2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 because of the work I've been doing to figure it all out, both here and with family & friends, as well as with my wife. Nick - here's the problem - YOU are left THINKING... thinking only gets you so far! let HER do some of it! let HER do all of it for a while - and see what she comes up with. step away from it... YOU figuring it all out - is a far cry from change. it's called a partnership for a good reason. and no, you are wrong... you HAVE been talking about this now for 5 SOLID weeks = it's just that you two haven't been DOING anything different. DON'T DO ONE THING THE SAME! then things might start to change! ACTION! CONTRARY ACTION is what will change things. you are in so much denial - you are even convincing yourself that you have been doing something. all you've DONE is talk - and that is NOTHING! talk doesn't change ONE thing!!!!! you have plenty of evidence of that! do either one of you drink or do drugs? i'm just asking - cuz the drinking/drug world looks like this - all talk and NO action! which equates to NO CHANGE! what is it Nick- cuz somewhere i see a huge roadblock to the action part of this equation coming together...
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 But a question for you and everyone else here: Would moves like you & 2sunny are proposing be tantamount to a declaration of war? Would they be unnecessarily stirring the pot before the stew is cooked? Or are these meant to be shows of strength & autonomy, a way to correct the balance of things? stop thinking so much Nick - start doing anything different!!!!!!!!!!!! sheez!
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, what war? you are simply going to be too ill to do anything but get yourself to and from the bathroom for the next 7 days. Your wife will need to either do everything herself or pay outsiders to do it for her.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 Nick - here's the problem - YOU are left THINKING... thinking only gets you so far! let HER do some of it! let HER do all of it for a while - and see what she comes up with. step away from it... YOU figuring it all out - is a far cry from change. it's called a partnership for a good reason. and no, you are wrong... you HAVE been talking about this now for 5 SOLID weeks = it's just that you two haven't been DOING anything different. DON'T DO ONE THING THE SAME! then things might start to change! ACTION! CONTRARY ACTION is what will change things. you are in so much denial - you are even convincing yourself that you have been doing something. all you've DONE is talk - and that is NOTHING! talk doesn't change ONE thing!!!!! you have plenty of evidence of that! do either one of you drink or do drugs? i'm just asking - cuz the drinking/drug world looks like this - all talk and NO action! which equates to NO CHANGE! what is it Nick- cuz somewhere i see a huge roadblock to the action part of this equation coming together... No, no drinking or drugs on either end. There IS a huge roadblock. But I can't pinpoint what it is, other than the standard learned helplessness / codependency. And fear of being without her. It's possible to change things other than action items, such as tone/emotion. THAT has changed quite a bit for both of us. It puts us in a place where we're better able to work together to figure it out, and that's where we've come to since last weekend. I do agree that it has to be a partnership, and that's something she brought up last weekend. She said she thinks our work would be more productive if I stopped talking so much to others & started talking more to her. Now, I think that's true, that the real work needs to be done between us & not alone, but she framed it in the context of me stopping this forum completely (among other new restrictions), which I refused to do. I get the feeling she wants to keep things "in-house" so that she's better able to control them, also the reason why she won't go to counseling. I then told her that I completely agree, but how are we supposed to accomplish that kind of talking if she's never available. She said she'd make herself more available, which so far she's done. Remains to be seen how long that lasts, but I'm willing to let her take a shot at it. Based on how we talked, it was obvious she HAD done some thinking, and that she has come out of her deep funk about the cheating. She was more able to talk in detail about our intimate life, and we were better able to articulate how we'd like the future to go. She also admitted she does not agree with her father's assessment of me. I know she'll be quick to retreat yet again, and that I'll have to remind her to keep this up, but again I'm willing to give her a shot.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 stop thinking so much Nick - start doing anything different!!!!!!!!!!!! sheez! Ha now that was a funny post. I can feel your frustration bleed through the screen. I hear you both - acts like this are not punitive. I guess it's that she thinks they ARE punitive. Maybe the roadblock is that for me to hold onto my right to change things, I need to completely reclassify what our relationship has been, and that's a HUGE shift.
