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When is it ok to have an affair?

bananalaffytaffy

By bananalaffytaffy
in Infidelity

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sally4sara Established Member

sally4sara

Posted
Posted
that rules me out, then.

 

nice try.

 

Again?:rolleyes:

 

I was responding to Maxx. I do not know your life. I was confused as to why you'd think my comment was about you till I saw you became aware of your father's affair(s).

OWoman Established Member

OWoman

Posted
Posted
Yes, CCL, but the kittens came to you, not the other way around. You didn't just see these cute kittens in the yard, and decide on your own that they would be happier with you. The kittens didn't lie to their original owners. They didn't fence sit. They didn't love you and then go home and live another life. They were clear about where they wanted to be. There was no deception on the kittens' part.

 

This describes, perfectly, the average A from the OW's perspective.

 

Yet the BW would still claim that the MM was "stolen", just as CCL's kitten's official owner may accuse her of having stolen the kittens.

 

As I stated earlier - unless the MM was kidnapped, or lacked the ability to make an informed choice ("special needs", or such), he was choosing, as did the kittens, to climb the fence into the OW's yard. The OW wasn't reaching over the fence to steal him.

jennie-jennie Established Member

jennie-jennie

Posted
Posted
Okay, since we have gotten totally off topic and it's my thread anyway... OWoman, could you please tell me what that is in your avatar?

 

Look closely and you will see. It took me a while as well.

OWoman Established Member

OWoman

Posted
Posted
Again?:rolleyes:

 

I was responding to Maxx. I do not know your life. I was confused as to why you'd think my comment was about you till I saw you became aware of your father's affair(s).

 

Because your comment was a response to Maxxx, who was agreeing with GG's comment about me.

 

Apologies if that wasn't your intention, but I was responding to the context of the response.

OWoman Established Member

OWoman

Posted
Posted
Okay, since we have gotten totally off topic and it's my thread anyway... OWoman, could you please tell me what that is in your avatar?

 

:laugh: :laugh: It's a sculpture, "The Kiss", by Brancusi He did several versions - I think this is the 1916 version?

JamesM Established Member

JamesM

Posted
Posted

I am not surprised at how many people think an affair is okay. I am not surprised that they are individuals who are in an affair or were in an affair. I think we would expect most in an affair to have good reasons why they think affairs are okay. Having posted many times about why I think affairs happen and being sympathetic to MM or MW who find themselves in affairs, I can see why they happen and why some would justify them.

 

What I am very incredulous about is the lack of concern or compassion for the families or wives that are being hurt as the result of an affair. I know that the MM chose to break his vow. I know that the OW is simply the one he chose (for if it were not her, then it would be another). I can even accept that the OW isn't technically the one who is breaking up the marriage...it is the MM's fault.

 

It just blows my mind at the attitude being portrayed regarding the victims of these travesties.

 

Perhaps the marriage was falling apart. Perhaps the wives did not "take care of" their husbands. And perhaps the wife was mentally unstable. But yet in many other cases, this is simply a cover story used by the MM to rationalize his own lack of concern for his vow. And the OW (being a potential wife and woman who may expect to marry) should understand that this MM will not suddenly become different when he (if he does) chooses to stay with her. Even if he marries her, then in a few years, he will again have rationalizations for having an affair.

 

And so caustically the children are discussed as if an affair or divorce is simply a part of growing up. So coldly they are viewed as simply unknown entities who have no feelings and future. So casually their emotions and character are dismissed as unconcernedly as the dog who sleeps next to the bed of the married couple.

 

Affairs may be fun and affairs may be a result of a broken marriage, but the consequences of this "play time" cannot be dismissed as trivial. The result of an affair is broken families and confused and angry children. While wives may have had an opportunity to prevent the affair (if told), the children had no control over this selfish act which will tear apart their world.

 

Oh, today we view divorce as nothing but a part of growing up. And adulteries are labeled "an affair" to give a romantic sound to what in reality is a huge lie. Yet the reality of an affair is that it is all about one or two people who have decided that their affections toward each other are more important than the promise they made to someone else.

