soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 That's a pretty heartfelt & accurate assessment of our situation. I wouldn't be surprised if she'd want to be a judge one day - she'd be great at that. And I agree that our differences magnified as we grew as individuals over the years. We in part ignored this & in part just got used to it among all the hectic kid & work things. And yes, the affair has blown EVERYTHING out into the open. A horrible way to do it, but hopefully it will amount to exposing more truth & setting up more successful & happy futures for both of us. And that second paragraph - it's hard to hear but I can't dispute it at all. When we were teens & in our 20s, I would never have guessed she'd come down on that side of things, but that's how people change. Nick, you are NOT wrong for wanting a different way of life, nor is she wrong for living & breathing the law.You are both looking at issues you've identified as core to your happiness.In order for the marriage to continue on, somebody's going to have to give up what they believe is a central part of themselves. . that's what makes this sad. You guys over the years just kind of drifted, the marriage going along in n uneasy peace as long as these differences weren't spoken aloud. Now that the negotiation is on the table both sides are discovering they aren't willing to make the trade off's demanded by the other to keep the marriage going. She's not willing to give up her career ambitions & the hours that go with it, you aren't willing to continue being married to someone who is so career oriented. All I can say is I'm sorry, hope the two of you can work things out so that you can part company in a dignified,respectful way. I also hope that you find a relationship with a woman who works to live instead of living to work.
Author NickFeek Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 Nick, you are NOT wrong for wanting a different way of life, nor is she wrong for living & breathing the law.You are both looking at issues you've identified as core to your happiness.In order for the marriage to continue on, somebody's going to have to give up what they believe is a central part of themselves. . that's what makes this sad. You guys over the years just kind of drifted, the marriage going along in n uneasy peace as long as these differences weren't spoken aloud. Now that the negotiation is on the table both sides are discovering they aren't willing to make the trade off's demanded by the other to keep the marriage going. She's not willing to give up her career ambitions & the hours that go with it, you aren't willing to continue being married to someone who is so career oriented. All I can say is I'm sorry, hope the two of you can work things out so that you can part company in a dignified,respectful way. I also hope that you find a relationship with a woman who works to live instead of living to work. Thank you, and I agree. If things go the way they're going, I might copy this post & hang it on my wall.
Mauschen Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Hi Nick, I have honestly not read your entire thread due to lack of time, but I want to let you know about the book His Needs Her Needs. It talks a lot about infidelity and how to meet the needs of each spouse. It was very helpful to me to understand what the needs of my husband are and how to meet them. It sounds like your wife might not read it, but if you read it and start trying to meet her needs, then maybe she'll be open to reading it and meeting your needs in the marriage. Since there has been infidelity on your part, I suggest being very patient. Throwing away 25+ years is a huge mistake.
Author NickFeek Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 Hi Nick, I have honestly not read your entire thread due to lack of time, but I want to let you know about the book His Needs Her Needs. It talks a lot about infidelity and how to meet the needs of each spouse. It was very helpful to me to understand what the needs of my husband are and how to meet them. It sounds like your wife might not read it, but if you read it and start trying to meet her needs, then maybe she'll be open to reading it and meeting your needs in the marriage. Since there has been infidelity on your part, I suggest being very patient. Throwing away 25+ years is a huge mistake. Hi Mauschen. Thanks for weighing in. I don't blame you got not reading all 36 pages! This sounds like another book I read, also addressing differing needs in a marriage. We have definitely been talking about this, and sad to say we seem to be in agreement that we may be unable to meet each other's needs. And we haven't been for quite a while, possibly not ever to a large enough degree. I've also been reluctant to throw away such an investment, principally because in many ways we still love each other and work together, but I'm afraid some core needs will never be addressed for either of us. Yes I've been patient, and will continue to be, because I know what an awful place I put my wife in. But even amidst that, our talks of the future are not very promising. You may be able to tell I'm still holding out an iota of hope that things will come around, but things she's said recently have led me to conclude that this is probably the end.