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, tell her that if she's committed to the marriage that she pick 2 days or evenings each week that she agree's that she will come home, mix you guys some drinks,grab a shower & slip into a sex kitten outfit & provide you with sex, hot,raw, no holds barred and she will at least pretend to be enthusiastic about it. You want an agreement to jumpstart a normal x2 per week sexual intimacy schedule starting now.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, tell her that if she's committed to the marriage that she pick 2 days or evenings each week that she agree's that she will come home, mix you guys some drinks,grab a shower & slip into a sex kitten outfit & provide you with sex, hot,raw, no holds barred and she will at least pretend to be enthusiastic about it. You want an agreement to jumpstart a normal x2 per week sexual intimacy schedule starting now. This is brilliant, and something I'm absolutely going to suggest. But it also makes me laugh a little (and not in a good way), because wayyyyy back in January she said she was going to make a point of coming home early twice a week, to help with the kids & dinner, and give us time together both as a family & as a couple. The first night of her plan she was earlier than normal, but 45 minutes later than she quoted. I ended up cooking dinner because the kids were starving. The second night ... never came about. That plan was forgotten as quickly as it was conceived. It also makes me cry a little, because the ONLY time I've ever had sex like that in my ENTIRE life was September 5, 2010. And it wasn't with my wife. We've never come close to that kind of sex. BUT I'M STILL going to suggest this. Because really, if something like this CAN'T happen regularly, this life of ours has to end. She gets this chance, and I will do all I can on my end to facilitate it. But then that's got to be it.
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, what war? you are simply going to be too ill to do anything but get yourself to and from the bathroom for the next 7 days. Your wife will need to either do everything herself or pay outsiders to do it for her. Nick, tell her that if she's committed to the marriage that she pick 2 days or evenings each week that she agree's that she will come home, mix you guys some drinks,grab a shower & slip into a sex kitten outfit & provide you with sex, hot,raw, no holds barred and she will at least pretend to be enthusiastic about it. You want an agreement to jumpstart a normal x2 per week sexual intimacy schedule starting now. YEP!!!! let's see what she's made of! YOU are sick - except for sex! let her see what she's gonna do! step away and allow her room to participate. when YOU aren't doing it all - someone will need to DO something! let her figure it out - she WILL - when YOU stop it! so just stop! and this: more productive if I stopped talking so much to others & started talking more to her. do you see that? all she wants is TALK! she intends to DO nothing! that should tell you everything you need to know... but you refuse to take the answer she's given all along = let's just talk about it - but change nothing... cuz i like it when YOU do everything and i go to work, work, work. she's NOT doing it. did she come home early last night? did she make dinner, do dishes, laundry, homework with the kids or get them ready for bed - anything, anything different? or did she leave all that to you again - just like before? where was the change - given she now knows you want action? let's leave more talking out - as that is nothing new.
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 This is brilliant, and something I'm absolutely going to suggest. But it also makes me laugh a little (and not in a good way), because wayyyyy back in January she said she was going to make a point of coming home early twice a week, to help with the kids & dinner, and give us time together both as a family & as a couple. The first night of her plan she was earlier than normal, but 45 minutes later than she quoted. I ended up cooking dinner because the kids were starving. The second night ... never came about. That plan was forgotten as quickly as it was conceived. It also makes me cry a little, because the ONLY time I've ever had sex like that in my ENTIRE life was September 5, 2010. And it wasn't with my wife. We've never come close to that kind of sex. BUT I'M STILL going to suggest this. Because really, if something like this CAN'T happen regularly, this life of ours has to end. She gets this chance, and I will do all I can on my end to facilitate it. But then that's got to be it. Nick, things like rebalanced housework can happen easily by hiring a little help and teaching the kids that just because they want to do something doesn't mean their wants will always come before the work needs of the 2 adults in the family. The sex issue though I suspect is the real core issue, you can of course offer to meet her halfway by being open to sex later in the evenings or on Sat mornings but if she can't agree to begin having regular sex again & follow up on that promise consistently the marriage is doomed.