Clep Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 Watch out Clep. Some folks, due to a violent upbringing, cannot grasp the difference between assaultive behavior and a calm, controlled spanking. You're about to be labeled and called all sorts of derogatory names. Get ready for the verbal brutalization! I am really not worried about what other's cannot grasp. If people cannot understand the difference between abuse and what I have expressed, I guess they can do some of the same education I did, maybe they will get the picture. It is common for people that are abused to end up being abusive or permissive in their parenting style. I am grateful to be neither. I did years of parenting courses, have a degree in child development and am an educator for the Red Cross child abuse prevention program. Nothing they can really say will upset me. As I always say, their perception does not dictate my reality.
Clep Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 not from me ive already said my piece, people wanna smack their kids they just show themselves to be weaker than their own kids, its ridiculous that somebody less intelligent, less strong, less entitled and so much younger actually has to put up with the fact that adults are also entitled to hit them. so basically u r telling him that he is inferior to u, does not have the same rights and that because u are in power he has to endure yr loss of control, i hope u r ok with that. So how would u feel if he hit you back, would that b ok, 'mom dad u really made me angry just now, so later on i am gonna come and smack you one, but i'm giving u fair warning. Is that ok??' u think, but u cant be sure. Im not gonna resort to name calling but its pretty clear to everyone that as far as im concerned laying one single finger on any other person in order to get them to comply with what u want thru force, not thru reason, is just crazy. ok good luck. He is inferior to me on a parent child level, not on the level of being a human being. What I described is not a loss of control, it is a controlled choice. I find it interesting that there are some that do not understand the dynamics of abuse. It is living in fear, never knowing when your parent is going to go off because of their own inability to control themselves. It is without control, based upon the parents feelings for the moment and without consistency. One minute the child can do something and the next it isn't okay. I know, I lived it. My child is in complete control. He has been smacked once and was taught something, his choices can bring him positive consequences or negative ones. We used to spend lots of time on the negative, talking about how he can handle it in the future, what positive choices look like etc. He was getting something out of lying...lots of attention. Now when he doesn't lie, because he is not receiving the attention he desires, he says how proud he is that he doesn't lie. He comes to me and tells me he feels like lying, but doesn't want a smack, so what else can he do. Learning can now take place.
donnamaybe Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 It is common for people that are abused to end up being abusive or permissive in their parenting style. And too permissive a parent can be a form of abuse as well, leading to MAJOR problems in the future for the child.
Dooda Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 It sounds like you think I'm weak, for not being able to "suck it up and take it." BlackLovely, I'm answering your question about how people get away with it and how parents are "allowed" to do what they want. I was just stating that most kids don't ever THINK it's abuse because they are so used to it, they think it's the 'normal' way of life. They go on in life thinking that the so-called "treatment" they got was what they deserved when they were children, because they were told over and over again that that was the reason why. However, this is not true, and only few kids wake up and realise it's abuse, and these children get 'ostracized' because it's so much easier to dust off a problem then deal with it. That's what I meant, I didn't mean you were weak. You're very strong for having gone through this, as I was.
Clep Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 And too permissive a parent can be a form of abuse as well, leading to MAJOR problems in the future for the child. I work with children and see this all the time, much more than abuse. I see parents begging their children to do as they ask and don't ever allow natural consequences to be their guide. That is as long as the natural consequence isn't to great for the child to bear, such as letting them run out on the street and learn from getting hit by a car.
