25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[tojaz]

Oh no question. Every step of the way, even after weak moments, I renew my pledge to myself that I will NEVER go back to an arrangement that would EVER pose any danger of this happening again. Though I may have never cheated before that one time, we've been close to this point for other reasons, and we've always backed down. NOT this time.

 

Good insights. I have asked her why she works the way she does, and why it seems like she's avoided me for so many years. Her answers to the first question are always on the surface of what is or isn't viable at work, so I can never dig any deeper. The second question she has no answer to, and usually doesn't even try to answer it.

 

I told her today (for the 800th time in our life - probably NOT an exaggeration) that all I've ever wanted was to be able to dig deeper into her - emotionally for sure but physically as well. She said I never let her express when she's upset about something. I have definitely had plenty of defensive moments, since I don't always do well with her hurting. But I told her she was overstating this, that I ALWAYS consider what she's saying - and like her if my first response isn't the best, I will think on it & come back the next day in a better state. I told her I thought she thinks I'm her father - who does not seem to be good with emotions at all. She didn't agree, but didn't deny it either. YET through all this she never gets past that first accusation to explain why she doesn't seem to even want to share the GOOD emotions with me.

 

Well Nick, what i'm saying here is that ultimatums and trying to influence her actions are a waste of time. You can ask for whatever you like and possibly even get it, but nothing is learned, there is no growth its just cause and effect, behavior and correction.

 

Even if she does give you the time you need, the sex, the attention etc, does it mean much if you have to file a request to get it? The disconnect is still present, shes just trying to create the illusion of a work/life balance.

 

Its time for a little detective work by you, not direct questions, because you will not get the answers your looking for. Truth be told she probably doesn't have them to give. Give her some line and see where she goes. Ask her about her job, how it makes her feel and why it makes her feel that way. Does it feel safe? Does she feel appreciated, accomplished, empowered? Possibilities are endless Nick.

 

Uncover these things s-l-o-w-l-y (as in avoiding the temptation to put her under the lights for hours etc, keep it casual, little nuggets you can fit together later). Figuring these things out will hopefully help you make your marriage and home life a more desireable option. She won't be there to keep the peace or trying to appease you, she'll WANT to be there. Thats what you really want anyways right?

 

All the demands, time tables, etc. are just going to put more pressure on her and shes going to look to get away from that (you)!

 

Been there, done that. >>> http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t233901/

 

TOJAZ

Edited May 29, 2011 by tojaz

[trippi1432]

Nick - I'm going to totally support the above post...please read the back-story that Tojaz has offered.

[NickFeek]

people don't get mad - or in a rage - if something isn't true. they only get mad and defensive if it's true. so i WOULD definitely speak my truth and tell her point blank why she's working so much- to avoid you and the kids. yep, tell her. the truth hurts - and walking on eggs shells has gotten you no where. so put it out there.

 

and your last post - you can hear her all you want - but she's not listening to you - and she's certainly not taking action either. she doesn't take you seriously. your word holds no merit in her eyes.

 

I have nothing to lose at this point, and I'd rather be honest & risk than equivocate & be stuck. I will tell her what I think.

 

I agree she's not really hearing me. I don't mind listening to her, though. I'd rather show her what real listening looks like so maybe she'll reciprocate. And if she doesn't, I can live with my actions.

[NickFeek]

Of course new perspectives are gained...it all depends on what stage of healing you are in...every book that we read...everything that we learn...depends on stages. You speak from experience from your own realm...I speak from mine on my own too.

 

I've been following your thread Nick from the beginning...somewhere in the middle of those 25 years was a place that you cared about...that was good...right?

 

Firstly, I don't mind other people's interpretations. I'm very good at distilling what works for me from others and what I figure out on my own. I'd never be so influenced in one direction or another that I'd take someone else's word as gospel. Heck, that's why there are 43 pages of posts!

 

I wouldn't say there was one place or moment in time. It's been more like threads of things that have existed through MOST times, frayed here & there, untied now & then, and pretty damn well snapped recently. The fact that these threads exist(ed) is really half the problem. If they didn't, I would have left long ago. But I keep getting (and/or wanting to get) pulled back in by the threads that are/were strong. The other half of the problem is the existence of these threads doesn't make up for the missing ropes of other things. Can we build on the threads? Possibly. Are they strong enough to withstand what needs to be done? Not sure.

[NickFeek]

Well Nick, what i'm saying here is that ultimatums and trying to influence her actions are a waste of time. You can ask for whatever you like and possibly even get it, but nothing is learned, there is no growth its just cause and effect, behavior and correction.

 

Even if she does give you the time you need, the sex, the attention etc, does it mean much if you have to file a request to get it? The disconnect is still present, shes just trying to create the illusion of a work/life balance.

 

Its time for a little detective work by you, not direct questions, because you will not get the answers your looking for. Truth be told she probably doesn't have them to give. Give her some line and see where she goes. Ask her about her job, how it makes her feel and why it makes her feel that way. Does it feel safe? Does she feel appreciated, accomplished, empowered? Possibilities are endless Nick.

 

Uncover these things s-l-o-w-l-y (as in avoiding the temptation to put her under the lights for hours etc, keep it casual, little nuggets you can fit together later). Figuring these things out will hopefully help you make your marriage and home life a more desireable option. She won't be there to keep the peace or trying to appease you, she'll WANT to be there. Thats what you really want anyways right?

