Need unbiased thoughts

[Lions89]

Hi there. I'm posting for the first time, but have been reading quite a few threads here since I've been seriously contemplating divorce. I'm trying to be fair, and I will consider everything you say.

 

A little bit of background: My husband and I have been married for almost 12 years, together for over 15. No kids. There are no affairs (while I can't be 100% sure, I feel that's fairly certain).

 

I've been in counseling to help with our marriage (and myself) for about 8 years. We've been in marriage counseling/sex therapy for about 20 months.

 

I've gotten to the point that I'm finally realizing things aren't likely to change. I'm not 100% willing to concede yet, but I need separation from him to figure out what I want/need that I don't have, what I have that I don't want, whether I'm willing to accept those things without a doubt to move forward, or to end this once and for all.

 

When I've brought up separating in the past, we both assumed that I would stay in the house, and he would go somewhere else. When we talked about it in therapy this past weekend, our therapist flipped out and said since this is my decision, I go. Period. No discussion.

 

It's my opinion that she doesn't get to decide, we do. We discussed it once on Monday, and are planning to regroup tomorrow after giving some time for everything to sink in. But now that it's been said, that's his argument. And I understand that point of view.

 

On the flip side, part of the reason I'm so frustrated is that he does very little around the house, especially when it comes to general home maintenance or improvements. Pretty much any idea to make an improvement comes from me. I'm not trying to take credit for the past, but my argument for my staying here is that I'll continue to make improvements and make this a better house, either for one of us, for both of us, or to sell.

 

I keep thinking that it would be better for me to go, because then I could truly figure out whether I can accept this aspect of his personality, as it'll be 100% on him.

 

But then I flip to the fact that all he needs is his chair and TV, and he'll be happy. I have workout equipment here, a brand new kitchen (he doesn't do any cooking), and I'm all about cleaning stuff out, organizing, decluttering, etc., and like I said, making improvements.

 

So, I'd like your unbiased opinions. If there's anything I can clarify, I'll try to answer as quickly as I can (I don't know how quickly you respond to new posts - I usually catch them after they're going strong - so I might not be here when you do, but I promise I'll come back).

 

Thanks for reading what turned out to be a long long story.

[tojaz]

Trying hard not to be blunt, but from what I'm reading here, you have made a decision that effects both of your lives yet are looking for what is most convenient for you.

 

Personally, I think that, if your main concern is who's going to be in the house rather then how to salvage your marriage, then your priorities are far out of place.

 

If you want to experiment with the single life, then I agree with your therapist, go out and make it on your own for awhile, get your own place and start from scratch, get an objective view. This is a life changing event and its not just going to effect you, its not a vacation.

 

TOJAZ

[Lions89]

You can be blunt, no worries. I'm looking for anything and everything at this point.

 

But to respond (and hopefully not coming off as defensive), we've spent A LOT of time trying to salvage the marriage. This is just one piece that has come up recently that I wanted opinions on.

[Yasuandio]

Trying hard not to be blunt, but from what I'm reading here, you have made a decision that effects both of your lives yet are looking for what is most convenient for you.

 

Personally, I think that, if your main concern is who's going to be in the house rather then how to salvage your marriage, then your priorities are far out of place.

 

If you want to experiment with the single life, then I agree with your therapist, go out and make it on your own for awhile, get your own place and start from scratch, get an objective view. This is a life changing event and its not just going to effect you, its not a vacation.

 

TOJAZ

 

DUH TOJAZ

 

Man needs couch and TV. She made the house. He's a remotaman. And you tell her to walk? Do you have two legs or three? And yes, this question is directly posed to you Tojaz, it is not cryptic.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Yasuandio

[Yasuandio]

Dear Lions89,

 

There are many ways to spin your issues. Consider all roads. And wait for all responses from LS. I spent a lot of time on PM tonight assisting a member and I'm very tired. I will have a fresh look at your post tomarrow afternoon, promise! In the meantime, if you provide any more details or respond to other posters that will enlighten me to give an even better response to you! Keep your chin up!

[robf1971]

You can be blunt, no worries. I'm looking for anything and everything at this point.

 

But to respond (and hopefully not coming off as defensive), we've spent A LOT of time trying to salvage the marriage. This is just one piece that has come up recently that I wanted opinions on.

 

He He , I love being blunt.

 

IMHO he/she who wants to leave the marriage must go..

