GorillaTheater Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 LOL, yeah, first it was the community parent who advised mom of my transgressions, then mom who removed me from the situation and began discipline, then the inevitable, 'wait until your father gets home'. Oh, not a good day Combine that with a lengthy explanation of why I feel the need to give them a swat, in the end they'd probably opt to be waterboarded instead.
donnamaybe Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 Schools in the US are notw allowed to use corporal punishment either. EOD, if you cannot discern the difference between kicking a child in the stomach like Darren Creekmore did to his little boy Eli, or punching a child in the face, or breaking their arm - and telling a child that his/her consequences would be a swat on the behind if they did this or that - they willfully DID that very "this or that" and got a calm swat on the behind - there is no longer any point in discussing this with you.
Eve Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 Corporal punishment in the home and school is legal in France. This is why I probably have a different view of things. What I find most interesting is Countries where spanking is outlawed are finding that their young people have more mental health problems. Also, I was reading the other day that schools in the UK are experiencing many problems with the children of middle classed parents because of their refusal to discipline their children in the home! No, all in all abuse needs no introduction and the hard line cases mentioned here are abuse proper and should not be classified as spanking at all. Take care, Eve xx
Clep Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 i still dont get why its ok to hit a kid but not an adult. My perceptions say it is because it is not my job to discipline another adult as they are grown and that is not my place. I also wouldn't smack someone else's child even in my care, as I do not have the intimate long term understanding as to how that child would internalize that. I do have that knowledge with my own child.
Clep Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 if disciplining a child physically was banned and made illegal it wouldnt even b a problem would it? Schools in UK arent allowed to smack children or use any corporal punishment at all, come kids are dying every day because some sick adult did this to them, how come we need child protection agencies which are woefully underfunded and understaffed, how come we need child phone lines for kids to use becos of the abuse they get from adults, adults who think their discipline is perfectly acceptable? Society is seriously sick if when have all these measures in place but adults are still allowed to so called discipline their kids physically. If disciplining a child physically was made illegal we would have a pretty big problem on our hands. I have heard many children saying defiantly to their parents "you can't do anything to me" "I don't have to listen to you". There is a reason for that. Where I live it is illegal to abuse your children, not illegal to smack them on the bum, not above the neck or anywhere else. It is not legal to leave a bruise. Social services, the police and the government are all aware of the difference between abuse where I live, and occasional physical reinforcement. As a child I regularly was covered in bruises, shamed, beat (kicked, punched, squeezed, burned, lashed with anything he could find, choked and raped at the hands of an alcoholic rage driven parent. We need child protective services for parents like that. Since my child has been smacked once in his seven years of life I do not consider him to be an abused child nor myself an abuser. If he was smacked even once a month I would not consider him an abused child. Abusive parents use physical force for everything due to their lack of skills in implementing other strategies. They are driven by emotion for the moment, not thought out choices. You seem to not understand the difference between being reactive and responsive with children.
amerikajin Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Corporal punishment in the home and school is legal in France. This is why I probably have a different view of things. What I find most interesting is Countries where spanking is outlawed are finding that their young people have more mental health problems. Also, I was reading the other day that schools in the UK are experiencing many problems with the children of middle classed parents because of their refusal to discipline their children in the home! No, all in all abuse needs no introduction and the hard line cases mentioned here are abuse proper and should not be classified as spanking at all. Take care, Eve xx None of this surprises me. I used to believe that spankings were evil, but I've come to believe that, if used very sparingly, they don't cause harm. I don't know if it's so much the fact that spankings themselves result in behavioral modification; I think it's more the fact that parents who spank are probably the kind of people who insist on getting the upper hand on children. When you take away spankings as an option, it's kinda like a major military power taking away it's nuclear capabilities. When you have that as an option, I think people respect it; when you take it away, people begin to fear you less. Sometimes, children and even adolescents need to fear adults. Not everyone agrees with this, but I don't give a flip.