 

All the demands, time tables, etc. are just going to put more pressure on her and shes going to look to get away from that (you)!

 

Been there, done that. >>> http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t233901/

 

TOJAZ

 

I read all of your post. It was really heartbreaking. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I can also see how there are some parallels to my situation, though there are some big differences as well.

 

Look, as you can see here, I've never been an ultimatum kind of guy. When I ever did give them, I never stuck to them. I can see what you mean about the pressuring, and the possibility of generating a false positive. But the truth is nothing else I've tried has ever worked. And that includes listening at length to her talk about her job and any other important things and/or worries in her life. I can be and have been a very good listener. What that usually leads to is a feeling of relief in her, followed by a period of calmness & relative peace, followed by ... nothing. More work, more avoidance, more neglect. In fact there are few situations when she actually craves my affection, and one of them happens to be when she feels she's in danger of losing me, losing my attention, losing what I do for her & the kids. I'm making it sound worse then it is, because these are not necessarily bad times. I just wish it wouldn't take crisis/fear/desperation for her to "want" me. Her complacency threshold is extremely low.

 

Yes, I would love for her to want me organically, without a construct to force it to the forefront. But I'm a FIRM believer that a pure cognitive approach holds NO guarantee of leading to actual action or change. I've been down that road in individual therapy, and it was labyrinthine & endless. It wasn't until I started combining the cognitive with the BEHAVIORAL that real change in me started. Yes, at first some of the actions I took felt forced/fake, but repetition of those actions eventually created new synapses in my brain, and those pathways strengthened until they became a mile wide. And because I combined that with a deeper cognitive understanding of myself, now that's the true & genuine me.

 

What I'm saying is, she needs a nudge. It's her nature to be satisfied with having what's here & not needing to do much. That may be fine for her, but when that "doing" includes affection/intimacy/quality time, it leaves me out in the cold. My goal is to use these small goals to nudge her into seeing how changes like this can be good for both of us, and to hopefully establish a pattern that, if repeated enough, will be woven into the fabric of our lives. I will continue to listen & be open to what she needs to say, even if she's saying she can't or won't do something. But I will also make a point of sticking to the short term plan.

 

Too many years have gone by of me either pressuring in the WRONG WAY (which is what I believe you're really referring to), or hanging back & letting things take their course. The first approach DID push her away & make her resent me. The second gave her enough rope to hang herself, so to speak. I think this new approach I'm taking is a healthy middle ground, and if done without aggression or resentment, will serve to reveal her true nature once and for all - whether that means she's been waiting for the right conditions to open wide, or that not even a crisis like this can compel her to do that.

[Ira]

I have mostly just been a reader of this thread and rarely post.

However I do want to say this.

 

You amaze me at the "effort" (for lack of better word) you are putting into your marriage. I know your not perfect However if things go sour don't ever think/say that you did not try. Your thought process as shared here is proof you are really invested in your marriage

[NickFeek]

I have mostly just been a reader of this thread and rarely post.

However I do want to say this.

 

You amaze me at the "effort" (for lack of better word) you are putting into your marriage. I know your not perfect However if things go sour don't ever think/say that you did not try. Your thought process as shared here is proof you are really invested in your marriage

 

Thank you, Ira. I appreciate you saying that. It means a lot to know someone can see I'm really trying to figure out all this. I can't claim to always be giving it my all, and I wish I was less conflicted. But if I can at least say I'm doing what I can to uncover the truth and find the best way for everyone to move forward, then hopefully whatever the outcome I will eventually find peace.

 

I haven't had one truly peaceful day in a very long time. I've spent most days in the last eight months scared, tired, confused and split completely in two. In brighter moments all I want is the best for everyone, and I feel strong & willing enough to work for that, no matter how long it takes. But to be honest, most of the time I just want all of this to be over, and in those darker times I'm on the cusp of getting up & walking out. There is no easy answer, but whatever it is I damn well hope it comes soon.

[tojaz]

I read all of your post. It was really heartbreaking. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I can also see how there are some parallels to my situation, though there are some big differences as well.

 

Look, as you can see here, I've never been an ultimatum kind of guy. When I ever did give them, I never stuck to them. I can see what you mean about the pressuring, and the possibility of generating a false positive. But the truth is nothing else I've tried has ever worked. And that includes listening at length to her talk about her job and any other important things and/or worries in her life. I can be and have been a very good listener. What that usually leads to is a feeling of relief in her, followed by a period of calmness & relative peace, followed by ... nothing. More work, more avoidance, more neglect. In fact there are few situations when she actually craves my affection, and one of them happens to be when she feels she's in danger of losing me, losing my attention, losing what I do for her & the kids. I'm making it sound worse then it is, because these are not necessarily bad times. I just wish it wouldn't take crisis/fear/desperation for her to "want" me. Her complacency threshold is extremely low.

 

Yes, I would love for her to want me organically, without a construct to force it to the forefront. But I'm a FIRM believer that a pure cognitive approach holds NO guarantee of leading to actual action or change. I've been down that road in individual therapy, and it was labyrinthine & endless. It wasn't until I started combining the cognitive with the BEHAVIORAL that real change in me started. Yes, at first some of the actions I took felt forced/fake, but repetition of those actions eventually created new synapses in my brain, and those pathways strengthened until they became a mile wide. And because I combined that with a deeper cognitive understanding of myself, now that's the true & genuine me.

