AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I have heard this many times. Recently tonight, on these very forums. Its a mantra I have heard at times, and I am compelled to ask. Ladies, what exactly do you mean by this? I want to know, we men want to know. Before I give you my thoughts, and I do have many thoughts of my own about it, I want to know. What exactly does that mean? You are independent right, so why do you depend on us? Discuss.
Woggle Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 It is pretty much an excuse misandrists with awful attitudes use when they are challenged or when men are turned off by them.
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) I have heard this many times. Recently tonight, on these very forums. Its a mantra I have heard at times, and I am compelled to ask. Ladies, what exactly do you mean by this? I want to know, we men want to know. Before I give you my thoughts, and I do have many thoughts of my own about it, I want to know. What exactly does that mean? You are independent right, so why do you depend on us? Discuss. Where did you see it? Link? I've never said this, so I don't know what the person means without context. I'm sure it's possible some men fear independent women; some men fear clowns; some men fear rivers. . . I don't know, people fear all sorts of things. My view is all people should be reasonably self-sufficient and independent and yet all people need each other. This seems to be how the world works to me. I might think I'm self-sufficient because I can take care of my own house/needs, make my own money, and basically work within modern society alone, but if everyone else on the planet (male, female, strangers, friends, lovers, etc) disappeared, I'd be pretty SOL. So would anyone. The notion of independence is relative. Edited August 21, 2010 by zengirl
Lorelai Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I've honestly never had any experience that would make me think that was true. The only thing I ever dealt with in a relationship that was even close was a guy I was dating feeling weird that my new job had me making more money than he was. Poor dude was on slavery in the IT industry, so no OT or shift differential.... I was hourly, with a slightly higher hourly wage, but also OT and a 15% shift differential for working nights. But while yeah, he felt weird about it, it was more that he was upset that his job didn't treat him as well as mine did me -- but since we were dating he wasn't about to try to change jobs to come over to my company. We both had the same level of expertise in our fields... I'd just gotten lucky. And it was only discussed the week that I got the job offer.
Author AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Author Posted August 21, 2010 Where did you see it? Link? http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2952873&postcount=27
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 That does not say "Men fear independent women." It says "Independent women scare many men off." This is not simply a matter of semantics; one suggests men, in general, have a phobia. The other, the one actually used, suggests a certain type of girl is more likely to actively scare several men away. It's a bit of hyperbole, maybe, but a very different statement in this context. It was in response to a male poster saying that a female emphasizing (or overemphasizing, as they saw it, but I think that's exaggerating on the circumstance of that thread) her independence was problematic. Said independent female had scared, or repelled if you prefer, him away. I don't think men fear independent women. I think, surely, some men have issues with a woman they view as "too" independent and the line for "too" varies man to man. But I don't understand what you're really asking. Most people want to feel their mate depends on them in some way, male or female, but few people want to feel dependent on from the beginning.
Sabali Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 It is pretty much an excuse misandrists with awful attitudes use when they are challenged or when men are turned off by them. Yep. I actually started a sort of joke that is commonly used with my buddies and males cousins now. Whenever we run into a woman with a bad attitude or personality and no man in her life we call her an "independent woman."
tami-chan Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 So are you saying AJ, that the "fear of independent women" is something that only exist in some women's minds? that there is no truth to it at all? Well, thank goodness for that! Independent women should be admired, the same way independent men are.
Sabali Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 So are you saying AJ, that the "fear of independent women" is something that only exist in some women's minds? that there is no truth to it at all? Well, thank goodness for that! Independent women should be admired, the same way independent men are. Well, there are women who have their $#!t together and, on the other hand, there are "independent women." See above for the definition of the latter. The former are the ones men have no problem with and actually find very attractive.
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Well, there are women who have their $#!t together and, on the other hand, there are "independent women." See above for the definition of the latter. The former are the ones men have no problem with and actually find very attractive. But why call bitches by something I consider a very nice term ("independent women")? Aren't you then perpetuating the idea that there is some phobia? I agree with your analysis of the situation. But with the language--- I find this just as odd as women trying to tell me that when they say "bitch," (Think the famed but dastardly "Men Marry Bitches" series) they just mean a woman who has her **** together. Of course, I assume tone helps in person with yours---and that you're saying it sarcastically.
