Amy Chua: The Battle Hymn of a Tiger Mother

[tami-chan]

This has generated a lot of negative responses from "western moms"-even death threats to the author. What do you think?

 

http://www.channelapa.com/2011/01/battle-hymn-of-the-tiger-mom-by-amy-chua.html

 

I understand where the author, Amy Chua was coming from. My own parents were very strict and my siblings and I understood the only grade we can bring home-it was not even discussed. ( so, can you just imagine what happened when I eloped at 18? HA! :eek:)...

[sally4sara]

This has generated a lot of negative responses from "western moms"-even death threats to the author. What do you think?

 

http://www.channelapa.com/2011/01/battle-hymn-of-the-tiger-mom-by-amy-chua.html

 

I understand where the author, Amy Chua was coming from. My own parents were very strict and my siblings and I understood the only grade we can bring home-it was not even discussed. ( so, can you just imagine what happened when I eloped at 18? HA! :eek:)...

 

From the article:

 

"The Chinese believe the best way to protect children is by preparing them for the future and arming them with skills, strong work habits, and merited inner confidence."

 

Either I'm Chinese and unaware of it or its really not a hard thing for "western parents" to grasp after all. Maybe some people are just lazy?

[tami-chan]

From the article:

 

"The Chinese believe the best way to protect children is by preparing them for the future and arming them with skills, strong work habits, and merited inner confidence."

 

Either I'm Chinese and unaware of it or its really not a hard thing for "western parents" to grasp after all. Maybe some people are just lazy?

;

She also did not allow her kids to:

 

• attend a sleepover
  
• have a playdate
  
• be in a school play
  
• complain about not being in a school play
  
• watch TV or play computer games
  
• choose their own extracurricular activities
  
• get any grade less than an A
  
• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama
  
• play any instrument other than the piano or violin
  
• not play the piano or violin.
  

Which is interesting and I laugh about it in a sad way because the things listed above bring back memories on how my own mother, our very own "Iron Butterfly" parented us..... <sigh>...

 

Many times (even to this day) as a parent myself, I catch myself sounding like my mother in conversations I have with my own daughter and those times bother me... I'd like to think I struck a balance when it comes to parenting-time will tell...

[sally4sara]

I'm not so stringent but I do have some similarities in what I expect out of my son. He does have to try out for every activity that holds try outs, but I let him decide if he wants to participate when he is chosen. Average grades are unacceptable because he is not an average student. He has a bill he pays and a job (not household chores; those are part of being a member of this family) he works to pay it. Its just his cell phone/data bill.

I do let him have a sleep over for his Bday, but that is falling out of fashion with him as he is getting older. He is allowed to play video games if all his homework and our required reading is done. We give him books to choose from that are not school material and expect a particular page amount to be read everyday but Saturday.

And he isn't made to learn an instrument but he knows he can if he'd like. Instead he takes extra science or math classes in a John Hopkins talent program he was offered.

 

I don't think the author of the book is getting hate mail for her methods. I think its probably more to do with the suggestion that her ethnicity makes her innately a better parent than an other ethnicity is capable of achieving. Her parenting methods are fine, but she'd reach more people if the book didn't discriminate. That's the whole point of writing a book - to connect with the readers. Not alienate them.

[amerikajin]

I have to preface this by saying I haven't read the book, so it's perhaps a bit unfair to be opinionated about it until I do.

 

On the one hand, I agree that a lot of families are soft and don't establish standards of behavior, and they don't take corrective action when they see their kid screw up. I think having standards and being strict is what a parent should be, but I'm sorry, telling a child that they're 'worthless' and ridiculing them when they fail...that's crossing a line. Sure, children deal with it, but they carry around their misery and resentment with them as adults. I've known parents who were tough but knew which buttons to push and which ones not to.

[tami-chan]

I have to preface this by saying I haven't read the book, so it's perhaps a bit unfair to be opinionated about it until I do.