 

What I'm saying is, she needs a nudge. It's her nature to be satisfied with having what's here & not needing to do much. That may be fine for her, but when that "doing" includes affection/intimacy/quality time, it leaves me out in the cold. My goal is to use these small goals to nudge her into seeing how changes like this can be good for both of us, and to hopefully establish a pattern that, if repeated enough, will be woven into the fabric of our lives. I will continue to listen & be open to what she needs to say, even if she's saying she can't or won't do something. But I will also make a point of sticking to the short term plan.

 

Too many years have gone by of me either pressuring in the WRONG WAY (which is what I believe you're really referring to), or hanging back & letting things take their course. The first approach DID push her away & make her resent me. The second gave her enough rope to hang herself, so to speak. I think this new approach I'm taking is a healthy middle ground, and if done without aggression or resentment, will serve to reveal her true nature once and for all - whether that means she's been waiting for the right conditions to open wide, or that not even a crisis like this can compel her to do that.

 

Nick, as you have said that you are open to other perspectives, I am trying to offer you one. I ask that you read my posts again and remember that they are not written for nor directed at her. She is not here to read them.

 

Pressure, mistreatment, affection are all based on the recipients perception, regardless of your well meaning intent, how she experiences it is exactly how it is for her. What you see as a nudge she may experience quite differently. I would say she most certainly is.

 

Bluntly! What you think she should do, think, act, feel doesn't mean a thing. Its what shes experiencing that matters here. After all, thats what your asking from her. You want her to understand what you need from the marriage, what you need to feel her commitment, to feel valued. She needs to receive that same respect and that same treatment. You BOTH messed this up, you both but your selfish desires ahead of whats really important. In essence you both have shifted out of the marriage, her for her work and you for your mistress. Very different situations but I would suspect the reasoning to be the same. A lack of fulfillment at home.

 

What is that? Well, thats what I've been hitting you with. Shes not going to tell you, she may not even know! Thats for YOU to look at. What satisfaction does she get from being successful in her career? What is lacking in the rest of her life that can be fulfilled there? Rather then defending your tactics and actions, take some time, put yourself in her shoes and really try and understand her side, this whole thread has been about trying to get her to understand yours.

 

TOJAZ

[NickFeek]

Nick, as you have said that you are open to other perspectives, I am trying to offer you one. I ask that you read my posts again and remember that they are not written for nor directed at her. She is not here to read them.

 

Pressure, mistreatment, affection are all based on the recipients perception, regardless of your well meaning intent, how she experiences it is exactly how it is for her. What you see as a nudge she may experience quite differently. I would say she most certainly is.

 

Bluntly! What you think she should do, think, act, feel doesn't mean a thing. Its what shes experiencing that matters here. After all, thats what your asking from her. You want her to understand what you need from the marriage, what you need to feel her commitment, to feel valued. She needs to receive that same respect and that same treatment. You BOTH messed this up, you both but your selfish desires ahead of whats really important. In essence you both have shifted out of the marriage, her for her work and you for your mistress. Very different situations but I would suspect the reasoning to be the same. A lack of fulfillment at home.

 

What is that? Well, thats what I've been hitting you with. Shes not going to tell you, she may not even know! Thats for YOU to look at. What satisfaction does she get from being successful in her career? What is lacking in the rest of her life that can be fulfilled there? Rather then defending your tactics and actions, take some time, put yourself in her shoes and really try and understand her side, this whole thread has been about trying to get her to understand yours.

 

TOJAZ

 

I grant you that we both messed this up, and that we have both shifted away from the marriage for different reasons. Mine wasn't the "mistress", however. That was unfortunate & definitely a mistake, but it lasted one week. I have shifted away at other times for other reasons, usually work or friends or fantasies, but it's never lasted very long. I always come back looking for my wife again. Her shifting away has lasted for a good ten years or more, and has gotten increasingly worse.

 

We have been together for 25 years. Don't you think in that time we've been through this before? Don't you think I've tried a hundred times to put myself in her shoes? That's one thing that's kept me around - trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. And no offense, but it's what BOTH OF US are experiencing that matters here. She is closer now to understanding what really matters to me than she's ever been, and yet when I ask her to fill in HER blanks she rarely has an answer that enlightens. I want SO MUCH to know what would fulfill her at home. But I have tried to come at this from every angle in every possible way over the last 19 years, and have failed every time.

 

Yes, she's been forthright in telling me ways I've acted that have hurt her. That it was my berating & harassing her about her work hours that caused her to resent me. That I don't seem to respect the work she's doing & the money she's bringing in. That of course my infidelity crushed her. That she doesn't think I try hard enough to be intimate with her. That I don't always listen to her when she's trying to tell me something painful.

 

I have listened to all of this, taken it all in, disputed things I thought she was off base about, and done my best to fix the things I knew she was right about. I have adjusted myself to her needs as best I can. During those good times she has been happy & contented, even when I have been lonely & suffering.