[robf1971]

I need separation from him to figure out what I want/need that I don't have

 

In other words try a bit of shagging around and if you don't like it expect hubby to take you back.

[tojaz]

You can be blunt, no worries. I'm looking for anything and everything at this point.

 

But to respond (and hopefully not coming off as defensive), we've spent A LOT of time trying to salvage the marriage. This is just one piece that has come up recently that I wanted opinions on.

 

DUH TOJAZ

 

Man needs couch and TV. She made the house. He's a remotaman. And you tell her to walk? Do you have two legs or three? And yes, this question is directly posed to you Tojaz, it is not cryptic.

 

Im a guy Yas, although my gender has very little to do with my opinion. Nor has it with any of the advice i have given on this forum. Nor are we debating a divorce settlement here in which case who retains the house would be much more complicated and my opinion would probably be much different.

 

Lions has stated that she has not given up all hope for her marriage but feels the need to separate at this time temporarily. Had she been a he my advice would be exactly the same and thats based on the fact that she is the initiator. When i need a break at work, I don't ask the rest of the workers to knock it off for twenty min. I excuse myself.

 

On LS we only get one side of the story, and when that is coming from someone actively seeking divorce from another they are rarely seen in the best light so maybe hes a couch potato, maybe hes not but in the end shes the one deciding to shift out so I see no reason for him to uproot himself to cater to her, the same reason her therapist has said the same.

 

TOJAZ

[What_Next]

Yas, I am really not sure what relevance your post has to question tojaz's gender, I really do not. Tojaz is one of the most genuine long standing members of LS that I know. He has helped countless members and me personally. Not directly on topic I know, but I feel that was uncalled for.

 

Lions89, I will be blunt myself, is there anyone else in the picture? I have to ask because that will definitely impact matters. If not, and you really have tried to work on the marriage and it is not working then perhaps a seperation might be a good thing. I know a lot of people are of the opinion that a seperation is just the first step to divorce but I don't think so. If a seperation is not used as an excuse to step out on your spouse then it could be very valuable indeed.

[PollyIvy]

I think you should get a short-term rental, get some furniture on craigslist/Target, and try being on your own for a while. House maintenance will be his respoinsibility for a while. And with everything still there - except you - he will really feel your absence.

I'm sorry you are struggling, and it is a hard decision to try a break. But if you really feel that you need to try being on your own, then don't do it half-assed - go be on your own.

This does not mean that if you should end up getting a divorce, that he will get the house just because he's there.

[Lions89]

There is definitely no one else in the picture, at least from my side.

 

We are including in the separation "rules" that there is no dating, etc. I won't be shagging up with anyone else, unless and until we determine that the marriage really is over. As long as we're trying, there's no one else.

 

I honestly tried to be as fair as possible with my descriptions. If my husband were here, he would agree with everything I've written. (I know, anyone could say that, but I really believe that to be true.) Honestly, we both see each other's viewpoint. They both make sense to us, which is why I wanted some other thoughts.

 

I have already been scoping out apartments with the idea that I'm the one to leave.

[SoMovinOn]

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet, but when I read your post, I ended up confused as to what you've decided you want to do... stay in the house or not stay in the house.

 

In any event, I think your thought process seems a bit off. None of the things you mention really matter all that much, in my mind. He has his chair and TV. If he moves out, he can take them with him. You have a new kitchen. If you move, I'm thinking you'd have a kitchen there too.

 

SO... having said that... the things I think would matter, you don't mention, such as finances. Can you afford the house on your own? Could he? What about his opinion - what does *he* want to do? Maybe he doesn't want to stay in the house, so it doesn't matter. I think your therapist was out of line. I would think the therapist should have had you two talk out the pros and cons of all the possibilities and arrive at the option on which you both most agree.

 

What about the option of selling the house and both of you moving somewhere else?

[jstobo]

I'm in the camp of you should be the one leaving. The obvious reason is due to the fact that you want the separation. But if you separate, you need to truly feel what is like to be on your own. Which means moving out. My guess is you wouldn't be able to hold onto the house in the long run, since the two of you would now have two mortgage/rent payments. Moving would be inevitable.

 

My guess is, once you're out, he'll realize he needs more than the chair and TV. He will QUICKLY learn to appreciate you when you're not around doing the things you do. You will see a change in him guaranteed. But if you make him move, he will have resentment. An element you want to keep away from if possible.