Ira Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 I hope your wrong and that your talk goes better then expected this weekend. I somehow missed her unwillingness to do some vital things to help repair and grow the marriage. I know if my DH cheated on me I would divorce him. BUT wait! I am not saying she should divorce you as of the cheating. I am saying I myself would be so angry I know I would make him pay forever and we would have a very ugly marriage. So it would at the end of everything end in divorce. Maybe that is what she is doing, making you pay. As much as I am against cheating, it comes down to there either is forgiveness and growth or a divorce. Wish you the best with your situation.
2sunny Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 I hope your wrong and that your talk goes better then expected this weekend. I somehow missed her unwillingness to do some vital things to help repair and grow the marriage. I know if my DH cheated on me I would divorce him. BUT wait! I am not saying she should divorce you as of the cheating. I am saying I myself would be so angry I know I would make him pay forever and we would have a very ugly marriage. So it would at the end of everything end in divorce. Maybe that is what she is doing, making you pay. As much as I am against cheating, it comes down to there either is forgiveness and growth or a divorce. Wish you the best with your situation. i don't see it as"making him pay" - mainly because it was this way before he cheated - and, ultimately what made him feel abandoned emotionally in the M. her absence and lack of communicating/participating is what got him to this point. even after begging her to adjust and participate more - she simply won't. as like energy goes -if you ignore someone long enough - they will go away. it seems her style and choice not to participate in the day to day household activities and obligations... but it doesn't necessarily mean that S&C needs to go along with it for the rest of his life if her style doesn't bring any happiness to his daily life. she may actually be happier in the long run if they split - since she may spend plenty of time feeling guilty about not participating on a level he obviously wants and knows full well she never intends to give him what he desires. it may bring a sense of freedom to both of them if they can be civil and adjust to change as they move forward.
Author NickFeek Posted May 22, 2011 Author Posted May 22, 2011 Thank you everyone. Had a big talk last night & this morning. Interesting things came to light. I can discuss more later.
2sunny Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 ok... "interesting things came to light" must mean you now realize things you didn't before - and have developed a plan to address and change things - since it's something new that you know now. what's your plan?
Author NickFeek Posted May 23, 2011 Author Posted May 23, 2011 ok... "interesting things came to light" must mean you now realize things you didn't before - and have developed a plan to address and change things - since it's something new that you know now. what's your plan? That's fairly accurate. She came to the table with more than I expected her to, though still not as much as I would have liked. I won't say that anything new was discovered, but what changed was that we are now no longer in "cheating processing" mode, if that makes any sense. We are on a more level playing field. Her tone has changed from completely negative to about where mine is - half and half. She has vowed to talk with me every night from now on, with the objective being to uncover all the past & present details -good and bad - of our marriage and us as individuals, and then determine what that means for our future - i.e. is it worth it to stay or better to go. This is part of our plan to make sure we leave no stone unturned, and we give this our utmost effort. This way if things somehow work out, we're not in danger of reverting to old habits; or if things have to end we know we did everything we could - for us and the kids. She also admitted she has not been nearly as attentive & responsive as she should be, and has vowed to change that. I still have reservations: counseling is off the table indefinitely; I won't be convinced she'll follow through with these "vows" until they actually happen; she's still holding fairly firm on no changes to her work schedule; there are still a handful of issues we're both standing our ground on that seem to eliminate the possibility of compromise; we're not sure either of us can slough off the baggage of our history; we still don't completely trust each other (for different reasons); and I'm not sure EITHER of us can change/modify enough to find that middle space where we can both live contentedly. The good thing is I voiced all of those reservations to her (and more). And I made it clear to her that I am not and will never be the man she wishes I could be, that most of the things she's always disliked/distrusted about me will continue to exist. I'm not pulling any punches. I'm not making it easy for her by caving or equivocating or agreeing to things I can't live with. And she's being blunt and honest with me as well - about the cheating, our history, her ideas for the future, how she feels about me in general. My gut is still about the same, which is that there is SO MUCH stuff to work through, and so many potential roadblocks & impasses, that I'm not very confident or hopeful we'll be together - actually said THAT to her too. So my plan is: uncover all the details & feelings we can; reassess once all that's done; monitor how her/our behavior changes (if at all); and take it from there. It's probably not as proactive as you would recommend, but as some have said here, with kids & 25 years involved, we owe it to everyone in the family to wring out every last possible drop of hope.