 

On the one hand, I agree that a lot of families are soft and don't establish standards of behavior, and they don't take corrective action when they see their kid screw up. I think having standards and being strict is what a parent should be, but I'm sorry, telling a child that they're 'worthless' and ridiculing them when they fail...that's crossing a line. Sure, children deal with it, but they carry around their misery and resentment with them as adults. I've known parents who were tough but knew which buttons to push and which ones not to.

 

I agree...hurtful words really do not need to be said by a parent her kids. My mother was very quiet and never said anything mean...but she was very strict----of course, I rebelled ( I am after all, a "westerner"....LOL...kidding!).

[JustJoe]

We were expected to be 1. courteous and open-minded to all, and especially to seniors, Ladies, and the less fortunate. 2. Get good grades, learn a language, and play a musical instrument. 3. Play at least 2 sports. 4. Work, work, work. 5. To do your duty. 6. Honesty. I can remember to this day, my father reading Kipling's Poem "the law of the Jungle", to us.

[amerikajin]

I agree...hurtful words really do not need to be said by a parent her kids. My mother was very quiet and never said anything mean...but she was very strict----of course, I rebelled ( I am after all, a "westerner"....LOL...kidding!).

 

Wait, did we just agree on something? I haven't had any booze yet, so maybe I'm going through withdrawal symptoms already.

[Els]

This thing has been circling around, and it is utterly disgusting. It is so disgusting that I sometimes wonder if Amy Chua exaggerated things on purpose as a publicity stunt, as she must have known how controversial it would be.

 

The saddest thing is, that some of my older friends from my Asian homeland agree with her. I personally think it is dip****, however, especially as my experience in a foreign country has shown me that the kids here are generally far better behaved than the ones back home. I have no doubt that it is because they were treated as adults, with respect and reasoning, rather than hit and insulted for every little thing.

 

The picture of Amy smugly standing by her forced-to-practice kids makes me want to take away all her entertainment and confine her in a room to study for hours, though. You get what you give.

[Els]

I'm not so stringent but I do have some similarities in what I expect out of my son. He does have to try out for every activity that holds try outs, but I let him decide if he wants to participate when he is chosen. Average grades are unacceptable because he is not an average student. He has a bill he pays and a job (not household chores; those are part of being a member of this family) he works to pay it. Its just his cell phone/data bill.

I do let him have a sleep over for his Bday, but that is falling out of fashion with him as he is getting older. He is allowed to play video games if all his homework and our required reading is done. We give him books to choose from that are not school material and expect a particular page amount to be read everyday but Saturday.

And he isn't made to learn an instrument but he knows he can if he'd like. Instead he takes extra science or math classes in a John Hopkins talent program he was offered.

 

I don't think the author of the book is getting hate mail for her methods. I think its probably more to do with the suggestion that her ethnicity makes her innately a better parent than an other ethnicity is capable of achieving. Her parenting methods are fine, but she'd reach more people if the book didn't discriminate. That's the whole point of writing a book - to connect with the readers. Not alienate them.

 

S4S, your methods are COMPLETELY different from hers. I think people disagree with both - her methods AND her claim of them being superior.

[tami-chan]

We were expected to be 1. courteous and open-minded to all, and especially to seniors, Ladies, and the less fortunate. 2. Get good grades, learn a language, and play a musical instrument. 3. Play at least 2 sports. 4. Work, work, work. 5. To do your duty. 6. Honesty. I can remember to this day, my father reading Kipling's Poem "the law of the Jungle", to us.

 

Cool...is that the norm in your community? Growing up, the other Asians I knew did the same things I did...not all..but most.

[tami-chan]

S4S, your methods are COMPLETELY different from hers. I think people disagree with both - her methods AND her claim of them being superior.

 

I think her book is about how she navigated being a mother and parenting two daughters in a western setting and how she was humbled when her 13 year old rebelled against her. It is not a how-to book.

[tami-chan]

This thing has been circling around, and it is utterly disgusting. It is so disgusting that I sometimes wonder if Amy Chua exaggerated things on purpose as a publicity stunt, as she must have known how controversial it would be.

