What makes a man into the "nice guy" that has a tough time with the ladies?

[Labster12]

It is believed that nice guys finish last and nice guys typically do bad with the ladies. I have a friend who is considered the "nice guy" and he doesn't do well with the ladies (he will tell you that himself).

 

Anyways the "nice guy" is described as the guy who is unconfident or wimpy and has a tough time with the ladies. He is the guy constantly placed on the "just friends" list.

 

What makes the nice guy into the guy he is? Certain life experiences?

 

I

[USMCHokie]

What makes the nice guy into the guy he is?

 

Not placing what he wants first.

[Sazerac]

I think the inelegant term for being a "nice guy" is "weenie."

 

That being said, I would surmise that guys tend to get labeled as such when they are acting as human doormats and not standing up for themselves because they think that's what a woman is looking for (yeah, right.) When their actions do not produce results the "weenie" often turns bitter and wails about how girls only go for the "bad boys." Probably a lot more psychologically going on here, but that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

[Fouts]

You hit the nail on the head with lack of confidence. There's really no such thing as a nice guy kiss of death. Usually the nice guy is either insecure or lacks self esteem (even if they look good) and women pick up on that rather quickly.

[carhill]

What makes a man into the "nice guy" that has a tough time with the ladies?

A package of attributes which women 'like' but are not 'attracted to'. He's like a caring brother or father but not a man she wants to have ravish her and ride and make babies with.

 

I've found, once identified, it's easy to turn this on and off. This ability is part of how I enforce boundaries with married women. When I get a whiff of inappropriate attraction, I turn into 'brother' mode and they settle right down and no animals (or marriages) are harmed. The quickest and best way to kill a woman's desire is to become, even briefly, her 'therapist'. Works great.

 

IME, a clear path to attraction is to not care (intrinsically) about a woman's 'stuff' but rather about one's own stuff, as well as to show blatant sexual desire. Along with these aspects is not caring about her emotional responses. Ignore them in any meaningful way, but do give lip service to their expression. IOW, verbalize care (eg 'I see, sorry to hear that' or 'cool, that's great', etc) but do not feel care. She needs to earn that privilege by her clear and consistent words and actions. Don't provide any more care or interest than she earns.

 

Some women may respond negatively (it may appear) to this. This is a clear indicator that they are incompatible and/or are Hoovers. A compatible woman understands that relationships are built steadily through words and actions of mutual care, respect, and, later, love. They don't expect more than they're willing to give.

 

Remember this old fart adage: 'What do you have to offer me to keep me from spending this afternoon with my best friend BBQ'ing and drinking beer?' Think about that. Too many men (I was very guilty of this in my younger years) are willing to jump at even the smallest of female attentions. That's nice guy stuff. Find another, healthier path. Good luck

[somedude81]

Nice guys are often insecure and greatly care about what other people think of them. Certain peoples opinions are more "valuable" than others.

 

I'm a recovering nice guy and for some reason I really care about what women say to me and how they treat me. It bugs the hell out of me that I do this.

 

A couple of days ago I was in class and a girl behind me was talking to some guy about video games. I try to join into the conversation and she rudely says, "I wasn't talking to you." I don't even know the stupid girl's name and yet her words stung. Later on I heard her being rude to another girl and I realized that the girl who said that crap to me was just a bitch.

 

I really wish I could stop giving a damn about what people think of me, especially girls. I would have so much more success with them, if their words didn't phase me.

[USMCHokie]

Nice guys are often insecure and greatly care about what other people think of them. Certain peoples opinions are more "valuable" than others.

 

This is a very good point. Nice guys often value themselves based on how others view them, so they do everything in their power to please others in hopes that those people will think more highly of them. Meanwhile, they forget to please themselves.

 

The problem is when these nice guys apply this theory in the real world, women do not react favorably to this approach, and the nice guys are left wondering what the hell they did wrong. They will either get "nicer" (and continue to fail at dating) or give up on women altogether and blame the entire gender for the dating difficulties of "nice guys"...

