When is it ok to have an affair?

[JustJoe]

Owoman, You stated that you live in a country where EMA'S are accepted. Perhaps you could PM me and tell me where this "cheater's utopia", is? I've been all around the globe, and have never found a single country where EMA'S and infidelity are accepted by the general public as positive lifestyles. Even in the most liberal countries, personal integrity is considered an essential to any good relationship, and cheaters are actively discouraged.

[climbergirl]

And your experience of children going through a divorce is...?

 

My children have experienced a divorce, so I know what I am talking about.

 

You cannot deny that the circumstances surrounding the divorce play into how it will impact the children. Sure, if the marriage is toxic then the children will be better off with their parents divorcing.

 

However, many times I have seen (when a marriage ends due to an affair) children choosing to side with the 'victimized' parent. Not a healthy situation, and a horrible position for any child to be in.

 

I understand that you feel the right to love and be loved by whomever, but isn't it a bit narcissistic to believe your 'right' trumps everyone elses?

 

To answer the OP's question, 'affairs' are only acceptable, IMO, if all parties are aware and comfortable in that situation.

 

And so I don't seem judgemental, I was an OW briefly and karma sure bit me in the a## when he left his wife and we got married.

[jennie-jennie]

And your experience of children going through a divorce is...?

 

My children have experienced a divorce, so I know what I am talking about.

 

I have three children. They all reacted very differently to our divorce.

 

My eldest daughter was relieved and found life better with her parents divorced.

 

My youngest daughter was very young and was as pleased with her parents divorced as she had been with them living together.

 

My middle daughter reacted very strongly and had emotional difficulties. She had been the one with the poorest relationship to her father and yet she reacted the strongest. Her father and I discussed what to do to help her with the struggle she was experiencing after our divorce. We decided that she should live full time with me for as long as it was necessary for her to get her emotional balance back. We also sought professional advice to support us in our parental role so we could provide our daughter with the support she needed.

 

We took our responsibility as parents to ensure that all our children went through the experience of divorce in a manner which was as supportive as possible for them taking consideration of their individual needs. Our girls are all wonderful, loving, compassionate teenagers and young adults today.

[jennie-jennie]

You cannot deny that the circumstances surrounding the divorce play into how it will impact the children. Sure, if the marriage is toxic then the children will be better off with their parents divorcing.

However, many times I have seen (when a marriage ends due to an affair) children choosing to side with the 'victimized' parent. Not a healthy situation, and a horrible position for any child to be in.

 

I understand that you feel the right to love and be loved by whomever, but isn't it a bit narcissistic to believe your 'right' trumps everyone elses?

 

To answer the OP's question, 'affairs' are only acceptable, IMO, if all parties are aware and comfortable in that situation.

 

And so I don't seem judgemental, I was an OW briefly and karma sure bit me in the a## when he left his wife and we got married.

 

To prevent this from happening it is important that the BS does not take on a victim role and does not badmouth the WS in front of the children. I have been the BS. I never had a problem with the kids siding with me. The kids should not be allowed that far into adult matters. It is important for the BS to support the WS' position as the father/mother of the children.

[grogster]

Thanks for sharing this perspective, grogster.

 

It's very difficult for a BS to understand the 'whys' of an affair, especially if they have never been in affair themselves. Which face it, most BS have not.

 

It is often inconceivable to a BS why their WS would be willing to hurt them, to risk it all, for a little bit of self-gratification.

 

I know I have struggled with this as a fBS for a long time. My H has explained it as best he can. I am probably as close to understanding his rationale at that time as I will ever be.

 

So at least for me, it is so helpful to read a perspective such as yours here. While I know it is not just like my H's, it is still helpful. Thank you for writing it.

 

You're most welcome, Snowflower. My affair is long over, I'm back with my wife and the MW is an ever dimming memory. Somehow, someway, our marriage (and family) survived my transgressions. A romantic affair need not always be a marital death sentence.

