*Update* to "No sex?!" thread

[tigressA]

I thought I'd start a different thread about the update I have on my situation. The two of us talked for over 2 hours Monday night and the nub and gist of it is yes, we are exclusive.

 

It took a long time for us to get to that point in the conversation though. Unlike what I said in the other thread, I did not just jump into the exclusivity question. Instead I did exactly what I said I wouldn't do--heavy bush-beating, and asking him if there were "any other reasons" behind him imposing this "no sex" thing before even mentioning exclusivity. I admit posting that thread and seeing the responses made me even more nervous, and I was already nervous enough that I wouldn't end up hearing what I wanted to.

 

When I asked him if he had "other reasons", he immediately went to the heart of my concern: "You mean, am I f*cking other girls? That's what you want to know." I said, "Yeah, well...are you?" He said, "No, I'm not, and I don't want to." I said, "Oh, well, okay. That makes me feel better." He said, "Why does me saying that make you feel better? You do realize that that's just a verbal statement, and I could be nailing others while telling you I'm not and you wouldn't have any idea? See that's where trust comes in. I'm not interested in anyone else, but because you've had me tell you something you don't want to hear (no sex for awhile), you automatically think there must be other motives than the one I've given. You search for things that aren't there, insisting that they are just so you can be satisfied. You only put stock in things that you find pleasing. I'm not sure you even see the world around you much of the time; it's like you're in your own little bubble, fixing things to your liking and ignoring everything else that you can't control."

 

I became really angry at him then, and said, "If I'm so f*cking immature then why do you even bother with me?!" I could tell he got a bit angry too then, because of his tone, and he said, "I never said you were immature, and I do not see you as someone to 'bother with'. If I didn't want to see you anymore, if I didn't want to make time for you anymore, you would know." I said, "Okay. I'm sorry...just so you know, this is my first time doing this, really getting to know someone before establishing a relationship, so don't be surprised if I say/do more things to apologize for in the meantime."

 

He said, "You don't have anything to be sorry about. And why are you so apologetic all the time? You were beyond scared to tell me what you really wanted to say because you presumed that I would react in a way you would've found unfavorable. You can't go on presuming people's reactions to things, censoring yourself and saying/doing things that you presume would make others react favorably to you. That just leads to constant frustration, which I know makes you speculate and obsess. Much like I'm sure you have been with this situation."

 

At that point I really could do nothing but agree. I didn't even grudge him for being right. He was so unbelievably dead-on. I was angry because he'd revealed those things about myself that I find unfavorable and absolutely hate to have acknowledged by myself, let alone anyone else. He also said, later, "Perhaps this situation isn't ideal for you and that's why you're frustrated. I'm a very busy person, there's some distance between us (about an hour, and I don't drive--yet, I'm learning) and I know I can't give as much time to you right now as either of us would like." I said, "No! I like you and I don't want to see anyone else. I just don't want to continue this if we're not exclusive." He said, "Okay, we'll be exclusive. And we'll see where things go." I said, "Okay." And that was that.

 

I have never yet met anyone remotely like this guy. He challenges me more than I thought possible. He asks questions about myself and my motives that I really struggle to answer, and he already knows so much about how I operate. He really, truly wants to know me on a deep level, and he wants me to really know him, and me to know myself more than I do. Sometimes I'm worried about really screwing things up. I came close, I think, several times already--getting a temper unnecessarily, etc. For the first time I feel like I have a real keeper on my hands here. I don't want to drive him away.

Edited July 21, 2010 by tigressA

[northstar1]

This sounds like a lot of drama after only a few dates and honestly the whole "I'm a very busy person" thing comes off as pretentious. Almost sounds like he's playing mindgames to me with the whole "I'm not sure if this situation is ideal for you". Something doesn't seem right to me.

 

But good luck, I hope it works out. Try and relax and enjoy it okay?

[Allisha]

I thought I'd start a different thread about the update I have on my situation. The two of us talked for over 2 hours Monday night and the nub and gist of it is yes, we are exclusive.

 

It took a long time for us to get to that point in the conversation though. Unlike what I said in the other thread, I did not just jump into the exclusivity question. Instead I did exactly what I said I wouldn't do--heavy bush-beating, and asking him if there were "any other reasons" behind him imposing this "no sex" thing before even mentioning exclusivity. I admit posting that thread and seeing the responses made me even more nervous, and I was already nervous enough that I wouldn't end up hearing what I wanted to.