2sunny Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 ok - looks like some honesty has been expressed... now let's see what kind of action (change) happens RIGHT AWAY - that makes cause for hope. if nothing changes = nothing changes... if things remain the same after all those words... it's all just empty words and MUCH complacency. change is good.
Author NickFeek Posted May 23, 2011 Author Posted May 23, 2011 ok - looks like some honesty has been expressed... now let's see what kind of action (change) happens RIGHT AWAY - that makes cause for hope. if nothing changes = nothing changes... if things remain the same after all those words... it's all just empty words and MUCH complacency. change is good. Very true! Many things in our talks felt good in that more air & light was present. I do hope there's enough follow-through. And if there's not I'll have the definitive answer I've been looking for, which will make my decision & actions easier to proceed with.
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 expect change right away... if it doesn't happen NOW - it's never gonna happen. even if a day is missed... there is no intention to change things. anyone asking for change (action, as words aren't enough) isn't talking about next week or next month - they are talking about right now.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 expect change right away... if it doesn't happen NOW - it's never gonna happen. even if a day is missed... there is no intention to change things. anyone asking for change (action, as words aren't enough) isn't talking about next week or next month - they are talking about right now. This is oddly encouraging. I'm willing to grant some stutter starts on change due to our hectic schedules (and I'm sick right now!). But to have the courage & confidence to expect change to happen right away alleviates a lot of my apprehensions about entering into this "agreement". I will let everyone know how things are progressing. Thanks.
lovingwhatis Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 "Do, or do not. There is no try." Yoda Nick, trying to make it work is setting yourself up for failure. Because you deep down don't believe, and have given yourself an out, now you are just prolonging the inevitable. That is not giving it your all.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 "Do, or do not. There is no try." Yoda Nick, trying to make it work is setting yourself up for failure. Because you deep down don't believe, and have given yourself an out, now you are just prolonging the inevitable. That is not giving it your all. I think we're all prone to believing that old saw, because it makes everything simple. And yet, things not being black & white, there are plenty of steps between full out doing and not doing at all. We shouldn't confuse simple one-point tasks (walk, don't walk) with multifaceted endeavors (mending or ending a relationship). In the latter there will always be varying degrees of doing, because not all facets can be addressed at once. To force an intense "do or not do" onto such a complex situation risks overlooking much and rushing to judgment. I do agree that my belief & confidence are very low - though higher than last week - and that you MAY be right about prolonging the inevitable. But to quote another old saw, "Showing up is half the battle." I'm here. I'm engaged with my wife. We're doing our best to talk it all out & not overlook anything. We BOTH have outs, but we BOTH have ins. The jury is out for both of us, hence the need for a trial - trial period - the opposite of a trial separation - and as we are the jury and judges, we will hand down the verdict when we're ready. But that in-between period is not wasted time. It's the trial, and every jury should be both open-minded AND have a healthy dose of skepticism.