Edited September 22, 2010 by USMCHokie

[that girl]

I've known lots of nice guys who did quite well with the ladies.

 

Being a "nice guy" isn't ever the real issue.

 

There are two possibilities for guys whose supposed problem is being a nice guy:

 

Type 1- They are the type who tend to get hung up on a girl who isn't interested and can't move on. They don't ask girls out right away or even if they do and girl says no, they mentally hang on to her, hoping to change her mind. A girl changing her mind after she's said no is fairly rare, I can only think of a handful of people who I know that has happened to and in every case the guy had actually mentally moved on months before she changed her mind. Sometimes these guys let in make them bitter type 2 guys rather than recognizing chemistry is mysterious and moving on.

 

Type 2- They're just insecure jerks. They'll go on and on about what nice guys they are and how women don't like them because they're such great guys, but really that isn't the reason. They're not very nice people and women notice this. Some complete bastards manage to get laid, but it isn't because women like bastards, it is either because the bastard is crazy hot or he manages to pick his prey well.

 

IME, a clear path to attraction is to not care (intrinsically) about a woman's 'stuff' but rather about one's own stuff, as well as to show blatant sexual desire. Along with these aspects is not caring about her emotional responses. Ignore them in any meaningful way, but do give lip service to their expression. IOW, verbalize care (eg 'I see, sorry to hear that' or 'cool, that's great', etc) but do not feel care. She needs to earn that privilege by her clear and consistent words and actions. Don't provide any more care or interest than she earns.

I can always count on the men of love shack for psycho advice! No one should be constantly searching for approval, but normal people care if someone they like has had a crappy day. Empathy is part of having a relationship and I give it freely to people I have a social connection to. Sure, there are people I don't like and they don't get quite as much of my empathy, but I don't expect anyone to "earn" my empathy. Because I know what I'm worth, I don't have to constantly keep score.

 

Some women may respond negatively (it may appear) to this. This is a clear indicator that they are incompatible and/or are Hoovers. A compatible woman understands that relationships are built steadily through words and actions of mutual care, respect, and, later, love. They don't expect more than they're willing to give.

And someone might be very giving but not be willing to wait around until they have earned more than lip service.

 

Remember this old fart adage: 'What do you have to offer me to keep me from spending this afternoon with my best friend BBQ'ing and drinking beer?' Think about that. Too many men (I was very guilty of this in my younger years) are willing to jump at even the smallest of female attentions. That's nice guy stuff.

I don't think people should blow off plans because they have a shot at a date, but score keeping like this isn't going to lead to a happy relationship. It isn't all about what the other person is offering. You should genuinely enjoy spending time with them and not be worrying about who is winning.

[carhill]

A couple of days ago I was in class and a girl behind me was talking to some guy about video games. I try to join into the conversation and she rudely says, "I wasn't talking to you."

 

'If I cared, that might matter. So, about that video game.....'

 

 

The clear imperative is to not care whether they hate you, love you, respect you or care about your existence. Do what *you* want to do. Accept that others might not want to include you in their conversations. That's normal. Mature people know how to handle such dynamics without offending with their words. This young lady apparently hasn't received the maturity memo yet. Great information

[carhill]

I can always count on the men of love shack for psycho advice!

Right back atcha, psycho advice giver! LOL

 

BTW, characterizing 'men' as myself as giving 'psycho' advice is considered by myself as a personal attack. Beware of that, and me.

 

Edited to add that I welcome disagreement but characterizing opinion as 'psycho' is disingenuous and inflammatory and largely against the terms of service here. For the OP, this is a great example of how you will interact with women in your life. Get used to it. I married one of these. Fair warning.

Edited September 22, 2010 by carhill

[Sweetie1977]

Nice is not sexy or masculine

 

nice is what my brother is to me

 

Women are sweet and nice men are the stoic hunters

 

When im getting ravaged in the bedroom i dont want nice to pop up in my head i want powerful agressive sweaty unpredictable strongarming

 

:love::love:

[PJKino]

No sane women wouldnt want a "nice guy" The "nice guy" were talking about here is unattratcive physically and cosntantly gets reejcted so instead of looking in the mirror makes comments like hes too nice for women..

