25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

none of it matters - i'm going off of her actions.

 

you don't seem to be acknowledging her actions (or inactions) as much as you should.

 

she gives words (promises) then doesn't do what she says. you are married to a gal that constantly lies about what she will do. yet you don't see it.

 

she may act nice in person... but she needs to knowing she's told you lies.

 

read the book Nick - the first agreement is "be impeccable with your word"

 

neither one of you do this first agreement well... as you keep promising yourself certain things too - then no follow through - just more excuses and waiting on empty words.

 

read that book today!

 

I just bought it on Kindle and read the first three pages!

 

I have told her that she lies, and her answers vary from "How dare you" to several reasons why what she's doing is not a like, most of which have to do with how it's impossible to predict when a last minute call or email comes up. That may be true, but every night???

[NickFeek]

Nick, why do you think she chooses to work late all the time?

 

In her mind it's not a choice at all, which is why I often feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. To her it's the nature of the job. Which again I say, every night? Every week?

 

She would NEVER admit she's working late all the time to avoid me or the kids, and would probably lash out in rage if I suggested it.

[2sunny]

I just bought it on Kindle and read the first three pages!

 

I have told her that she lies, and her answers vary from "How dare you" to several reasons why what she's doing is not a like, most of which have to do with how it's impossible to predict when a last minute call or email comes up. That may be true, but every night???

 

In her mind it's not a choice at all, which is why I often feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. To her it's the nature of the job. Which again I say, every night? Every week?

 

She would NEVER admit she's working late all the time to avoid me or the kids, and would probably lash out in rage if I suggested it.

 

start writing down what she agrees to (her words) and what her actions do - keep a journal... then leave it out after a week with the evidence of how her words don't match her actions (lies). it's tough to argue evidence.

 

she obviously takes calls/emails when she doesn't HAVE to - an hence, taking them causes her to become the liar... since she is then late compared to what she promised. keep the log each day. i have things come up all the time - if i have to be somewhere - i simply say, can't do that right now... i have a commitment. my word is good! i keep my word - and i never tell someone i will be somewhere IF i even wonder if it may not be possible... in those cases i say, i'll do my best - or, that is my plan and i'll let you know if ANYTHING changes... but i deal with life and death instances with people - so anything can come up - but i always keep my word.

 

keep reading - it's a fantastic little book, life changing for me.

 

she may not be capable of predicting what might come up - but she IS capable of not responding to demands and just saying NO! that, she DOES have control over. she acts as if she's helpless to say no while she's there - which she's not. NO ONE needs to work that way. is she ineffective that it takes her three times longer to do what's necessary in a normal days work? seems likely. tell her to take a time management class - since she doesn't know how to delegate or is ineffective. see how she likes that... because it appears she can't get her work done.

 

most EVERY action we do is a choice! unless someone is holding her down against her will... it IS her choice... she should at least own what she IS doing! she acts like someone takes over her body - well, guess what, they don't she does this to herself...

 

and the "how dare you" that is just her way of her guilt being thrown back at you. HOW DARE SHE! master manipulator. if she wants to ACT as if she has no family - she may as well find out what it feels like to have no family.

 

start the sex. ask for everything you want - see what she responds with! let's see how she's going to lie and manipulate her way out of this one.

 

it IS part of a marriage, ya know? or did she forget that one conveniently too?

[NickFeek]

start writing down what she agrees to (her words) and what her actions do - keep a journal... then leave it out after a week with the evidence of how her words don't match her actions (lies). it's tough to argue evidence.

 

she obviously takes calls/emails when she doesn't HAVE to - an hence, taking them causes her to become the liar... since she is then late compared to what she promised. keep the log each day. i have things come up all the time - if i have to be somewhere - i simply say, can't do that right now... i have a commitment. my word is good! i keep my word - and i never tell someone i will be somewhere IF i even wonder if it may not be possible... in those cases i say, i'll do my best - or, that is my plan and i'll let you know if ANYTHING changes... but i deal with life and death instances with people - so anything can come up - but i always keep my word.

 

keep reading - it's a fantastic little book, life changing for me.

 

she may not be capable of predicting what might come up - but she IS capable of not responding to demands and just saying NO! that, she DOES have control over. she acts as if she's helpless to say no while she's there - which she's not. NO ONE needs to work that way. is she ineffective that it takes her three times longer to do what's necessary in a normal days work? seems likely. tell her to take a time management class - since she doesn't know how to delegate or is ineffective. see how she likes that... because it appears she can't get her work done.

 

most EVERY action we do is a choice! unless someone is holding her down against her will... it IS her choice... she should at least own what she IS doing! she acts like someone takes over her body - well, guess what, they don't she does this to herself...

 

and the "how dare you" that is just her way of her guilt being thrown back at you. HOW DARE SHE! master manipulator. if she wants to ACT as if she has no family - she may as well find out what it feels like to have no family.

 

start the sex. ask for everything you want - see what she responds with! let's see how she's going to lie and manipulate her way out of this one.

 

it IS part of a marriage, ya know? or did she forget that one conveniently too?

 

The journal idea is a good one. I also know it will drive her crazy. She hates feeling like someone is looking over her shoulder. But with things the way they are, we both need accountability and concreteness.

