The Bs and The AP are more different tha you may think.

[xxoo]

Sorry? What is the significant difference you're referring to above? I think I've misread this post.

 

I read it that both BS and AP are the same because they both are (or often are) prepared to continue to love a man who behaves in a disgusting manner - regardless of which party is receiving the poor treatment (both, usually).

 

I was talking about before dday, when there is often a ton of gaslighting. When the OW chooses to be with a man who gives his wife scraps, while giving his "heart" (but I'd argue there is no heart) to the OW.

 

The OW, unlike the BS, has the benefit of knowing the depths of his disgusting behavior, and actively chooses this man under those circumstances. I struggle to understand how such a man who treats his wife so poorly (and tells his OW about it) can be attractive.

[Silly_Girl]

I was talking about before dday, when there is often a ton of gaslighting. When the OW chooses to be with a man who gives his wife scraps, while giving his "heart" (but I'd argue there is no heart) to the OW.

 

The OW, unlike the BS, has the benefit of knowing the depths of his disgusting behavior, and actively chooses this man under those circumstances. I struggle to understand how such a man who treats his wife so poorly (and tells his OW about it) can be attractive.

 

The thing that bothers me about this is that I suspect many MM do NOT tell the OW how poorly they're treating their wife. And I also think some might (for want of a better word) 'brag' that they're showing their wife disdain and putting OW first, when in actual fact the opposite is true.

 

Such a mess.

[donnamaybe]

I have no reason to believe my MM has ever lied to me.

This could easily be considered "blind trust" as well.

[jennie-jennie]

This could easily be considered "blind trust" as well.

 

I don't trust blindly. I trust those who have earned my trust. My MM compared me to walking on a minefield when we first got back in touch. I was so untrusting and expecting to get hurt.

[greengoddess]

I don't trust blindly. I trust those who have earned my trust. My MM compared me to walking on a minefield when we first got back in touch. I was so untrusting and expecting to get hurt.

 

and women who have spent ten plus years in a happy marriage are with men who have EARNED that trust. You are talking about a WIFE. She has years with him as a fmaily and she now trusts him with her life.

[greengoddess]

I don't trust blindly. I trust those who have earned my trust. My MM compared me to walking on a minefield when we first got back in touch. I was so untrusting and expecting to get hurt.

 

as you should have been because you KNEW he was cheater who was hurting his wife and family who trusted him.

[jennie-jennie]

I agree

 

But why is the reaction different from the OW when it is the wife getting fast food, cheap cards, and 3 minute phone calls (all while being lied to and gaslighted)? Why is that somehow understandable, and he is still a good man worthy of your love?

 

Because no matter who a MM (or MW) treats this way, it disgusts me and shows that he/she has no heart

 

That seems to be a significant difference between the BS and the AP.

 

I was talking about before dday, when there is often a ton of gaslighting. When the OW chooses to be with a man who gives his wife scraps, while giving his "heart" (but I'd argue there is no heart) to the OW.

 

The OW, unlike the BS, has the benefit of knowing the depths of his disgusting behavior, and actively chooses this man under those circumstances. I struggle to understand how such a man who treats his wife so poorly (and tells his OW about it) can be attractive.

 

Your posts made me think. I think it is acceptable to the OW, at least to me, because I see that he treats his wife well albeit as a friend/roommate/family not as a romantic partner. Of course I do not want him to have more than one romantic and sexual partner, so I am fine with that.

 

I would rather he told his wife the truth and divorced her, but neither of those actions are within my power. I have tried to make him see that by setting her free she could have a better life, but it has no impact on him. He believes he is doing what is in his family's and his wife's best interest by keeping the family together.

 

It was kind of funny the one time he bought me flowers from the supermarket. "Now you really are my wife!" he said jokingly.

[greengoddess]

Your posts made me think. I think it is acceptable to the OW, at least to me, because I see that he treats his wife well albeit as a friend/roommate/family not as a romantic partner. Of course I do not want him to have more than one romantic and sexual partner, so I am fine with that.

 

I would rather he told his wife the truth and divorced her, but neither of those actions are within my power. I have tried to make him see that by setting her free she could have a better life, but it has no impact on him. He believes he is doing what is in his family's and his wife's best interest by keeping the family together.

 

It was kind of funny the one time he bought me flowers from the supermarket. "Now you really are my wife!" he said jokingly.

 

NO he is selfish and doing what is in HIS best interest. Lying and cheating on his wife is not in her best interest. You give this guy way to much credit for his faulty reasoning and disgusting choices.

[jennie-jennie]

and women who have spent ten plus years in a happy marriage are with men who have EARNED that trust. You are talking about a WIFE. She has years with him as a fmaily and she now trusts him with her life.

 

as you should have been because you KNEW he was cheater who was hurting his wife and family who trusted him.

 

Him cheating on his wife was not the reason. It was my prior life experiences. I have lived a pretty rough life. But that also makes me aware enough to keep my eyes open even with people who have earned my trust.

 

We talked about trust the other day, MM and I. He said his wife can never (after a Dday) get back the trust she once had for him, because he is not who she thinks he is. If their marriage is to continue after a Dday, it has to be different, it has to change, there is something missing in their marriage which he can not do without.