 

Iam a nice guy and have been called nice and sweet many times by women and I cant get women..

 

That is not why i cant get women i cant get them because im ugly..Just being nice doesnt make a women automatically attracted to you is what you need to understand..

 

Theres a million "nice" people out there you need to stand out in other ways then just that

[Woggle]

They put getting a woman above their self respect. It's good to treat a woman well but only if they deserve it. Too many men get treated like garbage only to come back for more.

[welikeincrowds]

Edited to add that I welcome disagreement but characterizing opinion as 'psycho' is disingenuous and inflammatory and largely against the terms of service here. For the OP, this is a great example of how you will interact with women in your life. Get used to it. I married one of these. Fair warning.

 

Good lord . For someone who promotes letting it slide off your back, you certainly took that one personally. I didn't read that as a personal attack at all, and she was right: your tactics may have worked for you, and may work for others, but regardless, you advise that one play games with people. It's a meager substitute for integrity, which is what "nice guys" lack in the first place, which causes them to fail in the dating world, if not in other areas of life.

[carhill]

We all have to observe the terms of service of this site, which include proper and respectful behavior. In the real world, I'd handle things a bit differently, and not so pleasantly. I've dealt with enough bullies in the real world to recognize their patter.

 

This is *not* game playing. It's acting as women have acted time immemorial, prioritizing their own needs over those of others until those others have demonstrated their value for more investment. *Some* women (these are the 'nice girls') act as nice guys do, investing more of themselves into others than is healthy or deserved. They reap the same results, often shared here on LS.

 

People who do not have an empathetic emotional setpoint, whether male or female, can never understand what it is like to have that setpoint. It's not in their life experience. If one has such a setpoint, it takes marked cognitive work to bring a healthier balance of one's own needs compared to one's empathy for the needs/wants/desires of others. The process sounds overbearing but is effective.

 

You'll note, if you read any selected sample of my 17,000+ posts, that I don't attack people personally, rather address the topics at hand and, in other posts, will empathize with people who attack myself when they discuss their issues. That's my healthy approach. You're welcomed to approach things as you see fit, within the TOS.

 

Since you've essentially said that I lack integrity, I'll just ignore you from now on. Not much substance from you. Next.

[KraftDinner]

In my experience, guys who go around talking about how they are such nice guys tend to be really quick-tempered if their target women don't immediately return their affections.

 

Men like this are so clueless about what women actually want in a man.

 

And this is huge: most men like this tend to go after women who are wayyy out of their league and seem to have NO idea about this.

[PJKino]

 

And this is huge: most men like this tend to go after women who are wayyy out of their league and seem to have NO idea about this.

 

Fair point but unless your going after models sometimes its not that easy to spot "leagues"

 

Should you go after somebody your not into because you think its your "league" or that you might have a better chance with?

 

Leagues can be subjective for most average people

 

Who goes around thinking shes cute but im a 4 shes a 6 shell never date me.. next..

 

Im a 5 shes a 4 or 5 i might have a shot here..

Edited September 22, 2010 by PJKino

[welikeincrowds]

Since you've essentially said that I lack integrity

 

And so, you do it again. Infer what you will. Not that it's at all relevant, but I have thus far happened to enjoy sampling your "17,000+ posts", and will continue to do so.

 

Regardless, it seems you did not refute the point. "Empathetic emotional setpoint" reads like a euphemism. I feel for these people who have serious problems with giving and boundaries, such that it invades into their mental health, and for such people, therapy (one can only hope this is what you mean by "marked cognitive work") is appropriate.

 

But these are not the same "nice guy" to which the OP refers. The words used were "Unconfident or wimpy." These people are not empathetic. They are fearful. They have goals to which they are too anxious to commit; they compensate for their personal failings by compromising other, important areas of their lives; and when they realize they have committed treason against themselves, some do the most fearful thing, which is to refuse to acknowledge they are their own betrayer, and instead act out against that person, or the entire gender. You must have known men like these. You can find them on this very forum!

