moimeme Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 This is like the third time you have brought up the Old Testament to use as your fire power. Well that would be because the Bible passage you sought is there. Don't blame me for that. You said you didn't know where it was, but because it was there it must be right. So I told you. Now you change your story and say that what's in the Old Testament doesn't count - and then you quote Genesis. It really amuses me that someone will tout his own interpretation of any piece of literature, including the Bible, as THE definitive interepretation of it. You are entitled to believe what you like. Your rights stop at your own doorstep, however, and that means not dictating to others how they ought to believe OR behave. Remember what Jesus said about taking the mote out of your own eye? About not judging others? About loving all men? I suppose not, since that's not convenient to your prejudices. This is the sort of debate I don't generally engage in and I'll disengage from this one. Cleary, you choose only select portions of the Bible to obey; those which support your prejudices. I think that behaviour is abominable and am not interested in people who think it's ok. Jesus told you how to live- try following His word. He didn't say 'but you can make exceptions if you feel like it'. Link to post Share on other sites
wideawake Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Argg.... Can we just leave religion in general out of this equation? I mean, do whatever your choosen religion asks of you, believe whatever you want to believe. But don't expect those beliefs to be handed down as law and followed by the whole population. It's just that simple...the seperation of church and state. Learn it. Love it. Deal with it. Link to post Share on other sites
Author jenny Posted April 7, 2004 Author Share Posted April 7, 2004 the bible scholars on this forum have proved the inconsistency of this argument so many times; i actually really admire their patience. but heads up, for moose and sweetbilly, both moi and dyer have disproved this stance on numerous occasions; you might want to search out their careful arguments before starting this point again. luckily, we now decide basic civil rights in the courts, rather than by a heavily edited, heavily interpreted, and contextual book(s) that only some people believe in. Link to post Share on other sites
BadMan Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Originally posted by dyermaker You have NO evidence that homosexuality is a choice, none whatsoever. You have no evidence that homosexuality is NOT a choice. NONE WHATSOEVER. Link to post Share on other sites
sweetbilly Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Most of you are right, this will probably be solved in the courts and I believe that the homosexual agenda will win; because of sympathetic, liberal judges. But it still won't stop a vengeful god from judging America for following the lustful desires of the heart. And it dosen't make it right simply because it's been passed in the courts; man's mind is corrupt and inately evil. Yes, America is a democracy, and if the people of this country want homosexual marriages, fine I won't interfere, but i would advise everyone, straight or gay be ready because if there is a God- and some know more than others that there is- all hell ( pardon the pun) is gonna break loose. My point all along has been to avoid pain, obey; unless, like the devil, you think you're stronger than God! Link to post Share on other sites
wideawake Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Originally posted by sweetbilly man's mind is corrupt and inately evil. That made me sad. Can't you see how beautiful we all are? We're not evil bro, we're all just people trying to live our lives. Take care billy. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Great words, Wideawake - both in the text and in the sig Link to post Share on other sites
Juggs Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Originally posted by sweetbilly But it still won't stop a vengeful god from judging America for following the lustful desires of the heart. And it dosen't make it right simply because it's been passed in the courts; man's mind is corrupt and inately evil. So OK let me get this right.... God, the tolerant, forgiving, loving God is going to judge an entire country based on a court ruling? That's just plain silly. You know.... It seems to me that the only thing that even keeps this debate going is the religious aspect of it. It would appear that some Christians feel that being homosexual is a sin because they have read it in a book that's been translated hundreds of times over from dead languages.... It is their right to feel this way, we live in a free country that was founded so people could have the freedom to live, worship and love as they please. Now while I acknowledge and respect their right to feel this way, there are some who are not doing the same for those of us who do not share their views. If you feel it's a sin, then don't do it... But don't deny the people who do not share your views the right to have their own opinion and make their own personal choices. If it is a sin then it is their sin and they have every right to make that choice on their own as long as both adults are consenting. Oh yeah.... I think this might remind some folks about what else the bible has to say as well... James 4:11-12 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. {12} There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor? Link to post Share on other sites
sweetbilly Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Juggs you forgot God the vengful; God the jelous; and the God that destroys the sinful these aspects of God are often over looked. Yes, he will not only judge the whole country he'll judge the whole world too. I'd like to point out that the country is a democracy. And like all democracys, the law's that are neglected or enforced are the direct result of that societys desires. Take a look around you and you'll know where we stand. (enron, world com, homosexuality, wars, murder, hate, terrorism. All these problems are symptamatic, and represent the moral base in America today. People tend to concentrate to much on God the faithful, who loves everyone so much. Of course he loves us, but he will also destroy us. You should ask yourself one question. is it me who judged you, or is it you yourself who judged you because you inately know the truth. if you read the thread I never once said anyone is going to hell, I only said "the Bible says this, the Bible says that". You're right, people have the right to do what ever they want, to who ever they want. I'm not going to stop them, they're free to represent their country anyway they want. In fact, I'm eagerly awaiting God's answer. So, go for it if you dare; I have nothing to worry about. Link to post Share on other sites
wideawake Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Originally posted by sweetbilly (enron, world com, homosexuality, wars, murder, hate, terrorism) WOW. I couldn't buy entertainment like this if I tried. You're fantastic. Whatever you do, don't you stop being you sweetness. Though I do agree with you on the whole World Com thing... DAMN YOU BERNIE!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Juggs Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Well, My God is forgiving and She loves everyone. (not counting Bernie... right on, wideawake!) Link to post Share on other sites