 

Yet no amount of effort or change from my end has ever prompted her to reciprocate, not in ways that really matter to me. She has shown a heartfelt desire for me to be happy, and a desire to want to do what she can to make me happy. But that desire has never manifested in lasting action. Fits & starts, yes - enough to keep me around. And then things peter out - back to a stasis she seems most comfortable with. And rather than complain & nudge, I have MOST OFTEN hung back & waited & hoped. And in every single instance of this cycle - EVERY SINGLE ONE BAR NONE - she has never come forward again. She has told me point blank she'd be content to live life like this, that in so many words she'd rather not be bothered with certain of my needs.

 

We are all responding to others' posts from our own perspectives. And while that can be and has been extremely helpful & insightful, it also runs the risk of one person seeing things starkly through their own prism of experience. You are assuming a few things that apply more to your situation than to mine. I don't disagree that the WRONG kind of pressure is damaging. But I do disagree that NONE at all is the way to go. I have tried that over & over and it has only made things worse. There is a middle way, and it's the way I'm going to take. Not because you're wrong - you make a great point. It's because what you are proposing I've already tried so much more than once, and in MY situation it has proven to be completely ineffective.

 

Remember, she's not the one who wants to leave this marriage.

[NickFeek]

Tojaz, having said all that, there's a good chance I'm still going to try it your way one more time, so I do appreciate you hammering it home. But I've got to go with my way first.

[2sunny]

tojaz, while your post is good - i must say that i see Nick doing that for his wife.

 

he does listen to her, he does ask about her work, while she goes on and on... and he seems to truly care about her and her life outside the family.

 

where things seems out of balance is from his wife's side.

 

knowing this doesn't solve his issue - but acknowledging that he has participated by being overly compassionate with his wife may actually be where the boundary needs adjusting. he's really compassionate- and she's not.

 

with that said... i do think Nick needs to decide on a HEALTHY boundary for himself... and stick to it. that automatically requires adjustments from his W. kind of like - with every action comes a reaction.

 

so, decide where the boundary is. decides on changes. decides what you are and aren't going to do. leave the rest for her to do - or not do. some things may just never get done anymore. or may get hired out.

 

either way - get and stick to a healthy boundary... one that helps you get happy.

[NickFeek]

tojaz, while your post is good - i must say that i see Nick doing that for his wife.

 

he does listen to her, he does ask about her work, while she goes on and on... and he seems to truly care about her and her life outside the family.

 

where things seems out of balance is from his wife's side.

 

knowing this doesn't solve his issue - but acknowledging that he has participated by being overly compassionate with his wife may actually be where the boundary needs adjusting. he's really compassionate- and she's not.

 

with that said... i do think Nick needs to decide on a HEALTHY boundary for himself... and stick to it. that automatically requires adjustments from his W. kind of like - with every action comes a reaction.

 

so, decide where the boundary is. decides on changes. decides what you are and aren't going to do. leave the rest for her to do - or not do. some things may just never get done anymore. or may get hired out.

 

either way - get and stick to a healthy boundary... one that helps you get happy.

 

That makes a lot of sense. No question my entire life I've been terrible with boundaries, especially my own. I've always been too eager to accommodate others, and then end up resenting them because they're not reciprocating - when often that's because I haven't been clear about what I need.

 

I'm starting to feel now the places I won't go anymore, and have been able to stick to those in recent weeks. Others I still need to establish, and it's some of those that may cause the real S to hit the fan, but it has to be done to avoid recreating what we've already had.

[2sunny]

That makes a lot of sense. No question my entire life I've been terrible with boundaries, especially my own. I've always been too eager to accommodate others, and then end up resenting them because they're not reciprocating - when often that's because I haven't been clear about what I need.

 

I'm starting to feel now the places I won't go anymore, and have been able to stick to those in recent weeks. Others I still need to establish, and it's some of those that may cause the real S to hit the fan, but it has to be done to avoid recreating what we've already had.

 

the book c0-dependent no more may help you.

 

my happiness isn't dependent upon what someone else is or isn't doing. therefore, no one can take my happiness away from me.

 

that is my boundary... but i have to tell others what IS or IS NOT acceptable to me.

 

 

my boundary is simple and clear - happy, healthy and safe! when it's not - i make it perfectly clear to others what will be adjusted to get things back in balance.

[NickFeek]

the book c0-dependent no more may help you.

 

my happiness isn't dependent upon what someone else is or isn't doing. therefore, no one can take my happiness away from me.

 

that is my boundary... but i have to tell others what IS or IS NOT acceptable to me.

 

 

my boundary is simple and clear - happy, healthy and safe! when it's not - i make it perfectly clear to others what will be adjusted to get things back in balance.

 

I remember you recommending that book, and I do plan to read it. I think I REALLY need help in that area.

 

My mood is still very dependent on other people. I'm attributing part of that to the current crisis - being in emotional turmoil tends to make people more sensitive & needy. But I think in general I've always been too dependent like that. And moving forward, if I'm going to be alone I need to know how to be happy without that dependency. If I'm staying in the marriage, that's a harder proposition in my book, but same thing.

[tojaz]

 

Remember, she's not the one who wants to leave this marriage.