 

This is a big one in my opinion. You need to be the one asking to come back if that's what you decide. If he moves out, you're creating a situation where he will be asking. IMHO, if you work things out, it will be much better in the long run if you ask him if you can move back. He will always have the confidence to know you wanted to come back. Not that he convinced you.

 

One thing I cannot relate to though is no children. You have so much more freedom to make decisions due to that fact.

[Lions89]

My guess is you wouldn't be able to hold onto the house in the long run, since the two of you would now have two mortgage/rent payments. Moving would be inevitable.

 

Moving isn't inevitable. Either one of us could afford the house on our own if need be, assuming costs are cut elsewhere. Things would obviously be significantly tighter, but not impossible. We bought a small house 11 years ago, not part of the huge housing crisis...very affordable.

 

This is a big one in my opinion. You need to be the one asking to come back if that's what you decide. If he moves out, you're creating a situation where he will be asking. IMHO, if you work things out, it will be much better in the long run if you ask him if you can move back. He will always have the confidence to know you wanted to come back. Not that he convinced you.

 

I think that's a really really good point. That makes a lot of sense to me.

[UnsureinSeattle]

You want to seperate? You should go. Unless you can paint a line down the middle of the house, Odd Couple style.

 

Seriously- you don't get to make that decision for him. It's unfair and selfish. You don't know what you want? Then you should go work it out.

 

Good luck!

[whichwayisup]

Since it's not a divorce and just a separation, and you're the one who is pushing the separation and wants to go, sorry, but you should be the one to find another place. Your reasonings as to why you should stay and he should go don't cut it. (home improvements, etc.. Do you phsyically do them? Paint, renovate, fix up, or do you hire someone to do this? Or does your H do the fix ups with your help? Or do you do it all and he sits down in his chair and does nothing?) To assume he's okay with this, that all he needs is his chair and TV isn't fair. He's a grown man, and he needs to eat, cook and clean. I'm sure if you left, the place won't fall to pieces and he won't starve either. He'll learn how to do things on his own, as will you. I'm sure you rely on him for certain things as well, unless you do it all and he never lifts a finger to help or contribute.

 

I assume the bills are paid together equally? Or do you pay all the bills to the house, tv, cable, phone, hydro, house tax, water, house insurance etc? And he pays for nothing?

[Yasuandio]

Thank you for your clarifications Mr. Tojaz and Mr. What_Next.

 

Man, remote, TV. The question is, how long has Remotaman withdrawn from his marital responsibilites whilst wife has been making a nice home around him?

 

I would like to know how long things have been like this before I tell the wife to take a walk. OP, please advise on whose and what marital/emotional needs have and/or have not been met, and for how long. Go to Marriage Builders website to find out exactly what Emotional Needs are, and provide a brief historical overview. [A you see it from both sides, based upon at leasy what you've learned about his position from MC].

 

You seem attached to the home. Do you want to stay there? If you leave, you need some legal advice. But frankly, if there is any chance that he would file for a divorce while you are separated/gone, and there is a means for you to live elsewhere, possession is nine tenths of the law often enough where you may not want to risk it (I am not an attorney).

 

Maybe this gives you a little more to think about. I hope you have time to respond to the questions above.

 

And know this. If someone is to leave, it is between you, your husband, and a judge if necessary. There are no governing rules on who stays and who leaves. Your therapist was out of line. ( you live in US, correct?)

Edited March 10, 2011 by Yasuandio

[Lions89]

Do you phsyically do them? Paint, renovate, fix up, or do you hire someone to do this? Or does your H do the fix ups with your help? Or do you do it all and he sits down in his chair and does nothing?)

 

Generally, I do them, or he may help, depending. We painted one room together; the others were solely me. I have plans to replace carpet and paint another room and rearrange furniture, etc.; he has no interest in any of that, but he'd help with that if I wanted him to.

 

If I have the ability to do it, I do not want to hire someone to do it. He would hire anyone and everyone, if he even had an inkling to do any of these things to begin with.

 

To assume he's okay with this, that all he needs is his chair and TV isn't fair. He's a grown man, and he needs to eat, cook and clean.

 

I'm not assuming; he said this. He doesn't cook. Whether he needs to or not doesn't matter. He lived on PB&J sandwiches and take-out when I met him, and that's what he would live on without me. Maybe some frozen dinners, too; he does know how to use the microwave. (This is what he eats 100% of the time if I don't cook.)