 

While we may pretend that absolutes do not exist (and if I were to thread jack this thread, would could debate the illogic of that) and while we can pretend that the affair is only about love, how can we simply dismiss the consequences of the affair as simply "a part of growing up" or as acceptable?

 

The painful emotions that an affair begets are far from trivial.

 

Just some thoughts after being astounded by some of the responses posted here.

  • Author
bananalaffytaffy Established Member

bananalaffytaffy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
This describes, perfectly, the average A from the OW's perspective.

 

Yet the BW would still claim that the MM was "stolen", just as CCL's kitten's official owner may accuse her of having stolen the kittens.

 

As I stated earlier - unless the MM was kidnapped, or lacked the ability to make an informed choice ("special needs", or such), he was choosing, as did the kittens, to climb the fence into the OW's yard. The OW wasn't reaching over the fence to steal him.

I think the original analogy started because someone (jennie?) said that they had a right to a MM because they loved him. Dreaming said that she didn't have that right just because she loved him. A person could love a new Chanel dress in the boutique, but that doesn't mean they can have it. Maybe a tad simplistic, but still gets the point across. Where the point of contention lies is in ownership, IMO. If a person don't believe in marriage, they won't buy dreaming's analogy, because they won't believe that the "dog" in the scenario "belongs" to the original owner.
  • Author
bananalaffytaffy Established Member

bananalaffytaffy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
:laugh: :laugh: It's a sculpture, "The Kiss", by Brancusi He did several versions - I think this is the 1916 version?
I thought it was two people embracing and kissing. But the bulge/butt cheek looking thing near the bottom of one of them threw me off. Thanks!
califnan Established Member

califnan

Posted
Posted

 

 

This bizarre analogy only works if the MM is kidnapped, or is "special needs" and lacks the adult capacity of free will and informed choice. (This makes me a little worried about the state of the American Marriage, the way people are so quick with metaphors about "theft" of husbands, like they're inert property lacking agency and free will!)

 

QUOTE]

 

--------------------------

 

Marriage was Created by God. It is under God. It is the "one flesh covenant".

 

The wife's body is not hers alone, but her husband's as well. The husband's body is not his alone, but his wife's.

 

1Corinthians 7:4

"The wife has not power of her own body, but the husband: and like wise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

 

Thus the wife's body belongs to her husband. The husband's body belongs to his wife.

grogster Established Member

grogster

Posted
Posted
I am not surprised at how many people think an affair is okay. I am not surprised that they are individuals who are in an affair or were in an affair. I think we would expect most in an affair to have good reasons why they think affairs are okay. Having posted many times about why I think affairs happen and being sympathetic to MM or MW who find themselves in affairs, I can see why they happen and why some would justify them.

 

What I am very incredulous about is the lack of concern or compassion for the families or wives that are being hurt as the result of an affair. I know that the MM chose to break his vow. I know that the OW is simply the one he chose (for if it were not her, then it would be another). I can even accept that the OW isn't technically the one who is breaking up the marriage...it is the MM's fault.

 

It just blows my mind at the attitude being portrayed regarding the victims of these travesties.

 

Perhaps the marriage was falling apart. Perhaps the wives did not "take care of" their husbands. And perhaps the wife was mentally unstable. But yet in many other cases, this is simply a cover story used by the MM to rationalize his own lack of concern for his vow. And the OW (being a potential wife and woman who may expect to marry) should understand that this MM will not suddenly become different when he (if he does) chooses to stay with her. Even if he marries her, then in a few years, he will again have rationalizations for having an affair.

 

And so caustically the children are discussed as if an affair or divorce is simply a part of growing up. So coldly they are viewed as simply unknown entities who have no feelings and future. So casually their emotions and character are dismissed as unconcernedly as the dog who sleeps next to the bed of the married couple.

 

Affairs may be fun and affairs may be a result of a broken marriage, but the consequences of this "play time" cannot be dismissed as trivial. The result of an affair is broken families and confused and angry children. While wives may have had an opportunity to prevent the affair (if told), the children had no control over this selfish act which will tear apart their world.

 

Oh, today we view divorce as nothing but a part of growing up. And adulteries are labeled "an affair" to give a romantic sound to what in reality is a huge lie. Yet the reality of an affair is that it is all about one or two people who have decided that their affections toward each other are more important than the promise they made to someone else.