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 YEP!!!! let's see what she's made of! YOU are sick - except for sex! let her see what she's gonna do! step away and allow her room to participate. when YOU aren't doing it all - someone will need to DO something! let her figure it out - she WILL - when YOU stop it! so just stop! and this: do you see that? all she wants is TALK! she intends to DO nothing! that should tell you everything you need to know... but you refuse to take the answer she's given all along = let's just talk about it - but change nothing... cuz i like it when YOU do everything and i go to work, work, work. she's NOT doing it. did she come home early last night? did she make dinner, do dishes, laundry, homework with the kids or get them ready for bed - anything, anything different? or did she leave all that to you again - just like before? where was the change - given she now knows you want action? let's leave more talking out - as that is nothing new. No she got home after 10pm last night. I was not happy and I told her so. I'm rarely sick and that was just not thoughtful or compassionate. Then she complained this morning about a couple of balls that were dropped last night (things we forgot relating to school), and I just hung up on her. My prediction is she'll find that she's smack up in the face of her intentions and her actual actions for the first time in her adult life, and she will not like what I'm going to do with that.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, things like rebalanced housework can happen easily by hiring a little help and teaching the kids that just because they want to do something doesn't mean their wants will always come before the work needs of the 2 adults in the family. The sex issue though I suspect is the real core issue, you can of course offer to meet her halfway by being open to sex later in the evenings or on Sat mornings but if she can't agree to begin having regular sex again & follow up on that promise consistently the marriage is doomed. We're definitely like that with the kids (not so much the 2-year-old but the older ones). I'm careful to balance my home time between doing things with & for them, and doing things for myself. The sex? Yes, that has to change NOW to a large enough degree to give me hope that it's going to continue to be a part of our lives all the time. If not, I completely agree that the marriage is doomed.
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, another thing you can begin to do is this, when the kids come, ask to be taken places etc, pleasantly say "I know for a fact that your Mom would love to help you with that and redirect them to her" you can also do things like schedule consult meetings for your business on nites you know there are important school functions etc, you then tell the kids "I'm so sorry Daddy has an important meeting but Mom can get free & I know she'll want to be there" key here is that at times you are PLEASANT, the children never hear you say things like "go ask your fscking lazy mother" start dropping the children off at her office "Dear, I have to meet with an important client" the children will be sittnig happily in the waiting room during these conversations.
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, things like rebalanced housework can happen easily by hiring a little help and teaching the kids that just because they want to do something doesn't mean their wants will always come before the work needs of the 2 adults in the family. The sex issue though I suspect is the real core issue, you can of course offer to meet her halfway by being open to sex later in the evenings or on Sat mornings but if she can't agree to begin having regular sex again & follow up on that promise consistently the marriage is doomed. i agree - she has used the NO SEX- as a power play. to withhold sex within a marriage is not healthy. when my then H cheated on me - i had to get to a place where i participated again..,. without the anger. letting go of the anger was good. she withholds as a way of punishing you - that is NOT nice or useful... not loving behavior. her MO seems to be to punish you - why? why come from a punishing place instead of a loving place? i think her intent seems off... intent to punish instead of building someone up to help them be stronger, more purposeful, more loving? it's terribly backwards... we should all be better off for knowing others... to be stronger - more loving people for knowing others - for helping each other. not to be beaten down and feel terrible about doing enough for 2 or 3 people during a days time and be too exhausted and angry and bitter because of it. we should help each other to lighten the load and not be so dragged down - but spirits lifted because someone else cared enough to help out - to lighten the burden... THAT is what life is about! sharing! sharing it all, good and bad...but WITH another so it's manageable... and HAPPY! it's not possible tho - if she's unwilling to participate and help... by at least doing something.
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 No she got home after 10pm last night. I was not happy and I told her so. I'm rarely sick and that was just not thoughtful or compassionate. Then she complained this morning about a couple of balls that were dropped last night (things we forgot relating to school), and I just hung up on her. My prediction is she'll find that she's smack up in the face of her intentions and her actual actions for the first time in her adult life, and she will not like what I'm going to do with that. 10? sheez Nick - that after the TALK this weekend? her intent is to DO nothing at home! look at the facts. she's not going to DO this! get sick - get REALLY sick! get so sick that YOU can't do ONE thing! LET HER DO IT! she will fiure it ut when she HAS to!!!!!! until then - she's gonna dump it ALL on you! and YOU are going to ALLOW it all! THEN she may figure out something!
