soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 i am still completely stunned and appalled that your perception is so skewed - that money earns a spouse the right not to participate, and the the one who earns less should be made to feel "less than" - but also the right to take cheap shots by being condescending and mean spirited. how low and sad for you and for his wife. that mindset is completely derogatory and demeaning. but, i do think this is most likely S&C mindset of his W too - which makes sense why they don't see things the same or approach life in the same manner. thanks for providing a peek into what the world looks like from a very selfish and self serving attitude - from a person that considers only self. a sad and sorry place to be indeed. Yeap,you nailed it, I'm no longer interested in being with somebody who's unwilling to contribute on an equal basis either fiscally or in making an in kind contribution in the day to day running of our lives. ie: If I'm responsible for earning all the bread to pay our bills and you have free access to all the money, you need to be willing to CHEERFULLY take over the bulk of the details of our domestic life. If being not willing to be responsible for all the earning while retaining 50 % or more of the domestic tasks & being expected to minimize my contribution and being expected to basically thank somebody for allowing me to support them makes me "selfish" so be it better to be selfish than a chump.
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Yeap,you nailed it, I'm no longer interested in being with somebody who's unwilling to contribute on an equal basis either fiscally or in making an in kind contribution in the day to day running of our lives. ie: If I'm responsible for earning all the bread to pay our bills and you have free access to all the money, you need to be willing to CHEERFULLY take over the bulk of the details of our domestic life. If being not willing to be responsible for all the earning while retaining 50 % or more of the domestic tasks & being expected to minimize my contribution and being expected to basically thank somebody for allowing me to support them makes me "selfish" so be it better to be selfish than a chump. see, he said his W does earn ALL the bread... in fact he would like it IF she worked less and took less earnings - IF that meant she would/could participate more within the relationship. he never said she needs to DO more chores - what he simply asked for was for her to correspond on a level that's decent and loving; to make an effort to converse. which looks like a phone call, text or email when he may need to speak with her... or even to have a conversation when she's at home. the way it is - he may as well be single = and she may as well be single.
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Yeap,you nailed it, I'm no longer interested in being with somebody who's unwilling to contribute on an equal basis either fiscally or in making an in kind contribution in the day to day running of our lives. ie: If I'm responsible for earning all the bread to pay our bills and you have free access to all the money, you need to be willing to CHEERFULLY take over the bulk of the details of our domestic life. If being not willing to be responsible for all the earning while retaining 50 % or more of the domestic tasks & being expected to minimize my contribution and being expected to basically thank somebody for allowing me to support them makes me "selfish" so be it better to be selfish than a chump. how sad - that the value of living for you - amounts to earning money and who doles out the chores... might as well be with a servant. to reduce any person's value to "you do my chores because i earn money" is no great value in living... from either perspective. my friends and family refer to that as abuse and a pathetic existence.
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Well I have to completely agree with your first paragraph. There's no excuse for a husband who expects that from a woman who works full time, and I would not want to be married to a man like that. I DO feel sorry for your friend. But what point exactly am I demonstrating? I'm saying that my childcare is a valuable contribution to the household, at least as important as working. The family wouldn't function if either one was missing. I am ABSOLUTELY helping her out, and she's said as much a hundred times. She wishes she had more time with the kids, but is happy to see they have a father who can care for them when she can't. Please read carefully as I'm seriously not trying to bust your chops here, I'm trying to explain a fundamental difference between two mindsets. Old school... girls were brought up to believe that men had primary responsibility for bread winning, boys were taught that women held primary responsibility for kids & domestic tasks As more and more women entered the work force men began "helping out" ie: they did not assume responsibility.. they were merely "helping" the little woman,the implication being here that the working wife wasn't keeping up with her assigned traditional duties. Men felt they were owed thanks for performing parenting & household tasks, indeed many men were praised for "allowing your wife to work" The 20 somethings have been raised differently.. everybody is expected to get the best education they can, both boys and girls grew up knowing they'll be expected to be breadwinners .. a 25 yr old father isn't "helping" his wife out when he cooks dinner, he's assuming his responsibility in a shared life that he chose, his wife isn't "helping him out" by bringing home a paycheck, she's contributing to the shared life that she chose. Nick, when you say that you are "helping her out"in regards to your shared life what you're saying in effect is that despite the fact that your wife is primary bread winner.. she is still expected to be primarily responsible for home & hearth. You stepping into "help her out" implies that she's failed, fallen down, not meeting her responsibilities Saying that you're "helping her out" when you provide parenting implies that 100 % of that responsibility is her's like these aren't your children too.. can you not see the difference between the 2 mindsets?