 

As for an affair ever being OK, my answer is no, never, absent the knowing, uncoerced consent of the betrayed spouse(s).

 

As for those who believe that an affair is OK, ask your own spouse and/or your affair partner's spouse whther s/he believes it's OK. Once you get a reply, come back here.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't know that it's such a bad thing for a child to see a parent for who they really are. Not in a brutally honest way, but when children WATCH what their parents do, they are going to think that their parents' behavior is SOP in a marriage. I don't know about anyone else, but I wouldn't want ANY of my three children thinking that one spouse sneaking around and screwing other people behind their partner's back is normal behavior in a relationship.

 

I have always loved the father of my children, so I never had any problem with showing love and compassion for him, when talking to my children, although I did not always approve of his behavior. This has most likely contributed to them not siding with any one of us. They have two parents and they should not feel the need to choose one of them before the other.

[MadMission]

And your experience of children going through a divorce is...?

 

My children have experienced a divorce, so I know what I am talking about.

 

Jennie,

 

I work with children K thru 12 in a school district servicing 3,000+ kids.

I have seen 1st hand the effects on children. Not only their initial reaction, but I have 'followed' many through the years as they move from grade to grade. The effects do vary from child to child, but I can tell you, it is never 'good.'

 

I have yet to meet the child whose parents split and the child's emotional well-being has greatly improved due to it. Nope. Never.

And, I am not a counselor...or someone who only sees the 'troubled' kids. I see ALL kids...the happy and the sad. I get to know them and have a window into their 'home life', know many of their backgrounds. There is almost always 'something' about the child of D. Sometimes it's very subtle and other times they have glaring issues which interfere with their behavior and success in school. I know kids who act out. Kids who start cutting themselves. I have known a child who only recently (now in 6th grade) finally stop laying on the floor and crying because his mom D'd his dad and went to live with OM when he was in 1st grade. I have all kinds of stories I could share. Very sad stories.

 

I have to agree with you that responsible parents can manage the D in a way which limits the pain, confusion, and sense of loss. But, sadly, many divorcing couples are so consumed with THEMSELVES and their own needs, that the kids sort of go to the wayside and just get drug along for the ride. I see this quite a bit.

 

I also want to add that, while there is never a 'good' time to D(except in the case of abuse or ugly dynamics between mom and dad,) if it can be done when the kids are under age 4, the child has no memory of their parents ever together.... and grows up with mom and dad apart as a way of life. They simply have very few years 'invested' in an intact family and can have things explained in simple, age-appropriate ways, thus they do not experience it as shock, trauma, loss, the rug getting pulled out from under them, etc. This spares them the pain and confusion which is experienced by older children.

[jennie-jennie]

You're most welcome, Snowflower. My affair is long over, I'm back with my wife and the MW is an ever dimming memory. Somehow, someway, our marriage (and family) survived my transgressions. A romantic affair need not always be a marital death sentence.

 

As for an affair ever being OK, my answer is no, never, absent the knowing, uncoerced consent of the betrayed spouse(s).

As for those who believe that an affair is OK, ask your own spouse and/or your affair partner's spouse whther s/he believes it's OK. Once you get a reply, come back here.

 

I just want to clarify that I have answered this thread as an OW not as a WS. For me it would not be okay to have an affair being a WS. That goes against my morals. I do however not condemn my MM's choice to have an affair instead of proceeding to divorce. He is not the same person as I, and I know there are reasons why he is making the choices he is.

[JamesM]

Wow...after reading the posts here, I long for an affair and a divorce. It will make my world and my children's world a much happier place.

 

Yet I cannot help but see the many statistics that show how fixing a marriage and staying out of affairs make for happier children and better adults.

http://www.marriage-success-secrets.com/statistics-about-children-and-divorce.html

http://health.discovery.com/centers/loverelationships/articles/divorce.html

 

Here are some things to consider (quoted from the first link).....

1. Half of all American children will witness the breakup of a parent’s marriage. Of these, close to half will also see the breakup of a parent’s second marriage.