Author AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Author Posted August 21, 2010 That does not say "Men fear independent women." It says "Independent women scare many men off." This is not simply a matter of semantics; You just made it semantics. Jesus christ women, I told myself I would not repsond to your posts. Do you ever just stfu, step back and take things at face value? It's a bit of hyperbole, maybe, but a very different statement in this context. It was in response to a male poster saying that a female emphasizing (or overemphasizing, as they saw it, but I think that's exaggerating on the circumstance of that thread) her independence was problematic. Said independent female had scared, or repelled if you prefer, him away. No hyperbole about it, I was not referring to this post explicitly. You asked for an example in regards to this forum and I provided it to you, yet you base your argument on the link I provided. I am telling you, I have heard this many, many times outside this fourm. Can you explain to me without any outside reference or context of this forum, you may need to guide yourself by? You are reactionary, any original thoughts there without the aid of someone bouncing stuff off of you? I am asking a question. And I want to know. I don't think men fear independent women. I think, surely, some men have issues with a woman they view as "too" independent and the line for "too" varies man to man. But I don't understand what you're really asking. Most people want to feel their mate depends on them in some way, male or female, but few people want to feel dependent on from the beginning. You are so full of it, you understand exactly what I am asking. You gave a partial answer in that last paragraph, I will give you that.
carhill Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 When *some* men fear they have no other hold on a woman other than her voluntary interdependence, they fear that she has sufficient means and choices to leave him upon a whim, and will, without regard to him, his feelings, or their circumstances in life. He fears impotence. When I read the stories on LS and listen to real women in real life, I see this dynamic in operation. I've also seen how men manipulate women psychologically to cause the women to *perceive* that they are not independent, though, in reality, they are quite so, both in means and choices. It's a different kind of gaslighting, IMO, again rooted in fear. Through manipulation, the fear is projected onto the otherwise independent woman, eroding her self-esteem. This can be a two-way street, but we're discussing independent women here. I personally have met *very* few women whose demeanor and personality are so repugnant that no man wants to f*ck them or have a relationship with them. IME, that's very rare. Most women who are alone long-term are that way by choice. They choose their independence over the steady companionship of a man. Like wealth, independence gives people *freedom* to be who they are. No filters. There it is. IMO, the best relationships are those where independence has *chosen* interdependence, freely and voluntarily, without fear.
tami-chan Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Well, there are women who have their $#!t together and, on the other hand, there are "independent women." See above for the definition of the latter. The former are the ones men have no problem with and actually find very attractive. Oh but that is your own personal definition. B*tch3s are B*tch3s no matter if they are independent or not. Just like j3rks are j3rks no matter if they are successful or not. These are not mutually exclusive, though. But I think I understand where you are coming from. It IS a lot easier to be a b*tch, if you can just step on and walk away from someone and it will not make a dent in your life because there is nothing that you need or want from that person-same is true with guys who are j3rks. Again, being a B*tch is not equal to being an "independent woman".
Author AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Author Posted August 21, 2010 So are you saying AJ, that the "fear of independent women" is something that only exist in some women's minds? that there is no truth to it at all? Well, thank goodness for that! Independent women should be admired, the same way independent men are. Nope, I am simply asking, nothing more nothing less, some women say this. Just turn on Oprah. So far, I do not have an answer.
Distant78 Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Yep. I actually started a sort of joke that is commonly used with my buddies and males cousins now. Whenever we run into a woman with a bad attitude or personality and no man in her life we call her an "independent woman." LOL!! Good one!!! Me and my buddies use a harsher term, but that one was funny.LOL!!! But to be blunt, no matter how many women got their shiit together, how independent or stuck-up they are, they still have their needs.
tami-chan Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Nope, I am simply asking, nothing more nothing less, some women say this. Just turn on Oprah. So far, I do not have an answer. Again, let me respond with a question. When you hear or read women say this, what comes to your mind? Do you agree? or do not agree? Usually, people ask these types of questions because it runs contrary to a pre-conceived belief.