 

It's not that she's ineffective at the actual work. She kicks butt in her job on all work product levels. BUT it IS everything else you mentioned - the inability to delegate, the choices she makes about what work to say yes or no to, the choices she makes about when to NOT take that last call or email. I have ALWAYS thought she has real choices here, despite her arguments to the contrary. I keep saying that anytime there's a choice between coming through time-wise for me or the kids, or coming through for the job, the job ALWAYS wins. And that hurts.

 

We are both in a bad state this week, from the obvious but also from external issues (kids, illnesses, jobs). I have told her we are going to make a point of talking every night this long weekend, and of laying out specifics so we have easily measurable goals. At this point, I'm really just sooo worn out that I'm going to dryly focus on whether or not these goals are reached, and make the next decision based on that - try to keep emotion out of it. Too exhausting.

 

Already about 80% done the book, and have highlighted several passages.

[RecordProducer]

Hi Nick. I'm sorry, I read the first couple pages of your thread and would gladly read the rest but don't have the time. I have some questions for you, so sorry if they were previously answered.

 

Does the 60 hrs/week include transportation? In other words, how much time exactly is she spending out of the house related to her work? Does she have weekends off? I don't think it's impossible for her to work 40 hours as a lawyer, but she wouldn't make the same money.

 

When did the affair occur? It sounds like after years of a practically sexless marriage, which means she should understand that she is more to be blamed than you are. After all, she didn't want you. I understand people's view that you can get a divorce instead, but destoring a family over sex is not a decision as easy as leaving a physically abusive person. And even in those marriages people stay for all kinds of reasons. Nowadays everyone seems to flap the divorce card around as if marriage is a movie you don't like, so you can just leave the theater and ask for a refund. Divorces are very painful and the notion of "better alone than in a bad marriage" is highly overrated and overused. Sometimes marriages can be fixed with some effort, flaws and mistakes can be tolerated, or good still outweighs the bad in the relationship. Every marriage has ups and downs and the success of any marriage doesn't depend on prevention of downs, but on turning the downs into ups. Besides, in further defense of marriages, finding love after a divorce is not guaranteed. You may spend many years feeling lonely and depressed, grieving over the family you once were. Many people re-marry and re-divorce and end up alone. When you're alone at 70, you may feel differently about whether sex was more important than friendship.

 

On the other hand, a divorce can open the door for happiness with someone new. Cheating (or even having an open marriage) is not a solution to a sexless marriage, because we want physical intimacy with the person we love - not to separate the sex from love. And after all, we can't just think about how we're going to feel when we are 70, as nothing is guaranteed.

 

The next question I wanted to ask you, Nick, is what exactly do you expect from us to tell you? Some posters told you to divorce, some toldyou to talk and get counseling... what I think you're asking is exactly the title of your thread: is it time to end it? I think what you want to hear is YES. You just feel reluctant and perhaps even guilty because you have 25 years invested and you have young kids. If you're not sure, why not separate and see how you feel, rather than just file for a divorce immediately? Sometimes people reconnect during separation and the spark resurfaces.

[2sunny]

how's the book Nick?

 

i love that part at the end of the book - starting on page 101 where they refer to the victim, the judge and the parasite. it helps me all the time understanding that i don't want to be that anymore.

 

i want and live for good balance. good balance is effortless. the reason why you two struggle is because things are so out of balance.

 

the next great book by the same author is "the voice of knowledge" which also helped me immensely! check it out! i learned i no longer need to believe the things i was taught as a young girl if they don't work for me. this includes "we just don't get divorced in this family" and "act happy when you're not". so i learned how to stop pretending and how to recognize how i TRULY felt - and how to convey THAT message.

 

let me know what you think of the four agreements too.

[NickFeek]

Hi Nick. I'm sorry, I read the first couple pages of your thread and would gladly read the rest but don't have the time. I have some questions for you, so sorry if they were previously answered.

 

Does the 60 hrs/week include transportation? In other words, how much time exactly is she spending out of the house related to her work? Does she have weekends off? I don't think it's impossible for her to work 40 hours as a lawyer, but she wouldn't make the same money.

 

When did the affair occur? It sounds like after years of a practically sexless marriage, which means she should understand that she is more to be blamed than you are. After all, she didn't want you. I understand people's view that you can get a divorce instead, but destoring a family over sex is not a decision as easy as leaving a physically abusive person. And even in those marriages people stay for all kinds of reasons. Nowadays everyone seems to flap the divorce card around as if marriage is a movie you don't like, so you can just leave the theater and ask for a refund. Divorces are very painful and the notion of "better alone than in a bad marriage" is highly overrated and overused. Sometimes marriages can be fixed with some effort, flaws and mistakes can be tolerated, or good still outweighs the bad in the relationship. Every marriage has ups and downs and the success of any marriage doesn't depend on prevention of downs, but on turning the downs into ups. Besides, in further defense of marriages, finding love after a divorce is not guaranteed. You may spend many years feeling lonely and depressed, grieving over the family you once were. Many people re-marry and re-divorce and end up alone. When you're alone at 70, you may feel differently about whether sex was more important than friendship.