edgeofdarkness Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 (edited) I am really not worried about what other's cannot grasp. If people cannot understand the difference between abuse and what I have expressed, I guess they can do some of the same education I did, maybe they will get the picture.when u have been the victim of strong physical abuse yeah your right it is kinda hard to understand the difference, explain it to me again, why is laying a hand on another defenceless human being acceptable even if u tell him, and if he hits you in the same way, is this acceptable to you and if not why not???????? I did years of parenting courses, have a degree in child development and am an educator for the Red Cross child abuse prevention program. This doesnt make u better in my eyes, it makes u worse. The fact that u hold a position of training in authority and still feel its ok to hit an inferior (I think you mean subordinate in that case, lets get the phraseology right) would make me question your qualifications. I personally know of several parents whom have never but never laid a finger on their kids, and their kids are shining examples of great people. and look up Monty Roberts, he takes kids on his ranch local authorities have given up on and thrown on the scrapheap, because frankly they are so far off the rails they are jailfodder, and he turns them into fine young upright responsible citizens. if he can do it without laying a single finger on them, what makes you think youre doing better??????? Edited August 23, 2010 by edgeofdarkness
donnamaybe Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 I also know parents who have two boys. I worked with the dad - a probation officer, the most kind man you could imagine. I never met mom - was told she was a wonderful woman by those who knew her. One of their sons is a state trooper. The other, when I moved away, was in prison for his 3rd or 4th felony charge behind meth use - this last go 'round he had robbed cabins of some family friends. SO - all kids are different. Some may do fine without corporal punishment. Others, maybe not. EOD, your posts are indicative of a LOT of anger. There doesn't seem to be any anger behind Clep's methods of discipline, NOR his communication on this thread. I observed a woman NOT lay hand on her daughter, yet deal with her verbally with a LOT of derogatory anger. I felt for the girl. She was doing nothing wrong - in fact was doing everything she could to please her mother, yet it was clear this woman was taking her internal anger out on the poor little thing. As a child I would prefer a calm swat on the butt over an angry tirade any day. In fact, that was my mom's method. First, it was telling us right from wrong. When we chose wrong anyway, we got a swat. It wasn't often, because we knew mom was in charge, no doubt. It wasn't out of fear, though, because I didn't fear THAT sort of corporal punishment. I wasn't in fear of bodily harm. But I can tell you, what that woman in the store was doing to her daughter is going to do MUCH more damage than talking to her respectfully would but giving a swat on the booty when needed. This girl was probably 9 or 10 though - too old for swats on the butt. But you get the point. Or maybe not.
Clep Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 when u have been the victim of strong physical abuse yeah your right it is kinda hard to understand the difference, explain it to me again, why is laying a hand on another defenceless human being acceptable even if u tell him, and if he hits you in the same way, is this acceptable to you and if not why not???????? This doesnt make u better in my eyes, it makes u worse. The fact that u hold a position of training in authority and still feel its ok to hit an inferior (I think you mean subordinate in that case, lets get the phraseology right) would make me question your qualifications. I personally know of several parents whom have never but never laid a finger on their kids, and their kids are shining examples of great people. and look up Monty Roberts, he takes kids on his ranch local authorities have given up on and thrown on the scrapheap, because frankly they are so far off the rails they are jailfodder, and he turns them into fine young upright responsible citizens. if he can do it without laying a single finger on them, what makes you think youre doing better??????? I did explain but you didn't grasp it. I know a few people that hold the same theories you do and I am not here saying you are wrong or right, just different from my views. You can say I am a "worse" person than someone with no training and it really just rolls off my back. I am not here trying to force my views down your throat, just sharing.
carhill Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 My parents used 'corporal punishment' as a means to get my attention when I was overwhelmed with emotions and wasn't responding. In the years prior to adolescence, when that methodology evolved to cognitive discussions, one swat on the bottom got my attention and focused me, even with a good cry from it, and then teaching took place. I never felt anger in my parents, only disappointment and concern. Of course, I didn't like the pain of it, but it was never done to embarrass or shame. If in public, mom would take me out of sight, interrupting what she was doing. People discipline children in different ways and different children respond in their own unique way to discipline. Grounding and timeouts wouldn't work with me because I loved my time alone and could go days without leaving my room if possible. So, different methodologies, like spanking, taking away stuff which was important to me, and, later, having reasoned discussions, were what worked. It was, I assume, achieved by trial and error. I personally can't remember even ten times during my childhood when I was spanked. Taking my Lego blocks or chemistry set away? oh yeah, many, many times
donnamaybe Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 I work with children and see this all the time, much more than abuse. I see parents begging their children to do as they ask and don't ever allow natural consequences to be their guide. That is as long as the natural consequence isn't to great for the child to bear, such as letting them run out on the street and learn from getting hit by a car. Yeah, better to let your kid get squished than give him a swat on the butt for not listening and running out into the street, right? At least you could say, "But he never got a spanking."