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 how sad - that the value of living for you - amounts to earning money and who doles out the chores... might as well be with a servant. to reduce any person's value to "you do my chores because i earn money" is no great value in living... from either perspective. my friends and family refer to that as abuse and a pathetic existence. Funny, you seem to have no problem expecting the breadwinner to be a servant though do you? and yes, I'd rather pay a servant than pay to support a spouse while also being expected to cook,clean and perform domestic tasks as if I lived alone. As the old saying goes, "ass, cash or grass, nobody rides for free"
Author NickFeek Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 Please read carefully as I'm seriously not trying to bust your chops here, I'm trying to explain a fundamental difference between two mindsets. Old school... girls were brought up to believe that men had primary responsibility for bread winning, boys were taught that women held primary responsibility for kids & domestic tasks As more and more women entered the work force men began "helping out" ie: they did not assume responsibility.. they were merely "helping" the little woman,the implication being here that the working wife wasn't keeping up with her assigned traditional duties. Men felt they were owed thanks for performing parenting & household tasks, indeed many men were praised for "allowing your wife to work" The 20 somethings have been raised differently.. everybody is expected to get the best education they can, both boys and girls grew up knowing they'll be expected to be breadwinners .. a 25 yr old father isn't "helping" his wife out when he cooks dinner, he's assuming his responsibility in a shared life that he chose, his wife isn't "helping him out" by bringing home a paycheck, she's contributing to the shared life that she chose. Nick, when you say that you are "helping her out"in regards to your shared life what you're saying in effect is that despite the fact that your wife is primary bread winner.. she is still expected to be primarily responsible for home & hearth. You stepping into "help her out" implies that she's failed, fallen down, not meeting her responsibilities Saying that you're "helping her out" when you provide parenting implies that 100 % of that responsibility is her's like these aren't your children too.. can you not see the difference between the 2 mindsets? I see the difference, but once again you're responding to a construct that - however valid & crucial - is not really a part of this debate. Nowhere did I use the phrase "helping her out". That's your phrase. I am contributing to the running of this family in ways she has no time for. I am a very good father because I want to be, not because it falls to me by default. You are arguing with the idea of an unenlightened man in your mind, assuming many things that either I have not said or said the exact opposite of, and building your case on all of that. I DON'T DISAGREE in principle at all with what you're saying. But it's not really helpful for you to keep bringing it up, since that's nowhere near the core issues in this thread.
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 a healthy marriage is what those TWO people choose it to look like. since she earns more money - and he earns money too - then all the kids responsibility and household duties go to him - i don't think it's TOO MUCH FOR HIM TO ASK OF HER to expect that she correspond with him by interacting. she is completely ABSENT! is that enough? maybe for some... but he has expressed that he wants a wife - on SOME level besides her money. since there priorities don't align - it seems something needs to change. this is where change can be good - it brings about hope- hope that life can be different, better... an uncomfortable adjustment period is always expected when things are changing. that is a given. but to leave it the same knowing there is misery... is not a realistic solution. maybe his wife would best be paired up with an unemotional, non communicative workaholic. seems that may be best.