 

7. Compared to children from homes disrupted by death, children from divorced homes have more psychological problems.

 

13. A study of children six years after a parental marriage breakup revealed that even after all that time, these children tended to be “lonely, unhappy, anxious and insecure.

 

15. Children of divorce are four times more likely to report problems with peers and friends than children whose parents have kept their marriages intact.

 

 

 

 

To quote some of the second link.....

Divorce Myth 3: Divorce may cause problems for many of the children who are affected by it, but by and large these problems are not long lasting and the children recover relatively quickly.

 

Fact: Divorce increases the risk of interpersonal problems in children.

 

Divorce Myth 6: When parents don't get along, children are better off if their parents divorce than if they stay together.

 

Fact: A recent large-scale, long-term study suggests otherwise.

 

Divorce Myth 7: Because they are more cautious in entering marital relationships and also have a strong determination to avoid the possibility of divorce, children who grow up in a home broken by divorce tend to have as much success in their own marriages as those from intact homes.

 

Fact: Marriages of the children of divorce actually have a much higher rate of divorce than the marriages of children from intact families.

 

And there is more. I just quoted part of each paragraph.

 

Life is not all roses in the world of affairs and divorce.

 

 

 

When my father Dd my mother and married his fOW, he might have been expected to find someone else again, down the track - and having no children to keep him in the M that time, to leave. But no such thing happened. They've been together all day every day (with only a couple of hospital stays being the exception) since then, happy as anything, more in love than ever - and no sign of any unhappiness, cheating or problems.

 

Good. And I can relate a story of a man who married his OW and left his wife. To this day even though he is married to his OW and his ex wife has died, he regrets having left his first wife. He loves his second wife, but he regrets every day how his first marriage ended and honestly wishes he could do it all over again. His children don't speak to him, and he sees his grandchildren rarely.

 

 

My H has been through an A once. He found it extremely difficult, and not sustainable. He knows what the costs and benefits are - and he knows what he risks losing.

 

The affair with you or another affair?

 

Time will tell if this marriage will be the one that will last for him.

 

 

And your experience of children going through a divorce is...?

 

My children have experienced a divorce, so I know what I am talking about.

 

And your experience is from ONE family?

 

Mine is not personal as in me being a child of divorce or me being a MM who has had an affair. My folks have been married happily for over fifty years. My wife and I despite our problems IMO (and I know hers) have been married happily overall for over twenty years.

 

My children thankfully have not experienced a divorce, and if I have anything to do with it, then they never will. If anything the comments on this thread and others like it here on LS have convinced me that it is not fair to them.

 

I am glad for you that in your world, the affair has brought about happiness to all involved or so it seems. I am happy for you that your divorce made the world a better place for all. Seriously.

 

But if I read the statistics and listen to those that I know who have gone through divorce after an affair, then I hear much sadness and pain. I know that most affairs didn't end in the two new lovebirds being married. I know of more than one child of divorce who still talks with anger about what their fathers did to their childhood simply because HE was not happy in his marriage. The confusion about how they might be to blame and the frustration from wondering if they could have helped prevent the breakup still sticks with them today.

 

And a couple of the BSs I know speak of pain and anger after ten years or more about what all happened.

 

We definitely live in different countries it seems.

 

To quote grogster.....

As for those who believe that an affair is OK, ask your own spouse and/or your affair partner's spouse whether s/he believes it's OK. Once you get a reply, come back here.

 

While those who are in affairs see the world through rose colored glasses, the ones who experience the pain have a different view.

[jennie-jennie]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm merely saying that, while you don't denigrate a parent to their child, you also do not LIE to the children.

 

Like telling a young child that babies come from a cabbage patch.

 

But neither do you have to tell the children all of the details.

[bentnotbroken]

But neither do you have to tell the children all of the details.

 

 

Why not if they ask? If a parent hasn't done anything to be ashamed of then the truth of their actions shouldn't be a problem. If the children are age appropriate of course.