Clep Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 I also know parents who have two boys. I worked with the dad - a probation officer, the most kind man you could imagine. I never met mom - was told she was a wonderful woman by those who knew her. One of their sons is a state trooper. The other, when I moved away, was in prison for his 3rd or 4th felony charge behind meth use - this last go 'round he had robbed cabins of some family friends. SO - all kids are different. Some may do fine without corporal punishment. Others, maybe not. EOD, your posts are indicative of a LOT of anger. There doesn't seem to be any anger behind Clep's methods of discipline, NOR his communication on this thread. I observed a woman NOT lay hand on her daughter, yet deal with her verbally with a LOT of derogatory anger. I felt for the girl. She was doing nothing wrong - in fact was doing everything she could to please her mother, yet it was clear this woman was taking her internal anger out on the poor little thing. As a child I would prefer a calm swat on the butt over an angry tirade any day. In fact, that was my mom's method. First, it was telling us right from wrong. When we chose wrong anyway, we got a swat. It wasn't often, because we knew mom was in charge, no doubt. It wasn't out of fear, though, because I didn't fear THAT sort of corporal punishment. I wasn't in fear of bodily harm. But I can tell you, what that woman in the store was doing to her daughter is going to do MUCH more damage than talking to her respectfully would but giving a swat on the booty when needed. This girl was probably 9 or 10 though - too old for swats on the butt. But you get the point. Or maybe not. Pssst...clep is a girl.. I mirror this perspective. My daughter is twenty and never once was she smacked or any of the sort. She responded very well to natural and logical consequences. I used to hold the same views that EOD has when raising her. It is very black and white thinking though in my opinion and quite rigid, not allowing flexibility to respond to what a child is telling you. I remember when my son was in the womb things were much more difficult and it never ended. It took lots for me to finally realize that a smack was a requirement in his case. It was quite hard on me because I always prided myself in the fact that I have the skills to parent and outwit my child. It became clear to me though this wasn't about outwitting my son, but recognizing him for the individual he is and responding appropriately. I agree with what you are saying. My son is not at all fearful of me or his father. Fear comes with abuse, respect comes with balance.
donnamaybe Posted August 23, 2010 Posted August 23, 2010 Pssst...clep is a girl.. Oops! Sorry. I agree with what you are saying. My son is not at all fearful of me or his father. Fear comes with abuse, respect comes with balance. Yep. I never feared my mom or dad, even back then. My sis? That's another story!
Dooda Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 (edited) I also know parents who have two boys. I worked with the dad - a probation officer, the most kind man you could imagine. I never met mom - was told she was a wonderful woman by those who knew her. One of their sons is a state trooper. The other, when I moved away, was in prison for his 3rd or 4th felony charge behind meth use - this last go 'round he had robbed cabins of some family friends. SO - all kids are different. Some may do fine without corporal punishment. Others, maybe not. Donna, sometimes the most abusive parents put on the best faces. You don't know what goes on inside family homes. My parents were the nicest people in the world, ask anyone. But, what went on inside the house was a totally different issue. My mother was emotionally selfish and abusive, and even physically abusive before I grew too big. She would go into rages, and there was nothing you could do to stop her. She would swear, and say things like : "I wish you were never born", "you're a garbage person", etc... My father was another case. I feared my father. When he would go into rages he would beat me, pull my hair (I"m a guy), punch me in my face, kick me, push me to the ground, rip my clothes, break my stuff, swear at me, anything. Everyone on the outside world respected my father and mother and said they were such great people. That itself made me question whether I was right or wrong. How could they be so abusive yet no one sees it. And, the fact was that it was because they were hiding it so well, as abusive families often do. My dad always put on this face: "I'm so troubled, I work so hard", and my mother always had the "polite" face on. Often in the case where you have 2 siblings, one older and one younger, the older one is always the golden boy, the good boy. It was the same thing with me. My brother was a hero, and I was a piece of ****. Anytime there was a conflict between me and him, they would gang up on me, and say I was wrong, I shouldn't have fought with my brother, he's my big brother, I should respect him. He can insult me and beat me because he's my big brother. I failed and had to redo my last year at school, my brother skipped 3 grades. What does that tell you? That I'm a bad person? I was a bad child? Thankfully, I will not be heading down any road of drugs, gangs, any of that stuff. But, you don't know how anyone would act or feel in a family where they have been abused. If I were weaker, I may have given in to becoming an alcoholic, or may have given up on life totally, or become a drug addict, or a drop out. It always astounded me how everyone respected my father, but it had never occurred to me that no one knew what was going on inside the family. It was only after being separated from my family for one year and going to see a psychiatrist that I realized how much I was, and still am, being abused. Edited August 24, 2010 by Dooda