 

When I asked him if he had "other reasons", he immediately went to the heart of my concern: "You mean, am I f*cking other girls? That's what you want to know." I said, "Yeah, well...are you?" He said, "No, I'm not, and I don't want to." I said, "Oh, well, okay. That makes me feel better." He said, "Why does me saying that make you feel better? You do realize that that's just a verbal statement, and I could be nailing others while telling you I'm not and you wouldn't have any idea? See that's where trust comes in. I'm not interested in anyone else, but because you've had me tell you something you don't want to hear (no sex for awhile), you automatically think there must be other motives than the one I've given. You search for things that aren't there, insisting that they are just so you can be satisfied. You only put stock in things that you find pleasing. I'm not sure you even see the world around you much of the time; it's like you're in your own little bubble, fixing things to your liking and ignoring everything else that you can't control."

 

I became really angry at him then, and said, "If I'm so f*cking immature then why do you even bother with me?!" I could tell he got a bit angry too then, because of his tone, and he said, "I never said you were immature, and I do not see you as someone to 'bother with'. If I didn't want to see you anymore, if I didn't want to make time for you anymore, you would know." I said, "Okay. I'm sorry...just so you know, this is my first time doing this, really getting to know someone before establishing a relationship, so don't be surprised if I say/do more things to apologize for in the meantime."

 

He said, "You don't have anything to be sorry about. And why are you so apologetic all the time? You were beyond scared to tell me what you really wanted to say because you presumed that I would react in a way you would've found unfavorable. You can't go on presuming people's reactions to things, censoring yourself and saying/doing things that you presume would make others react favorably to you. That just leads to constant frustration, which I know makes you speculate and obsess. Much like I'm sure you have been with this situation."

 

At that point I really could do nothing but agree. I didn't even grudge him for being right. He was so unbelievably dead-on. I was angry because he'd revealed those things about myself that I find unfavorable and absolutely hate to have acknowledged by myself, let alone anyone else. He also said, later, "Perhaps this situation isn't ideal for you and that's why you're frustrated. I'm a very busy person, there's some distance between us (about an hour, and I don't drive--yet, I'm learning) and I know I can't give as much time to you right now as either of us would like." I said, "No! I like you and I don't want to see anyone else. I just don't want to continue this if we're not exclusive." He said, "Okay, we'll be exclusive. And we'll see where things go." I said, "Okay." And that was that.

 

I have never yet met anyone remotely like this guy. He challenges me more than I thought possible. He asks questions about myself and my motives that I really struggle to answer, and he already knows so much about how I operate. He really, truly wants to know me on a deep level, and he wants me to really know him, and me to know myself more than I do. Sometimes I'm worried about really screwing things up. I came close, I think, several times already--getting a temper unnecessarily, etc. For the first time I feel like I have a real keeper on my hands here. I don't want to drive him away.

 

Hey.

 

So I read your other thread and I'm glad this has worked out the way it has - he sounds like a keeper!

 

Regarding the bit I've highlighted, I really want you to take something from that, even if it doesn't work out with this guy in the long run. I think you've learnt a valuable lesson about yourself, and about other people, too. Not everyone has a hidden agenda.

 

I really wish you all the best. He sounds like a great guy, just don't let quick temper tantrums ruin your chances!

[tigressA]

This sounds like a lot of drama after only a few dates and honestly the whole "I'm a very busy person" thing comes off as pretentious. Almost sounds like he's playing mindgames to me with the whole "I'm not sure if this situation is ideal for you". Something doesn't seem right to me.

 

But good luck, I hope it works out. Try and relax and enjoy it okay?

 

It really didn't come off that way to me. I mean, he didn't have to say that--I know that he is, but he's straightforward. Just says whatever goes into his head. I'm learning to just take it at face value and not over-interpret.

 

He is right in that the situation isn't ideal for me. Exactly right. I do like him; of course I wish we could have more time together than we get, but at the same time, because I like him I'm willing to wait it out and see where things go. It was pretty clear that's what he wanted to hear from me.

[Allisha]

This sounds like a lot of drama after only a few dates and honestly the whole "I'm a very busy person" thing comes off as pretentious. Almost sounds like he's playing mindgames to me with the whole "I'm not sure if this situation is ideal for you". Something doesn't seem right to me.

 

But good luck, I hope it works out. Try and relax and enjoy it okay?

 

It's all about the way in which it was said. and I don't get it? How can knowing your busy be pretentious?

She told him she doesn't want to date him if they weren't exclusive, therefore laying out her boundaries and "conditions" if you will. I think he was just doing the same by telling her he can't dedicate all his time to her, especially since he's busy & there's some distance involved. He seems to understand women quite well and I know for a fact there are a lot of women who would find their arrangement difficult to deal with.

 

The way I see it, is, he was informing her of what he can offer her, and if she isn't happy with it (see the "i know this situation isn't ideal for you" bit), then they can just leave it there.

 

Maybe I'm talking rubbish, though.

