Why is there no empathy for bitter men?

[Distant78]

I would say 1/3-2/3 of the women in the OW forum are MOW and they get 24/7 sympathy. Anyone who breaks that rule gets flamed and later banned.

 

So true.

 

A little bit of criticism should not rock your world. A good chunk of those young female posters are causing their own problems. Actually go in and really look deep at the advice many of those young girls are given. Many times female LS members just blame the guy.

 

So true.

[donnamaybe]

I keep seeing all these references to threads about women acting like complete a-holes and getting props from other women. However, when asked to provide proof, all I've seen thus far is, "Well, I can't find the thread, but I remember..." Sorry. I'm not buyin' it.

 

I know there could be a few people with that sort of mindset, but I see words like, "...and all the women in that thread were giving her high fives..." BS. Prove it. It's just not so. I know WAY too many women on LS who would rip into a woman who treats her man like crap, me being one of them.

[Distant78]

I keep seeing all these references to threads about women acting like complete a-holes and getting props from other women. However, when asked to provide proof, all I've seen thus far is, "Well, I can't find the thread, but I remember..." Sorry. I'm not buyin' it.

 

I know there could be a few people with that sort of mindset, but I see words like, "...and all the women in that thread were giving her high fives..." BS. Prove it. It's just not so. I know WAY too many women on LS who would rip into a woman who treats her man like crap, me being one of them.

 

Hey lady we don't feel like looking in the Ancient Book for old posts. Just extract it from our memories.

[Woggle]

I keep seeing all these references to threads about women acting like complete a-holes and getting props from other women. However, when asked to provide proof, all I've seen thus far is, "Well, I can't find the thread, but I remember..." Sorry. I'm not buyin' it.

 

I know there could be a few people with that sort of mindset, but I see words like, "...and all the women in that thread were giving her high fives..." BS. Prove it. It's just not so. I know WAY too many women on LS who would rip into a woman who treats her man like crap, me being one of them.

 

High fiving is a bit too extreme but there is an going thread right now where a woman cheated on her husband and now since the OM only wanted a fling she is treated as the victim. I worked with two women that high fived each other about cheating and with a few exceptions I never see anything that extreme.

[donnamaybe]

Hey lady we don't feel like looking in the Ancient Book for old posts. Just extract it from our memories.

But the memory of a person who is bitter toward women is naturally going to slowly evolve said memory into something slanted toward more hatred of women.

[donnamaybe]

High fiving is a bit too extreme but there is an going thread right now where a woman cheated on her husband and now since the OM only wanted a fling she is treated as the victim. I worked with two women that high fived each other about cheating and with a few exceptions I never see anything that extreme.

 

Since that is a current thread of which you are aware, it shouldn't be hard for you to post a link for us.

[Woggle]

Since that is a current thread of which you are aware, it shouldn't be hard for you to post a link for us.

 

Right here. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t266697/

[Untouchable_Fire]

I keep seeing all these references to threads about women acting like complete a-holes and getting props from other women. However, when asked to provide proof, all I've seen thus far is, "Well, I can't find the thread, but I remember..." Sorry. I'm not buyin' it.

I know there could be a few people with that sort of mindset, but I see words like, "...and all the women in that thread were giving her high fives..." BS. Prove it. It's just not so. I know WAY too many women on LS who would rip into a woman who treats her man like crap, me being one of them.

 

First, you don't notice because you never do this kind of thing. You call everyone out regardless when they do something wrong.

 

Here are two famous examples:

 

When ShadowPlay convinced her then BF to let her cheat on him with his Best Friend. Of course she was the clear victim in this because her BF at the time wasn't giving her enough affirmation and attention.

 

When OceanGirl told her BF that he was bad in bed and actively tried to make him feel like he wasn't good enough. Again... this was his fault for lasting too long. One exception is of course DonnaMaybe, who was merciless with her.

[Woggle]

I missed that Shadowplay thread. I thought she was better than that.

 

Honestly I would rather a woman just make threads saying men suck and I hate them. I would rather deal with honest and in your face hatred than deal with the subtle antipathy that you see with some women. If you hate me because I have a penis just come right out and say it and I will sort of respect you for it.

[donnamaybe]

Right here. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t266697/

I read all the posts, and I didn't find anything like you described. Yes, she has a boyfriend. Yes, she cheated on him. The VERY first post after the opener reminded her to feel bad about the guy she cheated on. In NONE of the other posts did I see ANYONE giving her props for treating someone badly. I challenge you to find one.

[Woggle]

I read all the posts, and I didn't find anything like you described. Yes, she has a boyfriend. Yes, she cheated on him. The VERY first post after the opener reminded her to feel bad about the guy she cheated on. In NONE of the other posts did I see ANYONE giving her props for treating someone badly. I challenge you to find one.