Dooda Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Schools in the US are notw allowed to use corporal punishment either. EOD, if you cannot discern the difference between kicking a child in the stomach like Darren Creekmore did to his little boy Eli, or punching a child in the face, or breaking their arm - and telling a child that his/her consequences would be a swat on the behind if they did this or that - they willfully DID that very "this or that" and got a calm swat on the behind - there is no longer any point in discussing this with you. Schools in the US are allowed to use corporal punishment. It depends on the state. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=2054460n And to answer your point about the two siblings: your case showed that one sibling was a state trooper, while the other went to prison. I doubt, no matter how different their personalities, that one child could have gone so wrong while the other one so right if they were in fact being treated by the same two people in the same way. It's so easy to blame the child, but not blame the way the parents teach the child.
edgeofdarkness Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 My perceptions say it is because it is not my job to discipline another adult as they are grown and that is not my place. I also wouldn't smack someone else's child even in my care, as I do not have the intimate long term understanding as to how that child would internalize that. I do have that knowledge with my own child. Your perception is wrong, the reason you can do one and not the other is because by law you are guilty of assault if you hit an adult, and not guilty of assault if you hit a child in exactly the same way, i find that utterly screwy, theres more protection for a person who can already defend themselves than there is for a person who is below age and defenceless. Schools in the US are allowed to use corporal punishment. It depends on the state. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=2054460n And to answer your point about the two siblings: your case showed that one sibling was a state trooper, while the other went to prison. I doubt, no matter how different their personalities, that one child could have gone so wrong while the other one so right if they were in fact being treated by the same two people in the same way. It's so easy to blame the child, but not blame the way the parents teach the child. exactly, i smacked him becos I was totally incapable through logic reason and encouragement to discipline him, so I landed him one with the flat of my hand, i guess wee need to measure the speed of the hand, multiplied by the hand span, subtract the diameter of area hit, calculate in the age of the child and mindstate of the adult and youll have the perfect formula for how exactly to hit a child so that its acceptable, humane and not considered assault, anyone done that yet??????????
Eve Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 EOD - Just stck to what you believe and don't spank or abuse any future children. It is good that the choice to spank is recognised in Law so that parents who do not have what are often deep set psychological issues are not ciminalised because of the lack of restraint of some. Think about it, people ARE different and so any position that tries to formulate all human behaviour into one set legal path must be viewed with extreme caution. I would say that it may be wise for you to speak openly with a friend or therapist about the former experiences you have suffered. This may enable a clearer perspective and context because you seem unable to grasp opinions different to that of yourself. In many ways abuse can damage the internal view of many external events and you do sound pretty stuck.. unless you are just like this of course. Read, 'The Batterer As Parent' for greater insight into the seperation in concept many have tried to highlight here. What you speak off is domestic violence and there is a whole lot of difference between domestic violence and spanking. On an intricate level there IS a pathological relation between hatred and fear and so some personalities are best not to raise their hand to try and discipline a child. Basically this is because they have a misguided perception of discipline themselves. I would place the guy I mentioned earlier who I saw being utterly unreasonable towards his child, firmly in this category .... yes, very firmly... Educate yourself and do try to be more aware of the limitations within human behaviour as well as the ideals. I say this because Clep shared something very personal to her here and still you persisted with a line of argument rather than to empathise in any way. Abuse is a form of forceful initiation into the mindset of another. Please be careful that you are not on some level mimicking the person who hurt you. I hope you can break free enough to allow others to be free honey. All the best with things, Take care, Eve xx
edgeofdarkness Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 EOD - Just stck to what you believe and don't spank or abuse any future children. well duh, thats a given It is good that the choice to spank is recognised in Law so that parents who do not have what are often deep set psychological issues are not ciminalised because of the lack of restraint of some. Think about it, people ARE different and so any position that tries to formulate all human behaviour into one set legal path must be viewed with extreme caution.Im not trying to formulate human behaviour im just saying hitting a small defenceless child and calling it discipline is wrong behaviour I would say that it may be wise for you to speak openly with a friend or therapist about the former experiences you have suffered. gimme a break, dont u think i have already done this? I used to be a really destructive person, now i know better This may enable a clearer perspective and context because you seem unable to grasp opinions different to that of yourself. oh believe me i grasp them, i just dont see the logic or accept them, anyone who condmns violence but is ok with hitting their kids is a hypocrite. In many ways abuse can damage the internal view of many external events and you do sound pretty