 

On the other hand, a divorce can open the door for happiness with someone new. Cheating (or even having an open marriage) is not a solution to a sexless marriage, because we want physical intimacy with the person we love - not to separate the sex from love. And after all, we can't just think about how we're going to feel when we are 70, as nothing is guaranteed.

 

The next question I wanted to ask you, Nick, is what exactly do you expect from us to tell you? Some posters told you to divorce, some toldyou to talk and get counseling... what I think you're asking is exactly the title of your thread: is it time to end it? I think what you want to hear is YES. You just feel reluctant and perhaps even guilty because you have 25 years invested and you have young kids. If you're not sure, why not separate and see how you feel, rather than just file for a divorce immediately? Sometimes people reconnect during separation and the spark resurfaces.

 

Hi. Thanks for chiming in. I don't blame you for not reading all 42 pages! What's interesting, though, is that even though you didn't read most of the posts, what you wrote was a fairly fresh take on everything, so I really appreciate that. To answer....

 

I do think you're right about her job, in that her total office hours are not unreasonable for a lawyer. But if you are talking total work time, that would have to include the hours & hours she spends working at home as well. I'd say, including that and transportation, she's pulling an average of 60-70 hours a week. Weekends are usually untouched & left for family & cleaning. The thing is, in her company, she could be working 10-15 hours less per week and still be making the same money. It's not based on billable hours. And what hurts isn't so much the quantity as A. that every week/month/year there is no respite from this; B. when faced with a choice between more home time & more work, she almost always chooses work, and C. very often her down time is spent worrying about work or checking her Blackberry. To be fair, I'd say it's a combination of actual obligation and true workaholism/escapism.

 

The affair happened in early September, so it's been about 8 months, and about six months since my wife has known. I COULD NOT AGREE MORE with what you're saying about sex in relation to marriage/kids. It's never seemed like a cut & dry subject or decision for me. I've never felt justified giving up on this marriage because of the sex issue. Yet you're right that it's been largely sexless, and that this is symptomatic of a distance that has grown between us, so the effects are more than just lack of sex. With kids involved, the thought of out & out divorce has just terrified me. But these intense feelings of loneliness & neglect have been with me our entire marriage, and it's just not something I want to live with anymore. I figure at least being lonely while alone gives me the option of finding someone, however long that may take, as opposed to being lonely & consigned to follow the lead of a loveless wife (loveless on an intimate level - sex, affection, all of it).

 

I'm here because I'm torn. I want to hear all sides. I want to get some outsider opinions. And I've been lucky enough to have found a great group of people with varying points of view. It has helped me triangulate what really matters to me, and to formulate actions to take, things to say, etc. I do think on one level I'm just looking for "permission" to leave, because of how bad it feels to contemplate that without knowing how justified I am in going that route. I also think I'd love to find a way to stay & make it work, but that so many signs are spelling out that this will be difficult (if not impossible). To fill you in briefly, she does not want to go to marriage counseling. We don't talk on a regular basis (once or twice a week at most). She has said she does not expect much of a change from herself on the sex & work fronts. There have been no significant or tangible changes in any realm - work, sex, communication, home life. She IS still reeling from my betrayal, and I do keep that in mind at all times. She is also finally seeing that there's much more to our troubles than the cheating, though I'm not sure she's ready (or will ever be ready) to take on the responsibility of changing what SHE needs to.

 

The only significant change has been that we're both being more honest about what we think will work & what won't. This weekend I plan to lay out extremely specific items/goals, and to put our feet to the fire once and for all, so we can see if the future of our marriage is viable in any practical way.

 

If it turns out it isn't, I would be VERY amenable to a separation - to give it a try for both of us & see how it all feels. Unfortunately, she has said in no uncertain terms that there will be NO IN-BETWEEN on this. That if I insist on a separation, it will be a DIVORCE. I'm hoping she softens on this point, for the sake of all involved. And maybe that's just her threatening me, making me afraid to go that route, and when I do she will consider other options. But you can see how tough my position is, and how much courage/etc. I will need to take that leap.

 

Thanks again.

[NickFeek]

how's the book Nick?

 

i love that part at the end of the book - starting on page 101 where they refer to the victim, the judge and the parasite. it helps me all the time understanding that i don't want to be that anymore.

 

i want and live for good balance. good balance is effortless. the reason why you two struggle is because things are so out of balance.

 

the next great book by the same author is "the voice of knowledge" which also helped me immensely! check it out! i learned i no longer need to believe the things i was taught as a young girl if they don't work for me. this includes "we just don't get divorced in this family" and "act happy when you're not". so i learned how to stop pretending and how to recognize how i TRULY felt - and how to convey THAT message.

 

let me know what you think of the four agreements too.

 

I will! I'll probably finish it tonight. What I'd like to do is pull out all my highlighted passages & put them on my board at work, so I can keep them in the forefront of my thinking even when I falter.

 

Balance. I've achieved it for myself, but my happiness is still so contingent upon balance in our marriage and her as an individual that I've gone as far as I can go. She has to put up or shut up.

[2sunny]

I will! I'll probably finish it tonight. What I'd like to do is pull out all my highlighted passages & put them on my board at work, so I can keep them in the forefront of my thinking even when I falter.