 

The saddest thing is, that some of my older friends from my Asian homeland agree with her. I personally think it is dip****, however, especially as my experience in a foreign country has shown me that the kids here are generally far better behaved than the ones back home. I have no doubt that it is because they were treated as adults, with respect and reasoning, rather than hit and insulted for every little thing.

 

The picture of Amy smugly standing by her forced-to-practice kids makes me want to take away all her entertainment and confine her in a room to study for hours, though. You get what you give.

 

I do not agree with some of her language....but I know several Amy Chuas in my lifetime....I am not disgusted by her. Her own parents (Filipinos of Chinese ethnicity) were very strict. Her father is some brilliant engineer. Her sister is also very accomplished. Even her other sister, who has Downs syndrome is a world class athlete in the special olympics.

 

Children need guidance. Children need to be shown what is considered good and what is considered excellent-and that excellence is something they are to achieve. I think many parents are so easily accepting of mediocre performance of their kids.

[sb129]

I can see where she was coming from in parts, but much of it depends on what you define as "successful".

 

I don't necessarily think that top notch grades and being excellent at the violin is "success".

 

I did my degree with a few kids who had obviously been raised by 'chinese' moms, and they struggled with the practical aspects of my course and also with the social requirements.

 

Most of them hadn't interacted that much with other people their own age, and because they hadn't had extracurricular jobs or other activities, they struggled to relate to and communicate with members of the general public.

 

There is no western word for "hikikomori" because I think by and large in 'western' society people who aren't 'successful' by the standards Amy Chua sets out are still accepted into society and catered for.

[Els]

@tami: Of course they do. Children do not need to be forced to play music (which is a thing of beautiful expression and love), forbidden to join the drama club, forbidden to make friends and have play dates, or called garbage, however.

 

There is a HUGE spectrum between 'Easily accepting mediocrity' and 'doing what Amy does'.

[sb129]

Children need guidance. Children need to be shown what is considered good and what is considered excellent-and that excellence is something they are to achieve. I think many parents are so easily accepting of mediocre performance of their kids.

 

Maybe they are realistic that not all children can be rocket scientists?

 

In my country there was a huge influx of people into university when I was doing my undergrad degree, and the trades suffered. There were less tradespeople and more university graduates, many of whom had degrees that didn't really prepare them for any kind of job.

The graduate job market became (and still is) very competitive and the number of unemployed graduates makes up nearly a quarter of the unemployed population.

 

Tradespeople however are still doing really well- fewer tradespeople means that business is still booming, and the guys who went into trades when I started university now make as much money as I do- and didn't have to pay thousands of dollars in student loans to get where they are.

[sb129]

Elswyth- there is also a difference between someone who plays music technically perfectly and someone who plays from the heart...

 

I know what I prefer to listen to.

[tami-chan]

@tami: Of course they do. Children do not need to be forced to play music (which is a thing of beautiful expression and love), forbidden to join the drama club, forbidden to make friends and have play dates, or called garbage, however.

 

There is a HUGE spectrum between 'Easily accepting mediocrity' and 'doing what Amy does'.

 

My mother made me choose between the violin or piano...but we hear /listened to classical music in my house and it actually was natural that we choose one or the other-there was no resistance. Here's an interesting thing: I did the violin or piano choice with my own daughter and she chose GUITAR ! I am not going to lie, I was disappointed (and wondered where it came from-must be from her father's side )but tried very hard to hide it. She wanted to play rock...(oh god, why????? haha)...I told her, she needed to take classical guitar lessons and then play the kind of music she liked in her leisure time. She did. When we vacationed in Spain, we had a chance to watch a concert by this famous Spanish Classic guitarist...she was mesmerized...still..she can play No Doubt's "Don't Speak" , very, very well! Electric guitars courtesy of her father.

 

I actually really think that parents give their children too much responsibility in deciding what they should go into. I mean, how can they know that they like the piano or violin or any musical instrument for that matter? Parents should instill the values of why it is important to have the discipline to perfect a piano or violin piece or...why music is important.

