PinkInTheLimo Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 Pink, Well no question all of this is her point of view as well, and it is valid. But I take issue with a few things.* First, the last six months I have completely backed off on pressuring her about work, and all that's happened is her hours have increased and our family life has suffered more. If I WERE controlling, there would already have been lots of changes.* Second, no amount of job dedication can justify the damage she's doing to family and marriage. She has to own this. I am at my limit in terms of how much I can compromise, and how much I can give emotionally and logistically. Yet she persists in maintaining the same or worse schedule. I don't bring up the kids' suffering to her. I don't need to. She sees it every day.* It's not acceptable for her not to take down time in the midst of a family crisis. The lack of harmony in the house is not being addressed adequately, and can't be until she makes time to address it, to make it a priority. I am here and ready to talk. Our whole lives of late have been an attempt to work around her job demands, and we are failing. I have sacrificed a lot in my career for this family, and she has budged not more than one inch. I have seriously hurt my earning power and career trajectory to give her the space to achieve, abs the end result is that she resents me and dives into her work to avoid me.* Again, I can say from decades of experience that there is no way to control her. She does what she wants and barely ever listens to others for advice, even when she's headed for a breakdown. You're right that she probably will not change. I've done most if the changing over the years, and get so little consideration in return. No more. And sorry to say I completely agree with your last line.* Nick, what you want is absolutely valid. But it seems that the way you approach her about this, does not bring about any results. So you need to change your approach. Even giving up is a change of approach. Putting pressure on her will not help I think. We all know how people sometimes remain extremely stuck in their position if they feel attacked, and change things when they can do it out of their own choice. I think you have to accept that you cannot change her if she does not want it but that is what you are trying to do. For some reason she wants to spend all this time on her job. Why don't you just give up the fight. File for divorce and find an arrangement which allows you to spend a lot of time with your kids. This might actually suit you because she will feel less obliged towards the kids so that the time that she spends with them will actually be quality time. There is nothing wrong with such an arrangement. You will not get anywhere by telling her "you have to do this or that".
PinkInTheLimo Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 pink - read the whole thread... seems you may have skipped from the beginning to the end? I read more or less all of it. He won't get anywhere by telling her that she has to do this or that. He can tell her what kind of marriage he wants and ask her if she wants the same thing. If she doesn't, then it is divorce time. Maybe Nick's biggest problem is not his wife but his refusal to accept that he won't get what he wants in this marriage. It's up to him to decide what he will do in that case.
Ira Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 Maybe try thinking of it like this. Look in the mirror and picture these two situations. 1. Nothing or very little changes over the next 5 to 10 years with your marriage, how she is with the children, home, etc. 2. You divorce her and make SURE your rights as a parent are given to you. Look inside yourself and again see 5 to 10 years down the road. Which situation is best for everyone? I say everyone though that may not be a popular or modern aspect to consider. Too many people (in my opinion) only look at what is best for themselves. We bring children into this world and from that moment on ALL of our choices should be based on what is best for them as well as ourselves. Maybe a divorce would be best for your children? I don't know. Would you and her be "better" as in more effective/hands on parents divorced? Any ways, using this mirror vision has helped me with some of lifes tough choices as I hope it is for you.
Ira Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 PS: If you chose to stay then you have taken on the responsibility for changes. I don't mean changes in her. You will need to find back up care takers for when your ill or need some time off. You then will set the standard for how the chores are done and school activities etc are handled. The choice is yours, but remember the ball will always be in your court. That can be a good thing though, all depending on how you view it.