[threebyfate]

The reason he understands you is because he's much like you tigress, controlling what he can (you through no-sex) and ignoring what he can't (he knew right away what this was all about which means it was a consideration, one he refused to talk about when you challenged him on the no-sex thing). That he won't admit it and put it all on you, causes me some concern. I would consider this a low-level yellow flag. Something to keep your eyes and ears open for patterns of similar behaviour but not a deal-breaker.

[tigressA]

You're not talking rubbish Allisha; you've got it exactly right. This is exactly how it came off. Not pretentious at all.

[carhill]

Something here strikes me as out of proportion to the circumstances. I can't put my finger on it yet, but will re-visit later. There's something about the man's style which sounds familiar.

 

I'd suggest you PM 2sure and/or a couple of the BS's from the infidelity forum and have them take a peek. Maybe it's nothing.

 

I like him I'm willing to wait it out and see where things go.

 

OK, keep us posted.

[northstar1]

The reason he understands you is because he's much like you tigress, controlling what he can (you through no-sex) and ignoring what he can't (he knew right away what this was all about which means it was a consideration, one he refused to talk about when you challenged him on the no-sex thing). That he won't admit it and put it all on you, causes me some concern. I would consider this a low-level yellow flag. Something to keep your eyes and ears open for patterns of similar behaviour but not a deal-breaker.

 

This is pretty much what I was thinking, but much less succinctly than TBF put it.

 

I see undercurrents of control in his behaviour and his dialogue. Might be nothing, but something to def watch out for.

[Allisha]

The reason he understands you is because he's much like you tigress, controlling what he can (you through no-sex) and ignoring what he can't (he knew right away what this was all about which means it was a consideration, one he refused to talk about when you challenged him on the no-sex thing). That he won't admit it and put it all on you, causes me some concern. I would consider this a low-level yellow flag. Something to keep your eyes and ears open for patterns of similar behaviour but not a deal-breaker.

 

This is pretty much what I was thinking, but much less succinctly than TBF put it.

 

I see undercurrents of control in his behaviour and his dialogue. Might be nothing, but something to def watch out for.

 

Okay, I can kind of see where these two are coming from and I'd give you the same advice I'd give to anyone entering a new relationship; be wary, take it slow, relax and enjoy

[carhill]

OP, so I'm up to speed, you *did* have sex with this guy a few times, early on, correct?

 

Question, and I want you to consider this carefully..... If you hadn't had sex with him, would your perspective about his current words be the same or different? Why? Obviously, you'll need to postulate based on your life experiences. I want to understand *your* perspective better. Would you accept, apparently wishing to continue for now regardless, such words from him as shared in this thread if you hadn't had any sort of sexual intimacy with him? Why?

 

I would tend to align with the 'relax, go with the flow, have fun' path; however, if that was what you were doing, this thread wouldn't be here. You can always reconsider (the thread).

[TaurusTerp]

This guy sounds ****ing awesome. I wish I could articulate my OWN feelings that well.

[tigressA]

I just remembered something that happened during the conversation that helps flesh this out. The whole thing was long and drawn-out, so I'm sure there could be equally important things that I forgot to put into my original post.

 

I had challenged him on the "no sex" thing during the conversation, saying "What's the point of going backward like this?" and he did readily acknowledge that while he'd given in to his physical desire for me, he had been uncomfortable sleeping with me from the beginning and on every date we'd had so far because he normally doesn't do that. He said he was also concerned about the precedent it had set, and he basically wanted to try and reset it, which is what I had wondered about in the previous thread--trying on my way of doing things, deciding he was uncomfortable with that and wanting to go back to his way of doing things, but without acknowledging my perspective at the time. He said, "Having sex, especially so early like we have, complicates things. It's likely that if we hadn't done so yet we wouldn't even be having this conversation." I said, "Yeah, but it happened. We can't just act like it hasn't." He acknowledged that I had a point there and said that we'll see what happens, that there's no pressure either way--he's not going to enforce abstinence.

 

I forgot about this amidst all the "Are we exclusive?!" stuff. That just became more important to me.

Edited July 21, 2010 by tigressA

[carhill]

OK, so he's 'uncomfortable' with the having of sex, but 'gave in to his desires' and 'we'll see what happens' and he's 'not going to enforce abstinence'.

 

Wow, I really need to work on this sharing of 'feelings' stuff. I can see I've been going about it all wrong. This is what women really desire. Thanks. Good luck

[threebyfate]

This guy's good. Pay attention tigress. Sit up, ears perked.

 

The best defense is a strong offense.

[tigressA]

OK, so he's 'uncomfortable' with the having of sex, but 'gave in to his desires' and 'we'll see what happens' and he's 'not going to enforce abstinence'.

 

Wow, I really need to work on this sharing of 'feelings' stuff. I can see I've been going about it all wrong. This is what women really desire. Thanks. Good luck

 

It was all I really wanted to know, strictly in regard to that issue. I just knew that his reasoning behind putting a hold on sex couldn't be entirely about me. And he admitted it readily once I challenged him.