 

I was not allowed ever to sleep over as a kid....I did not allow my daughter either. But I did invite her friends on weekends and she was allowed to take a friend or two with her during family vacations.

[sb129]

You know, there is no right or wrong answer. You found a book by an author who you can relate to. Great.

 

I can't relate to it. Thats not to say I am "wrong" or slack". I am still successful, even by the high standards of Amy Chua, and I am happy, but its not because of my 'success'.

 

If my daughter is happy with her life when she is my age, thats all I really want.

 

Or course we will encourage her to do well at school and to pursue extracurricular activities, but not at the expense of her social development.

 

Some of my closest friends are friends I have had since I was in kindergarten, we went through school together. Other close friends are from university days.

My friendships are very important to me and enrich my life in a way that no degree or amount of money can.

 

Interesting point here TC- you haven't stated whether you are happy? Is your daughter? Have you got good close friends?

 

What is your response to some of the statements I made in my previous post?

 

What about people who have kids who just aren't academically gifted- should they try and shove their square peg kids into round holes?

[Star Gazer]

Or course we will encourage her to do well at school and to pursue extracurricular activities, but not at the expense of her social development.

 

Wonderbaby is so sweet, and her social development (at the beach) looks like it's progressing quite well! What a darling!

 

You're a fabulous momma, SB.

[Els]

My mother made me choose between the violin or piano...but we hear /listened to classical music in my house and it actually was natural that we choose one or the other-there was no resistance. Here's an interesting thing: I did the violin or piano choice with my own daughter and she chose GUITAR ! I am not going to lie, I was disappointed (and wondered where it came from-must be from her father's side )but tried very hard to hide it. She wanted to play rock...(oh god, why????? haha)...I told her, she needed to take classical guitar lessons and then play the kind of music she liked in her leisure time. She did. When we vacationed in Spain, we had a chance to watch a concert by this famous Spanish Classic guitarist...she was mesmerized...still..she can play No Doubt's "Don't Speak" , very, very well! Electric guitars courtesy of her father.

 

This is great. Glad to see you didn't do the Amy Chua thing and forbade her to learn guitar while forcing her into piano/violin.

 

I actually really think that parents give their children too much responsibility in deciding what they should go into. I mean, how can they know that they like the piano or violin or any musical instrument for that matter? Parents should instill the values of why it is important to have the discipline to perfect a piano or violin piece or...why music is important.

 

I was not allowed ever to sleep over as a kid....I did not allow my daughter either. But I did invite her friends on weekends and she was allowed to take a friend or two with her during family vacations.

Forcing someone to practice for 3 hours a day on an instrument is no way to teach them why music is important, sorry. Forbidding a child to go into a drama club is also asinine.

 

You are simply quoting stuff that worked, that are a more 'moderate' version of what the author is doing. That does not prove anything about the reliability of the book. Why do you quote stuff that you did and was successful, if it is not similar to the book? The whole point I am trying to make is that Amy is too close-minded and extreme for her own good. Of course there are some principles that she quotes that make sense, such as believing in your children and encouraging them to attain excellence. That does not mean her methods and mindset in achieving them is okay.

 

I have grown up among people whose parents were like her. Trust me, this sort of training does them no good, and only robs them of their childhood. In general, they grow up very selfish, willing to backstab anyone and give up anything to attain (a very narrow definition of) success, close-minded, and simply not people that others want to be with, unless they come from similar backgrounds.

 

Worse yet, they are not actually more successful in general than people who actually were allowed to enjoy their childhood within reason. I hate to say this, but there is a reason why Western countries in general offer a better quality of life than Asian ones.

[Els]

Elswyth- there is also a difference between someone who plays music technically perfectly and someone who plays from the heart...

 

I know what I prefer to listen to.

