Was She Evil?

[BiAxident]

So, I've pieced together the details of my recent breakup, and I want to poll the folks of the dating forum on the "dating ethics" of the situation I was subjected to.

 

Before my GF and I began dating, she had set up an account on an internet dating site. After one month of searching through guys, she finally decided on dating me. When she made that decision, she e-mail all the guys she had been chatting with and told them she was leaving the site -- but they could write if they wanted to as "friends".

 

Last week, she met up with one of the guys she had been chatting with at a music festival. Just them, hanging out for four days, which is when she fell in love with him and then left me this Monday.

 

So, was it in anyway "alright" for her to sneak behind my back (she told me she was going to the festival the day before she left) to this event to deliberately meet up with a guy who had contacted her on a dating site?

 

What say you, ladies and gentlemen?

http://tinychat.com/myrelationship

[skydiveaddict]

No that's not cool in any fashion, I'm sorry for your loss but it's best you're rid of her sooner than later

[FryFish]

Maybe not evil but she is certainly a bad person. Get checked for STD's.

[BiAxident]

I suppose that, if nothing else, it is good to have gotten it out of the way now. If she wasnt going to leave me for this guy, she would have found someone else eventually?

[phineas]

Yep. Sounds like she just needed another tree branch to swing to.

[NYCmitch25]

Meh, all's fair in love and war.. she flaked out, not cool but you probably saw this coming right ?

[BiAxident]

Yep. Sounds like she just needed another tree branch to swing to.

 

Well, she's always been one of those women who keep a lot of guy friends around. So, her justification for what she did was that she is allowed to have friends. But, to spend time with a guy who contacted you for the sake of dating? That just seems underhanded to me.

 

Though I suppose the only alternative was to wait it out and see if her feelings for me developed. That, she wasn't willing to do.

[FearandLoathing]

Hi BiAxident, I hope you are doing alright

 

You know that I think your ex didn't go about doing this in the right way, and I noticed another thread you posted about her coming to get her stuff. I just want to say that I am glad you got that over with and can now go NC and focus on getting over this and doing well with your law school!

[Philetus]

All I know about your situation is what I read above. This is my take...

 

She'd already come to the conclusion that you guys were done but, like many people, couldn't tell you.

 

She decided on a course of action (to go away with someone else) as a way to force an end to it.

 

I think she cares about you (cares, but doesn't love you) or fears confrontation.

 

I've done this same thing 20 years ago. Hooked up with someone just to force an end to a relationship when I was too chicken **** to look my gf in the eye and tell her it was over.

 

If I'm right, she isn't evil. She took a way out that may be considered less than honourable, but not evil.

 

Still, it doesn't make you feel any better. I'm sorry, dude.

[saiveca]

Unfortunately, this kind of situation happens all the time.

 

Not great but nothing you can do about it.

 

Hope you're doing ok.

[BiAxident]

All the time? Is the world really that sick? I guess this explains why the divorce rate is hovering around 50%?? I would like to think that most women would have put up a boundary and not allowed themselves to get into that sort of situation??

 

http://tinychat.com/myrelationship

[caramel c]

Hey, that is a pretty rotten thing she did. You are better off without her. Not all girls will pull these shenanigans, don't worry.

[Stung]

I met my husband on a dating site years ago, and I still keep in touch as friends with a few of the other men I met on there. Really, just platonic friends. It is possible. That being said, my husband has met them and is now friendly with them too, and I would never meet with any of them--or with anyone else--behind his back and in secret. Yes, I do think that's very unethical. Evil is a bit of a stretch, though .

[Stung]

I'll settle for very unethical. However, the day before she left, I asked how I was supposed to believe that she wasnt just stringing me along until she found a better guy? Her response? "I'm not looking for a better guy".

 

 

She was definitely truth-challenged. IDK if she was trying to make you feel better, just bullsh*tting to keep you in the dark, or felt she was being somewhat genuine there--after all perhaps he was not better just different--but in any case, she was of course obviously in the wrong with her behavior. I think it's not all that uncommon for people to try to have someone lined up to move on to, but it's always a sign of weakness, and hopefully something most people mature out of.