 

They were not giving her props but she was still being treated as the victim. There is another thread by her where the women in that thread were saying that her husband made her do it.

[donnamaybe]

First, you don't notice because you never do this kind of thing. You call everyone out regardless when they do something wrong.

 

Here are two famous examples:

 

When ShadowPlay convinced her then BF to let her cheat on him with his Best Friend. Of course she was the clear victim in this because her BF at the time wasn't giving her enough affirmation and attention.

 

When OceanGirl told her BF that he was bad in bed and actively tried to make him feel like he wasn't good enough. Again... this was his fault for lasting too long. One exception is of course DonnaMaybe, who was merciless with her.

You noticed that, eh? That poor guy. There is no way in hell he could have EVER done anything good enough.

 

Listen, some people are just broken and not relationship material. Feel sorry for them rather than despising them. And do NOT make the mistake of attributing their behaviors to the rest of the population of their gender. Even women realize when another woman is to be avoided for a relationship. Sometimes there can never be enough "affirmation and attention."

[donnamaybe]

They were not giving her props but she was still being treated as the victim. There is another thread by her where the women in that thread were saying that her husband made her do it.

I'm sorry, but I didn't see anyone treating her like a victim. They were telling her they felt sorry for her emotional pain. BIG difference. They could have gone further and said, "But you brought it on yourself," but that wouldn't have done any good. I'm pretty sure she already knew that.

[Untouchable_Fire]

You noticed that, eh? That poor guy. There is no way in hell he could have EVER done anything good enough.

Listen, some people are just broken and not relationship material. Feel sorry for them rather than despising them. And do NOT make the mistake of attributing their behaviors to the rest of the population of their gender. Even women realize when another woman is to be avoided for a relationship. Sometimes there can never be enough "affirmation and attention."

 

I used those examples because they were extreme and from posters most people can remember.

 

However there are tons of other threads like "How can I tell if I'm stringing someone along"... and the OP is clearly stringing someone along. Only the men point that out and the female posters just provide sympathy. Probably because they see nothing wrong with stringing a guy along.

 

I'm sorry, but I didn't see anyone treating her like a victim. They were telling her they felt sorry for her emotional pain. BIG difference. They could have gone further and said, "But you brought it on yourself," but that wouldn't have done any good. I'm pretty sure she already knew that.

 

Actually... I'm in that thread a bit. I feel that I'm being very nice and helpful. However I'm not ignoring her culpability in this as the others are. For the primary reason that she has to find a way to deal with the guilt. She clearly isn't like the other OW posters who see all people except their precious MM as pawns to be sacrificed.

[Kamille]

First, you don't notice because you never do this kind of thing. You call everyone out regardless when they do something wrong.

 

Here are two famous examples:

 

When ShadowPlay convinced her then BF to let her cheat on him with his Best Friend. Of course she was the clear victim in this because her BF at the time wasn't giving her enough affirmation and attention.

 

When OceanGirl told her BF that he was bad in bed and actively tried to make him feel like he wasn't good enough. Again... this was his fault for lasting too long. One exception is of course DonnaMaybe, who was merciless with her.

 

Sorry, but I have to call you out on this revisionism. I was considered one of the "nicest" posters on both those threads and I still called both SP and OG on 1) mistreating her bf and 2) being tactless.

 

Everyone on those threads, both men and women, called SP and OG on their ****. No one felt they were victims.

 

You don't believe me? Go reread the threads.

[Pyro]

%#&^ you asswipe

 

clash of the douchbag trolls.

[Woggle]

I must be fair and say that OG got called out by pretty much everybody. I don't even remember the Shadowplay thread so I can't speak on it.

[Kamille]

I must be fair and say that OG got called out by pretty much everybody. I don't even remember the Shadowplay thread so I can't speak on it.

 

For those who want a refresher, here's Shadow's thread. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=144531

 

In the first page she doesn't really go into the details, but as the thread moves forward, you'll notice that all posters but Ariadne are calling for Shadow to take responsibility for her actions, with TBF leading the most vocal campaign. Both males and females are being hard on her.

 

OG's thread is very much the same way, except women posters were actually the most vocal about condemning her actions and, for many, her character. I was considered to be one of the posters "coddling" OG, and even then, my main point was that her actions were selfish, and that I wanted her to reflect on what made her act in this way and take responsibility for how she handled herself. Everyone agreed she was at fault for not telling him she needed a break. No one faulted him for lasting too long.

 

So the "proof" that women get an easy ride here on LS still has to be estalished.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Kamille

[jane100]

Women do not get an easy ride on LS, because of the angry and stupid guys who will attack her out of sport or bitterness, probably both ... I 've seen it on alot of threads.