 

We have housecleaners, so no, he doesn't clean or need to clean, either. Anything that they don't do wouldn't get done. He said that specifically as well.

 

I assume the bills are paid together equally? Or do you pay all the bills to the house, tv, cable, phone, hydro, house tax, water, house insurance etc? And he pays for nothing?

 

Our finances are joint, which is what I assume you mean by this. I handle all of the our day-to-day finances, though. He handles our long-term investments.

 

Man, remote, TV. The question is, how long has Remotaman withdrawn from his marital responsibilites whilst wife has been making a nice home around him?

 

We bought the house (from an apartment) when he was in grad school while working full time. At that time, I handled almost everything so that he could spend his time concentrating on his schoolwork. Once he graduated, I expected he would start stepping up around the house, but he didn't. That was 2003, and when I first started going to IC.

 

He will do things; he's not completely lazy. But most of the time I need to nag him, and he knew early on that I never wanted to take on the role of the nagging wife. But it's either nag or do it myself and resent him (well, I resent him either way).

 

As far as emotional needs (as described on MB), that's what my therapist is going to work on with me. I don't know what mine specifically are; all I know is they're not being met. Mostly, the answer to "What could your spouse do for you that would make you the happiest?" is man up. I know that sounds vague, but that's where I am. I feel like he doesn't act as a grown man with adult responsibilities and an equal partner in this relationship. We've had a lot of therapy around our parent/child relationship, and there's been some improvement there.

 

We originally went to our therapist for sex therapy, not necessarily marriage counseling. We have little to no sex life, which has been a problem for me for awhile. We have always talked about it, and he's aware of how I feel. This counseling has gone into other areas (as the therapist said upon our first appt back in 2009, be careful what you wish for), but it wasn't traditional marriage counseling when we went into it.

 

As far as the house, abandonment was one of my concerns, but I looked into it, and PA law does not award residences based on separations. I can leave to establish the beginning of separation (which would determine date of divorce if that's the ultimate result), but still have rights to the house upon actual divorce. I would confirm that with a lawyer before leaving, but that would go for either one of us.

 

I hope I've answered your questions, but honestly, I think I read enough already to decide to leave. I'm still willing to hear more feedback, though.

 

And thanks to everyone. It has really helped just to get this out here, too.

[Lions89]

Ok, I just went back to the MB site and saw the categories of emotional needs, so I'll try to address those:

 

• Affection - important, but now I'm turned off by it from him
   
  
• Sexual Fulfillment - very important, not met
   
  
• Conversation - very important - we converse, but he's not a good listener. He looks around a lot when I'm talking, and interrupts a lot.
   
  
• Recreational Companionship - important, but met more than wanted - he really doesn't have recreational activities that he does without me, but I wish he would
   
  
• Honesty and Openness - very important. I think he's always been honest with me, but openness is new. Something we've been working on in therapy.
   
  
• Physical Attractiveness - somewhat important and I do think he's attractive, but I'm not really attracted to him anymore. Other things cloud my feelings about that now.
   
  
• Financial Support - important, and I think this is something I have a real issue with. He has not been reliable in providing support here; he has been through a lot of jobs, at one time quitting without even discussing it with me first, and being unemployed by choice for periods of time (months...this was quite awhile ago, before all of the recent unemployment issues).
   
  
• Domestic Support - as I mentioned in my last post, important, not met (I do want to add that we each do our own laundry, and he does the "household" laundry...I'm really trying to be fair about how I'm presenting him, and forgot to mention that)
   
  
• Family Commitment - N/A
   
  
• Admiration - important, comes and goes in our current situation, but generally I've felt unappreciated. I think he has always respected me, though, or maybe not always, but more as we've gotten older.
  

[Yasuandio]

Yes, it looks like from all the posts you've received, and the questions to which you responded so openly - the direction you need to go is easily within your grasp. Good luck to you!

[tojaz]

Yas, I am really not sure what relevance your post has to question tojaz's gender, I really do not. Tojaz is one of the most genuine long standing members of LS that I know. He has helped countless members and me personally. Not directly on topic I know, but I feel that was uncalled for.

 

>>BLUSH<< Thanks WN much appreciation and looking forward to an update on the two of you soon.

 

Lions, you've dropped a lot of information on us here, thats good, the more info the better advice you will receive.

 

It sounds like your going about the seperation in the right way at least. There are ground rules and also legal avenues you can use to protect your interest in the house so that will not be a concern.