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 I think we're all prone to believing that old saw, because it makes everything simple. And yet, things not being black & white, there are plenty of steps between full out doing and not doing at all. We shouldn't confuse simple one-point tasks (walk, don't walk) with multifaceted endeavors (mending or ending a relationship). In the latter there will always be varying degrees of doing, because not all facets can be addressed at once. To force an intense "do or not do" onto such a complex situation risks overlooking much and rushing to judgment. I do agree that my belief & confidence are very low - though higher than last week - and that you MAY be right about prolonging the inevitable. But to quote another old saw, "Showing up is half the battle." I'm here. I'm engaged with my wife. We're doing our best to talk it all out & not overlook anything. We BOTH have outs, but we BOTH have ins. The jury is out for both of us, hence the need for a trial - trial period - the opposite of a trial separation - and as we are the jury and judges, we will hand down the verdict when we're ready. But that in-between period is not wasted time. It's the trial, and every jury should be both open-minded AND have a healthy dose of skepticism. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: this seems to be the crux of your problem... because this is what TRYING looks like... this whole mindset is nothing near DOING. you two aren't DOING anything differently. you are sick, right? so have her DO it all - while you are sick. it happens! people end up in the hospital - and family and friends start DOING more since that person is taken out of the equation for a stretch of time. it's no different here - allow HER to DO things. see what she comes up with. and judgement? there's no need for judgement... just know that it is what it is - however, what it IS - is definitely NOT working - yet you two continue to talk about it (change) and still no DOING things differently. there's no change... just empty words. it's not enough. stay sick. see what she does! seriously - this may be God's way of helping you. see what she steps up with while you're sick! or does she expect you to still DO it all while sick - and she still hides away at work?
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 This is oddly encouraging. I'm willing to grant some stutter starts on change due to our hectic schedules (and I'm sick right now!). But to have the courage & confidence to expect change to happen right away alleviates a lot of my apprehensions about entering into this "agreement". I will let everyone know how things are progressing. Thanks. stutter starts. :rolleyes: heck just start! and don't stop! you keep waiting and waiting... :rolleyes: agreement? those are words... just start DOING! you two are getting it so backwards by continuing to talk talk talk. stop talking - and just DO... there is no need for more words - just action!!! get busy leaving room for her to DO something rather than nothing within the families' daily activities. hint: the more you DON'T do = the more she will need to DO. oh yah, and then you may have more time and energy to get out and earn more money too! change, change, change - until you find a method that works and looks happy!
2sunny Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 I think we're all prone to believing that old saw, because it makes everything simple. no Nick... quite the opposite... this is just a big fat excuse that keeps you stuck doing nothing new. seriously. And yet, things not being black & white, there are plenty of steps between full out doing and not doing at all. and taking that first step seems to be the hardest for you. you aren't taking any action at all... that is why it looks exactly the same as it did more than a month ago. talk means NOTHING at this point. stop making excuses for your non- action. DO something, anything - different. YOU may get a different result that way... maybe that is what you are afraid of... it's all fear... fear is the driving force for staying stuck knowing full well neither one of you are happy. stay stuck in fear - or start changing everything up... with CHANGE may come some form of more happiness... but you two sit there changing NOTHING.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: this seems to be the crux of your problem... because this is what TRYING looks like... this whole mindset is nothing near DOING. you two aren't DOING anything differently. you are sick, right? so have her DO it all - while you are sick. it happens! people end up in the hospital - and family and friends start DOING more since that person is taken out of the equation for a stretch of time. it's no different here - allow HER to DO things. see what she comes up with. and judgement? there's no need for judgement... just know that it is what it is - however, what it IS - is definitely NOT working - yet you two continue to talk about it (change) and still no DOING things differently. there's no change... just empty words. it's not enough. stay sick. see what she does! seriously - this may be God's way of helping you. see what she steps up with while you're sick! or does she expect you to still DO it all while sick - and she still hides away at work? To answer your last question - Yes, I got virtually no additional help. The rest of it, I'm sorry but this Nike platitude stuff just rings as hollow and self-serving. It's ONE piece of the puzzle. Words are only empty if they don't lead to anything. I have enough trust in the process and in myself to know that they will.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 stutter starts. :rolleyes: heck just start! and don't stop! you keep waiting and waiting... :rolleyes: agreement? those are words... just start DOING! you two are getting it so backwards by continuing to talk talk talk. stop talking - and just DO... there is no need for more words - just action!!! get busy leaving room for her to DO something rather than nothing within the families' daily activities. hint: the more you DON'T do = the more she will need to DO. oh yah, and then you may have more time and energy to get out and earn more money too! change, change, change - until you find a method that works and looks happy! Okay, so I've definitely hit a nerve. But more importantly, YOU have hit a nerve. I DO hear you, and I DO understand I have a LONG habit of doing more talking than doing in this marriage. I will also admit that I am terrified of the next steps. Nevertheless, I believe talking has a purpose. I also believe giving a loved one some benefit of the doubt in a time of crisis has a purpose - EVEN IF it turns out to be giving someone enough rope to hang themselves with. All I can say in terms of reassurance is that no matter what or how we're approaching things right now, there is NO going back for me. So I'm confident the end result will be the right one.