 

Balance. I've achieved it for myself, but my happiness is still so contingent upon balance in our marriage and her as an individual that I've gone as far as I can go. She has to put up or shut up.

 

What she's giving you, Nick, may be the best she's planning to give...

[RecordProducer]

60-70 hours a week. Weekends are usually untouched & left for family & cleaning. The thing is, in her company, she could be working 10-15 hours less per week and still be making the same money. It's not based on billable hours.

I don't see her work as THE problem at all. If you had the intimacy and closeness you crave, you would be happy to just go to bed with her every night after a brief chit-chat over a cup of tea, and to spend wonderfulweekends with her. It's just that when we're losing our partner (or have lost them already), we tend to blame it on other things: work, hobbies, friends, in-laws... but in reality it's our partner who is the missing person in the relationship. If you ever work things out with her, perhaps she could find employment as an in-house counsel; she would work mostly 9-5 and still make amazing money. Or she could switch to solo or small private practice, or just chnage the area of law - this is usually not a problem for lawyers as it would be for other occupations. Finally, she could hire part-time interns for like $10-15 per hour depending on your area, to help her with her work. I am sorry if I am telling you things you already know, I am sort of walking in the dark here. I think a lawyer can always find a job where there'll be less work and less money. It's the other way round that's more rare.

 

these intense feelings of loneliness & neglect have been with me our entire marriage, and it's just not something I want to live with anymore. I figure at least being lonely while alone gives me the option of finding someone, however long that may take, as opposed to being lonely & consigned to follow the lead of a loveless wife (loveless on an intimate level - sex, affection, all of it).

This is the main problem in the marriage, and IMO the only one: that you feel lonely and forgotten and unloved. Everything else is better than this. We people are able to forgive but in a marriage like this there is nothing to forgive, there is just painful emptiness and a room mate who is not asking you for forgiveness because they forgot you exist - or so it feels.

 

I do think on one level I'm just looking for "permission" to leave, because of how bad it feels to contemplate that without knowing how justified I am in going that route.

Right. Good!

 

She has said she does not expect much of a change from herself on the sex & work fronts. There have been no significant or tangible changes in any realm - work, sex, communication, home life.

 

She IS still reeling from my betrayal, and I do keep that in mind at all times.

I lived in a sexless marriage for three years, I was the rejected and starved one. It was absolutely horrible. He actually dumped me at the end, but the relevant part is that I do know one thing about sexless marriages: it's a huge problem that extends way beyond "penetration." It's like living in a house with no windows and it's always winter; no matter how fancy the house, the furniture, the appliances, you can't live there because you can't enjoy any of it while you're freezing. And then the resentment grows inside you because your partner is telling you "Nope. You can't install windows or a fireplace. Deal with it." And then you go to the neighbor's house to warm up for a bit, and you are called a cheater.

 

From what you're telling me, it sounds like your marriage is frozen. Of course, you're responsible for the facts we have in the record, but no matter what your wife's side of the story may be, these are your feelings and they are legitimate. Your wife may come here and post a completely different story, but the fact remains she doesn't want to go to counseling or even try to work on the marriage, and her attitude about the sex remains 'thanks, but no, thanks.'

 

It's hard to decide whether to end a marriage because of lack of sex, but think in perspective, if you dated the most wonderful woman for a year and were madly in love with her, prosed to her, and she said "Yes, but you must know once we get married we will never have sex, or at most 6 times a year." Would you marry her? Would you think the relationshipwould remain all wonderful minus penetration or would expect it to rot? I can tell you I wouldn't want to be again in a sexless marriage. I'd take some other character flaws over sexlessness. I'd rather be cheated on if I had to choose. Infidelity or any other flaw (addictions, laziness, rudeness, etc.)you can deal with: you can forgive, you can fight about it every day, you can get back at them, you can go to counseling, you can learn to tolerate... But there is NOTHING you can do about lack of intimacy. Nothing that will help you.

 

The only significant change has been that we're both being more honest about what we think will work & what won't.

Her honesty consisting of informing you that whatever SHE needs to change about her won't work! (Sorry, it's not funny. )

 

This weekend I plan to lay out extremely specific items/goals, and to put our feet to the fire once and for all, so we can see if the future of our marriage is viable in any practical way.

My prediction (and my personal experience) is that you will be wasting your time by laying out any goals,especially specific ones. She heard you, she doesn't care. She knows what the problem is and made it clear to you nothing will change and if you want to separate, we will divorce. The more you talk to her the more cards you put in her hands. I mean, I am not advising you to play games, but at this point THAT is her mindset and she runs the show. On the contrary, tell her "Since you said nothing will ever change in our marriage, I am leaving. And since you said if I leave, we must divorce, I have scheduled an appointment with a divorce attorney for Tuesday at 9 a.m. "This is when they start saying "I never said that... wait a minute..." And then the mistake most of us make is we melt, open up, and lose the game. If you want to try to save your marriage, your ONLY option is to leave without looking back. Act as if it's a done deal and do not even stop packing your bags while she's talking to you. And when she starts crying, leave the room to get your black suitcase.