[Stung]

That very well could be. She broke off her last LTR in February, then immediately started casually dating guys after that, then moved to me, and then to this guy. I would think that most people might take some time off to reasses -- unless they were very uncomfortable being alone?

 

 

In my own experience, when I was quite a bit younger (i.e. late teens) I tended to go from one boyfriend to the next...although I never lined another man up while I was still IN a relationship like your gf did as I always viewed that as unethical, I had low self-esteem and my psyche was damaged from my past and I tended to drift to the nearest more-or-less attractive and acceptable interested male, because I needed the validation to feel good about myself. In my case, at least, it was weakness and damage. As I grew older, I grew stronger, and more introspective, and I spent time celibate and alone on purpose to work on myself. By the time I met my husband I was a different person, much wholer, and no longer afraid of being alone. Which meant I was ready to really, truly commit my heart.

 

Just my experience .

[meerkat stew]

C'mon, she didn't decide it was over with OP and then chicken out into a rebound, she's likely had dialogue going with music festival dude (and who knows how many others) the entire time she and OP have been together this go-round.

 

They had sex the first time they got together, which was likely during her family visit and not at the music festival, explaining her ignoring OP during the trip. Most guys are wormy punks with no integrity or self-respect who will literally crawl straight up a woman's ass with all kinds of lies and insincerity. Have seen it thousands of times, we all have. Women's part in this is their absurd levels of vanity, gullibility and hyper-emotionality in believing every favorable thing that comes out of some wormy-boy's mouth.

 

Low quality people, men and women, are built for endless cycles like this, and cause havok in the lives of the normal, mature people they come into contact with socially. I think OP is dealing with this type.

 

I had a unique opportunity to witness this very same thing when cheated on back in 2007, as the woman I was dating fessed up to lots of detail when she was caught. The guy in question literally mounted a six month campaign to win my GF away from me, despite knowing she had a BF. Flowers, constant Emailing/texting, blowing up her already vain ego... six...whole...months until she gave in. Don't know what is more pathetic, that he had so little self-respect as to do that or that my exGF ate it up and allowed it to happen.

 

Suspect that OP's ex and these other dudes she has met online are involved in the same dynamic. The world is full of these little weasels who just don't give up once they fixate on a woman, married, single, involved, they don't care. Rather than going out and finding an available woman they could have in a week of effort, they get set on one, usually taken, woman for months or years and pull out all the stops. Weak and pathetic. They usually look like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy metrosexuals also, almost never masculine looking men :lmao:

 

Guys, ALWAYS assume these types are floating around in the background when dating a desirable woman, hell even an average woman, because they always are. She won't tell you, but they are there nonetheless, and her vanity and insecurities will allow her to rationalize her keeping them around on the backburner completely behind your back. Sorry for the semi-derail, the "music festival" kind of dredged up some personal baggage and memories of a certain type of guy.

[Fay]

In my own experience, when I was quite a bit younger (i.e. late teens) I tended to go from one boyfriend to the next...although I never lined another man up while I was still IN a relationship like your gf did as I always viewed that as unethical, I had low self-esteem and my psyche was damaged from my past and I tended to drift to the nearest more-or-less attractive and acceptable interested male, because I needed the validation to feel good about myself. In my case, at least, it was weakness and damage. As I grew older, I grew stronger, and more introspective, and I spent time celibate and alone on purpose to work on myself.

 

OMG you just told the story of my life up until age 22. Except that I would decide mentally that I was done with a guy, meet another guy, have us fall in love within 4 days, and leave guy 1 for guy 2. So if the decision to ditch comes first, and there's a mere 4-day overlap in relationships, it's not really unethical, is it? LOLOL

 

Hey, that is a pretty rotten thing she did. You are better off without her. Not all girls will pull these shenanigans, don't worry.

 

coughBULLSH|Tcough

 

There's an old metaphor that goes, "You don't sell your house before you're ready to buy a new one." What is caramel c trying to say? That not all girls will leave you? That makes no sense. Half of them will leave you. You'll leave the other half. And somewhere in there, if you're lucky, you'll find one who will stay with you forever... but not even then, really, because one of you will eventually kick the bucket.