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 No she got home after 10pm last night. I was not happy and I told her so. I'm rarely sick and that was just not thoughtful or compassionate. Then she complained this morning about a couple of balls that were dropped last night (things we forgot relating to school), and I just hung up on her. My prediction is she'll find that she's smack up in the face of her intentions and her actual actions for the first time in her adult life, and she will not like what I'm going to do with that. She came home after 10pm even knowing you were ill? If it were me I'd be dropping the children off at her office this afternoon,I would be telling her that from now on I was going to function as a traditional husband ie: you will work your 1st and 2nd jobs,you will take out the trash & mow the lawn and watch the kids 2 nites per month so she can have "girl's nite out" but that every other blessed activity required to care for your children and home was now on her. Then I'd leave her to write her briefs with a 2 yr old crawling all over her desk.
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 soserious1;3418317]She came home after 10pm even knowing you were ill? this is just so mean i can't believe it. what a selfish woman. even my narcissistic exH didn't do things this mean and self serving. close - but not quite... i always felt alone, even though i was with him. he figured his money should be enough. If it were me I'd be dropping the children off at her office this afternoon,I would be telling her that from now on I was going to function as a traditional husband ie: you will work your 1st and 2nd jobs,you will take out the trash & mow the lawn and watch the kids 2 nites per month so she can have "girl's nite out" but that every other blessed activity required to care for your children and home was now on her. Then I'd leave her to write her briefs with a 2 yr old crawling all over her desk. THAT would be change! THAT would be action! that would be you growing some balls and telling her you aren't gonna take being her doormat anymore! she's mean. and you allow it. get mad - you deserve to be mad. she can hire help if she doesn't like it... at least THAT would be change.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 [/b] i agree - she has used the NO SEX- as a power play. to withhold sex within a marriage is not healthy. when my then H cheated on me - i had to get to a place where i participated again..,. without the anger. letting go of the anger was good. she withholds as a way of punishing you - that is NOT nice or useful... not loving behavior. her MO seems to be to punish you - why? why come from a punishing place instead of a loving place? i think her intent seems off... intent to punish instead of building someone up to help them be stronger, more purposeful, more loving? it's terribly backwards... we should all be better off for knowing others... to be stronger - more loving people for knowing others - for helping each other. not to be beaten down and feel terrible about doing enough for 2 or 3 people during a days time and be too exhausted and angry and bitter because of it. we should help each other to lighten the load and not be so dragged down - but spirits lifted because someone else cared enough to help out - to lighten the burden... THAT is what life is about! sharing! sharing it all, good and bad...but WITH another so it's manageable... and HAPPY! it's not possible tho - if she's unwilling to participate and help... by at least doing something. Yes, I cornered her on this subject over the weekend. I have said that I haven't been a perfect person. I've made mistakes. Never cheating, but other things. I told her on Sunday I think she's been pulling away from me for years for things she can't forgive me for. I acknowledged that I have played a hand in making it harder for her to open up. But I also stressed that before all this, during the quiet/good times, she also had trouble opening up. So that this has been inside of her forever. During her first professional law job, her boss verbally harassed her ALL THE TIME. Never physical, but lots of suggestive talk. He was the kind of predator who could find a woman's weakness & exploit it. He must have sensed she was sensitive about sex/etc., and really went for the jugular. She was depressed for years after, and did both meds & therapy. I told her at the time that, while I agreed he was a monster, her response to his aggressive words had something to do with her. She eventually sued, and this was in our lives until 2001 (nearly ten years). I don't think she's ever fully recovered. Couple that with her intimacy issues from the beginning, and my missteps along the way, and it's unlikely she'll be able to shake out of this.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 I appreciate you both sticking up for me on this. It's a mark of how codependent our relationship is that I just knew she would do this, despite whatever she was saying on the phone, and that I'd do whatever I needed to do to pick up the pieces. I AM mad, and I told her that this morning. It kills me that 99% of the time she chooses work over everything else. I stand by what I said in the earlier post, which is that she's going to have to face the fact that her follow-through falls way short of her intentions, and the consequences will be dire.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 you can't DO it for her Nick. I know I know. And all these years I thought I could.