Author NickFeek Posted May 26, 2011 Author Posted May 26, 2011 Nick, what you want is absolutely valid. But it seems that the way you approach her about this, does not bring about any results. So you need to change your approach. Even giving up is a change of approach. Putting pressure on her will not help I think. We all know how people sometimes remain extremely stuck in their position if they feel attacked, and change things when they can do it out of their own choice. I think you have to accept that you cannot change her if she does not want it but that is what you are trying to do. For some reason she wants to spend all this time on her job. Why don't you just give up the fight. File for divorce and find an arrangement which allows you to spend a lot of time with your kids. This might actually suit you because she will feel less obliged towards the kids so that the time that she spends with them will actually be quality time. There is nothing wrong with such an arrangement. You will not get anywhere by telling her "you have to do this or that". You're right. For over a year I was putting pressure on her, and that didn't work. That's why I've taken a totally different approach the last six months. I am prepared to give up the fight. I'd like to put us both to the test through until the kids get out of school, and if no significant changes/improvements have become part of the fabric by then, it'll be time to go.
Author NickFeek Posted May 26, 2011 Author Posted May 26, 2011 I read more or less all of it. He won't get anywhere by telling her that she has to do this or that. He can tell her what kind of marriage he wants and ask her if she wants the same thing. If she doesn't, then it is divorce time. Maybe Nick's biggest problem is not his wife but his refusal to accept that he won't get what he wants in this marriage. It's up to him to decide what he will do in that case. You read more or less all of it? That could not have been easy! That's what I've been struggling with for years. And the next few weeks will be the time for both of us to figure out if we can achieve some kind of satisfying compatibility. If not, I know what we need to do.
Author NickFeek Posted May 26, 2011 Author Posted May 26, 2011 Maybe try thinking of it like this. Look in the mirror and picture these two situations. 1. Nothing or very little changes over the next 5 to 10 years with your marriage, how she is with the children, home, etc. 2. You divorce her and make SURE your rights as a parent are given to you. Look inside yourself and again see 5 to 10 years down the road. Which situation is best for everyone? I say everyone though that may not be a popular or modern aspect to consider. Too many people (in my opinion) only look at what is best for themselves. We bring children into this world and from that moment on ALL of our choices should be based on what is best for them as well as ourselves. Maybe a divorce would be best for your children? I don't know. Would you and her be "better" as in more effective/hands on parents divorced? Any ways, using this mirror vision has helped me with some of lifes tough choices as I hope it is for you. This may be the bigger struggle, moreso than accepting what we can & can't achieve as a married couple. I think that with no kids in the picture we would have separated in November. We chose not to move quickly on that mostly for their sakes. But now that they are starting to feel the stress, and are suffering more because of it, I'm not sure that us staying together is the best route. I've never been sure of that. BUT I'm also not sure that splitting up the family is the way to go. I know I would be ultimately more satisfied, and so hopefully a better parent. I can't speak for her, though I hope she'd step up to the challenge in ways she hasn't had to. One thing I can say, though, looking at 5-10 years from now as being exactly like it has been is a frightening prospect. So if it's clear nothing significant will change, I'm going to have to do the changing for us.
Author NickFeek Posted May 26, 2011 Author Posted May 26, 2011 PS: If you chose to stay then you have taken on the responsibility for changes. I don't mean changes in her. You will need to find back up care takers for when your ill or need some time off. You then will set the standard for how the chores are done and school activities etc are handled. The choice is yours, but remember the ball will always be in your court. That can be a good thing though, all depending on how you view it. I would be amenable to taking the reins on all this ONLY IF we were able to repair our failing interpersonal relationship. Short of that, it would be a whole lot of toil in the midst of a sad & lonely situation.
2sunny Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 tell me how last night went... what time was she in the door? what happened after she was home? have you thrown the sex requisite on the table yet?
Author NickFeek Posted May 26, 2011 Author Posted May 26, 2011 tell me how last night went... what time was she in the door? what happened after she was home? have you thrown the sex requisite on the table yet? She was in at 8:45, an hour later than she said. She put the kids to bed at my request. Overall it was a quiet night. No, nothing on the table yet because we had no chance to talk. But I sent her an email today telling her we have to have a list of actions and goals set out this weekend that we have until school's out to make real progress on. She said she thinks we may be more on the same page than I believe. I said I hope so, but that I need to see us changing things to believe that. She said we'll talk this weekend. I will bring up the sex & the work hours as necessities, and will probably have a good handful more - things we have to accomplish several times a week.