 

Chicks are gonna dump you. That's normal. Just as you'll dump some chicks yourself. It's the facts of life, and I don't think that Wandering Wanda did anything particularly heinous. People are dishonest because it suits them because most people are selfish, and that's normal. The sooner you stop bitching about the direction of the wind, the better.

 

Screw it. You'll find another. We always do.

[Dante311]

I'm sorry man, but you're better off. Concentrate on you right now. Forget her. She isn't worth it. I promise you eventually what she saw in you... she will not see in him and she will miss you.

 

I can't guarantee that, but it is likely. But don't focus on that. Focus on yourself and bask in positive influences. Gym, tan, laundry baby!

 

ok sorry... but keep your head up!

[Stung]

OMG you just told the story of my life up until age 22. Except that I would decide mentally that I was done with a guy, meet another guy, have us fall in love within 4 days, and leave guy 1 for guy 2. So if the decision to ditch comes first, and there's a mere 4-day overlap in relationships, it's not really unethical, is it? LOLOL

 

 

 

coughBULLSH|Tcough

 

There's an old metaphor that goes, "You don't sell your house before you're ready to buy a new one." What is caramel c trying to say? That not all girls will leave you? That makes no sense. Half of them will leave you. You'll leave the other half. And somewhere in there, if you're lucky, you'll find one who will stay with you forever... but not even then, really, because one of you will eventually kick the bucket.

 

Chicks are gonna dump you. That's normal. Just as you'll dump some chicks yourself. It's the facts of life, and I don't think that Wandering Wanda did anything particularly heinous. People are dishonest because it suits them because most people are selfish, and that's normal. The sooner you stop bitching about the direction of the wind, the better.

 

Screw it. You'll find another. We always do.

 

Yes, it is unethical, and it's weak. If you decide mentally you're done with someone, it's ethical to let them know and treat them with some respect, rather than to deceive, manipulate and betray them, even if it's 'only' for four days.

 

What Caramel C was trying to say was that not all girls will deceive, manipulate and betray him. Of course some girls will probably break up with him in the future, in this world everybody gets their heart broken and in turn breaks a few hearts. 99% of relationships don't work out for some reason or other, that's not the same thing as 99% of relationships end because people cheat and lie and betray each other.

 

While it's true that most people are selfish to some degree, because it is human nature to pursue self-interest, and that everybody is dishonest to some degree as our culture thrives on white lies and hardly anyone is psychologically equipped to be 100% unflinchingly honest with themselves at all times, that doesn't mean that the OP can't reasonably search for a woman who won't lie to him egregiously, interview lovers behind his back and conduct unethical exit affairs. I know plenty of people who consider that behavior childish, immoral and beneath them, and it's a bit sad that you don't. I hope you find a better circle of people to surround yourself with someday.

[Simon Attwood]

.. and another thing all together to tell me that she is contemplating marrying me the day before she leaves.

 

I would like to think that is abnormally cruel for a person to do?

 

Modern society has drummed in to us the concept that we are responsible for our behaviour. Psychological and neuroscientific research has cast doubts over this to some extent. We have an area of the brain, the anterior cyngulate, orbitofrontal cortex, etc. that is responsible for behavioural and emotional regulation. If this area is undeveloped, or the connections are broken, or in the case of brain injuries, damaged. Then the ability to regulate behavioural impulses can be radically impaired, or in some cases, almost completely lacking. It is particularly the anterior cingulate that has the power to control or override impulses from the amygdala and to counteract the release of cortisol in to the blood stream that stimulates the amygdala. If the systems that control the amygdala are deficient, then you have a person that can have a tendency towards a lack of being able to handle stress, or a person that perhaps seems a little bit more impulsive, capricious or likely to make dysfunctional choices, and in extreme cases a person can become very destructive to others and themselves at times of heightened anxiety. The amygdala is essentially out of control.

 

I don't think she is evil, I just think she is lacking somewhat in the development of the connections in her brain that regulate emotion and behaviour. But then, many would call a psychopath evil, even though, in much the same way, their total lack of empathy and flat emotions can be traced back again to a lack of these connections that regulate impulses from the amygdala.

[lofi_tokyo]

While I appreciate your perspective, we'll agree to disagree on this one. It is one thing to have anothe relationship already set up before leaving me -- and another thing all together to tell me that she is contemplating marrying me the day before she leaves.