 

Whenever I touched my suitcase, my ex wanted me to stay, but I was stupid and put the suitcase back. He ended up not just dumping me (two decades younger than him) but telling me "Get the F out of my life!" because I begged and cried and pleaded and promised and ... you get it. He was telling me to get the hell out and find someone else for two years. He said we were separated, we were done, he was going to go out by himself and if the opportunity presents itself for him to be with another woman, he wouldn't avoid it. He confirmed I should consider myself a single woman, not expect anything from him, he took all credit/debit cards I had for our joint account and told me we were just rooming until I was able to leave (since I am an immigrant and had no family here). I started dating, right in front of his nose, and a year later finally slept with some guy and told my ex-husband about it. Immediately (!!!) he decided he was madly in love with me. I went to see the guy for the second time and ex-H calls my cell ALL night long. The next day we reconcile (ex-H and I) and stupid me, I give him a list of 5-6 things that I expect from him, stuff like love, sex, affection, respect, commitment, each elaborated with one-two handwritten sentences. He tells me "Yeah, I saw it. It's all bulsh*t."

 

Things went very wrong from there, but basically he turned into the same frozen, dismissive person. Six weeks later I moved out at his request. For a couple months I was doing fine and feeling happy - this is when he started chasing me, sleeping with me, dining out, etc. And again I became clingy and telling him I wanted him back.

 

Fast reward, what would I have done differently: I should've told him "I am in love with my new boyfriend [which I wasn't at all], I am getting my own place, I am the happiest woman in the world and all I want to do is make love with my new prince. You stay the F out of my way and don't pull any tricks on me, I don't want to see you or hear from you."

 

And then keep it that way for a long time. Then, if we would actually reconcile, I should've kept him on his toes all the time - not talking about putting much effort into playing any games; quite the opposite, putting no effort at all. You can still be a fun, desirable partner, be affectionate, sexual, and an interesting conversationalist without putting the kind of effort that damages relationships. And one of those efforts is trying to talk when they don't want to talk, or laying out your needs and demands when they tellyou "forget it about it" or "it's all BS." Unfortunately, the only time you will know you're doing something right is when THEY are begging YOU to tell them what you expect from them.

 

Just think from a psychological viewpoint, your boss tells you "I have high expectations regarding this project and I don't think you're the right person" - you ask what the expectations are or at least you wonder. Or you know what they are and feel defeated and want to show you can meet those expectations.

 

If however your boss throws a pile of papers in front of you and gives you a list of expectations,you just think "As*hole! I should really look for another job."

 

In a marriage like yours, where your wife is calling the shots (in the intimacy/affection department), you're NOT in a position to lay out your goals. She's the boss, you're not equal. For as long as she says "No, I will not change in the work/sex area," she thinks she has the upper hand. Reverse the tables to make her listen. Keep them reversed to make her make promises. Keep them reversed to make her WANT to follow through because she cares about you.

 

My ex would always get antsy when I would be quiet and acting like I got it, I made some decision, and I am at peace. He'd worry what's going on so he'd start testing the terrain without stepping on anything. You can only make her listen very carefully when you're NOT saying anything.

[2sunny]

This is the main problem in the marriage, and IMO the only one: that you feel lonely and forgotten and unloved. Everything else is better than this. We people are able to forgive but in a marriage like this there is nothing to forgive, there is just painful emptiness and a room mate who is not asking you for forgiveness because they forgot you exist - or so it feels.

 

very true - since she's doing nothing - she figures she's doing nothing wrong = but essentially she is... because she won't DO anything different - knowing you are completely depressed with the way things are. seems like she's being purposefully torturous.

 

She has said she does not expect much of a change from herself on the sex & work fronts. There have been no significant or tangible changes in any realm - work, sex, communication, home life.

 

true. she doesn't intend to change - so the only thing to accept is that you intend to be living a different life than the one she's offering. so leave.

 

You can only make her listen very carefully when you're NOT saying anything.

 

yep. say nothing at this point - she's listened to everything all along - and not changed.

 

let her tell you anything that needs to be on the table (what exactly she's going to do now) - see what SHE says... write it down - let her watch you write it all down -post it in the kitchen, then document how her words mean she's a liar when she doesn't DO what's on her list that she commits to. meanwhile don't say a word.

 

 

 

even IF she's home- it's a tough one, because you have to know she doesn't WANT to be home, she'd rather be working. so really, what's the point?

 

 

i would NEVER stay for even one day with a man that didn't want to be with me when given the chance... to chat, eat together, get out and do things together and make love at the end of every day. no way, no how!

 

 

 

In a marriage like yours, where your wife is calling the shots (in the intimacy/affection department), you're NOT in a position to lay out your goals. She's the boss, you're not equal. For as long as she says "No, I will not change in the work/sex area," she thinks she has the upper hand. Reverse the tables to make her listen. Keep them reversed to make her make promises. Keep them reversed to make her WANT to follow through because she cares about you.

 

it's completely out of balance- and that's what i was trying to get you to do - take some of your power back =she has too much!

 

the power has all been handed to her because you DO everything around the house/kids - so stop doing things... simply let things go until she is forced to participate... run out of things if you need to make a point to her. you shouldn't be willing to be her errand boy, let her get to the market and run household errands. let her find out how much time and energy it takes to keep up with simple things to have a house run smoothly. i had to learn a lot when i divorced, there's only one way to get it all done - you just DO it... even if it's killing you. i remember heading to the market at 8pm some nights... it happens - no one dies from that.

