is a great balance of equally giving and receiving... and feels effortless - and amazing for both.

 

why are YOU willing to be her victim?

 

That is exactly why I got a chill. It's as though she was tacitly trying to shut down any further talk or change. And I confess I let it happen with only a small protest. I was so shocked that she said that (yes, it was her words), that I froze.

 

I WILL clarify. I think I needed a night to adjust to this "new" approach she's taking, because it was such a surprise. I will tell her tonight what I truly believe about our situation, basically what you said above. I am AVOIDING HURT, hurt that both of us will feel but especially her.

 

I am not sure at all why I'm willing to be a victim. I usually don't even see it that way, or didn't until recently. I'm hoping the codependent book will help me with this.

 

I never thought about her using sex as manipulation. I can tell you that it was hard for her, because she couldn't get a picture of the other woman out of her head the whole time - she told me this after. At some point during our intercourse, she relaxed enough for me to more or less enjoy it. I was complimenting her sort of, by saying "That's much better. Thank you," a few times in a row. She told me after she wanted to shout out, "Yes. Much better for YOU!" It felt like necessary progress for us to be together, but it didn't necessarily feel good.

  • Author
Posted
based on what you've typed - it's back to what i suggested earlier - her behavior shows severe signs of abuse. you can't fix that for her. and if she's unwilling to face her fears (which it looks like she is) then you can't possibly help her to get past it all.

 

no wonder... no wonder. but we really knew that already.

 

you can't change that for her...

 

Okay that's what I was afraid of. And we just talked about that the other day & she again insists there was no abuse anywhere in her childhood.

 

The problem now is, if I say to her I just don't think it's working for us, she will throw back at me something like, "You can't expect me to just open up & be all ready & inviting for you after A. we've been out of practice for so many months, and B. I'm still recovering from your cheating." So I'm not exactly sure how to bring up relationship changes without getting this kind of blowback. Any suggestions?

 

I'm not disputing that both of those things may be true. But then what was true all the other hundred times we've had sex? It always seems to be something. This stands to get pretty ugly.

Posted
At some point during our intercourse, she relaxed enough for me to more or less enjoy it. I was complimenting her sort of, by saying "That's much better. Thank you," a few times in a row. She told me after she wanted to shout out, "Yes. Much better for YOU!"

 

ahhhh, the old "i'm doing you this favor trick! :sick:

 

loving behavior doesn't look like that. it is intended to be PLEASURE for both! it should feel amazing for her - and for you.

 

what are YOU doing to make sure it's enjoyable for her? what is she doing to make it enjoyable for you?

 

 

it's kind of a moot point given her truth - her experience and perspective have been skewed by abuse... she learned differently - what sex looks like for her. it's a LOT of work to UNLEARN what she learned.

 

if she's not going to face her truth - she will stay in this dark, evil place that is based out of fear by being the victim with no voice and not changing things.

Posted

here's a thought. have you ever had sex ONLY with oral for both sides? you do oral for her and she does oral for you?

 

would that be change? it wouldn't require her to open her legs at all...

  • Author
Posted
ahhhh, the old "i'm doing you this favor trick! :sick:

 

loving behavior doesn't look like that. it is intended to be PLEASURE for both! it should feel amazing for her - and for you.

 

what are YOU doing to make sure it's enjoyable for her? what is she doing to make it enjoyable for you?

 

it's kind of a moot point given her truth - her experience and perspective have been skewed by abuse... she learned differently - what sex looks like for her. it's a LOT of work to UNLEARN what she learned.

 

if she's not going to face her truth - she will stay in this dark, evil place that is based out of fear by being the victim with no voice and not changing things.

 

Yes it has felt amazing at times, but almost always compromised by a lot of bouncing off walls & barriers.

 

I am open to doing anything with & for her, and have done what she will allow me to do to make things more pleasurable. I'm sure I've given her pleasure often. I'm just not "allowed" to pull out all the stops so to speak. I have been concerned my whole adult life that I'm not even good at this. Now that night of Sept 5 showed me that I'm very good - good at initiating & listening & taking direction & trying things & giving pleasure. So I'm not sure I'll ever be able to comfortably go back to what we're used to.

 

I agree it would be a lot of work for her to unlearn. I'd further say that I may not be the right person for the job. There could very well be someone out there who's more patient & understanding than I am, and more able to tap into what she needs to break down those walls. Maybe NOT, but maybe SO. I'm just really not sure I'm the guy.

  • Author
Posted
here's a thought. have you ever had sex ONLY with oral for both sides? you do oral for her and she does oral for you?

 

would that be change? it wouldn't require her to open her legs at all...