 

I would like to think that is abnormally cruel for a person to do?

 

A lot of people do this, actually. It's not entirely abnormal. Is it cruel? Yes in a way - because it stings so much to have felt deceived. But I mean, she could have done a lot worse.

 

When going through the motions of grieving a relationship, one of the stages is anger. It sounds like you're going through that stage OP. Is your ex really "evil"? No I certainly don't think so. If anything, take this break up as a good thing - its a sign she wasn't the girl for you, and now you can start moving towards finding the right girl.

 

Good luck.

[meerkat stew]

Modern society has drummed in to us the concept that we are responsible for our behaviour. Psychological and neuroscientific research has cast doubts over this to some extent. We have an area of the brain, the anterior cyngulate, orbitofrontal cortex, etc. that is responsible for behavioural and emotional regulation. If this area is undeveloped, or the connections are broken, or in the case of brain injuries, damaged. Then the ability to regulate behavioural impulses can be radically impaired, or in some cases, almost completely lacking. It is particularly the anterior cingulate that has the power to control or override impulses from the amygdala and to counteract the release of cortisol in to the blood stream that stimulates the amygdala. If the systems that control the amygdala are deficient, then you have a person that can have a tendency towards a lack of being able to handle stress, or a person that perhaps seems a little bit more impulsive, capricious or likely to make dysfunctional choices, and in extreme cases a person can become very destructive to others and themselves at times of heightened anxiety. The amygdala is essentially out of control.

 

I don't think she is evil, I just think she is lacking somewhat in the development of the connections in her brain that regulate emotion and behaviour. But then, many would call a psychopath evil, even though, in much the same way, their total lack of empathy and flat emotions can be traced back again to a lack of these connections that regulate impulses from the amygdala.

 

Respectfully, couldn't disagree more vehemently with the above. It is part and parcel of the "new behaviorism" and "victimization culture" that has infected our society for the last 30 years.

 

The main "connector" that regulates emotion and behavior in the brain is called the cerebral cortex, the big brain that makes us human and enables our understanding of right from wrong. Millions of people the world over have impulses to do the wrong thing every minute of every day, due to faulty wiring, bad information, appetite, whatever. Most of those people use the power of thought to overcome reptilian instinct, to regulate their behavior through character, making a rational, conscious decision to act or forbear acting in a certain way.

 

We are not mere ships tossed on a sea of unnavigable overwhelming emotion, at least the sane among us aren't. There is a rudder, and other than the criminally insane, there is no reason not to use that rudder to navigate as opposed to thinking of ourselves as being merely tossed about to and fro in life. Recognizing right from wrong, and doing it just isn't all that difficult.

[Fay]

Respectfully, couldn't disagree more vehemently with the above. It is part and parcel of the "new behaviorism" and "victimization culture" that has infected our society for the last 30 years.

 

The main "connector" that regulates emotion and behavior in the brain is called the cerebral cortex, the big brain that makes us human and enables our understanding of right from wrong. Millions of people the world over have impulses to do the wrong thing every minute of every day, due to faulty wiring, bad information, appetite, whatever. Most of those people use the power of thought to overcome reptilian instinct, to regulate their behavior through character, making a rational, conscious decision to act or forbear acting in a certain way.

 

We are not mere ships tossed on a sea of unnavigable overwhelming emotion, at least the sane among us aren't. There is a rudder, and other than the criminally insane, there is no reason not to use that rudder to navigate as opposed to thinking of ourselves as being merely tossed about to and fro in life. Recognizing right from wrong, and doing it just isn't all that difficult.

 

Yes, but put it into perspective. For some people this regulation of impulse with thought may be as difficult as swimming against a 100MPH current. Yeah, we're all capable of thought and of knowing right from wrong, but how easily we can actually bring ourselves to use this knowledge is a whole different question and, I agree with Simon, dependent on the structure of our brains. There is not a clear delineation between sane and insane, good and evil, etc... it's all a continuum that largely depends on biological factors.

 

Of course, it all amounts to the same in the end, as the criminal justice system and even the hangings/lynchings of yesteryear are an unacknowledged eugenics program. People who aren't genetically up to moral snuff are, well, snuffed out of the gene pool. Nothing necessarily wrong with this. Social selection is a form of natural selection.