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Funny, you seem to have no problem expecting the breadwinner to be a servant though do you? and yes, I'd rather pay a servant than pay to support a spouse while also being expected to cook,clean and perform domestic tasks as if I lived alone. As the old saying goes, "ass, cash or grass, nobody rides for free" you are a very unaware person - who holds no value in the world i live in. in my world - we describe you as "sleeping" i am "awake" how can you know you are sleeping until you wake up? you can't! keep chasing that money... it will bring an even darker world in which to live - for YOU! i like this sunny side of my street - you stay on yours... keep riding that same dead horse that S&C wife is riding - you are two of the same...
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 I am ABSOLUTELY helping her out, and she's said as much a hundred times. She wishes she had more time with the kids, but is happy to see they have a father who can care for them when she can't. no Nick, your forging a strong relationship with your kids, not "helping" the little woman out
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Funny, you seem to have no problem expecting the breadwinner to be a servant though do you? and yes, I'd rather pay a servant than pay to support a spouse while also being expected to cook,clean and perform domestic tasks as if I lived alone. As the old saying goes, "ass, cash or grass, nobody rides for free" DO NOT put words in my mouth - i never describe the people in MY life as any servant! money or no money... you can have your SERVANTS - that is just completely backwards - in theory and mindset. how sad.
Author NickFeek Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 no Nick, your forging a strong relationship with your kids, not "helping" the little woman out So you would presume to contradict my own wife? People who love each other help each other out. I was echoing your use of that phrase to make a point, which is that loved ones pick up each other's slack when duty calls. She picks up my income slack - I pick up her house & childcare slack. There should be no resentment on either side if the love is healthy.
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 no Nick, your forging a strong relationship with your kids, not "helping" the little woman out see? even use of these words is terribly demeaning... sheez! he didn't use those words at all - your choice of words makes women look sub standard. sheez!
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 you are a very unaware person - who holds no value in the world i live in. in my world - we describe you as "sleeping" i am "awake" how can you know you are sleeping until you wake up? you can't! keep chasing that money... it will bring an even darker world in which to live - for YOU! i like this sunny side of my street - you stay on yours... keep riding that same dead horse that S&C wife is riding - you are two of the same... Hey, find me somebody who will support me handsomely in addition to performing 50% of life's more mundane chores while they thank me for allowing them to do so & I'll gladly sign up
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 see? even use of these words is terribly demeaning... sheez! he didn't use those words at all - your choice of words makes women look sub standard. sheez! he used the phrase "helping her out" which I've quoted .. my use of the words "little woman" describes how it feels as a bread winning woman to be told that I'm being "helped out" as if somehow I've failed, as if being primary breadwinner wasn't a responsibility and that domestic tasks were still my primary duty.
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 he used the phrase "helping her out" which I've quoted .. my use of the words "little woman" describes how it feels as a bread winning woman to be told that I'm being "helped out" as if somehow I've failed, as if being primary breadwinner wasn't a responsibility and that domestic tasks were still my primary duty. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: it's NOT about domestic tasks! :rolleyes::rolleyes: to have CONVERSATIONS is normal when one has a spouse! stop sidestepping and backpedaling.