 

Neither of you are Nick, otherwise this conversation would not be happening. If you wanted to leave in your heart, then you would have around page 2. You have found all the support and justification you would need. I don't think thats what you want though. You want to save it, all be it behind the guise of a position of strength.

 

Your right, every poster here is swayed by their own experiences and i am no exception. I do pick and choose the threads I get involved in pretty closely though and if I'm wielding my LS 2x4 on someone, then it is something I feel pretty strongly about. So I will challenge people to either prove me right or prove me wrong, I'm good either way so long as it helps.

 

So I'm laying it down again, after 10 years of putting yourself in her shoes, what have you found out? What have you learned? What changed?

 

What was your dynamic when things where good?

 

Your right, how you both are experiencing things matters, but I have your side of the story, im not talking to her trying to get her to understand yours. Your looking for change and action from her, an important part of that is how she is perceiving these attempts and why she resists. Im not saying no pressure, you have every right to be treated the way you need to be, and im not saying shes being fair to you either, far from it. Its just a lot easier to elicit change when you know why things are the way they are.

 

TOJAZ

[soserious1]

Hi Nick

 

First as I figure you could probably use some cheer right about now.

 

I've been reading what you've written carefully and have some random thoughts.

 

I'm confused, do you guys have 2 kids or 3? you've got a 2 yr old, you've said the marriage has been poor and getting worse for 10 yrs, was the 2 yr old a planned pregnancy on our wife's part? Any chance that she's been dealing with an untreated postpartum depression.. or worse guilt because she

didn't really want a 3rd baby?

 

Also you say that your wife has said she doesnt feel you respect her, her work or the money she earns.. this is important in that it gives clues to what are core or trigger values to her.. for some people feeling that they aren't taken seriously is like issuing them a calling card to a duel at dawn.

 

Is it possible that your wife struggles with anger management & has developed the maladaptive coping skill of shutting down & not talking

when she's upset because she learned, probably as a child that expressing

anger/strong negative emotions would get her into trouble?

 

Instead of trying to force her to cook,clean or do more childcare tasks, what do you think would happen if you approached her by acknowledging that her

work is very important, that the $ she earns are vital for the family but that

this comes with the tradeoff that her hours limit the direct parental involvement she can have.. do this in a matter of fact manner then ask her

what thoughts she has on creative ways that she can connect more with the kids and you... these ways don't need to be traditional ie: occasionally having a meal with all of you either at her office or in a nearby park for a picnic, can you guys occasionally get a sitter, you can meet her in the evening

at a place halfway between your home and her office for date night.

 

Before she goes to bed at night can she lay out the kids clothing, set places at the breakfast table for them,check the backpacks, permission slips, maybe tuck a nice note into their bags?

 

Maybe the key to all this lies in the fact that rightly or wrongly she truly doesn't feel respected? If this is the case arguing and fighting because she

doesn't work a normal 40 hour week is going to just fuel more negative feelings -more shutting down from her.

 

What do you think would happen if you acknowledged the value of her work

but simply stated that the household needed to develop alternative ways of making sure everybody felt respected,connected and loved

 

Instead of asking her to give more traditional wife/mother kinds of caregiving

why not ask her to join you in thinking outside the box?

[NickFeek]

Neither of you are Nick, otherwise this conversation would not be happening. If you wanted to leave in your heart, then you would have around page 2. You have found all the support and justification you would need. I don't think thats what you want though. You want to save it, all be it behind the guise of a position of strength.

 

Your right, every poster here is swayed by their own experiences and i am no exception. I do pick and choose the threads I get involved in pretty closely though and if I'm wielding my LS 2x4 on someone, then it is something I feel pretty strongly about. So I will challenge people to either prove me right or prove me wrong, I'm good either way so long as it helps.

 

So I'm laying it down again, after 10 years of putting yourself in her shoes, what have you found out? What have you learned? What changed?

 

What was your dynamic when things where good?

 

Your right, how you both are experiencing things matters, but I have your side of the story, im not talking to her trying to get her to understand yours. Your looking for change and action from her, an important part of that is how she is perceiving these attempts and why she resists. Im not saying no pressure, you have every right to be treated the way you need to be, and im not saying shes being fair to you either, far from it. Its just a lot easier to elicit change when you know why things are the way they are.

 

TOJAZ

 

Ah okay, I see what you're saying. And I agree I probably want to stay more than I care to admit sometimes. I appreciate you pushing me in this direction, and I can see how knowing her position better can only be good for both of us.

 

When things were good ... I'd have to answer the same way I answered someone else, which is that there's never been one large chunk of time when all things were good. There have been threads of goodness throughout, and threads of dysfunction. And in many ways the former & latter have been mutually exclusive. It really feels to me like trying to do microsurgery - fix those few things that never worked while not damaging everything else.

 

I really do wish EVERYONE here could hear her side, again a perfect example of why I believe counseling would be so beneficial for us. I don't want to be missing something she's saying, and vice versa. Aside from that, I have learned quite a bit in the last ten years, but have probably learned more than that in the last 10 months.

 

Thanks for sticking to your guns!

[NickFeek]

Hi Nick

 

First as I figure you could probably use some cheer right about now.

 

I've been reading what you've written carefully and have some random thoughts.