[Simon Attwood]

 

The main "connector" that regulates emotion and behavior in the brain is called the cerebral cortex, the big brain that makes us human and enables our understanding of right from wrong. Millions of people the world over have impulses to do the wrong thing every minute of every day, due to faulty wiring, bad information, appetite, whatever. Most of those people use the power of thought to overcome reptilian instinct, to regulate their behavior through character, making a rational, conscious decision to act or forbear acting in a certain way.

 

We are not mere ships tossed on a sea of unnavigable overwhelming emotion, at least the sane among us aren't. There is a rudder, and other than the criminally insane, there is no reason not to use that rudder to navigate as opposed to thinking of ourselves as being merely tossed about to and fro in life. Recognizing right from wrong, and doing it just isn't all that difficult.

 

The cerebral cortex is a large part of the brain made up of many smaller parts, the anterior cingulate is but one of them and it lies in the medial prefrontal cortex. Study has determined that the anterior cingulate is the main player in that "rudder" along with the orbitofrontal cortex

 

Then there are the parts played by the hippocampus and the hypothalamus, as it is the hypothalamus that releases cortisol that stimulates the amygdala. one of the hippocampus' rolls is to tell the hypothalamus to stop producing cortisol. If that system is not working properly, the amygdala gets over stimulated, leading to the emotional and behavioural dysfucntions we are discussing. The anterior cingulate loses it's rudder capabilities when faced with an over stimulated amygdala.

[meerkat stew]

Yes, but put it into perspective. For some people this regulation of impulse with thought may be as difficult as swimming against a 100MPH current.

 

Agreed, there are mentally ill people in the world. Some of them have faulty hardware in addition to the social events that have shaped their deficiencies. They need treatment. They are a small minority of the population. For everyone else, knowing right from wrong and doing it just isn't that difficult.

 

There is not a clear delineation between sane and insane,

 

Yes there is, and the burden is on you to demonstrate otherwise in more depth than a conclusory statement. I will rely on DSMIV until you can call its validity into question somehow. Are there border cases? Sure, doesn't matter.

 

good and evil, etc... it's all a continuum that largely depends on biological factors.

 

Yes there is, it's called "the law," for religious practitioners it's called "The Ten Commandments," "The Torah," "The Eighfold Path," "The Koran," "the Analects," or something else, for humanists it's called "The Categorical Imperative," or "Utilitarian Calculus," or something else, for school children in the U.S. it's called "I will get a timeout if I pull Suzy's hair," or "Mommy or Daddy will spank my ass when I get home if I get caught doing that."

 

Most of these codifications of right and wrong derive from common sense, and the grounding principles just aren't that nebulous. The Golden Rule is not a conundrum. Our society is awash in instructions for doing the right thing. Are there sticky, tricky ethical dilemmas? Of course, but that's why we have philosophy departments and courts. None of the above are biological factors btw, but social conditioning.

 

People who aren't genetically up to moral snuff are, well, snuffed out of the gene pool. Nothing necessarily wrong with this. Social selection is a form of natural selection.

 

Ironically this is not the case these days. Disordered, impoverished people have more children due to more compulsive sexual practices and the support of the welfare state. Unplanned, unwanted children from broken homes are more likely to experience trauma which combines with their faulty genetics to produce disorder, and this cycle continues. We are breeding ever larger generations of malfunctioning human beings because they are easily politically manipulated to vote for whatever keeps that check coming on Friday.

 

So while I will agree that the prevalence of disordered personalities in the population at large is increasing, nothing you've said is convincing on the simple fact that for a vast majority of the population, knowing the right thing and doing the right thing just isn't that difficult.

 

Simon states in his first paragraph that modern science may offer evidence that we are not responsible for our actions to a large degree due to faulty wiring in the brain. Biological factors can certainly influence behavior, but the portion of acculturation that gets crammed into the very front of the brain is what rules, not faulty wiring. If we know it's wrong to lie for example, no amount of bad wires not rising to the level of mental illness gets us off the hook for lying. Sorry, unless we are crazy, we are stil responsible for our actions.