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 no Nick... quite the opposite... this is just a big fat excuse that keeps you stuck doing nothing new. seriously. and taking that first step seems to be the hardest for you. you aren't taking any action at all... that is why it looks exactly the same as it did more than a month ago. talk means NOTHING at this point. stop making excuses for your non- action. DO something, anything - different. YOU may get a different result that way... maybe that is what you are afraid of... it's all fear... fear is the driving force for staying stuck knowing full well neither one of you are happy. stay stuck in fear - or start changing everything up... with CHANGE may come some form of more happiness... but you two sit there changing NOTHING. Dead on - taking the first step is very hard for me. BUT even though things may look the same, they are not, and it's largely because of the work I've been doing to figure it all out, both here and with family & friends, as well as with my wife. We know we are unhappy. What we are not yet sure of is how possible it is for us to BE happy. Keep in mind that for a good five months or more she was stuck, and so most of the talking we did was ineffectual. I was also giving her enough respect to go through her pain of betrayal. Consider this past weekend as the true start of our talks, not a month ago, not six months ago, and start the clock from there. If things are the same in another month, then I will surrender to your assessment - and I'll also be out of my mind . But I am certain things will not be the same.
soserious1 Posted May 24, 2011 Posted May 24, 2011 (edited) Nick, if you drop the kids off at her office & tell her that you are just too ill to cook,clean & take care of them she'll be forced to do so. Then for the next 7 days, you are going to be too ill to do more than lift your head off the pillow a bit to take in the broth that your wife is spoon feeding you. You can also remind her that as a divorced parent she will be expected to take full care of the children for 50% of the time, along with figuring out how she's going to pay you child support,rehabilitative alimony and paying to upkeep a home of her own suitable for the children. 2sunny- whenever I was ill the message was "suck it up cupcake the bills still need to be paid" I got zero supports that I didn't pay outsiders to deliver Edited May 24, 2011 by soserious1
Author NickFeek Posted May 24, 2011 Author Posted May 24, 2011 Nick, if you drop the kids off at her office & tell her that you are just too ill to cook,clean & take care of them she'll be forced to do so. You can also remind her that as a divorced parent she will be expected to take full care of the children for 50% of the time, along with figuring out how she's going to pay you child support,rehabilitative alimony and paying to upkeep a home of her own suitable for the children. Fortunately I'm not too sick today, but I do like what you're saying. But a question for you and everyone else here: Would moves like you & 2sunny are proposing be tantamount to a declaration of war? Would they be unnecessarily stirring the pot before the stew is cooked? Or are these meant to be shows of strength & autonomy, a way to correct the balance of things? I will say this, you are all giving me an important perspective shift that I can go back to her with. I may have mentioned a while back how easy it is for me to fall into her line of thinking, to the point where I start to question everything I've been feeling, thinking, believing. MORE than start to question, but actually reverse course on some things. And then inevitably the reality hits me in the face that it was all just a bunch of lines (even if she didn't intend it that way). I don't want to repeat that pattern. I just wish you could be in the room with her. You'd get such a different take on what I'm going through, and why it's so hard for me to take the next step.
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