 

Of course, sometimes there are more interesting discussions which is probably why you hang around . Plus Say-It-How-It-Is guys who have no bitter agenda, just a point of view and some interesting experience.

 

But I think we still need to call a spade a spade .... and not indulge an imaginery equality.

[HeavenOrHell]

I don't agree, I see as much sympathy for men here as I do for women, it would annoy me if men weren't treated the same as women here. There was pages and pages of slaying a woman called Ann who had feelings for someone else as she didn't love her husband, she wrote with remorse but both women and men came down on her like a ton of bricks, there was very little sympathy for her, that's just one example.

I've seen no differences in the treatment of men who have done wrong or in women who have done wrong.

How is it misandry more subtle when you're giving examples like 'men deserve to be cheated on', I wouldnt call that subtle It's blatantly wrong and out of order.

 

 

 

 

You have to understand that misandry is much more suble than misogyny. You see it with somebody like Megandoll who outright said that men deserve to be cheated on and you see it in the threads where a woman who is blatantly wrong will get sympathy a man will never get.

[sally4sara]

I still did not see anywhere in these threads being exampled anything like I've been talking about earlier. No "hey all men are this that and the other" dirty insults. No where was there advise for women to model the OP's behavior and treat men shabby as an act of revenge.

But we do see these kind of threads out of bitter men. And there is always other men amused by it and defending it in those threads.

 

Complain about subtle misandry but ignore blantant misogyny? Challenge women to behave with dignity and integrity, but value and find it understandable, even amusing when men operate with none?

 

The excuse that you give bitter men a pass for the dirt they talk on women as a whole because whatever past experience they've gone through somehow makes it all okay but then example a lack of empathy for Wayne B? Someone who is just out of high school and never had a relationship to be mistreated in? I and others try to give him sincere advise which he ignores; only making those threads so other men can bolster him on with the experiences he hasn't had.

 

No no no. There is nothing subtle in giving that mess a free pass, defending it even, but then getting in a twist if a woman isn't completely raked over the coals by everyone when she is NOT advising others to do as she has done and isn't defending her own actions by claiming its what all men deserve.

 

Think about it fellas. Its why you're seeing less empathy around here lately. You keep drawing a line in the sand, standing with every trash talking jackhole that comes through here, and more and more of the female posters will stop bothering to try and cross it and extend a sympathetic ear. If there must be a dividing line, how about drawing it between us, the men and women not selling hate, and the trash we've been infiltrated by? It would be the quickest way to see an improvement in the quality of compassion on this site. I've already decided for myself that if I don't see a decrease in the tolerance for these hateful, none productive, and antagonistic threads by the end of the Cherry Blossom Fest, I'm done with this ever degrading site. I don't entertain trash IRL, why would I come to a site where I have to wade through it to help others who find it amusing?

[Mme. Chaucer]

For those who want a refresher, here's Shadow's thread. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=144531

 

Since the poster sometimes known as Shadowplay is no longer with us, I think it is permissible to say that the entire linked thread seems to me to be nothing more than successful attention seeking fiction; some slightly skillful trolling.

 

Gender wars, bitter men, or whatever, I find it very sad when such garbage garners so very much attention when people sincerely seeking help can be virtually ignored. That being said, I also took similar bait from that poster and some of her friends / alters. I guess we love drama, and juicy tripe such as that inspire us more than the mundane.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

 

Complain about subtle misandry but ignore blantant misogyny? Challenge women to behave with dignity and integrity, but value and find it understandable, even amusing when men operate with none?

 

 

If there must be a dividing line, how about drawing it between us, the men and women not selling hate, and the trash we've been infiltrated by? It would be the quickest way to see an improvement in the quality of compassion on this site.

 

Yes, yes, yes. Just say "NO" to the hate, and stop permitting OURSELVES the easy out of vast generalizations. Please.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Sorry, but I have to call you out on this revisionism. I was considered one of the "nicest" posters on both those threads and I still called both SP and OG on 1) mistreating her bf and 2) being tactless.

Everyone on those threads, both men and women, called SP and OG on their ****. No one felt they were victims.

You don't believe me? Go reread the threads.

 

First of all: what's with the all or nothing thinking OG? You're putting your whole relationship on the line because of a first night of marathon sex? I mean, you had sex 3 times... you were an active participant for most of those 5 hours and I'm going to assume that along with trying to "prove your attractiveness", you also took some time to enjoy yourself and enjoy the intimacy. I think you're focusing way too much on "what went wrong" and not enough on "what went right".