Eve Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 What Clep and Donna said .. but I do feel for those who are hurting from being abused by their parents. Funny, for some reason I always think of 'corporal punishment' as being a definition to be used in school settings. Of course, the definition goes further than this but I do find a 'corporate' view quite telling. For example, if a child is kicked and hit by a Teacher, obviously that is not at all appropriate. If a child is smacked with, I don't know, a ruler on the back of the hand in school or being disruptive, there is a setting and some level of reason behind the act. This is how I see disciplining a child and I have spanked my children a few times below the age of 4. They still actually remember the times! All in all, I look out at what leads up to a situation where a child is being spanked. Thats pretty telling in itself. I just observed a Dad telling off a small child and using threats that the child would have to stay in its room if he didnt do this, that and that. I thought to myself, '**** me, what wrong with him? The child wanted to play and was not even being naughty. He has obvious issues and I bet you when he smacks that child (which to me was obvious) it is about control, not concern or discipline. So, I go with the guidelines that are in place within Child Protection. No hitting that causes marks and no hitting on the face etc. This combined with other tests is enough to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Cultural reasons for smacking are a topic in itself. Take care, Eve xx
donnamaybe Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 Donna, sometimes the most abusive parents put on the best faces. You don't know what goes on inside family homes. My parents were the nicest people in the world, ask anyone. But, what went on inside the house was a totally different issue. My mother was emotionally selfish and abusive, and even physically abusive before I grew too big. She would go into rages, and there was nothing you could do to stop her. She would swear, and say things like : "I wish you were never born", "you're a garbage person", etc...And, as in the case of the mother I observed with that poor little girl in the store, sometimes the words themselves don't even need to be spoken to be felt. Hell, I felt it, and the derision wasn't even aimed at me! The example of the PO with the two boys was just to illustrate you can have two children raised in the same household by the same two people and have COMPLETELY different outcomes.
edgeofdarkness Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 i still dont get why its ok to hit a kid but not an adult.
donnamaybe Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 i still dont get why its ok to hit a kid but not an adult. I can't imagine what would come of someone administering a swat on the behind to some guy acting like a jerk in a bar, rather than popping him on the jaw. I can, however, imagine what would happen if someone chose to punch a child in the jaw rather than a swat on the behind.
carhill Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 i still dont get why its ok to hit a kid but not an adult. When I was a kid, kids hit other kids to inflict pain, to achieve power, or simply due to poor impulse control. Adults do the same thing. It goes on all the time. That's a completely different dynamic, both functionally and emotionally, from an adult disciplining their own child to set boundaries and to educate. Some adults do hit their children, in anger, to inflict pain, because of poor impulse control. IMO, that's wrong and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I don't doubt that many of the children who assaulted me physically as a child had such dynamics in their homes and were acting out in a way which was familiar to them. Effective discipline teaches self-control. If the parents are out of control, why should their kids not be? It's all they know. When assessing different methods of discipline, the common unknown is how it will work; its ultimate effectiveness. If the child grows up to be a balanced adult, their socialization was effective *for them*, whether that be quiet talks, timeouts, privilege suspensions, spankings, groundings, whatever. No one knows ahead of time what's best. We all work with what we've got and do the best we can. Then the cycle repeats, and life goes on.