 

I trust my MM to be honest with me even when it hurts. His wife trusts him to live up to the expectations of being a husband. Big mistake.

[Spark1111]

Your posts made me think. I think it is acceptable to the OW, at least to me, because I see that he treats his wife well albeit as a friend/roommate/family not as a romantic partner. Of course I do not want him to have more than one romantic and sexual partner, so I am fine with that.

 

I would rather he told his wife the truth and divorced her, but neither of those actions are within my power. I have tried to make him see that by setting her free she could have a better life, but it has no impact on him. He believes he is doing what is in his family's and his wife's best interest by keeping the family together.

 

It was kind of funny the one time he bought me flowers from the supermarket. "Now you really are my wife!" he said jokingly.

 

This is interesting to me....and while I know every scenario is different....

 

My fWS swears he never said a bad word about me in front of his OW, but he implied plenty: No sex, loved his family, blah, blah, blah.

 

In hindsite, I HAD to reach him on a few occasions, and a few times he was soft-spoken and respectful on the phone.

 

Those were the times he was with her and needed to maintain his "look what a good man I am" facade for her!

 

Generally, he was annoyed, short and aggravated with me.

 

Soooooo....I told him his good guy family personna was totally about winning her over! What woman would respect a man who bad-mouths his wife?

 

Stay respectful of the wife, but imply emotional disconnect, and the OW will take it from there.

 

It elicits sympathy....BIG TIME, IMHO, while allowing to OW to continue her respect of this poor, unhappy MM.

[jennie-jennie]

NO he is selfish and doing what is in HIS best interest. Lying and cheating on his wife is not in her best interest. You give this guy way to much credit for his faulty reasoning and disgusting choices.

 

His reasoning is not the same as mine, but neither is yours. Yet I would take his reasoning in front of yours any day.

 

People see the world differently. I can understand how he thinks even when I don't agree with it.

[donnamaybe]

His wife trusts him to live up to the expectations of being a husband. Big mistake.

Why is THAT a mistake? He is a husband, after all. Oh, wait. It's because she chose HIM as a husband that it's a mistake to have expectations.

 

Gotcha.

[jennie-jennie]

Why is THAT a mistake? He is a husband, after all. Oh, wait. It's because she chose HIM as a husband that it's a mistake to have expectations.

 

Gotcha.

 

I didn't say it was a mistake to have expectations. I said it was a mistake to base their relationship on a trust that he will live up to the expectations. He is human, he is going to fail somewhere, somehow. If it is not allowed in their relationship, he will not be honest with her.

[Owl]

I would rather he told his wife the truth and divorced her, but neither of those actions are within my power. I have tried to make him see that by setting her free she could have a better life, but it has no impact on him. He believes he is doing what is in his family's and his wife's best interest by keeping the family together.

 

 

But jennie...these things are within your power.

 

If you truly believed he should do this, you could flat out INSIST that these things happen as a required part of the continuation of your relationship with him.

 

As so many other OW have been coached to do on this forum...you could indeed require him to make a choice and demonstrate honesty and trustworthiness going forward. You could require his actions to mirror his words.

 

Yet, like all those other OW I mentioned...you're insistent that your situation is different, and refuse to do so.

 

And you'll stay that way until something else forces a change in the situation.

 

But don't sit there and throw up your hands and claim you can do nothing about it. Accept that you do have the power...you just don't care enough to truly excersise it.

[jennie-jennie]

But jennie...these things are within your power.

 

If you truly believed he should do this, you could flat out INSIST that these things happen as a required part of the continuation of your relationship with him.

 

As so many other OW have been coached to do on this forum...you could indeed require him to make a choice and demonstrate honesty and trustworthiness going forward. You could require his actions to mirror his words.

 

Yet, like all those other OW I mentioned...you're insistent that your situation is different, and refuse to do so.

 

And you'll stay that way until something else forces a change in the situation.

 

But don't sit there and throw up your hands and claim you can do nothing about it. Accept that you do have the power...you just don't care enough to truly excersise it.

 

Yawn.

.

[Owl]

Yawn.

.

 

Yeah...I kinda figured it would be shrugged off, but at least I gave it my best effort.

[Summer Breeze]

This is interesting to me....and while I know every scenario is different....

 

My fWS swears he never said a bad word about me in front of his OW, but he implied plenty: No sex, loved his family, blah, blah, blah.

 

In hindsite, I HAD to reach him on a few occasions, and a few times he was soft-spoken and respectful on the phone.

 

Those were the times he was with her and needed to maintain his "look what a good man I am" facade for her!

 

Generally, he was annoyed, short and aggravated with me.

 

Soooooo....I told him his good guy family personna was totally about winning her over! What woman would respect a man who bad-mouths his wife?

 

Stay respectful of the wife, but imply emotional disconnect, and the OW will take it from there.

 

It elicits sympathy....BIG TIME, IMHO, while allowing to OW to continue her respect of this poor, unhappy MM.