 

Precisely. The so-called geniuses who support such an extremist traditional Chinese upbringing and education are also, for the most part, lacking of true 'intelligence', as defined by the ability to produce rational thought. They cannot develop and defend an opinion of their own soundly, have no creativity, and are unable to solve a logical problem which falls beyond their scope of intense practice. They are the 'maths whizzes' who cannot solve Einstein's riddle, the 'music prodigies' who have never truly lost themselves in a piece of musical beauty... and the 'professors', like Amy, who despite being in a profession where open-mindedness and thinking outside the box is encouraged, cannot see any other POV but their own.

 

P.S. Before anyone thinks I'm being racist, allow me to add the disclaimer that I am indeed Chinese myself, and had the ill fortune to attend a 2-year prep and 4-year college course in which 90% of the class was brought up in the above manner. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Elswyth

[Els]

Oh, btw, I hope this isn't derailing the thread (please feel free to ignore if you think it is), but I think this is a handy example. Regarding the class I spoke about in my previous post, we had an elective subject in which we could choose one of four possible modules each to take. The number of seats in each module was limited to 25% of the class, and one of the modules was generally known to be 'the easiest to score in'. To make things fair, the admin told us that it was first come first serve, whoever was at the office first from 8am onwards would receive their choice first, and so on. Guess what time those people started lining up outside the office???

[amerikajin]

One thing I notice in my wife (Chinese) is that their upbringing is definitely a harsher existence than our own. She's a great woman, whom I admire deeply, but when I hear her tell me about the upbringing of the average Chinese child, I'm somewhat taken aback. And although there are marked differences between the Chinese and other Asian societies like Japan, I noticed some similarities in Japanese children when I was living in Japan. My impression is, in Asian societies, you either do or you don't. You either succeed or you don't. You either maintain and protect the family's good name, or you bring shame. There's no in between. There's no careful attempt at being fair and objective in one's analysis of a person. I think that parents in Asian societies are foremost concerned with raising children to meet these expectations and to survive in this kind of environment. That's just a reality that a lot of Americans (even Westerners generally) are not accustomed to, so it's shocking when Americans see this.

 

I know people will say that they should 'change' when they come here, but it's not always so easy, and besides, a lot of the discipline that Asian parents instill in their children works to the advantage of children in a society like ours. The difference between a child becoming successful, self-reliant, and financially-independent in this society is discipline -- something that Asian parents seem to know a lot about. I think I can understand what tami's saying, and I see it in just about every Asian person I know: it is assumed that they will succeed. Period. No questions. Failure isn't an option. Bringing home bad grades or misbehaving in school isn't an option. For many American parents, though, it is. It's a personal "choice" and a lot of American parents are willing to let their children face the adverse consequences on their own. When you look at it that way, in some respects, you could even make the argument that this is probably as cruel as being a Tiger Mother.

 

I see this similar to the way tami sees it: I agree that it's crossing a line when you verbally abuse a child with comments such as being 'worthless'. There's no need for that. But being demanding and tough, even slightly abrasive at times, is probably for the child's best in the long run. It's better to over-discipline someone, to be occasionally too harsh (provided we're not talking about real abuse here), than it is to be too soft. I've seen both sides of this coin in my own family, and trust me, being too soft has far worse consequences.

Edited January 19, 2011 by amerikajin

[sally4sara]

S4S, your methods are COMPLETELY different from hers. I think people disagree with both - her methods AND her claim of them being superior.

 

I notice some differences, but I chalked them up to different ideas of what defines success. Such as the piano/violin thing. I don't identify knowing how to play those instruments (or any instrument really) as a necessary component of success. My husband and his sis had to take piano lessons. Maybe it had something to do with my husband and his ability to be successful (he no longer plays), but it didn't do anything for his sister.

And I believe in the carrot dangling, where as it would seem this woman doesn't. Its do or consequences. Instead I say do and receive (something he wants), don't do and face consequences. I feel that is more how life works for adults. Things you want require hard work. If you worked hard at your job and had nothing to show for the effort - wouldn't you go looking for another job?

I'm also more about him knowing he can achieve things he wants to do and also capable of creating options as he needs them rather than forcing him to achieve everything possible.

But I won't rob him of a childhood in the process.