amerikajin Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 I used to be adamantly opposed to corporal punishment. Although I still consider it to be an inappropriate and unthinking response to a child's unruly behavior, I don't think a swat on the bottom is going to destroy a child's live or scar him/her psychologically. It definitely could if it's carried into excess, but so could a lot of things. I'll put it this way: although I don't have kids of my own, I have a number of nieces and nephews from my older half-siblings. The ones who got the occasional swat on the ass have a better future than the ones who never did. My oldest sibling is sweet and gentle, and she doesn't believe in spankings, and so she and her ex never did. They never tried to assert control over their kids, and now they're both a collective mess. My older half-brother, by contrast, is a no-nonsense intimidating sonofabitch, who has quite often given the swat or the threat of one (usually the latter is enough). I think his kids will turn out just fine. It's as simple as that. Children need to be controlled. Period. Whatever works, provided you're not really hurting your kids.
Slips715 Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 I think it's ok as long as it's in moderation and it's never because the parent is mad and they are taking out aggression. I think that it is solely a punishment for the kid. I also think that each time should be few and far between.
GorillaTheater Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 I swat my kids on occassion, but rarely. I view it as a training device much more so than a punishment, and I make it a rule to never give a swat while angry. If neccessary, I tell them they have to wait for it (which is almost always worse than getting a swat). But like Carhill says, it varies with the kid. Swats work with some but not for others. Since it's about teaching them about consequences, the consequences have to be geared on an individual basis. I have some that would laugh off a swat, and others that the mere thought of a swat is enough to make them think twice about what they're doing.
Dooda Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 And, as in the case of the mother I observed with that poor little girl in the store, sometimes the words themselves don't even need to be spoken to be felt. Hell, I felt it, and the derision wasn't even aimed at me! The example of the PO with the two boys was just to illustrate you can have two children raised in the same household by the same two people and have COMPLETELY different outcomes. But that's because the same two people don't treat the second sibling in the same way.
carhill Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 If necessary, I tell them they have to wait for it (which is almost always worse than getting a swat). LOL, yeah, first it was the community parent who advised mom of my transgressions, then mom who removed me from the situation and began discipline, then the inevitable, 'wait until your father gets home'. Oh, not a good day
donnamaybe Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 But that's because the same two people don't treat the second sibling in the same way. So you are saying that each and every child born to the same set of parents is going to be exactly the same in every single possible way, thus the ONLY way they would turn out differently is because they were treated differently? Sorry - you'll have to sell that somewhere else. I have five sisters. Four of us are brunettes. One is blonde. One is a readhead. One has green eyes, one blue, and the rest brown. Our personality traits are as different as night and day, and it has NOTHING to do with how we were treated. My one VERY difficult sister, for example, was difficult from the time she was a toddler. Hard to get along with, quick to anger, very rigid.
edgeofdarkness Posted August 24, 2010 Posted August 24, 2010 every single person is different to their sibling, apart from identical twins but even then there are discernible traits, look at this thread, you are all discussing the fineline differences between smack, swat, swipe, hit, punch, slap, thwack, and everybody is setting conditions and scenarios of when its ok to hit a kid and when its not, so you see, everybody has a different opinion. if disciplining a child physically was banned and made illegal it wouldnt even b a problem would it? Schools in UK arent allowed to smack children or use any corporal punishment at all, I can't imagine what would come of someone administering a swat on the behind to some guy acting like a jerk in a bar, rather than popping him on the jaw. you would still be guilty of assaulting the guy, because there is no law against acting like a jerk, but there is a law against you laying a hand on him, , whereas doing it to a kid in a mall is apparently quite acceptable. this is wrong somewhere I can, however, imagine what would happen if someone chose to punch a child in the jaw rather than a swat on the behind. can you, then why are more assaults on kids not treated as serious, how come kids are dying every day because some sick adult did this to them, how come we need child protection agencies which are woefully underfunded and understaffed, how come we need child phone lines for kids to use becos of the abuse they get from adults, adults who think their discipline is perfectly acceptable? Society is seriously sick if when have all these measures in place but adults are still allowed to so called discipline their kids physically.
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