 

The irony is that their goals were misguided in the first place. These men are never looking for a true romance. They are looking for a romance they've pictured in their heads, with a symbol of a woman, all to which they feel entitled. And so they fail, naturally; and if, by some fluke, they do "succeed", likely because they found someone quite like them, then the relationship will be a disingenuous agreement between people who are hardly aware of each other. Do you see what I mean now by a lack of integrity? It has everything to do with the argument, carhill, and nothing to do with you, although I do find it charming that you would think so.

[FearandLoathing]

I hate how people call this type of guy the "nice guy" - I guess that started off with one of us women at one point. What he should really be called is the insecure guy, or just the friend if he's not an a**hole.

 

In my experience, this type of guy doesn't get girls because he's too insecure with himself to step up and ask them out. (I'm sure someone will come in here arguing about how they're not insecure but they still don't get girls but I'm not talking about you). Also, I find that they're really not that nice at all - they become bitter and angry and annoying when a girl rejects them. Certainly doesn't sound like a nice guy to me.

 

My boyfriend is a nice guy. He's thoughtful and friendly to everyone he meets, he is not rude or judgmental to people and he genuinely cares for me and what I have to say. He's never had problems with girls, I would say because he's nice. That's why I'm with him - I've been with enough a**holes to realize that a nice guy is a wonderful thing.

[GooseChaser]

I hate how people call this type of guy the "nice guy" - I guess that started off with one of us women at one point. What he should really be called is the insecure guy, or just the friend if he's not an a**hole.

 

In my experience, this type of guy doesn't get girls because he's too insecure with himself to step up and ask them out. (I'm sure someone will come in here arguing about how they're not insecure but they still don't get girls but I'm not talking about you). Also, I find that they're really not that nice at all - they become bitter and angry and annoying when a girl rejects them. Certainly doesn't sound like a nice guy to me.

 

My boyfriend is a nice guy. He's thoughtful and friendly to everyone he meets, he is not rude or judgmental to people and he genuinely cares for me and what I have to say. He's never had problems with girls, I would say because he's nice. That's why I'm with him - I've been with enough a**holes to realize that a nice guy is a wonderful thing.

Good post! That makes a lot of sense!

[Knittress]

I can always count on the men of love shack for psycho advice!

 

::shuffles uncomfortably:: I happen to agree there are a lot of crazy bitter jerks around here who give bad advice and/or automatically launch into attack mode if you happen to be female, but Carhill has never EVER been one of those guys.

[Labster12]

Honestly, I would not take the advice of women seriously because many say they just want a nice guy but end up going off with the jerk.

 

On the other hand, have you ever known a person who went away from the nice guy role and actually became desirable to women?

[carhill]

On the other hand, have you ever known a person who went away from the nice guy role and actually became desirable to women?

I can say IME balancing care with healthy boundaries has improved *attraction* wrt women, and that is for someone who historically has experienced little of such attraction. I doubt the change is due to getting old. The romantic interpersonal equation still turns upon compatibility, but being attractive to a wider range of potentials improves the opportunities for finding compatibility. The upside IME is that the care offered *feels* more genuine and open, and without agenda. Perhaps being married has/had something to do with this and, if so, I can thank my ex for helping me on that journey. This morning, as I prepare to leave Changi airport, I look at and interact with many women and smile at how similar our journeys in life are. It is us (myself for many years) who create the differences. IMO, you're never too old to try something different.

[Labster12]

Well I am different, I am a former mr nice guy because of culture. See in Indian culture you can't hug or kiss a girl, you can't even do it in India because in most places they will jail you for it or society will highly frown upon you for it.

 

Somehow being around jocks and other guys that do well with the ladies has caused me to be who I was meant to be. A guy who goes for it and it has worked out.

 

Again, culture had a lot of say in me being a nice guy at an early age.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Labster12