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) I appreciate you both sticking up for me on this. It's a mark of how codependent our relationship is that I just knew she would do this, despite whatever she was saying on the phone, and that I'd do whatever I needed to do to pick up the pieces. I AM mad, and I told her that this morning. It kills me that 99% of the time she chooses work over everything else. I stand by what I said in the earlier post, which is that she's going to have to face the fact that her follow-through falls way short of her intentions, and the consequences will be dire. You know what? As busy as I am when my ex was ill for several months with a bad back, I made arrangements to have the house cleaned, on Sundays I cook & froze simple meals for the week. I also managed to leave work on several occasions to drive him to the doctor, take him for MRI's etc. By coming home after 10pm even knowing you were ill, your wife has declared war Nick, personally,if it were me those kids would be on their way to her office right now. I would be too sick to do another damned thing for the next month. She values her career above all else? fine, then showing up every night when it's her turn to cook dinner, help with homework, do the kids baths etc and dropping them off with her will fix the problem. She needs to know that you will not hesitate to drop the kids off with her and that you will say things like "they are hungry, you promised to have dinner an hour ago" She doesn't want to be embarrassed at her job?then it's on her to either get home and tend to things or to pay somebody else to do so. Edited May 24, 2011 by soserious1
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 You know what? As busy as I am when my ex was ill for several months with a bad back, I made arrangements to have the house cleaned, on Sundays I cook & froze simple meals for the week. I also managed to leave work on several occasions to drive him to the doctor, take him for MRI's etc. By coming home after 10pm even knowing you were ill, your wife has declared war Nick, personally,if it were me those kids would be on their way to her office right now. I would be too sick to do another damned thing for the next month. She values her career above all else? fine, then showing up every night when it's her turn to cook dinner, help with homework, do the kids baths etc and dropping them off with her will fix the problem. She needs to know that you will not hesitate to drop the kids off with her and that you will say things like "they are hungry, you promised to have dinner an hour ago" She doesn't want to be embarrassed at her job?then it's on her to either get home and tend to things or to pay somebody else to do so. RIGHT ON! now THAT would be change! what if YOU died today Nick? think about that! what would she do? she would FIND A WAY to DO these things! i got REALLY sick after my divorce - and you know what? people helped! they helped with my kids, my house and life! i found out what life would look like IF i did die... it was amazing! i am replaceable... but many had to help! it was awesome! i was DOING the work of ten people... and it had to stop because it literally almost took my life... but it certainly did take all my happiness away back then - i may as well have been dead! i started to DO life differently when i was getting well - i learned what good balance looks like each day. i let others take care of what was their responsibility instead of trying to do me AND them. pretend as if you aren't there! let her get food, make meals, drop off at school and get them to appointments! she will figure it all out when you stop doing it... i guarantee it. you can get busy working! YOU can be as absent as she is! THEN she will HAVE to DO somethings differently! get started - invoke the change YOU want to see! when you DO less = she WILL BE FORCED TO DO MORE... yet YOU keep doing it all... get busy working - or BE sick! something. but don't do things the same as you always have.
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 2sunny, I've NEVER had the experience of having anybody step in to help out ever, even when recovering from surgery I had to find & pay for help and of course still continue to make sure all the bills were paid. Truth be told I kind of prefer it that way at this point in time.
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 2sunny, I've NEVER had the experience of having anybody step in to help out ever, even when recovering from surgery I had to find & pay for help and of course still continue to make sure all the bills were paid. Truth be told I kind of prefer it that way at this point in time. i totally understand. but i was doing for myself and several others - and taking myself down the whole time - not good balance... it was BAD! everything had to change in order for me to live again... this balance is much better/happier... i was DOING toooooo much!
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) i totally understand. but i was doing for myself and several others - and taking myself down the whole time - not good balance... it was BAD! everything had to change in order for me to live again... this balance is much better/happier... i was DOING toooooo much! I don't think you understand, I reared children totally alone, I cannot remember a single instance of anybody doing anything for me or them if they weren't paid to do so. I've always been responsible for myself & for large chunks of my life responsible for providing for the needs of others. The idea of anybody 'stepping in" to do anything I haven't paid them to do is completely foreign to me lol Edited May 24, 2011 by soserious1
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