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 You just made it semantics. Jesus christ women, I told myself I would not repsond to your posts. Do you ever just stfu, step back and take things at face value? Because what you mean is unclear due to the semantics in question. No hyperbole about it, I was not referring to this post explicitly. You asked for an example in regards to this forum and I provided it to you, yet you base your argument on the link I provided. I am telling you, I have heard this many, many times outside this fourm. Can you explain to me without any outside reference or context of this forum, you may need to guide yourself by? You are reactionary, any original thoughts there without the aid of someone bouncing stuff off of you? I have original thoughts, but since I don't know what you're actually ASKING, I can't really help you. If you're saying "Are men afraid of independent women?" - as in women who are self-sufficient, have their **** together, and know what they want, my answer would be, "Most of them aren't. A few of them are." If you're asking why those few are, my answer would be "They are insecure about something lacking within." But that does not relate to the link you provided or what you've seen on this forum, so MAY not relate to all these other times you've heard it which prompted the question. Context is key. You are so full of it, you understand exactly what I am asking. You gave a partial answer in that last paragraph, I will give you that. I really don't. The partial answer in the last paragraph was about human nature in general. It goes back to the illusion of independence I noted in my first post. No man or woman is an island, and nobody is actually truly "independent" unless they live in the jungle, hunt and gather for a living, and never see another human being (and even then, they are dependent upon the jungle, the animals and fruits they eat, etc) -- they are just self-sufficient within a society. As such, we also like people to be both dependent and interdependent within human bonds, including romantic relationships. When *some* men fear they have no other hold on a woman other than her voluntary interdependence, they fear that she has sufficient means and choices to leave him upon a whim, and will, without regard to him, his feelings, or their circumstances in life. He fears impotence. . . . . Like wealth, independence gives people *freedom* to be who they are. No filters. There it is. IMO, the best relationships are those where independence has *chosen* interdependence, freely and voluntarily, without fear. I think this is a good analysis. Nope, I am simply asking, nothing more nothing less, some women say this. Just turn on Oprah. So far, I do not have an answer. But an answer to what? There are women and men who say things like this for all different reasons. This is like asking why everyone whose favorite color is blue likes blue. There is no ONE answer.
Author AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Author Posted August 21, 2010 Again, let me respond with a question. When you hear or read women say this, what comes to your mind? Do you agree? or do not agree? Usually, people ask these types of questions because it runs contrary to a pre-conceived belief. Why do you have to answer a question with a question? Thats twice. To induldge you, I am ambivelent about it. I have no preconceive beliefs. Your question has been answered. tami where is my answer? What I am asking, is in the original topic.
jamesum Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 As a guy, I dont think men actually fear the independence of women itself. What they fear is more if the women themselves and people around them think they are less of a man for making less money. Ill be honest, I have always yearned for an intelligent and independent-minded woman as a partner because I admire such women. But I never in the past or will ever in the future make the first move on women who are more successful than me. The reason is not because I dont want my ego hurt but because just like all other men, I grew up being taught that my job and how much money I make matters in the eyes of women and I think everyone agrees that it is true. It may not be the most important but it does matter in determining a man's 'value'. So Im not even gonna try and make a fool out of myself. A guy can look like a CK model but if he only has a barely decent job, few women will be interested in him.
2sunny Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 in many ways i am described as independent... but the reference is used in a endearing term. i am perfectly comfortable by myself or in a group (large or small). i love my life and enjoy every day - if someone i enjoy is by my side - i consider it a bonus! that is the way i love my form of independence! i go where i want, when i want, for as long as i want and with whom i wish to go... it's awesome! if that is independence - what is so wrong with that?
zengirl Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Why do you have to answer a question with a question? Thats twice. To induldge you, I am ambivelent about it. I have no preconceive beliefs. Your question has been answered. tami where is my answer? What I am asking, is in the original topic. Ambivalence suggests many conflicting thoughts, not an absence of thoughts or preconceptions.
tami-chan Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 Why do you have to answer a question with a question? Thats twice. Because I can:p To induldge you, I am ambivelent about it. I have no preconceive beliefs. I am pretty sure you do have pre-conceived beliefs about the role of men and women in society and that is why you are "ambivalent about this". Anyway, here's my take: What do women mean when they say "men fear independent women". I have never said this...so I am guessing they mean that men "fear" women who can take care of themselves, perhaps because they(the men) feel that if a woman does not need a man, then he loses his purpose on this earth. Who wants to feel useless? Nobody. So I guess, they say it as a way to explain why they are still single---not because they have a rotten attitude, but because they are "independent" and thus blame the men! It is a huge disservice to all decent, loving, independent women! Second question: Why do women depend on men if we are so independent? We are social beings. We need each other. We validate each other's existence. Perhaps, you should qualify what you mean by "depend"?
Author AverageJoe Posted August 21, 2010 Author Posted August 21, 2010 Slightly off topic jamesum but I hit on women all the time, and I have no idea what amount of money they make. I dont care.
NancyBotwin Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I do not know any men who would prefer a clingy, needy gal over an independent one. However, my H and I in the beginning had to adjust to me being so independent that I would make decisions without discussing them with him.
You'reasian Posted August 21, 2010 Posted August 21, 2010 I have heard this many times. Recently tonight, on these very forums. Its a mantra I have heard at times, and I am compelled to ask. Ladies, what exactly do you mean by this? I want to know, we men want to know. Before I give you my thoughts, and I do have many thoughts of my own about it, I want to know. What exactly does that mean? You are independent right, so why do you depend on us? Discuss. Dude here. I am not intimidated by an independent woman; but she's gotta be a bad @ss partner.
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