 

I'm confused, do you guys have 2 kids or 3? you've got a 2 yr old, you've said the marriage has been poor and getting worse for 10 yrs, was the 2 yr old a planned pregnancy on our wife's part? Any chance that she's been dealing with an untreated postpartum depression.. or worse guilt because she

didn't really want a 3rd baby?

 

Also you say that your wife has said she doesnt feel you respect her, her work or the money she earns.. this is important in that it gives clues to what are core or trigger values to her.. for some people feeling that they aren't taken seriously is like issuing them a calling card to a duel at dawn.

 

Is it possible that your wife struggles with anger management & has developed the maladaptive coping skill of shutting down & not talking

when she's upset because she learned, probably as a child that expressing

anger/strong negative emotions would get her into trouble?

 

Instead of trying to force her to cook,clean or do more childcare tasks, what do you think would happen if you approached her by acknowledging that her

work is very important, that the $ she earns are vital for the family but that

this comes with the tradeoff that her hours limit the direct parental involvement she can have.. do this in a matter of fact manner then ask her

what thoughts she has on creative ways that she can connect more with the kids and you... these ways don't need to be traditional ie: occasionally having a meal with all of you either at her office or in a nearby park for a picnic, can you guys occasionally get a sitter, you can meet her in the evening

at a place halfway between your home and her office for date night.

 

Before she goes to bed at night can she lay out the kids clothing, set places at the breakfast table for them,check the backpacks, permission slips, maybe tuck a nice note into their bags?

 

Maybe the key to all this lies in the fact that rightly or wrongly she truly doesn't feel respected? If this is the case arguing and fighting because she

doesn't work a normal 40 hour week is going to just fuel more negative feelings -more shutting down from her.

 

What do you think would happen if you acknowledged the value of her work

but simply stated that the household needed to develop alternative ways of making sure everybody felt respected,connected and loved

 

Instead of asking her to give more traditional wife/mother kinds of caregiving

why not ask her to join you in thinking outside the box?

 

Cheer sounds good to me!

 

We have an 11 year old girl, an almost 7 boy, and a two year old boy (unplanned, but very welcome by both of us). I would not be surprised if she's dealing with untreated depression, but I'd say it is broader and longer lasting that post partum. I've told her often over the last 15 years or so that I think she should be getting treatment of some kind. She was in therapy and on Paxil in the mid 90s, and then just dropped both. So much of what I see seems like untreated depression, and I can recognize it well because I've been through it, as have so many people I know.

 

You're right that I'd been pushing her away quite a bit with my responses to her work. I've only recently understood that work is much nearer to her core than I realized, and I've adjusted my behavior since then. I've ALWAYS respected her amazing legal & writing skills, and her ability to tackle multiple projects at once. It's really the time management that I've had a problem with from the get-go.

 

Wow, I think you really hit on something regarding my wife's emotional life. She absolutely comes from a family that does not respect expressing negative emotions - her father in particular (whom she very much takes after) is stoic beyond tolerance when it comes to negativity.

 

I would definitely like to institute regular dinners etc. As far as the other stuff goes, once again I'm not looking for anything traditional. We have both been fine being outside the box. I don't mind the amount of house & child work she does. I just wish she'd be home more in general. And our school prep is fairly well divided too. I take care of evening tasks, and she does the mornings (except that I take them to school).

 

What do you think would happen if you acknowledged the value of her work

but simply stated that the household needed to develop alternative ways of making sure everybody felt respected,connected and loved

This is what I've been doing for years, and especially lately. I admit my frustration & impatience used to really get the better of me quite often, but even amidst that, I would emphasize that it was the home life I was worried about - the interpersonal portion for ALL of us - and not the work she was doing. I've gotten much better at conveying how much I do respect her work. But the bottom line is there's no way for her to adequately address what her kids & husband are missing in as little time as she spends at home. She tries so hard to compensate, but only a superhuman could do it in her position. Unless she's willing to modify even a bit her work schedule, I can't imagine her being able to sustain a healthy involvement here at home without collapsing from the pressure.

 

There ARE other ways we can find to compensate, I guess, but again even those require time. And that time has to include her being able to decompress from work, which is so hard these days when everyone has a Blackberry or iPhone. Case in point (I may have said this way back): we took a trip to Boston one year ago. The last two days were wonderful, and I attribute that COMPLETELY to the fact that she decompressed much more quickly than usual because she forgot her Blackberry charger and had no access to work emails. She still did work every day of our trip, but she was not as consumed. I had hoped she'd see this as a sign or a test case for her to be more like this in real life, but things have gotten SO increasingly worse in the last year that it's like we were two different people back then.

[Steen719]

I remember you recommending that book, and I do plan to read it. I think I REALLY need help in that area.

 

My mood is still very dependent on other people. I'm attributing part of that to the current crisis - being in emotional turmoil tends to make people more sensitive & needy. But I think in general I've always been too dependent like that. And moving forward, if I'm going to be alone I need to know how to be happy without that dependency. If I'm staying in the marriage, that's a harder proposition in my book, but same thing.

 

Nick,

I just found this today and it struck a note with me. I am also feeling very dependent right now. My marriage of almost 22 years looks like it is going down the tubes and I have sat here today...well worked some, also..but I have felt so needy. I have talked to friends and family (a few, anyway), trying to feel better. Oh wow, I even said to them "I am sorry for being so needy". You have young kids which is hard, but it does divert some of your attention.