2sunny Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 She was in at 8:45, an hour later than she said. more words not matching her actions... = a liar by her own words. grrr how can she be believable when it never matches? She put the kids to bed at my request. Overall it was a quiet night. any review with your daughter that she agreed to? any time for you two to connect and converse? what did she DO after she was home? i'd love to understand exactly what she does do - and what she says once she's in the door... where does she spend her time and energy once she's home? No, nothing on the table yet because we had no chance to talk. must have said something once she was home... what is she saying to others and you- in the household? But I sent her an email today telling her we have to have a list of actions and goals set out this weekend that we have until school's out to make real progress on. more delays... more time to accomplish little - more time for empty words- why not now? school or no school - actually demands get higher when kids are out of school. She said she thinks we may be more on the same page than I believe. what does that mean exactly? what page is that? what exactly is her intention? to participate or to avoid? it's so vague that it means nothing! what exactly are HER intentions to CHANGE - what EXACTLY does SHE intend to DO to be sure THAT change is CARRIED OUT ON HER PART? how did she describe ALL of that? be specific about what she says she is going to be doing that's different - because THAT is the only way this is gonna start changing. IF you are the police to her - this is never going to work... she has to want to do it. forcing her will only make her more angry - so IF she's not willing to change - she won't make it HER priority. does she want change? i guess that's the first question - because IF she doesn't = don't bother. I said I hope so, but that I need to see us changing things to believe that. a change of 8:45 and no time to talk is not nearly enough to invoke change and interact with family on a level of adequacy. ask her what else she's got planned... She said we'll talk this weekend. awwww, more talking... more talking... more DELAYS... and more DELAYS by more talking... same old- same old... I will bring up the sex & the work hours as necessities, and will probably have a good handful more - things we have to accomplish several times a week. yep- at this point expect more talking for long delays of NO NEW ACTION. you two have a grand pattern here... that doesn't seem to be going anywhere. i'd love to encourage you on some level - but i'm just not seeing anything happening. she's bound to get mad that you are getting more demanding and cutting into her priority(work). maybe show up at dinnertime- at HER WORK - with the kids in tow. bring dinner there - tell everyone that will listen that her family needs to SEE her once in a while - so you will start bringing the family and the meal to her office! have the kids bring their homework too... have them ask her for help with the homework - take the family to her office a LOT - since SHE won't come home- maybe you all should go where she spends her time. see how that goes over!
Author NickFeek Posted May 26, 2011 Author Posted May 26, 2011 any review with your daughter that she agreed to? any time for you two to connect and converse? what did she DO after she was home? i'd love to understand exactly what she does do - and what she says once she's in the door... where does she spend her time and energy once she's home? more delays... more time to accomplish little - more time for empty words- why not now? school or no school - actually demands get higher when kids are out of school. what does that mean exactly? what page is that? what exactly is her intention? to participate or to avoid? it's so vague that it means nothing! what exactly are HER intentions to CHANGE - what EXACTLY does SHE intend to DO to be sure THAT change is CARRIED OUT ON HER PART? IF you are the police to her - this is never going to work... she has to want to do it. forcing her will only make her more angry - so IF she's not willing to change - she won't make it HER priority. does she want change? i guess that's the first question - because IF she doesn't = don't bother. you two have a grand pattern here... that doesn't seem to be going anywhere. she's bound to get mad that you are getting more demanding and cutting into her priority(work). I pulled out the parts I'd like to respond to. Based on how tough things were this morning between her and our daughter, I know there is very little understanding between them. She is fully aware of how this is hurting the kids, but is not aware of how much effort it will take on her part to change that. When she gets home, she eats dinner, takes care of the kids, and puts them to bed, at which point she also falls asleep. By that time of night, all I want to do is veg out all by myself, so I'm not looking to do much talking either. We are talking more during the day, however, both on the phone and email. You know I disagree with you on the talking point. I mean, how am I supposed to convey what my list of actions are without talking? And the fact that it doesn't happen immediately that night is no biggie to me, because I know it WILL happen, since it always does. And the reason I'm saying after school lets out is because A. If we do separate, the kids are done school so that's one less logistic to worry about; and B. I'm COUNTING ON the fact that demands will get higher once the kids are out, so whatever decision I make will have the greatest impact. But I DO agree with you that we have a grand pattern, and one BOTH of us are finding hard to break. As for the "same page", this is why today I told her the only way this will work is if we are VERY SPECIFIC about everything we need to do. As far as her being motivated to change, I don't want to be the police - I've tried that and it fails and exhausts me. I think what MAY be happening is that she is delaying her inevitable announcement that she really doesn't want to change much. And I need her to say it, own it, and know that I know it so she understands why I'll need to leave. The only other question to answer is will the changes she's WILLING to make be enough. My gut says no, and that's what the ACTION LIST and the next few weeks will prove or disprove. Yes, she's already getting upset about this cutting into her work. And if that has to be her breaking point, then so be it. I'm willing to keep handing duties off to her until she gets the point.
