theBrokenMuse Posted October 8, 2010 Posted October 8, 2010 (edited) The argument is whether this is an outdated tradition that reinforces women as inferior beings in society. I don't think it reinforces women as inferior as much as it reinforces that our particular mating/courting system is one of males courting females which is par for the course when it comes to mammals. I am not sure why there ever was the leap in logic to create this dynamic of males courting females = females are inferior. Personally to me it seems to stem from a very black and white sort of worldview in which when females do not match the aggression of males in every arena it is a sign of weakness and/or inferiority to males. It almost feels like some folks think being equals means being carbon copies of one another which is just absurd. Edited October 8, 2010 by theBrokenMuse
dispatch3d Posted October 8, 2010 Posted October 8, 2010 Unforgettable Fire, you have issues. You have this intense need to label American women a joke (despite or perhaps because this category includes your mother, sisters, aunts, grandmas, etc). Meanwhile "foreign" women are all lovely flowers desperate to make a man happy (regardless of which of the hundreds of countries or cultures she comes from). You say you aren't making claims about paying for dinner makes a man more likely to rape you but you started the thread with If you wanted to defend men who choose to go dutch (something I don't have a problem with) there are better ways to do it than by saying "guys who are gentleman probably think rape is okay." That_girl, The accusing nature of your posts is leading to people becoming very defensive. It's also causing you to waste an incredible amount of emotional energy on this that are unnecessary to do so. I'm sure you can think of some ways yourself you could seem more impartial, rather than accusing and critical of others.
EasyHeart Posted October 8, 2010 Posted October 8, 2010 No, you simply have a poor understanding of what people are discussing. It's not a matter of should you do this to get further with women - on the whole, I think almost all men would agree that paying for the date will get you further than not paying. The argument is whether this is an outdated tradition that reinforces women as inferior beings in society. Social conventions often need to be reevaluated, or black people would still be working in the fields and women would be at home and unable to own property or vote. What has always been is not equal to what should be in the future.No, I understand you quite well. And it's a stupid argument. If people buying me things and doing things for me makes me "inferior", sign me up! I want to be inferior!!!
BruceLeroy Posted October 8, 2010 Posted October 8, 2010 Personally, I think its all a set up. As men we were taught that earning money is part of being a man. Having a job and being able to see to your own needs is to be your own man. But we are competitive. Im gonna be more a man than you! I can see to not just my needs but the needs of another person! And it seems to me that some women have been taught that theri worth is measure by how much or how many men they can find willing to spend money on them. Getting more that the next woman or previous woman means they are more woman than others. I think it comes down to just how geniunly generous a man really is in this silly mating game. If he is only coughin up the papers to prove he is more man, he mihgt not really enjoy the act of generosity and expect some return on his investment. Can anyone say surprise sex? But just like a kid watching a violent video game going out and killing classmates, its not the game that caused it so much as there was something wrong in the kids head to begin with. Otherwise all people who played that game would do the same. It matched this subject too. If paying for a meal means to one guy that he has a right to force sex on his date, its not because he paid the tab. He paid the tab because he was goign to rape to begin with and the act of paying rids him of guilt.
donnamaybe Posted October 8, 2010 Posted October 8, 2010 I think it comes down to just how geniunly generous a man really is in this silly mating game. If he is only coughin up the papers to prove he is more man, he mihgt not really enjoy the act of generosity and expect some return on his investment. That's precisely that UF has been trying to say, but people keep trying to sidetrack the real issue.