My husband cheated on me with an old girlfriend back in 1997 when we had been married for 8 years. My son was 7 and I made the decision to stay with him because of him. I love him more than I hated what my husband did. We have stayed together; it has been ok..not great, I would say, but not bad. Not enough sex, mostly my fault, truthfully. I had a hysterectomy, no hormones, maybe residual resentment. Fast forward to last year. Long story, but my husband became ill after treatment for Hep C and he was quite ill last year. He had a liver transplant last June. It really hurt us financially..refinanced, home equity, had to move temporarily and have a son in college. I tool care of him, went to all of these appointments, moved for transplant, etc. In January, he started on Facebook all of the time; he is not working and I work from home. He started acting squirrelly and I looked at his phone records...oh yes, I know, I'm awful. It wouldn't be a problem if there was no problem. I would not care if he did this with me. Anyway, I found a number called a lot, confronted him, he got mad at me and he called her to warn her about me knowing. I never called the first one, I have no idea why he thought I would call her. He said it was a friend, etc, etc. and tells me yesterday that he has not been happy in 13 years and is not in love with me. He went to a family picnic with his family 4 hours away today for the holiday. I feel so betrayed. Nice repayment, huh? Holy crap, I took care of this man, have worked and worked to make enough money to keep us afloat and he is not in love with me? Is he 21? He is 57 years old.

I have cried and cried and cannot believe that I am here again. Crap. If you want your marriage to last, you had better find some way to make sure your wife knows you love her and never, ever give her reason to think you have other interests.

On a more positive side, the last time this happened, I did agree to not leave him when he asked and told me how sorry he was. Here is the positive part. I actually was starting to feel better about myself when that happened. I think there is a light on the horizon if I can get past this darkness. I am very sorry you feel needy and dependent. I know how that feels. I don't know how I would have made it through today if I had not talked to people who love me.

I wish you the best. If it helps, I think you sound like a earnest person who is willing to compromise and that will help you.

Best to you

[2sunny]

you have just had a HOLIDAY weekend. what was the three day holiday like in your home?

 

please describe in detail what you two have been DOING to make sure the weekend went well. do not list empty words that weren't backed up with congruent action.

 

list for us what you two have been doing to make sure each of you understands the other as their priority and what you are doing together that shows loving actions and behavior toward the other.

 

please leave out long, empty promises and conversations - we are wanting evidence of changes in your marriage.

[2sunny]

Nick,

I just found this today and it struck a note with me. I am also feeling very dependent right now. My marriage of almost 22 years looks like it is going down the tubes and I have sat here today...well worked some, also..but I have felt so needy. I have talked to friends and family (a few, anyway), trying to feel better. Oh wow, I even said to them "I am sorry for being so needy". You have young kids which is hard, but it does divert some of your attention.

My husband cheated on me with an old girlfriend back in 1997 when we had been married for 8 years. My son was 7 and I made the decision to stay with him because of him. I love him more than I hated what my husband did. We have stayed together; it has been ok..not great, I would say, but not bad. Not enough sex, mostly my fault, truthfully. I had a hysterectomy, no hormones, maybe residual resentment. Fast forward to last year. Long story, but my husband became ill after treatment for Hep C and he was quite ill last year. He had a liver transplant last June. It really hurt us financially..refinanced, home equity, had to move temporarily and have a son in college. I tool care of him, went to all of these appointments, moved for transplant, etc. In January, he started on Facebook all of the time; he is not working and I work from home. He started acting squirrelly and I looked at his phone records...oh yes, I know, I'm awful. It wouldn't be a problem if there was no problem. I would not care if he did this with me. Anyway, I found a number called a lot, confronted him, he got mad at me and he called her to warn her about me knowing. I never called the first one, I have no idea why he thought I would call her. He said it was a friend, etc, etc. and tells me yesterday that he has not been happy in 13 years and is not in love with me. He went to a family picnic with his family 4 hours away today for the holiday. I feel so betrayed. Nice repayment, huh? Holy crap, I took care of this man, have worked and worked to make enough money to keep us afloat and he is not in love with me? Is he 21? He is 57 years old.

I have cried and cried and cannot believe that I am here again. Crap. If you want your marriage to last, you had better find some way to make sure your wife knows you love her and never, ever give her reason to think you have other interests.

On a more positive side, the last time this happened, I did agree to not leave him when he asked and told me how sorry he was. Here is the positive part. I actually was starting to feel better about myself when that happened. I think there is a light on the horizon if I can get past this darkness. I am very sorry you feel needy and dependent. I know how that feels. I don't know how I would have made it through today if I had not talked to people who love me.

I wish you the best. If it helps, I think you sound like a earnest person who is willing to compromise and that will help you.

Best to you

 

while your info is an interesting read - it may be more useful to you and Nick - if you start your own thread so that others can consider helping you.

[NickFeek]

Nick,

I just found this today and it struck a note with me. I am also feeling very dependent right now. My marriage of almost 22 years looks like it is going down the tubes and I have sat here today...well worked some, also..but I have felt so needy. I have talked to friends and family (a few, anyway), trying to feel better. Oh wow, I even said to them "I am sorry for being so needy". You have young kids which is hard, but it does divert some of your attention.