 

tell her you're on strike... her husband has gone missing because she ignored him so long.

[NickFeek]

What she's giving you, Nick, may be the best she's planning to give...

 

You've just summed up what I've been fearing & struggling with for the last 15 years.

[2sunny]

good post RP -

 

i was hoping a long timer would step in and help a bit! glad to see you back!

 

hugs!

[NickFeek]

I barely know where to begin. This was a monumental post - it covered so much and not one line was wasted. I appreciate you telling me your story too. It helps to know where someone else is coming from, and to hear some significant similarities too.

 

My wife also believes her work is not the problem. I can't argue with that. Sure I'd like to see her more often, and hear from her during the day once or twice; but yes, if we were consistently intimate, and I knew she cared more than just from her words, I could probably tolerate her current schedule - because I'd have awesome stuff to look forward to.

 

Those are great suggestions, and I have asked her often to look into other job options. This is certainly not the first or only area of law she's practiced - far from it. But the truth is I think she really loves this job & some of the people there, including her boss. Let's just say it would take a lot to convince her to change her job. And the careerist part of me completely understands that.

 

YES YES YES that's right. I feel lonely, forgotten & unloved. Now in her opinion, she is loving me in all these other ways. And that's true to a degree. But if I'm not feeling it, I think it should be a lover's responsibility to find out why & to adjust (reasonably) to the other lover's needs. She is basically giving me what she herself needs out of love, and does not hold my needs in very high regard. Honestly I think they make her uncomfortable to this day.

 

Your analogy about the freezing house kind of gave me a chill. Every detail of that paragraph sounds like my entire marriage. That other love she gives has been hard to feel because of how cold & dark the house is to me, and I DO resent her for this. Someone on this forum (I think) said - you can't make yourself the caretaker of another person's X (X = anything from sex life to emotional life to etc.), then not tend to X and also not allow that person to find other ways to tend to X. It's like being in prison in a way. My marriage has been frozen for so long that I'd just become used to wearing layers of clothing all the time, so to speak. And that blast of warmth I got last year was so refreshing & such a shock to my system that I knew I'd never be able to go back to the cold. And that's as much why our marriage is in crisis as is the fact of the cheating itself. I STILL WISH she could unfreeze, and those brief moments when she does are still so good, but it's never been enough. NOT EVEN CLOSE, sadly. She just seems more comfortable staying wherever it is she hides.

 

I agree that she would lay out other facts here, and I've tried to give some of those too. But yes, if she won't go to counseling, if in fact she seems more comfortable suffering and/or separating than just giving counseling a try, then it's hard for me to delve into her side of things.

 

Wow, that paragraph about lack of intimacy being the worst was a real shot in the head. I think the ABSENCE of anything is harder to take than the PRESENCE of most things (short of abuse), because how do you combat something that's not there? At this point, I would also trade other flaws for a relationship with more intimacy.

 

I may very well be wasting my time with the goals, but I would feel worse if we didn't at least try - if I didn't at least give her the opportunity to come through. BUT I've ALSO suspected that the one thing that may finally get her to come through would be for me to just walk out. And believe it or not, as see-sawing as I've been on this forum, I am fully prepared to do that. I DO tend to get to things in my life, just in my own way & time. Granted this one has taken WAY too long to get to, but I will make it happen soon. And I WILL stick to my guns. A decision like this is too huge for me to just turn back around. She has cried & pleaded plenty of times in the last six months, and it's hurt me deeply, but I have never once crumbled or groveled. I've comforted her and talked to her, and I've listened to her, but I've stood my ground, and will continue to. I realize I'm still giving her the power, but that's kind of my thing. I figure - let her show me what she'll do with this power. If it's like the past, she will squander it. But this time I will yank it back. And if the separation becomes permanent, it proves what she has always been incapable of. If instead she sees the light and gives me the reins in the intimacy department, we can always go back for another try, but this time knowing that she gets NO guarantees.

 

And your last point - it describes part of what's already going on. She has said to me often in the last few weeks that I seem to be saying less (or often nothing) to her, and it's freaking her out. The silence IS making her listen more & pay more attention to me. Doesn't mean she'll change, but it's good to know that strategy works - and I wasn't even doing it on purpose!

[2sunny]

I realize I'm still giving her the power, but that's kind of my thing.

 

this is what got you to this place Nick.

 

I figure - let her show me what she'll do with this power.

 

she's been doing it all along... she's trampled all over you with her power. and YOU keep allowing her to do it over and over.

 

 

until YOU yank that power right out of her hands - she's going to hang on as long as she can. and she's gonna use it in her favor as long as you let her. stop doing things for her! get busy living. start going out with friends, workout at night, take classes, go to the movies - leave the kids with a sitter if she's not home. if she thinks you are the sitter, think again, hire one now (even the weekends) for every night - then get out and do things without her! i'm not saying date - i'm saying get interested in YOUR life.

 

YOU don't need to separate to take your power back, start NOW! right now.

[NickFeek]

seems like she's being purposefully torturous.