So first thing: a relationship needs time and room to grow. It also needs trust. There will be issues. If your first response to every issue is to question the whole relationship, you're cutting down the potential for healthy relationship-building communication. Put another way: you said yes to this relationship. Now stop questioning it and start working to build it.

Second thing: I think you reached the point of being rude because you let your own desire to please over-ride your enjoyment of what was happening. You let the moment when you could have gently and openly asked for a break slip by and pushed yourself to the point where you, instead, got upset by how long it was taking him to come. This is sex: you are responsible for your enjoyment. In the future, if you feel yourself getting sore: tell him so! Gently, nicely and then, if you stop, make sure that you cuddle and make him feel cherished.

Third thing: Please tell me you understand that usually, when a man is into a woman, his top priority is pleasing her. Your guy's ego just took an extreme blow. He knows he disappointed you. In bed! (Poor guy) Like Sweet J, I worry that you just upped his performance anxiety ten-fold.

I'm glad you took the first step and told him you were thinking about him.

Here's is what I would do if I were you: next time you speak to him (in person), talk to him about the things he did in bed that you loved. Hopefully you have it in you to take responsibility for yourself and to apologize for how you communicated your need to take a break. Establish a better code that allows you to gently communicate that you need a break. Next time it happens: be playful (not harsh).

This can blow over if you choose to see it as an integral part of learning about each other and how to communicate with each other.

 

So, here is what you actually said. To a poster who was literally just using a guy for her own emotional validation, and was treating him in a completely unacceptable way.

 

I'm sorry but you are 100 times harsher in a thread where a guy says "all women do ____".

 

If you can find it within yourself to dress that guy down with super harsh language... a guy who has done nothing bad to anybody... Why do you feel the need to coddle and empathize a woman who is HORRIBLE to her BF?

 

You literally took the position that the whole thing was his fault and that she just did some stuff to make the situation a little worse. I'm not saying your advice was wrong... it was decent advice, it was just coming from a totally wrong angle.

[Anela]

 

Complain about subtle misandry but ignore blantant misogyny? Challenge women to behave with dignity and integrity, but value and find it understandable, even amusing when men operate with none?

 

I agreed with your whole post, but singled out this part, because this is exactly what I dealt with just recently - when I made the mistake of trying to make peace with the jackhole who hurt me (when I had been letting him go, and he ended up contacting me, telling me he loved me and was gratefulf or the part I've played in his life, blah, blah, blah).

 

He joke about women being fooled into thinking they're loved, he sent me an article about 'louts' (the latest trend for men), knowing I'd hate it, and that it depresses me every time I'm reminded of how many of these guys are out there. He defends them, and says that women bring anything on themselves (even rape - WTH?). He briefly flips to the opposite point of view, back as Mr. Unconditionally Loving (ever since he had an epiphany), only to rage against something else.

 

Woggle: I would have been so much better off, had I not been so sensitive to this guy's feelings, because he was insensitive to mine. I set boundaries, but he would work his way back around them.. this guy that I thought was healthy (at first), and I was so happy to meet/befriend/possibly have more with, sucked the life out of me, stuck me on a roller-coaster, and left me with crushed self-esteem (though recovering - I told him where to go, when he tried to control me last week). He's messed up, and that's where my sensitivity to his pain got *me*. I knew better, and should have stayed away. My life wasn't 100% happy before I met him, but I felt pretty damned good about myself before the roller-coaster. and he would somehow reach out either when he could see I was fine without him (he knows a couple of places I post online), or if I was so upset, that I might be so vulnerable that I wouldn't argue and would just be sooo appreciative of having some attention from the jackass.

 

I see my own mistakes. I remember him posting something on FB that disturbed me in late 2008 (late 2008! god damn it), and then told him where to go in early 2009, because he tried to control me. He contacted me weeks after that, only to hurt me the week after I'd had a significant loss, and then when my dad almost ended up in the hospital. He then gave me some sob story in April of that year, about how he didn't feel good abut himself where women were concerned, etc, etc... and I felt a little more understanding. I was the female equivalent of the emotional tampon, and he was interested in me, as well as others, but refused to take a leap until he thought there might be a net (at the time, I was wishing to meet someone else, and that he would be happy). He preyed on me, in ways. I'm an idiot, who is trying to figure out how I let this guy affect me for three effing years, and he is a colossal douchebag who needs more help than he realizes. Being all soft with him, didn't help him much at all. Setting boundaries gave him a challenge, or something to piss him off and decide that all women are bitches. Last year, I saw him saying somewhere, that a serial killer would never have killed women, had he had a good experience with them... um, this was a popular guy, who had women swooning (the serial killer). I am such an idiot! and so is he. I should have run at the first red flag.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Anela