2sunny Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 i understand your points. can you do the dinner/homework idea at her office? start changing things up. maybe you should go on a holiday for a few days or a week - right away... don't you have some family or a friend that needs you for an emergency right now? wink wink! just saying - she MAY actually do different IF you HAD to go away for some emergency pronto! she would be FORCED to play a role she's avoiding at all cost.
Author NickFeek Posted May 26, 2011 Author Posted May 26, 2011 i understand your points. can you do the dinner/homework idea at her office? start changing things up. maybe you should go on a holiday for a few days or a week - right away... don't you have some family or a friend that needs you for an emergency right now? wink wink! just saying - she MAY actually do different IF you HAD to go away for some emergency pronto! she would be FORCED to play a role she's avoiding at all cost. There have been a few times when I've taken the kids down to her building. But security won't let you in unless you have an escort, and if she's unavailable by phone or email (as she usually is), we end up just stuck in the lobby waiting until she gets our message, which can be a looong time. The second idea is great. I purposely scheduled myself for a business trip back in March. It was a giant break for me, and overall she handled it well. The only down side was that the "makeup work" she had to do to catch up after that week kept her at the office late every night the following week. There's always a price . But now that things are in a more heated & crucial place, I think I should do that again. I've also considered scheduling a weekend away for just us, and maybe "forget" her Blackberry charger, so that she has no choice but to focus on me/us.
2sunny Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 ok- make it this weekend... holiday weekend, right? no time like the present.
2sunny Posted May 26, 2011 Posted May 26, 2011 schedule AHEAD then - for her to meet you all in the lobby three nights a week for your "family dinnertime" at her office. no grumbling! she needs to interact with all of you more often. it will serve many purposes... you can make her office people aware that she isn't home enough to have time with her family you can see what her energy is while you are in her work environment you can see who interacts with her while you're there you can see what her work load looks like you can see if she enjoys her family time or if she is rushed to get you all out of there you can see if she lovingly embraces you all making an effort to come to her you can see who makes a point of acknowledging you as her family you can show her work folks that she DOES actually and should have a life outside of her work environment schedule it - then take food and the days events to her several times every week!
Author NickFeek Posted May 27, 2011 Author Posted May 27, 2011 schedule AHEAD then - for her to meet you all in the lobby three nights a week for your "family dinnertime" at her office. no grumbling! she needs to interact with all of you more often. it will serve many purposes... you can make her office people aware that she isn't home enough to have time with her family you can see what her energy is while you are in her work environment you can see who interacts with her while you're there you can see what her work load looks like you can see if she enjoys her family time or if she is rushed to get you all out of there you can see if she lovingly embraces you all making an effort to come to her you can see who makes a point of acknowledging you as her family you can show her work folks that she DOES actually and should have a life outside of her work environment schedule it - then take food and the days events to her several times every week! Good idea. I'm going to shoot for twice a week. And the weekend away, that's something we have to plan in advance too. We'd need to line up babysitting, etc. I'm shooting for June.