 

the only thing to accept is that you intend to be living a different life than the one she's offering

 

let her tell you anything that needs to be on the table (what exactly she's going to do now) - see what SHE says... write it down - let her watch you write it all down -post it in the kitchen, then document how her words mean she's a liar when she doesn't DO what's on her list that she commits to. meanwhile don't say a word.

 

even IF she's home- it's a tough one, because you have to know she doesn't WANT to be home, she'd rather be working. so really, what's the point?

 

the power has all been handed to her because you DO everything around the house/kids - so stop doing things.

 

Good points as always. I excerpted some stuff I want to respond to.

 

I can't think of a good argument against your first line. I'll only say that if she IS being purposely torturous, then the Four Agreements would say that means she's also torturing herself. I've seen this in her - in fact just today she said in another context how she's always the one who bears the brunt of things. I refuted her in six different ways, but also thought how interesting it was that she feels almost like she NEEDS to have a life like that. I also told her that was not the life I wanted to lead anymore, which is why I included that second line up there.

 

We then started talking about what would happen if I were to leave, because this is what prompted her comment above. She said it seemed like my life would get better - easier, less filled with chores & kid stuff - and hers would get harder. I told her yes, there would be things she'd need to start doing on her own, BUT that my intention is not to add more misery or toil to anyone's life. I want everyone to find a way to be happy. I can & will & will want to still help with the kids. I was basically laying out how I hoped a separation would go. We were then interrupted by some hungry children , and said we'd continue that conversation later this weekend.

 

I DO plan to write down all the goals she sets for herself, as well as the ones she agrees to that I set for her & us. And I will absolutely document what does & doesn't happen.

 

I know very well that she DOES want to spend time with me. That's never been the problem. We have had many wonderful outings together. The problems are A. she never considers it enough of a priority to make the time for this on a regular basis; and B. the time we spend together almost always has to be on her terms. Now many of her terms are mine as well, and that's probably why we HAVE lasted so long. But those crucial things I need that AREN'T her terms are what has been slowly killing this.

 

The power is already shifting. Slower than you might recommend, but it's happening. We had a big fight last weekend, and even though we cleared the air about it & it led to some good talks, I was also clear in telling her it doesn't change the basic facts that we are unhappy, we are not really DOING anything to change that, and I am not super hopeful we CAN change that.

[NickFeek]

this is what got you to this place Nick.

 

 

 

she's been doing it all along... she's trampled all over you with her power. and YOU keep allowing her to do it over and over.

 

 

until YOU yank that power right out of her hands - she's going to hang on as long as she can. and she's gonna use it in her favor as long as you let her. stop doing things for her! get busy living. start going out with friends, workout at night, take classes, go to the movies - leave the kids with a sitter if she's not home. if she thinks you are the sitter, think again, hire one now (even the weekends) for every night - then get out and do things without her! i'm not saying date - i'm saying get interested in YOUR life.

 

YOU don't need to separate to take your power back, start NOW! right now.

 

Theoretically I don't need to separate to regain my power. And yes, I've already started to take back some of it. But practically speaking it seems next to impossible to maintain the kind of power balance we'd need to be successful, unless she's more willing to meet me in the middle - something you'll agree she's never shown she can (or at least will) do.

 

That first line - my point is that I'm consciously allowing her to maintain some of her power, to see if this different and very critical period for us is enough to compel her to do things differently. As you (or someone) said, sometimes it takes a crisis to bring about real change. SO I'm giving her the chance to prove that.

 

If we're specific about those changes, and I document what happens next, there's no arguing about the outcome. If she follows through, wonderful, and we start a new life with new rules. If she doesn't, at least we proved it beyond a doubt - that even NOW she can't go there. And that's when I yank the power back by leaving.

[2sunny]

how she's always the one who bears the brunt of things.

 

she figures a good pity party for herself is going to get you to do more things her way. i guarantee it.

 

she's trying to guilt you into keeping things the same.

 

and earlier when she said to you "how dare you" that's essentially because she knows it's true - but she sure wouldn't expect you to speak your truth and she had no way of denying EVIDENCE. when the evidence is laid out - no one can deny... she's just mad at you for noticing now- and speaking your truth - to which you have evidence.

 

she has to own what evidence is there - and that's not going to be easy for a gal that throws it back at you with "how dare you"

 

really? how dare does SHE do that?

 

ignore her... just like she's done to you for way too long, simply ignore her and any feelings she has.

[tojaz]

In her mind it's not a choice at all, which is why I often feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. To her it's the nature of the job. Which again I say, every night? Every week?

 

She would NEVER admit she's working late all the time to avoid me or the kids, and would probably lash out in rage if I suggested it.

 

Didn't ask about what it was in her mind. Why do YOU think she does what she does. People are rarely willing to admit when they have chosen to slight someone else. She is making a conscious choice, and it has to be more then just the money or the status of her job. What is she gaining for herself that would steer her in that direction.

 

The question you need to answer is WHY she feels the need to do so rather then how to stop her. You may stop her momentarily to return peace to the household, but if the desire remains, it will be a temporary condition. I take it you would not enjoy revisiting this situation a couple years down the road yes?

 

TOJAZ

[NickFeek]

she figures a good pity party for herself is going to get you to do more things her way. i guarantee it.