 

With regard to your prior post, carhill: I need some time to consider it, and I'll PM you with my response.

[tigressA]

This guy's good. Pay attention tigress. Sit up, ears perked.

 

The best defense is a strong offense.

 

This just made me feel kinda creeped, TBF. Could you elaborate a bit more?

[shadowplay]

am I the only one who feels like there's something off about this guy's manner? His analysis of Tigress struck me as condescending and a tad manipulative/slimy. It's like he's trying to control her and diffuse any legitimate concerns she may have by playing therapist and pretending he can read her mind. Maybe I'm just cynical.

[threebyfate]

This just made me feel kinda creeped, TBF. Could you elaborate a bit more?

He's taken complete control of the situation by using a strong offense. Even when he "opened up to you" about the no sex deal, he's still in full control of the situation.

 

Not once has he considered your feelings in his unilateral decision making. While he communicates his concerns and feelings AT you, your feelings aren't part of the equation.

 

My take on this would be that the flag is now amber instead of pale yellow.

[Allisha]

The reason he understands you is because he's much like you tigress, controlling what he can (you through no-sex) and ignoring what he can't (he knew right away what this was all about which means it was a consideration, one he refused to talk about when you challenged him on the no-sex thing). That he won't admit it and put it all on you, causes me some concern. I would consider this a low-level yellow flag. Something to keep your eyes and ears open for patterns of similar behaviour but not a deal-breaker.

 

This guy's good. Pay attention tigress. Sit up, ears perked.

 

The best defense is a strong offense.

 

I think TBF means this guy is extremely intelligent and can manipulate you easily as he's very good with words, is good at avoiding certain things by turning it back onto you, and can come up with good excuses that not only make sense, but say them convincingly.

[tigressA]

am I the only one who feels like there's something off about this guy's manner? His analysis of Tigress struck me as condescending and a tad manipulative/slimy. It's like he's trying to control her and diffuse any legitimate concerns she may have by playing therapist and pretending he can read her mind. Maybe I'm just cynical.

 

Hmm, that's a good point. In a way I agree with it. He has come off as condescending before, but whenever he comes out with the therapist talk (even though he's right, and it could be because of what TBF said earlier--that he's a lot like me) I don't just agree and then give up completely. I have been making sure that my concerns get addressed. All the concerns I had were addressed, and resolved.

[shadowplay]

All the concerns I had were addressed, and resolved.

 

Were they really? Don't you feel at all confused by his responses?

 

He's all wishy washy. First he says the no sex thing. Then he partly retracts and says, "we'll see what happens."

 

First he says, "I'm not seeing anyone else." Then, noticing you're visibly relieved by his response, he adds, "but you shouldn't let that satisfy you. I could be lying."

 

He smoothly weaves in and out. I don't know if it's conscious manipulation, but either way I would watch out.

Edited July 21, 2010 by shadowplay

[Allisha]

Hmm, that's a good point. In a way I agree with it. He has come off as condescending before, but whenever he comes out with the therapist talk (even though he's right, and it could be because of what TBF said earlier--that he's a lot like me) I don't just agree and then give up completely. I have been making sure that my concerns get addressed. All the concerns I had were addressed, and resolved.

 

Please just be careful.

If this guy knows you as well as you say he does, then it can be dangerous as he'd know exactly how to manipulate you if these other posters are correct.

[tigressA]

Were they really? Don't you feel at all confused by his responses?

 

He's all wishy washy. First he says the no sex thing. Then he partly retracts and says, "we'll see what happens."

 

First he says, "I'm not seeing anyone else." Then, noticing you're visibly relieved by his response, he adds, "but you shouldn't let that satisfy you. I could be lying."

 

He smoothly weaves in and out. I don't know if it's conscious manipulation, but either way I would watch out.

 

He didn't say the second thing that way at all. You make it sound awful. It really wasn't. It brings up some interesting questions, actually: Is there a timeline for trust? When is it reasonable to start trusting someone? Is there a difference in trusting the statement "I'll call you tomorrow" as opposed to "I'm not seeing anyone else"? I happen to think he made a good point--we can say things to reassure someone, but if there's no trust there then the statements end up meaning little to nothing anyway.

 

And as for the first thing, he retracted after I made my point clear about "going backward". He took my concern into account and compromised, which is what I wanted.

[shadowplay]

I wouldn't put much weight on whether he's right in his observations about you. Even if he is right about what's going on in your head, this doesn't make him more trustworthy. Instead focus on why he uses this therapy manner when addressing your concerns (which is pretty unusual for a guy)? Is it a control thing? His manner creates a feeling of false intimacy because he's being open about feelings, while it actually distances himself from you.