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 derogatory terms "little woman" "helping out" "servant" show what the mindset is all about. you can win all the bread you want - but that does NOT constitute a winner at all in my world, especially when that money gives a person entitlement issues and power plays that makes them view them self as "better than"
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) derogatory terms "little woman" "helping out" "servant" show what the mindset is all about. you can win all the bread you want - but that does NOT constitute a winner at all in my world, especially when that money gives a person entitlement issues and power plays that makes them view them self as "better than" Oh you are 100% correct, paying all of somebody else's bills while continuing to provide for 50% or more of the work involved in running a household doesn't make me "better than" anybody.. what it makes me is stupid which is why I no longer do it:) I expect a partner is going to make a contribution equal to mine in our relationship,sorry but I don't call being expected to pay the bulk of the bills while being expected to do 50% or more of everything else as equal. You suggestion implies that the bread winner is like a trick or John, a person of such low worth that they need to pay for companionship. Oh and judging by the huge numbers of men who will not marry women who desire to be stay at home wives,my opinion on this issue isn't rare or strange. Edited May 20, 2011 by soserious1
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Oh you are 100% correct, paying all of somebody else's bills while continuing to provide for 50% or more of the work involved in running a household doesn't make me "better than" anybody.. what it makes me is stupid which is why I no longer do it:) Oh and judging by the huge numbers of men who will not marry women who desire to be stay at home wives,my opinion on this issue isn't rare or strange. those qualities do not constitute any form of healthy... or happy. money cannot buy happiness - happiness comes from within. if it's working for you = great! it would never work for me. in my world... i value money very little. i have "enough" - yet i value the love of myself and others well being way more than i value money. i approach each day with the mindset of "how can i be helpful to others?" THAT works for me... it's not about the money - it's about DOING things for anyone and everyone that might need help. sometimes it involves money - but very rarely... most of all people want help in the form of effort, time and loving behavior, kind words, random acts of kindness. that part is easy and makes for happy days. that is MY truth - and the way i live. it brings me great happiness... but you may not understand that. my truth is different than your truth - everyone's is different.
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 those qualities do not constitute any form of healthy... or happy. money cannot buy happiness - happiness comes from within. if it's working for you = great! it would never work for me. in my world... i value money very little. i have "enough" - yet i value the love of myself and others well being way more than i value money. i approach each day with the mindset of "how can i be helpful to others?" THAT works for me... it's not about the money - it's about DOING things for anyone and everyone that might need help. sometimes it involves money - but very rarely... most of all people want help in the form of effort, time and loving behavior, kind words, random acts of kindness. that part is easy and makes for happy days. that is MY truth - and the way i live. it brings me great happiness... but you may not understand that. my truth is different than your truth - everyone's is different. First off I want to apologize to Nick for going off topic, this will be my last generalized type of reply. 2sunny, yes I totally get the joy of doing for others when possible. I don't lord my income over anybody, nor do I treat anybody badly or assume that because I've paid for a service I have the right to demean them. OTOH,my day to day personal life isn't a charity,I refuse to treat an able bodied, mentally sound partner as a charity case, that IMHO is demeaning. I expect my partner (barring illness/accident) to be fully functioning,to bring to the table 50% of the items needed to run a joint life. I also respect partners by assuming they are adult enough to figure that out and to understand that winning as their smile might be, it's not going to buy groceries anymore than my smile gets the laundry done.
Author NickFeek Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 No worries about going off topic. You've all been more than generous with your time here, and this is a valid issue to debate. It might not ALL apply to me, but it's worth hashing out.
Ira Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Nick, I am curious what are your thoughts at this point, after having a huge range of opinions about your situation?
2sunny Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 don't get me wrong... i completely take care of myself... but i also spend my day looking around - and finding ways to be helpful to others. while any relationship is growing - i expect communication... this allows an understanding between two or more people to understand what is occurring in any relationship, without communication - there is simply no way of knowing what's going on with the other person(s). IF the OP wife is void of anything - it is communicating what may or may not be needed to bring about change within the M. guessing isn't adequate - and since she won't tell and is unwilling to come up with ideas that may bring about change... nothing is left to hope for. how can we know what a person needs if they never say what that is? how can we figure a partnership if one person says they need changes - and that is met by ignoring basics communication needs?