stuck.. unless you are just like this of course.think whatever u want to think, i really dont care, if your the kind of person who hits her kids but then believes its justified but you wouldnt go up to your husband doing the same thing and not hit him becos then of course, youd be guilty of assault then your just as big a hypocrite as anyone else. What you speak off is domestic violence and there is a whole lot of difference between domestic violence and spanking. no its just the force used. you can call it spanking I call it abuse of personal power. On an intricate level there IS a pathological relation between hatred and fear and so some personalities are best not to raise their hand to try and discipline a child. Basically this is because they have a misguided perception of discipline themselves. I would place the guy I mentioned earlier who I saw being utterly unreasonable towards his child, firmly in this category .... yes, very firmly...im sure hed be very happy to know he fits into a category, most abusers obviously are quite happy to be told this, it sets their mind at rest, and gives them reason and at least they can use it as an excuse, oh i'm so sorry, i have a misguided perception of discipline due to my pathological connection between hatred and fear, so thats ok then, how do u excuse the rest of society that doesnt have any excuse but still smacks the child? Educate yourself and do try to be more aware of the limitations within human behaviour as well as the ideals. I say this because Clep shared something very personal to her here and still you persisted with a line of argument rather than to empathise in any way.i' dont think i'm the one who needs educating here. look at what you say. Abuse is a form of forceful initiation into the mindset of another. smacking a child to make them do what u want or to punish them for misbehaving is doing precisely this. when u smack a child it is either to make them comply with your desires, or to correct something u perceive as not ok with u, so what the hell is the smack for, if not to forcefully initiate them into your mindset???????????? Please be careful that you are not on some level mimicking the person who hurt you. trust me if i ever thought i was mimicking her, id kill myself, she's below human. you cant break bones with opinions, can you, I hope you can break free enough to allow others to be free honey. oh u mean to indiscriminately hit kids because they feel its their right privilege and entitlement to do so? dream on 'honey', gandhi said “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” you can add kids into that comment becos they are in exactly the same position, subordinate at the beck and call of others, and under adult control and supervision. ill break free when people stop hitting their kids because they think its somehow ok to do so.
KikiW Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Somehow this thread has devolved in something akin to Dems vs Repubs or Christians vs Pagans. It's obvious that some feel very strongly on either side. Perhaps now would be a good time to recognize that those who feel strongly will not be swayed, and that the more either side pushes the more firmly planted the other's heels dig in. Time to move on?
donnamaybe Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Your perception is wrong Oh, wow. Who is anyone to tell someone else their perception is wrong. ESPECIALLY someone highly educated in the very area she is talking about? Yes, good idea KikiW.
GorillaTheater Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Somehow this thread has devolved in something akin to Dems vs Repubs or Christians vs Pagans. It's obvious that some feel very strongly on either side. Perhaps now would be a good time to recognize that those who feel strongly will not be swayed, and that the more either side pushes the more firmly planted the other's heels dig in. Time to move on? This is pretty much it, and the main reason I generally don't participate in political threads. I make my point and get out, much like I did here. I'm not going to convince anyone to agree with me politically, and I'm not going to swing anyone to my views on spanking. I get paid to argue; I'm not much up to doing it recreationally.
edgeofdarkness Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 ok let me try tthat again, donnamaybe here we go, I said -i still dont get why its ok to hit a kid but not an adult. clep answered My perceptions say it is because it is not my job to discipline another adult as they are grown and that is not my place. i said Your perception is wrong, the reason you can do one and not the other is because by law you are guilty of assault if you hit an adult, and not guilty of assault if you hit a child in exactly the same way, Oh, wow. Who is anyone to tell someone else their perception is wrong. ESPECIALLY someone highly educated in the very area she is talking about? that ius why i told her that her perception is wrong, and someone who is highly educated in this field doesnt make them right, there are priests in positions of authority who abuse kids, there are doctors who get sued for malpractice and all kinds of experts whos own perceptions are flawed and being a highly educated person doesnt always make u right. Like i said, i really hope clem never knew personal abuse as a kid because it really alters your view on things as an adult.
donnamaybe Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 i really hope clem never knew personal abuse as a kid because it really alters your view on things as an adult.This little gem makes it CLEAR that you aren't even reading the posts in this thread.
edgeofdarkness Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 its a long thread, i cant read everything, but it doesnt alter my view.
Eve Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Yes Kiwi.. I can let it die.. ... damn buddhist philosophy Just joking.. it was temptation t'is all Take care all, Eve, the child abuser x4
donnamaybe Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Yes Kiwi.. I can let it die.. ... damn buddhist philosophy Just joking.. it was temptation t'is all Take care all, Eve, the child abuser x4 LMAO!!!! OWN it baby! OWN IT!