gypsy_nicky Posted October 8, 2010 Posted October 8, 2010 I was thinking yesterday of the guys who strongly embrace traditional dating roles. The ones I know typically give me the feel of just acting the gentleman. Yet it seemed they had massive support from the women on this board. So I looked up studies regarding the different schools of thought. This matches the general trend I've seen in real life. You may think the guy is a fantastic gentleman for paying. It also means there is a good chance he considers raping you justified under some circumstances. "One out of 12 men admitted to having fulfilled the prevailing definition of rape or attempted rape, yet none identified himself as a rapist. Subsequent studies at individual colleges have confirmed these figures. They indicate that date rape occurs all over the country, in every socioeconomic group and at every age. The main victims, however, are women between 15 and 24. . . . Gloria Fischer, a psychologist, surveyed more than 400 students at Washington State University and found that 5 percent of the women and 19 percent of the men did not define forcible sex or the man's coercion as unacceptable behavior. Rather, they felt that, UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, it might be acceptable for a man to force sex on his companion. These included if the couple had been dating for a long time, if she had let him fondle her, if she wasn't a virgin or if she had "led him on". . . . Three Texas psychologists probed the attitudes of 268 college men aged 19. The researchers found that the men fell into two groups: those who held traditional views of sex roles and those who didn't. The traditionalists thought that men, not women, should ask for dates, pay for dates, make decisions about dating activity and initiate any intimate behavior. The nontraditionalists believed in equality between the sexes. The men were presented with different scenarios. In some, the woman asked the man out or bore all the expenses of the evening. In others, the couple spent the evening alone in the man's apartment or went to a movie. The college men were asked to indicate in which of these dating situations the man would be justified in forcing his attention [notice the euphemism] on the woman against her will. The good news is that 80 percent of the men said that "rape" was never justified - under any circumstance. The bad news is that 20 percent felt that, in some instances, it was. Most of these men held traditional views of sex roles. They believed that a woman was leading a man on if she asked him for a date, went with him to hjis apartment or allowed him to pay for all the expenses. Most traditionalists, and even some nontraditionalists, believed that this implied a sexual invitation, which the woman had no right to withdraw later on." the sample size is adequate and university students are a relatively good indicator of human behavior patterns when compared to the general population. The study points out that sex roles= specific human mating behavior. 'paying for dates' is only a factor in the study like sex; Some use it for pleasure, some for love, some for power (rape), etc etc. They're only factors to various life schemas ex. belief in traditional sex roles or liberal gender roles . Its within context that men who hold traditional sex roles are more willing to rape/rape when they justify that they're behavior (paying for dates) gives them entitlement to sleep with the woman. This doesn't mean that liberal men cannot do or perform this act of 'paying for dates' because it is bound in negative sex roles, but rather they do it because of romanticized views on chivalry and being a gentleman.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted October 8, 2010 Author Posted October 8, 2010 Unforgettable Fire, you have issues. You have this intense need to label American women a joke (despite or perhaps because this category includes your mother, sisters, aunts, grandmas, etc). Meanwhile "foreign" women are all lovely flowers desperate to make a man happy (regardless of which of the hundreds of countries or cultures she comes from). You say you aren't making claims about paying for dinner makes a man more likely to rape you but you started the thread with If you wanted to defend men who choose to go dutch (something I don't have a problem with) there are better ways to do it than by saying "guys who are gentleman probably think rape is okay." I'm not defending guys who don't pay... some of them are creepy raper types too. I'm really just pointing out that the paying behavior has no bearing on what type of man he is, and if you ONLY date men who pay you weed out a significant portion of the quality guys. You think I'm Unforgettable? :love: This has to be one of the stupidest arguments yet posted on LS. When I buy a woman dinner or open a door for her, it is because I have learned that these are social conventions that make me more attractive to women. It has nothing to do with my wanting to control her or rape her. It's because I want a second (and third and fourth and . . . date). There seem to be a number of men on this site who aren't successful with women and therefore want to blame society instead of themselves. Women are not going to approach you, women are not going to ask you out, and women are not going to buy you things because that's just the way it is. You can sit there (alone) complaining about the injustice of women not asking you out and accusing any man who actually CAN get a date of being a rapist, but that doesn't make it true. Time to start dealing with reality, boys. I think this whole thread sailed completely over your head. No, I understand you quite well. And it's a stupid argument. If people buying me things and doing things for me makes me "inferior", sign me up! I want to be inferior!!! Still missing the point. That's precisely that UF has been trying to say, but people keep trying to sidetrack the real issue. I think it's because they agree with me. Women like you really have no need to pay attention to what I'm saying here. Your smart enough to tell when a guy sees you as an object, and won't put up with it. The ones that should be paying attention are the girls who can't tell the difference between a guy who buys them dinner because he cares about them... and the guys who just think it's cheaper than buying a prostitute.
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