Author NickFeek Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 Nick, I am curious what are your thoughts at this point, after having a huge range of opinions about your situation? Thanks for asking, Ira. I have to say I've been more than pleasantly surprised at how helpful this forum has been, and the wide range of opinions and plethora of info are among the best qualities. All of this is basically helping me to "triangulate" my position, throwing out the outliers on both sides, and amalgamating the rest. What I've ended up with is a much clearer idea of what matters to me, what I need, what I'm willing to give, what I still love & want, and what I need to do without. And when I'm off in the "real" world putting some of this into action, and get thrown by one comment or action or another, coming back here (as well as talking to friends & family) has helped me to reestablish my solid ground. At this point, while part of me still hopes that my wife will better understand what we need to do to make ours a fully realized marriage, I'm not feeling much hope. Every conversation we've had has ended in us banging up against a small but crucial set of irreconcilable differences. I'm always taking into account my cheating, but we're both beginning to see that it was - besides a terrible mistake - just a symptom of a larger set of problems. For her part, she's not sure she can ever really forgive me, and has stated clearly she's unwilling to do some key things that would be essential for our recovery. I also think she's tired of all this, tired of what she's been feeling for a while, and also not too hopeful we can both be satisfied. I still think she'd be more likely to continue this marriage, but she's also been more satisfied than I've been, so that stands to reason. For my part, I'm extremely sad, scared for my children, and concerned about the future setup, whatever that may be. I still love my wife dearly, but if she's confirming there are some core things she can never fulfill, I have to move on & try to find a less compromised relationship within which I'd hope there's less frustration & more happiness. And I hope she can do the same. We expect to talk again this weekend, and hash out in greater detail than ever the finer points of what is troubling both of us, and what we need from the future. My prediction is that we will still be at an impasse, at which point I'm going to suggest we separate. That's only the beginning of what I believe will be a much harder stage, with a ton of details to work out, and kids to reassure all along the process, but we're both capable & loving people who are up to the challenge.
soserious1 Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 (edited) Nick, somehow I suspect that your wife is one of those people usually referred to as "quietly ambitious"the heavy hitter lawyers I am friendly with all tend to harbor political ambitions,dreams of being judges dance in their heads. I also suspect that though things might have been better at the beginning of your relationship, personalized,lovey communication has never been your wife's long suite. As the years have past the differences in both of your styles, as well as the differences in what you both want from the marriage have become more and more visible. The affair just finally forced all of this out into the open. I do know this, for me, my work, what I do,is a core piece of my identity, somebody asking me to give up a piece of that in order to make them happier is asking a huge thing. The only way I could see my way clear to doing that is if I felt that what the person brings to my life provides something of greater value. Your wife's refusal to reduce her hours is telling you pretty clearly that she doesn't feel what she'd get in exchange for doing as you wish would be worth the trade off. I care about a great many people I could never be in a relationship with because doing so would cost me more than I'm willing to pay. It sucks but there it is Edited May 20, 2011 by soserious1
Author NickFeek Posted May 20, 2011 Author Posted May 20, 2011 Nick, somehow I suspect that your wife is one of those people usually referred to as "quietly ambitious"the heavy hitter lawyers I am friendly with all tend to harbor political ambitions,dreams of being judges dance in their heads. I also suspect that though things might have been better at the beginning of your relationship, personalized,lovey communication has never been your wife's long suite. As the years have past the differences in both of your styles, as well as the differences in what you both want from the marriage have become more and more visible. The affair just finally forced all of this out into the open. I do know this, for me, my work, what I do,is a core piece of my identity, somebody asking me to give up a piece of that in order to make them happier is asking a huge thing. The only way I could see my way clear to doing that is if I felt that what the person brings to my life provides something of greater value. Your wife's refusal to reduce her hours is telling you pretty clearly that she doesn't feel what she'd get in exchange for doing as you wish would be worth the trade off. I care about a great many people I could never be in a relationship with because doing so would cost me more than I'm willing to pay. It sucks but there it is That's a pretty heartfelt & accurate assessment of our situation. I wouldn't be surprised if she'd want to be a judge one day - she'd be great at that. And I agree that our differences magnified as we grew as individuals over the years. We in part ignored this & in part just got used to it among all the hectic kid & work things. And yes, the affair has blown EVERYTHING out into the open. A horrible way to do it, but hopefully it will amount to exposing more truth & setting up more successful & happy futures for both of us. And that second paragraph - it's hard to hear but I can't dispute it at all. When we were teens & in our 20s, I would never have guessed she'd come down on that side of things, but that's how people change.
Recommended Posts