2sunny Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 ben thinking about this... you are her babysitter for the children she birthed. she's just unwilling to tell you that. if you are ok with that "arrangement" then stay - if not, then leave.
Author NickFeek Posted May 27, 2011 Author Posted May 27, 2011 ben thinking about this... you are her babysitter for the children she birthed. she's just unwilling to tell you that. if you are ok with that "arrangement" then stay - if not, then leave. I can bear the childcare, because I love them and there is a certain balance to me working less & being home more. BUT that would only work if A. she can cut back her hours at work even a bit each day/week; and B. she & I connect more interpersonally. JUST being a "babysitter" is basically how it's been, and that's no life for a husband/lover.
2sunny Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 I can bear the childcare, because I love them and there is a certain balance to me working less & being home more. BUT that would only work if A. she can cut back her hours at work even a bit each day/week; and B. she & I connect more interpersonally. JUST being a "babysitter" is basically how it's been, and that's no life for a husband/lover. well, it's been 5 or 6 more weeks that have passed since you first brought this up - only blame yourself for continuing to live with it - and using words to complain about it when nothing seems to change.
Author NickFeek Posted May 27, 2011 Author Posted May 27, 2011 well, it's been 5 or 6 more weeks that have passed since you first brought this up - only blame yourself for continuing to live with it - and using words to complain about it when nothing seems to change. I agree, sadly. But I can also say the real change is just beginning, with much more on the way. And if that DOESN'T mean from her, then it DOES mean from me.
2sunny Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 I agree, sadly. But I can also say the real change is just beginning, with much more on the way. And if that DOESN'T mean from her, then it DOES mean from me. coming home at 845 or 9pm is adequate? keeping school age kids up to do homework with Mom starting after 9pm is best? i really don't understand you justifying her bad behavior - and inability to consider her kids best interest. the only one she thinks of is herself... that is NOT what love looks like. she may just be the most narcissistic woman i've seen here and i've seen a lot here in the last 6 years... she takes the cake.
Author NickFeek Posted May 27, 2011 Author Posted May 27, 2011 coming home at 845 or 9pm is adequate? keeping school age kids up to do homework with Mom starting after 9pm is best? i really don't understand you justifying her bad behavior - and inability to consider her kids best interest. the only one she thinks of is herself... that is NOT what love looks like. she may just be the most narcissistic woman i've seen here and i've seen a lot here in the last 6 years... she takes the cake. No that's all part of what MUST change, and if it doesn't then I will not stay. I'm saying that if she were to come home at more reasonable times, I'd still be okay taking care of the kids more often. BUT I do know that's a big if, and so far she has NOT come through. And again, that would also have to include more personal time for just the two of us. I don't know why, but I really have such a hard time seeing her as harshly as you do. Don't know if I'm over-painting the picture, or if I'm not seeing the forest for the trees, or if as my dad says I seem to see things as an abused spouse would. I'd be so curious to know what you think of her in person.
2sunny Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 No that's all part of what MUST change, and if it doesn't then I will not stay. I'm saying that if she were to come home at more reasonable times, I'd still be okay taking care of the kids more often. BUT I do know that's a big if, and so far she has NOT come through. And again, that would also have to include more personal time for just the two of us. I don't know why, but I really have such a hard time seeing her as harshly as you do. Don't know if I'm over-painting the picture, or if I'm not seeing the forest for the trees, or if as my dad says I seem to see things as an abused spouse would. I'd be so curious to know what you think of her in person. none of it matters - i'm going off of her actions. you don't seem to be acknowledging her actions (or inactions) as much as you should. she gives words (promises) then doesn't do what she says. you are married to a gal that constantly lies about what she will do. yet you don't see it. she may act nice in person... but she needs to knowing she's told you lies. read the book Nick - the first agreement is "be impeccable with your word" neither one of you do this first agreement well... as you keep promising yourself certain things too - then no follow through - just more excuses and waiting on empty words. read that book today!
tojaz Posted May 27, 2011 Posted May 27, 2011 Nick, why do you think she chooses to work late all the time?
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