Author AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Author Posted August 21, 2010 I am pretty sure you do have pre-conceived beliefs about the role of men and women in society and that is why you are "ambivalent about this". Oh? Tell me more. I really like hearing things about myself I didnt know. This is exciting.
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Slightly off topic jamesum but I hit on women all the time, and I have no idea what amount of money they make. I dont care. Is money really the same as independence?
2sunny Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Is money really the same as independence? absolutely not! two separate things. money does not necessarily make a woman act independent. independent is more of a personality characteristic.
tami-chan Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Oh? Tell me more. I really like hearing things about myself I didnt know. This is exciting. hmmm...let's see, you seem to equate independence with money. I hit on women all the time, and I have no idea what amount of money they make. I dont care. Now we are getting somewhere. Your pre-conceived beliefs or ideas about "independent women" is manifesting ! There has got to be more than this....c'mon...
Feelin Frisky Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I prefer a woman to have her own interests and goals. It is a pain in the tush to have a female counter-part make me the object and engine of her feelings. I have my own goals and interests and I need space and support--that which I'm willing to gladly give--to fulfill my professional and artistic vision. Love and respect are based upon trust and acceptance as well as openness of communication. I don't want my woman to be my property or her to think me her property. When I see strong independence coupled with sincere capacity to love and accept, I'm in total awe. Her independence is therapeutic to me as it will demand me to be maintain my worthyness. I would hope she would want to then earn me too. End result: symbiosis and mutual growth.
that girl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I have heard this many times. Recently tonight, on these very forums. Its a mantra I have heard at times, and I am compelled to ask. Ladies, what exactly do you mean by this? I want to know, we men want to know. Before I give you my thoughts, and I do have many thoughts of my own about it, I want to know. What exactly does that mean? You are independent right, so why do you depend on us? Discuss. Y'all, Average Joe is a troll. He's just looking to rile all the ladies up. His last post was about how terrible American women are while foreign women are so desperate for his attention that they put his toothpaste on the brush for him. My favorite is when he brings up Oprah. Misogynists always have a real issue with Oprah.
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Y'all, Average Joe is a troll. He's just looking to rile all the ladies up. His last post was about how terrible American women are while foreign women are so desperate for his attention that they put his toothpaste on the brush for him. My favorite is when he brings up Oprah. Misogynists always have a real issue with Oprah. Well, maybe, but I don't think this thread really seems adversarial, though. Most of the fellows in here have made good points. I'm not seeing a gender war starting. For instance what carhill and Feelin Frisky both said are excellent points. (Same with many of the women, but that'd be more of a civil gender war if I felt they were warring with gals.) Do misogynists really hate Oprah? I never got the impression feminists love her or that she's some sort of feminist icon. I mean, way too much of that stuff is weepy girly stuff for me. But Oprah builds schools and helps poor kids. So, while I'm not a fan of the show (unless she wants to give me free stuff---Oprah can totally give me free stuff), and generally I thank her for putting her Oprah book club stamp on books to let me know not to read them, I still guess I think she's a cool chick.
Knittress Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I had an interesting experience regarding this issue with another women. I'd say that we're both pretty independent, depending on what you mean by the word. I do my thing but I'm also pretty relationship-focused. I don't make demands and I don't like demands to be placed on me. I'm friendly and sociable, but mostly a loner. I have a history of several peaceful long term relationships. I've done a lot of traveling (mostly by myself) and I do alright for myself, but I've not very ambitious. Other chick - has had no relationships to speak of, is absolutely driven by a desire to get the best scores, the most awards, be the most involved etc - in an endless quest to prove herself. She obsessively tears other people apart who excel in things she's insecure about. She makes it very plain how little she respects women who have interests and goals that differ from hers. Being around her is painful, to be honest. I do believe my ex's passive personality and social anxiety (coupled with my growing desire to expand my world outside of just HIM and his family), strongly influenced his wussbaggy exit strategy. The other girl, snarling about how men can't cope with her 'accomplishments' ... yeah, nobody believes that. We're both 'feminists' and we're both 'independent' but I really don't think you can slap generalizations on these things. I've seen both sides of the coin, myself.
Sabali Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Oh but that is your own personal definition. B*tch3s are B*tch3s no matter if they are independent or not. Just like j3rks are j3rks no matter if they are successful or not. These are not mutually exclusive, though. But I think I understand where you are coming from. It IS a lot easier to be a b*tch, if you can just step on and walk away from someone and it will not make a dent in your life because there is nothing that you need or want from that person-same is true with guys who are j3rks. Again, being a B*tch is not equal to being an "independent woman". Let's face it, the term "independent woman" is a euphemism. The self-proclaimed "independent woman" always speak of a man who is "scared of her." No the man is afraid that he will never be able to pick up his Playstation 3 controller again without being nagged to hell. I much prefer ladies who simply has their $#!t together. They make such great company.
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) Other chick - has had no relationships to speak of, is absolutely driven by a desire to get the best scores, the most awards, be the most involved etc - in an endless quest to prove herself. She obsessively tears other people apart who excel in things she's insecure about. She makes it very plain how little she respects women who have interests and goals that differ from hers. Being around her is painful, to be honest. This is unattractive to me in a man, too. I've met gals like this. They aren't assertive or independent. They're just abrasive and insecure. Edited August 21, 2010 by zengirl
denise_xo Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I have heard this many times. Recently tonight, on these very forums. Its a mantra I have heard at times, and I am compelled to ask. Ladies, what exactly do you mean by this? I want to know, we men want to know. Before I give you my thoughts, and I do have many thoughts of my own about it, I want to know. What exactly does that mean? You are independent right, so why do you depend on us? Discuss. It's not a mantra with me so I'm not sure what's meant by it. I have had a man express hesitation about us because I had a higher income/ more education/ 'better' CV than him. He got over it and we had a good time I am independent and I want my space in a relationship. I want a man who has a life besides me. If your're in a mutually loving relationship, you still depend on each other emotionally, physically, intellectually, or whatever way you create bonds between yourselves.
torranceshipman Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) Nope, I am simply asking, nothing more nothing less, some women say this. Just turn on Oprah. So far, I do not have an answer. I don't think you'll get one - there are so many women in this world that there will be 100 different female opinion of what this means-and many women in this world have never seen Oprah, so couldn't be assumed to agree with the conversations on her show. No point looking for a defining statement really. My 0.2 cents: independence is great in men and women. Edited August 21, 2010 by torranceshipman
Author AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Author Posted August 21, 2010 Y'all, Average Joe is a troll. He's just looking to rile all the ladies up. His last post was about how terrible American women are while foreign women are so desperate for his attention that they put his toothpaste on the brush for him. My favorite is when he brings up Oprah. Misogynists always have a real issue with Oprah. I am not looking to get anyone riled up. If that is the way you feel, thats ok with me just ignore the threads you disagree with. If eveyone agreed with everything all of the time, the world sure would be a boring ass place. Ambivalent was a poor choice of words on my part, I am more indifferent about it. I think the other poster was right, I may not get an answer. So it leaves me wondering why would any woman say that?
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