 

she's trying to guilt you into keeping things the same.

 

and earlier when she said to you "how dare you" that's essentially because she knows it's true - but she sure wouldn't expect you to speak your truth and she had no way of denying EVIDENCE. when the evidence is laid out - no one can deny... she's just mad at you for noticing now- and speaking your truth - to which you have evidence.

 

she has to own what evidence is there - and that's not going to be easy for a gal that throws it back at you with "how dare you"

 

really? how dare does SHE do that?

 

ignore her... just like she's done to you for way too long, simply ignore her and any feelings she has.

 

I'm doing one better in my book, which is I'm letting her know I hear & understand what she's saying. And I'm telling her I'm sorry things have been so hard. I want her to see that even during a crisis I care about her & hurt for her - I do. I don't want her to be able to point a finger back at me. Believe me, I've screwed up enough times by not listening to her and/or shutting down what she's trying to tell me, that I owe her my ears & my compassion.

 

BUT I ALSO told her that she needs to look back on everything in our history & understand why we are where we are now, and why it's so hurtful & confusing to her. She pushed back on this a million times at first (as always), but I kept my calmness & continued to repeat, at which point she calmed down as well, actually acknowledged that this may just be too difficult to work out - and that's when we started talking about what a separation would be like for each of us.

 

So what she came away with was that I can no longer be guilted into keeping things the same or going back to ANY point in our relationship, and that I will not take the bait of her emotional display (genuine of course but definitely meant to evoke certain responses from me) and crumble or grovel.

[NickFeek]

Didn't ask about what it was in her mind. Why do YOU think she does what she does. People are rarely willing to admit when they have chosen to slight someone else. She is making a conscious choice, and it has to be more then just the money or the status of her job. What is she gaining for herself that would steer her in that direction.

 

The question you need to answer is WHY she feels the need to do so rather then how to stop her. You may stop her momentarily to return peace to the household, but if the desire remains, it will be a temporary condition. I take it you would not enjoy revisiting this situation a couple years down the road yes?

 

TOJAZ

 

Oh no question. Every step of the way, even after weak moments, I renew my pledge to myself that I will NEVER go back to an arrangement that would EVER pose any danger of this happening again. Though I may have never cheated before that one time, we've been close to this point for other reasons, and we've always backed down. NOT this time.

 

Good insights. I have asked her why she works the way she does, and why it seems like she's avoided me for so many years. Her answers to the first question are always on the surface of what is or isn't viable at work, so I can never dig any deeper. The second question she has no answer to, and usually doesn't even try to answer it.

 

I told her today (for the 800th time in our life - probably NOT an exaggeration) that all I've ever wanted was to be able to dig deeper into her - emotionally for sure but physically as well. She said I never let her express when she's upset about something. I have definitely had plenty of defensive moments, since I don't always do well with her hurting. But I told her she was overstating this, that I ALWAYS consider what she's saying - and like her if my first response isn't the best, I will think on it & come back the next day in a better state. I told her I thought she thinks I'm her father - who does not seem to be good with emotions at all. She didn't agree, but didn't deny it either. YET through all this she never gets past that first accusation to explain why she doesn't seem to even want to share the GOOD emotions with me.

[2sunny]

She would NEVER admit she's working late all the time to avoid me or the kids, and would probably lash out in rage if I suggested it.

 

people don't get mad - or in a rage - if something isn't true. they only get mad and defensive if it's true. so i WOULD definitely speak my truth and tell her point blank why she's working so much- to avoid you and the kids. yep, tell her. the truth hurts - and walking on eggs shells has gotten you no where. so put it out there.

 

 

 

and your last post - you can hear her all you want - but she's not listening to you - and she's certainly not taking action either. she doesn't take you seriously. your word holds no merit in her eyes.

[trippi1432]

2 Sunny...I've read Ruiz...many good books but interpretation is up to the person...and even more, up to how we interpret the perceived injustices against us. Let us let Nick digest the things he has read without influencing him....obviously his marriage dynamic is different than yours was...even mine for that matter.

Edited May 29, 2011 by trippi1432

[2sunny]

2 Sunny...I've read Ruiz...many good books but interpretation is up to the person...and even more, up to how we interpret the perceived injustices against us. Let us let Nick digest the things he has read without influencing him....obviously his marriage dynamic is different than yours was.

 

 

obviously trippi!

 

everyone has a different interpretation of EVERYTHING... that why everyone's truth is their own! it's based on their experience and their perspective. i've read some of his books MANy times - and still get a lot of new info to work from every time i read.

 

Nick seems to be digesting perfectly well.

[trippi1432]

[/b]

 

 

obviously trippi!

 

everyone has a different interpretation of EVERYTHING... that why everyone's truth is their own! it's based on their experience and their perspective. i've read some of his books MANy times - and still get a lot of new info to work from every time i read.

 

Nick seems to be digesting perfectly well.

 

Of course new perspectives are gained...it all depends on what stage of healing you are in...every book that we read...everything that we learn...depends on stages. You speak from experience from your own realm...I speak from mine on my own too.

 

I've been following your thread Nick from the beginning...somewhere in the middle of those 25 years was a place that you cared about...that was good...right?