[donnamaybe]

Why not if they ask? If a parent hasn't done anything to be ashamed of then the truth of their actions shouldn't be a problem. If the children are age appropriate of course.

 

Yes, you always temper the truth to match the age of the child. But it SHOULD be the truth.

[jennie-jennie]

And your experience is from ONE family?

 

Being that half the children in my country grow up with their parents divorced, I do have knowledge of many other divorced families, but naturally the experience you learn the most from is that through which you have lived yourself.

[JamesM]

Being that half the children in my country grow up with their parents divorced, I do have knowledge of many other divorced families, but naturally the experience you learn the most from is that through which you have lived yourself.

 

First, I do have to say that I admire you for explaining your position and sticking with it even though I profusely agree with it. I can say that I understand how and why affairs happen, but having children and seeing how impressionable they are, I have a hard time ignoring the effect such a selfish act from me would do to them.

 

Second, half of the children in my country also end up in divorced families. And I guess from what I read and what I have heard, most of them do not experience a happier life after as compared to the life they might have had if their parents had honored their marriage vows. While I know that this is not always possible, I do know that many men (in particular) do not think beyond the pleasure they receive in the moment when starting or continuing an affair. They profess to be concerned about their children but from what is shown, the main concern for them is their own happiness...even if it ruins the happiness of their children.

[califnan]

Second, half of the children in my country also end up in divorced families. And I guess from what I read and what I have heard, most of them do not experience a happier life after as compared to the life they might have had if their parents had honored their marriage vows. QUOTE]

 

--------------------

 

This is a true statement .. You can turn around all events of an affair to match/meet Your needs.. But you cannot make pablum out ot it for the children - or anyone else involved..

[xxoo]

I just want to clarify that I have answered this thread as an OW not as a WS. For me it would not be okay to have an affair being a WS. That goes against my morals. I do however not condemn my MM's choice to have an affair instead of proceeding to divorce. He is not the same person as I, and I know there are reasons why he is making the choices he is.

 

His behavior goes against your morals, but you actively participate in his amoral behaviors?

 

Would you condemn, say, the husband of one of your daughters who acted like your MM?

 

All this talk about divorce is confusing the issue. Dissolving a marriage and remarrying a new partner is NOT the same as engaging in a longterm affair in terms of effect on children. I believe the negative effects on the kids might be strongest during the affair (before dday), because so much time and energy is being drained away from the kids in favor of the AP.

[JustJoe]

I agree with xxoo, the damage done to the kids, is more profound , during the affair, or immediately after disclosure, IMO.

[jennie-jennie]

First, I do have to say that I admire you for explaining your position and sticking with it even though I profusely agree with it. I can say that I understand how and why affairs happen, but having children and seeing how impressionable they are, I have a hard time ignoring the effect such a selfish act from me would do to them.

 

Second, half of the children in my country also end up in divorced families. And I guess from what I read and what I have heard, most of them do not experience a happier life after as compared to the life they might have had if their parents had honored their marriage vows. While I know that this is not always possible, I do know that many men (in particular) do not think beyond the pleasure they receive in the moment when starting or continuing an affair. They profess to be concerned about their children but from what is shown, the main concern for them is their own happiness...even if it ruins the happiness of their children.

 

See this is where I disagree. I don't believe that a parent's happiness and a child's happiness in any way contradict each other.

 

Of course it is better for children if their parents stay happily married, but no parent should sacrifice their own happiness to stay married. If they do, they teach their children in their turn to sacrifice their happiness as adults. Is that what we want? Happy children and miserable adults?

 

A child can be happy whether or not his/her parents live together. An intact family is not a requirement for a child's happiness. Being with the partner you love is many times a requirement for an adult's happiness.

 

Banana, just so you don't think we have totally thread jacked. I believe this is yet an example of moral relativism. Is it right or wrong for a parent to care for their own happiness even if it is at the expense of a "broken home"?