 

I will say I'm not always a big fan of separations. Most of the time they are taken in haste and without asking the right questions. More often then not it turns out to be a way to "try out" the single life without committing to it.

 

So heres a few questions for you...

How does he feel about you?

Any grievences on that side that may be contributing to the troubles between you?

What do you hope to accomplish with the separation?

Most importantly, if you had your wish, what outcome would you chose for yourself?

 

Plenty to be said here, but I'm curious how you answer these.

TOJAZ

[Lions89]

I will say I'm not always a big fan of separations. Most of the time they are taken in haste and without asking the right questions. More often then not it turns out to be a way to "try out" the single life without committing to it.

 

So heres a few questions for you...

How does he feel about you?

Any grievences on that side that may be contributing to the troubles between you?

What do you hope to accomplish with the separation?

Most importantly, if you had your wish, what outcome would you chose for yourself?

 

Plenty to be said here, but I'm curious how you answer these.

TOJAZ

 

Trust me, this is not in haste at all. I've mentioned separation multiple times previously, which may or may not have been in haste, but this isn't a knee-jerk reaction.

 

To answer your questions...

 

He loves me, and hates the idea of separation. I hate the idea, too, but feel I need it at this point. Right now all I do is see all the negative things that drive me up the wall and make me want to leave. I want to remove myself from that daily reminder, and really sit back and evaluate the pros and cons from a more unbiased viewpoint (it will never be unbiased, but it's too hard to be in it daily), focus on the positive and not on the negative. I need to learn what's most important to me in a relationship, and learn if I can accept his flaws as well as he has accepted mine. (Yes, I know I have them, and I know he's really a good man for accepting them.) And if this helps him grow in the process, even better. But I can't expect him to change. I need to figure this out based on who he is today.

 

I don't think there are any grievances at all. I'm not sure what "on that side" means.

 

What I really want to accomplish is a sure direction one way or the other. I've been on the fence for years regarding staying or leaving. I've been in therapy for years about this. We've been in therapy for close to 2 years about this. I need to 100% commit one way or the other, and stop being on the fence. I either need to be 100% in this to the end, to accept fully the man that I married, even if it isn't what I imagined for myself, or to let it go. Either way, I want to move forward confident that I made the right decision based on everything.

 

My wish would absolutely be to be happy and stay in this marriage. If I can only have one of those two things, then I want to be happy. I'm sick of being miserable.

 

I didn't get married to get divorced. We both came from divorced homes, different circumstances, but we saw what it did. We don't have kids, so that element is removed. But we both never looked at divorce as the "easy way out." We have both put a lot of work into making this work.

 

I'm not "testing the waters" as a single person. I am not going out and hooking up with random guys at bars. I honestly really need to find myself. I got lost somewhere in there.

 

We talked tonight, and when I told him that it was okay for him to stay and I would leave, he said that he thought about it and also saw my viewpoint. But really, if I'm going to accept him, he needs to stay and I need to go. And if I want to return, I need to ask him to accept me back.

 

 

I'm so thankful that I found this place where I could talk about all of this anonymously and get valuable feedback. I hope that I can pass that along to others. Thank you.

[Steadfast]

Many years ago I was visiting with my mom's best friend. I had just divorced my first wife and she was asking how I was, what had happened, etc. So I told her.

 

Her response is something I'll never forget. She explained that many times through the course of their (very long) marriage, she had been so mad at him she wanted to hit him over the head. She went on to say he was often a stubborn, dim-witted stick in the mud and no one she had ever known had made her so angry.

 

But...he was hers. Literally, a part of her. As mad as she got, or as bad as things were (and trust me, they did endure a lot...especially pertaining to their kids) she dismissed thoughts of leaving him and stuck it out.

 

Just last year, this woman died of complications resulting from dementia. And this man...clueless as he was, turned out to be the only thing that stood between her and a life strapped to a hospital bed, waiting to die. He cared for her, he looked after her. He cooked and cleaned where before, he had never even boiled water. This went on for over three years. At her funeral, I told him how much of an inspiration he was. He looked at me with tear-filled eyes and said "She was my girl."

 

So...do what you have to do. But, in my opinion people sometimes forget that life is an endurance; not a sprint. Let only what is truly right influence you. Nothing else.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Steadfast

[WorldIsYours]

Someone has the GIG syndrome.

[Lions89]

Really? Care to explain?