 

I wouldn't say ONLY. We've done this before now & then. I know she enjoys it physically, but it seems the thought of it makes her uncomfortable, so the window of opportunity for me to give to her is not very large. I will say she does get quite a bit of pleasure "grinding" without intercourse, so I know that works well for her.

 

On my side, she has tried a few times to give to me, but it always seems for her like a stop along the way to something else - i.e. it never lasts longer than a couple of minutes.

 

It's like walking through a mine field. Somehow we manage to get across it often enough, but I always feel like I've lost some limbs along the way!

Posted

Did I see this here or somewhere else? These is a good site:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

 

Also, the 180 degrees:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial][sIZE=2]

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or

implore.

2. No frequent phone calls.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage.

4. Do not follow her around the house.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future.

6. Do not ask for help from family members.

7. Do not ask for reassurances.

8. Do not buy gifts.

9. Do not schedule dates together.

10. Do not spy on spouse.

11. Do not say "I Love You".

12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.

15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she would want to be around.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on

hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).

21. Never lose your cool.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic.

23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes their feelings stronger).

24. Be patient

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest

CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not backslide from your hard-earned changes.

 

I can tell you that I told my husband today (if you remember, Nick...you read my message - thank you - that I was going to take him to his appointment for the 1 year post transplant and then my son would be home for a week and I would not say anything at that point. I am going home (many hours away) for one month (planned prior to this mess) and when I get back, I want to sell the house and get a divorce. He was dumbfounded! He said I was throwing away 22 years...me? I said, oh OMG, you told me you did not love me, had not been happy for 13 years and left me here by myself yesterday going to a non-existent family picnic and I am throwing it all away? I told him to get over himself and that I was done, no more talking. He is still trying! Quite a change.

 

Please try this. I am not really doing this to save my marriage as I think he has really pushed me too far, but I do think this might help you in your situation. QUIT giving her any power. Take it back. If it does not work, you will feel better. I truly believe you will.

My best to you.

[/sIZE][/FONT]

Posted

Nick - are you sure that there is not a medical issue that makes the act of intercourse painful for her? Trying to recall from the previous posts, but with the detail you have given could be medical or could be simply a left over notion from her childhood that sex is painful...listening to other girls or even her mom's/aunt's...whoever's conversations. It seems to be either a mental conceived pain or a real physical pain for actual penetration from what you have described.

 

Also, while you have has experience outside of your wife now, you must look at the other side of that coin....it's not that someone else may be more suited for her, you are looking at the fact that perhaps someone is more suited for you. It's a well-known fact that women create a chemical bond with their sex partners, not just an emotional and physical one. Personal question: As far as you know, does she have a problem having orgasms with actual penetration?

Posted

Nick - two thoughts from the recent posts:

 

1. I 100% understand how you're unwilling and afraid to shake things up even further now that she seems to be making an effort. However, it sounds like this is a pattern for her of dealing with your previous crises, especially because you are saying it feels familiar. The only way to break out of the pattern is to break it wide open and do what feels unthinkable to you - state very clearly how you feel and what you need, and that you'll walk if nothing changes - and mean it. I know it feels like hell to you, stating your needs clearly and knowing that it will hurt her to see that she hasn't been meeting them - I'm intimately familiar with this having just recently been through it. But it's the HEALTHY thing to do. You deserve so much more than you've been living with.

 

2. The sex issue -- she seems to be quite an avoidant personality. It doesn't surprise me at all that she claims there was no abuse in her past. However, what you've described is not normal. She's been hurt very badly by someone in her past. You can't fix this for her, no matter how gentle you are -- she has to want to fix it and heal herself. And you deserve to have your needs met. So there's your impasse.

Posted
The sex issue -- she seems to be quite an avoidant personality. It doesn't surprise me at all that she claims there was no abuse in her past. However, what you've described is not normal. She's been hurt very badly by someone in her past. You can't fix this for her, no matter how gentle you are -- she has to want to fix it and heal herself. And you deserve to have your needs met.

 

 

not remembering - SHE may have stuffed it down so far that she's unwilling to admit it to herself - and you. her body language and behavior speaks for itself. that is NOT healthy behavior... and IF she's unwilling to face any of HER truth - you will never MAKE her do that.

 

since she's unwilling - she can only blame herself if she won't change.

 

you simply cannot fix what she needs to deal with in order to not live in fear and by avoiding.

 

 

YOU need to find what happy looks like for YOU. given your evidence - i don't know any man that would be happy with that.

 

her body language is VERY disturbing... and having you participate that way is completely out of balance. it's only "normal" in the world of sexual abuse. :(

 

 

expect her to avoid further. you cannot FORCE her to face the fear if she chooses to pretend (lie) that this is normal. it's not normal at all.

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