[Lizzie60]

Hiya.. been sooooo busy these past few days.. sorry I haven't read the whole thread.. but to me.. infidelity is not always 'cheating'... in the case where the W is withholding sex because she just doesn't feel like it.. then it's his right to stray..

[jennie-jennie]

His behavior goes against your morals, but you actively participate in his amoral behaviors?

 

Would you condemn, say, the husband of one of your daughters who acted like your MM?

 

All this talk about divorce is confusing the issue. Dissolving a marriage and remarrying a new partner is NOT the same as engaging in a longterm affair in terms of effect on children. I believe the negative effects on the kids might be strongest during the affair (before dday), because so much time and energy is being drained away from the kids in favor of the AP.

 

I do not actively participate in my MM's "amoral behaviors", since what would be immoral to me would be staying in the marriage.

 

I do not think it is immoral of my MM to be in an exclusive relationship with me. I considered it cheating when he was still having sex with his wife.

 

I would condemn the husband of my daughter for not getting a divorce if he had met a new woman. My MM knows that that is my wish for him as well. I can't change his view however that he believes that what he is doing is in the best interest of his children. In his opinion it is better to have a longterm affair and stay married than to get a divorce and start anew.

[grogster]

Hiya.. been sooooo busy these past few days.. sorry I haven't read the whole thread.. but to me.. infidelity is not always 'cheating'... in the case where the W is withholding sex because she just doesn't feel like it.. then it's his right to stray..

 

That's fine as long as the straying spouse fully discloses his affair to his sex-withholding spouse, and to his OW's spouse if his OW is married.

 

A spouse who withholds sex still possesses a reasonable expectation that her spouse will not betray her sexually and emotionally. Betrayal remains betrayal regardless of whether good cause exists for the affair.

 

Cheating involves a fundamental, existential dishonesty, which exists regardless of how the cheater rationalizes his affair.

[crazycatlady]

My comment about the kittens was simply because we had gone through a very similar situation as the dog comment which is why I shared it.

 

I never answered the original question.....

 

While I think an affair is wrong, I don't think its wronger then other issues that pop up in marriages that last long term. I don't feel its worse then a drugs or alcohol or gambling etc (and might even be lesser to those), I don't feel its worse then either types of abuse (and might even be lesser to those), I don't think its worse then one spouse or another cutting off physical contact. If a marriage goes from being sexual to nothing, no matter what the spouse who is missing it says, then I feel that is just as bad as an affair. All it is is another form of cheating. Financial irresponsibility, emotional detachment, changing drastically from the person married, so on and so forth.

 

All of those tend to be long term issues, much like affairs can be. And I do feel all of those things rank right up there with cheating. A few of those are alot bigger issue to me then cheating because in my mind, they all are a form of some type of cheating.

 

CCL

[Woggle]

It is never okay because to me it is wrong to betray a person. If you have issue in your marriage then address them with your spouse and if they are unfixable then leave but to go behind a person's back and lie to them when they have trust in you is lower than low in my book.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't think it's ok to have an affair. It requires one to compromise their morals. I would hope that if my SO decided he wanted another woman, he'd just leave.

 

But did you compromise your morals by participating as an OW in the affair? This was the question Banana asked me and my answer is no. It would be interesting to hear your answer to that, jthorne.

[IronMaiden]

Integrity and honor are not all or nothing. We say all the time, that person has"'a lot" of integrity' or "little" integrity.

 

People can lose some of their integrity, and get it back, depending on insight into how their behavior is impacting or hurting others, and whether their exerting of their free will is encroaching on others' happiness and lives.

 

And we all are "judgmental" every day, all day. We decide whom we like, whom we want to associate with, whom we want to distance from and whom we should be afraid of and run from. We decide whether we should drive into certain dangerous areas, or whether we should leave our doors unlocked.

 

We all are subconsciously analyzing and making judgments about others all the time. And we should also be able to step back and judge how our behaviors impact others and make changes accordingly.