My husband cheated on me with an old girlfriend back in 1997 when we had been married for 8 years. My son was 7 and I made the decision to stay with him because of him. I love him more than I hated what my husband did. We have stayed together; it has been ok..not great, I would say, but not bad. Not enough sex, mostly my fault, truthfully. I had a hysterectomy, no hormones, maybe residual resentment. Fast forward to last year. Long story, but my husband became ill after treatment for Hep C and he was quite ill last year. He had a liver transplant last June. It really hurt us financially..refinanced, home equity, had to move temporarily and have a son in college. I tool care of him, went to all of these appointments, moved for transplant, etc. In January, he started on Facebook all of the time; he is not working and I work from home. He started acting squirrelly and I looked at his phone records...oh yes, I know, I'm awful. It wouldn't be a problem if there was no problem. I would not care if he did this with me. Anyway, I found a number called a lot, confronted him, he got mad at me and he called her to warn her about me knowing. I never called the first one, I have no idea why he thought I would call her. He said it was a friend, etc, etc. and tells me yesterday that he has not been happy in 13 years and is not in love with me. He went to a family picnic with his family 4 hours away today for the holiday. I feel so betrayed. Nice repayment, huh? Holy crap, I took care of this man, have worked and worked to make enough money to keep us afloat and he is not in love with me? Is he 21? He is 57 years old.

I have cried and cried and cannot believe that I am here again. Crap. If you want your marriage to last, you had better find some way to make sure your wife knows you love her and never, ever give her reason to think you have other interests.

On a more positive side, the last time this happened, I did agree to not leave him when he asked and told me how sorry he was. Here is the positive part. I actually was starting to feel better about myself when that happened. I think there is a light on the horizon if I can get past this darkness. I am very sorry you feel needy and dependent. I know how that feels. I don't know how I would have made it through today if I had not talked to people who love me.

I wish you the best. If it helps, I think you sound like a earnest person who is willing to compromise and that will help you.

Best to you

 

Hi Steen. Thanks for telling me all of that. I can completely understand why you'd be needy in your situation! It sounds like such a difficult journey you've had. I can't imagine how it must feel to have been abandoned (in a sense) twice by the same man after giving so much to him.

 

Darn right there are some days that are impossible to get through without having people to talk or write to! And I do think that people in situations such as ours (different, but with some key similarities) should not feel bad about being needy. It's the tough times when people should be able to count on support from friends & loved ones (and professionals if they so choose). You're right that kids distract, often in good ways, as does work.

 

I've read your post three times, and I just want to cry for you. I really do hope you're seeing a light on the horizon, because you deserve it.

[NickFeek]

you have just had a HOLIDAY weekend. what was the three day holiday like in your home?

 

please describe in detail what you two have been DOING to make sure the weekend went well. do not list empty words that weren't backed up with congruent action.

 

list for us what you two have been doing to make sure each of you understands the other as their priority and what you are doing together that shows loving actions and behavior toward the other.

 

please leave out long, empty promises and conversations - we are wanting evidence of changes in your marriage.

 

Ha okay sure. I'll leave out the conversations.

 

It was a hectic weekend, mostly spent doing home improvement stuff and making sure the kids had a great holiday.

 

In among that we had some time to be intimate - not much and we were interrupted by one of the kids, but it was nice to reconnect in that way.

 

We have woken each other up more often - back story there is that our body clocks are so different that we're rarely awake & together at the same time for very long, so one of us usually needs to wake up the other to be together at all; we rarely do this, and so have started to do it more.

 

She spent much more time with the kids this weekend, and gave me several breaks, a favor I returned.

 

She has been very kind (almost sweet) and affectionate lately, in a way she hasn't been for a long time. I did mention this before, in the context of worrying about WHY she'd be this way in the middle of our crisis - i.e. is she so scared of losing me that she needs to be more inviting? I'm not knocking it. I'm just concerned about how long it will last.

 

That's about it. I've made my list of action items, and we plan to talk after the kids are asleep tonight.

 

This seeming change of heart in her is confusing me to no end. To illustrate:

 

--Part of me feels good that she has been making more of an effort to stay in touch with me & my needs.

--Part of me is angry that things aren't like this more often (the too little too late story).

--Part of me is suspicious about why & how long it will last.

--Part of me feels guilty because of how nice she's being, and yet at the same time I'm expending so much energy & effort considering leaving her.

--Part of me is scared that I'll succumb to the more inviting atmosphere and be lulled into a tacit agreement that we'll just stay together as is & work it out.

--Part of me is relieved that that might be the case.

--Part of me is queasy, sick that I'm NOT going to be lulled and will have to pull the rug out from under her efforts, after she's been so nice.

--Part of me doesn't give a S and wants to up & leave anyway.

 

I don't think I'll know WHICH parts of me will win out until we see how long this connection will last, which relates to the action items list, and the fact that nothing really changes overnight.

[Steen719]

while your info is an interesting read - it may be more useful to you and Nick - if you start your own thread so that others can consider helping you.

 

I am sorry. I thought it was ok to post there.

[fltc]

I am sorry. I thought it was ok to post there.

 

It certainly is OK to post here, no problem there but, as 2sunny said, you'll get more help and better responses if you start your own thread as well.