wideawake Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 Nice Juggs!!! I'm changing my avatar in your honor. Travis my boy is GONE! Bernie's mug shot is here! That bitch cost me supra bucks. Now where are those bastards from Global Crossing? By the way... Originally posted by Juggs Well, My God is forgiving and She loves everyone. Solid. So Solid. Let the goddess run wild. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 the God that destroys the sinful Again, Sweet, READ the Bible. You know which nations got destroyed by God? 1 - the nations where people worshipped false idols (money, anyone?) 2 - the nations were people were INHOSPITABLE TO OTHERS I only said "the Bible says this, the Bible says that Yeah, without having read the Bible to know what it does say. Yeesh! Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 When people get married, men often complain of the amount of sex almost immediately dwindling. Most long-term married men would agree that marriage was perhaps a detriment to their sex lives. Since homosexuality offends (your) god, wouldn't allowing them to marry stop the problem of their sex-having? Link to post Share on other sites
Juggs Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Interesting logic, indeed. Link to post Share on other sites
sweetbilly Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Dyermaker, that has to be the most absured statement I've ever heard; only someone more concerned with sexual gratafication would ask something like that. marriage consists of so much more than just sex. I feel it only validates my point futher when the major concern for homosexuals is trying to appease religous people by saying "if you let us have sex with eachother we'll have sex less" ha ha. It's not my business what happens in the bedroom especially between two consenting adults; and I don't really care. But when people are trying to get a law passed then I become concerned. Besides, who says homosexuals or lezbians have better relationships than heterosexuals they still cheat as much, if not more, than straight people. And it dosen't matter who you have sex with, eventually everyone wants a little more excitement from their partiners; even homosexuals . Well juggs, I'm sorry your God dosen't have standards, that's not necessarilly a good thing. However, I thought the "she" part was pretty funny! Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Sweetbilly, my logic wasn't about sexual gratification at all. It was a humorous analysis of the fact that you think marriage, in terms of the government recognition thereof, is about sex--when it fact, it's about rights. Additionally, I'm not a homosexual, so the contention that my afforementioned joke was 'the major concern for [sic] homosexuals'. Originally posted by sweetbilly Besides, who says homosexuals or lezbians [sic] have better relationships than heterosexuals they still cheat as much, if not more, than straight people. So? You don't have to have sex, love each other, be faithful, or even be attracted to your (heterosexual) partner in order to be married to them. You can get drunk, get married, make the news, and annul the entire thing all with the newsmedia watching, in a matter of hours. Fidelity has nothing to do with civil rights. Alas, your question was, "Who says homosexuals or lezbians [sic] have better relationships than heterosexuals" So, to appease you: "Gay male couples who go through a public "union ceremony" seem to show a higher commitment to monogamy. Gretchen Stiers's 1999 study, From This Day Forward, looked at nearly every gay male couple in Massachusetts who had gone through a commitment ceremony. Among these highly committed couples, over 80% of them indicated that they practiced monogamy" http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/kurtz080301.shtml "A survey was done in 1988-1989 that involved 560 male couples. Survey forms were circulated through gay churches and community centers, but most couples requested the forms after reading notices in the gay press, so these also were some of the "very most committed" gay couples. Among these couples, 63% said that their sexual agreement was one of monogamy, 26% said their relationship was one of monogamy with agreed exceptions, and 11% said they had agreed to non-monogamy." http://www.buddybuddy.com/survey.html "Vermont allows civil unions between same-sex couples; so two University of Vermont psychology professors did a study comparing these homosexual couples in civil unions with 1) homosexual couples not in unions and 2) married heterosexual couples. Among the findings: 79 percent of married heterosexual men felt non-monogamy was not okay, compared with only 34 percent of gay men not in civil unions and 50 percent of gay men in civil unions." http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/oitm/issues/2003/01Jan2003/news06_ firstyear.htm I was just answering your question, I still feel that sexual fidelity, or sex in general, has nothing to do with civil rights. Link to post Share on other sites
UCFKevin Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Are gay people human? Do humans have rights, or only straight people? Screw it. Let whoever wants to marry whoever marry whoever. Dammit. I don't see how the hell it harms ANYONE whatsoever. Link to post Share on other sites
Juggs Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 The gay marriage/civli union is not about sex, it's about having rights as a couple regardless of gender. With all the links, bible verses, personal opinions ...etc ... shared here, I still don't see how allowing gay/lesbian couples the same rights as heterosexual couples has any effect on anyone other then the gay and lesbian couples getting hitched. No one is asking anyone to like homosexuality... But they should be allowed the same civil rights as heterosexuals. They are not less of a human being or an American because they sleep with the same gender. Please tell me, Sweetbilly, how does gay/lesbian marriage effect you personally? How will your life be changed if it is legal for gays and lesbians to marry? Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 How will your life be changed if it is legal for gays and lesbians to marry? He'll be grossed out. Link to post Share on other sites
dyermaker Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 God could destroy the entire United States. He should let his daughters be raped, it will prevent his demise. Link to post Share on other sites
sweetbilly Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Juggs, how could gay marriage not be based on sex when gay people are trying so hard to convence the rest of the world that they are a minority and deserve civil rights based simply on the fact that they sleep with the same sex? like I said before gays deserve civil rights too; not "special rights". And passing a law forces me to accept gay marriages, and thus, violates my religous convictions. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 You a Congressman? A Senator? Link to post Share on other sites
sweetbilly Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Dyermaker, thats not even funny. How would you like it if your mother was raped and someone made a joke about it? Moi, no, I'm shooting for a "HIGHER" office. Link to post Share on other sites
moimeme Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 forces me to accept gay marriages, and thus, violates my religous convictions. No, it doesn't force you to accept gay marriages any more than you are forced to accept abortions, country music, or quiche. It just means gay marriages will exist even though you don't like it. Too bad. Link to post Share on other sites
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