GorillaTheater Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 Eve, the child abuser x4 "When you're slapped, you'll take it and like it." - Sam Spade, Maltese Falcon
Eve Posted August 25, 2010 Posted August 25, 2010 (edited) LMAO!!!! OWN it baby! OWN IT! I am just hoping that Tara takes a bite now, what with my consciously poor reference to buddhism because of something EOD said about Ghandi. Of course I think Ghandi was alright... just kidding!! All in all, I do really feel for EOD though. Being abused is ****ed up. I see his or her comments like a cry from a wounded animal and would not intentionally aim to embarrass him or her. I hope he or she finds peace. Although I do not speak about my past, I do understand what it is to overcome abuse. People do some bad **** to kids.. but I still see them as being the ones who are ****ed up, not the act of spanking. No, I do not regret spanking my children. They would have been splattered on my patio if I had not took the ulimate recourse of spanking my eldest on her bare bottom for sneaking around and finding the key for the window locks after I had explained TWICE the importance of listening to Mummy on that one. The other instance remembered was my youngest daughter running off from me into the road.. the child thought she had me utterly under the control of her every move. At that time she had me worried because she had decided (aged 2) that she did not want to eat breakfast, lunch or dinner. Nope, she wanted crisps and other easy foods. I can't even say how worried I was! My Doctor told me it was a battle of wills and under no circumstances must I let her win. On day 9 (during which time I gave her blocks of cheese and raw vegetables) she asked for breakfast. Running out in the road was the final straw for me (at about day 7 of her new life) until I spanked that bum of hers. She did not run out into the road again. Yes, maybe I will be told that I should have done this, this and that instead but her hard headedness was broken... until the next time. Calling people who love and care for their children child abusers, hypocrites etc to me is purely silly but I do reap the benefits of having my babies safe and respectful.. so it probably does not really matter. Respect to you Clep for overcoming and helping others.. :love: Take care, Eve xx Edited August 25, 2010 by Eve
Clep Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 Calling people who love and care for their children child abusers, hypocrites etc to me is purely silly but I do reap the benefits of having my babies safe and respectful.. so it probably does not really matter. Respect to you Clep for overcoming and helping others.. :love: Take care, Eve xx It's easy to sit here on our computers throwing accusations of child abuse, criticize and project lots of ideas of what others should be doing. I wonder if those that are doing so are making a difference in the real world by volunteering at the least, or working in the field. If one really feels that strongly about a subject, getting involved might be an idea. Thanks for your kind words, but no respect needed. Initially it was either do or die emotionally. Later it was a gradual process that now provides me an incredible sense of fulfillment. I'm doing it for children and a better world but it also brings me purpose and a feeling of self worth, and that could just be classed as pure selfishness.
Author BlackLovely Posted August 26, 2010 Author Posted August 26, 2010 I wasn't expecting this to become a mud slinging war of child abuse accusations. EdgeofDarkness, please calm down. I just wanted the honest opinions of parents; so sad that this discussion has led to shouting about disciplining children. Even though I had a violent upbringing, I still maintain the opinion I shared at the start of this thread: Swats on the bottom or the hand are just fine. It's all a question of degree. I'm glad that I can still be logical about this subject, despite my childhood. I also share the sentiment that children have way too much power and that today's parents are much too lax.
edgeofdarkness Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 :laugh: jeesus how u people project, thats ok, project away, your the ones hitting your kids not me, if it lays well on your conscience fine, but i bet the next time u hit yr kids youll think of this thread.
Eve Posted August 26, 2010 Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) Hey Clep, I appreciate the modesty and everything but people such as yourself are beacons for many and this should be applauded wherever and whenever it is found. Yeah, I work in a simular environment to yourself and strongly feel that emotional abuse is like the gateway abuse to other forms of abuse; If it is present within any form of discipline... trouble is afoot... even if the person does not lay a hand on a child. In total, I am used to assessing narratives and the bottom line is that those who do not project their pain onto others have a greater chance of overcoming all manner of challenges and tend to have greater overall restraint when engaged in rearing children. All in all I have enjoyed this topic and feel glad that the OP has yet more clarification around her own beliefs and feels more aware of what she is overcoming. Different types of people come here and I hope EOD finds support from those who are different as well as like himself/herself. Take care, Eve xx Edited August 26, 2010 by Eve
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