 

My exMM never badmouthed his wife, not once. When he spoke to her they were conversations like any couple who had been married 30 years. When I asked questions he would always ask if I was sure I wanted the answer because he wouldn't lie to me to spare my feelings.

 

He showed no disconnect to his wife whatsoever because they were connected as a brother and sister would be. He'd have a laugh with her about something their child had said or done and he'd talk about plans they might have for the next week. She and I had several conversations, multiple ddays will do that for you. She tried to hang him for this and that and I recounted a few calls and such. Rightfully she was ticked off that he was sharing personal details of their life but she was also shocked he was himself and his behavior didn't change dramatically. Sex was their downfall-he loved it and was bloody good at it and she would lay back and think of England. When he sought it that was the reason. When we were to the point of the A happening it blew us away because all of that sexual intimacy and bonding was something he shared with me and not her. I hope they have it now but I quite doubt it.

 

I regress. The point is his personna didn't change. Some parts changed and developed around our relationship but he didn't put on any airs and graces to prove to me he was something he wasn't.

[greengoddess]

Yawn.

.

 

Yup you don't want to hear it. You are fine with the situation being with a man for 5 years with no forward motion who lies and cheats on his family daily. I don't know why you always try to profess differently.

[xxoo]

Your posts made me think. I think it is acceptable to the OW, at least to me, because I see that he treats his wife well albeit as a friend/roommate/family not as a romantic partner.

 

jennie, this rationalization reminds me of the infamous Marion Barry, former mayor of Washington DC, who, in 1989, explained that his city had a very low crime rate if you disregarded the murders (which were horrifyingly high).

 

Not surprisingly, few citizens of Washington DC were comforted.

[jennie-jennie]

This is interesting to me....and while I know every scenario is different....

 

My fWS swears he never said a bad word about me in front of his OW, but he implied plenty: No sex, loved his family, blah, blah, blah.

 

In hindsite, I HAD to reach him on a few occasions, and a few times he was soft-spoken and respectful on the phone.

 

Those were the times he was with her and needed to maintain his "look what a good man I am" facade for her!

 

Generally, he was annoyed, short and aggravated with me.

 

Soooooo....I told him his good guy family personna was totally about winning her over! What woman would respect a man who bad-mouths his wife?

 

Stay respectful of the wife, but imply emotional disconnect, and the OW will take it from there.

 

It elicits sympathy....BIG TIME, IMHO, while allowing to OW to continue her respect of this poor, unhappy MM.

 

It doesn't matter what the WS does, it is always wrong.

 

Anyway, my MM is a very gentle and kind man, slow to anger. He treats the whole world with courtesy and respect. Why would he treat his wife any different?

[jennie-jennie]

Yeah...I kinda figured it would be shrugged off, but at least I gave it my best effort.

 

Smile. We just have too different perspectives for me to have the energy to engage in a discussion with you once again, Owl.

 

I will comment on you perceiving me as thinking my situation is different. If you read my posts on here, you will see that I am adamant about stating that my situation is the typical long term extramarital relationship. Nothing different about it.

[thomasb]

I've been having a bit of trouble understanding the 'heartless' comments. I feel that the day I sat my wife down at the kitchen table and confessed what had been going on was the first step up kinda thing I'd done for any of us in monthes. Coming clean to her was stepping up and being a man not a coward.

[xxoo]

It doesn't matter what the WS does, it is always wrong.

 

Anyway, my MM is a very gentle and kind man, slow to anger. He treats the whole world with courtesy and respect. Why would he treat his wife any different?

 

I don't know why. But I know that he does. He betrays her, lies to her, gaslights her. He denies her the truth so that she can take make informed choices for herself. How politely he speaks while he does these things makes little difference.

[xxoo]

I've been having a bit of trouble understanding the 'heartless' comments. I feel that the day I sat my wife down at the kitchen table and confessed what had been going on was the first step up kinda thing I'd done for any of us in monthes. Coming clean to her was stepping up and being a man not a coward.

 

thomasb, having an affair was heartless...to both your wife (even though you treated her well in her presence, you betrayed her behind her back). In your case, it was particularly heartless to your OW, as well, as you didn't care for her much and appear to have been using her.

 

If you are back on track, you are now acting with heart. But, yes, I agree with the crowd that your actions during your affair were heartless all around.

[Owl]

Smile. We just have too different perspectives for me to have the energy to engage in a discussion with you once again, Owl.

 

I will comment on you perceiving me as thinking my situation is different. If you read my posts on here, you will see that I am adamant about stating that my situation is the typical long term extramarital relationship. Nothing different about it.

 

On the contrary...your belief that your situation is different is centered in the belief that it will eventually end in your favor is some fashion.

 

You still hold to the belief that he is making some kind of forward progress towards you, no matter how slow that might seem to others.

 

Whereas others who have also been in long-term affairs normally recognize by now that he's content where he's at...

 

You still cling to the hope that he's going to leave her someday and be with you...even though years of experience by now should have shown you otherwise.

 

You hope that YOUR long term affair will turn out differently than all the others...and that's what I meant by believing that your situation is different.

 

But regardless...I'm off on a tangent, and this thread probably should get back on topic if at all possible.