 

While we may pretend that absolutes do not exist (and if I were to thread jack this thread, would could debate the illogic of that) and while we can pretend that the affair is only about love, how can we simply dismiss the consequences of the affair as simply "a part of growing up" or as acceptable?

 

The painful emotions that an affair begets are far from trivial.

 

Just some thoughts after being astounded by some of the responses posted here.

 

 

As an affair veteran, I agree wholeheartedly, James.

 

A romantic affair demands a moral tunnel vision. When in the heat of an affair,the experience can be so intensely pleasureable and addictive such that you neither think about betrayed loved ones nor weigh the harm your betrayal will cause. It's all about the affair partners: relationship narcissism.

 

An affair is primarily orgasms and lies, with compassion, empathy and truth all but abandoned.

 

Unlike family vacations, an affair is better experienced than remembered. Infidelity leaves a bad aftertaste.

bentnotbroken Established Member

bentnotbroken

Posted
Posted

 

 

--------------------------

 

Marriage was Created by God. It is under God. It is the "one flesh covenant".

 

The wife's body is not hers alone, but her husband's as well. The husband's body is not his alone, but his wife's.

 

1Corinthians 7:4

"The wife has not power of her own body, but the husband: and like wise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

 

Thus the wife's body belongs to her husband. The husband's body belongs to his wife.

 

Now you know that I agree with this, but the truth is most people don't perscribe to this train of thought. They view marriage as a business deal, a temporary state of being or as a social construct. All those things allow for the mindset of it is "okay" to have an affair.

 

This isn't new, it's just more open and acceptable now. We see it posted all the time about marriage being old fashioned or out of date. It is sad when family has been reduced something that can be adjusted to support emotions instead of the other way around.

Samantha0905 Established Member

Samantha0905

Posted
Posted
:laugh: :laugh: It's a sculpture, "The Kiss", by Brancusi He did several versions - I think this is the 1916 version?

 

I thought it was a sumo wrestler's bottom or something! :laugh: Glad you clarified the sculpture -- I will look at it in a different light! :D

OWoman Established Member

OWoman

Posted
Posted
I thought it was two people embracing and kissing. But the bulge/butt cheek looking thing near the bottom of one of them threw me off. Thanks!

 

it's her breast! :laugh:

Spark1111 Established Member

Spark1111

Posted
Posted
I am not surprised at how many people think an affair is okay. I am not surprised that they are individuals who are in an affair or were in an affair. I think we would expect most in an affair to have good reasons why they think affairs are okay. Having posted many times about why I think affairs happen and being sympathetic to MM or MW who find themselves in affairs, I can see why they happen and why some would justify them.

 

What I am very incredulous about is the lack of concern or compassion for the families or wives that are being hurt as the result of an affair. I know that the MM chose to break his vow. I know that the OW is simply the one he chose (for if it were not her, then it would be another). I can even accept that the OW isn't technically the one who is breaking up the marriage...it is the MM's fault.

 

It just blows my mind at the attitude being portrayed regarding the victims of these travesties.

 

Perhaps the marriage was falling apart. Perhaps the wives did not "take care of" their husbands. And perhaps the wife was mentally unstable. But yet in many other cases, this is simply a cover story used by the MM to rationalize his own lack of concern for his vow. And the OW (being a potential wife and woman who may expect to marry) should understand that this MM will not suddenly become different when he (if he does) chooses to stay with her. Even if he marries her, then in a few years, he will again have rationalizations for having an affair.

 

Couldn't agree more James! And I think the truth or lies as portaryed by the unhappy MM/MW are only one side of the story.

 

I also believe it is often by design, to invoke sympathy from the potential AP and to have him/her compete to meet the needs the BS is apparently not meeting.

 

If I tell you my spouse never pays attention to me, you will hang on my every word.

 

If I tell you he never initiates sex, you will rip my clothes off.

 

It works.

 

And so caustically the children are discussed as if an affair or divorce is simply a part of growing up. So coldly they are viewed as simply unknown entities who have no feelings and future. So casually their emotions and character are dismissed as unconcernedly as the dog who sleeps next to the bed of the married couple.

 

Affairs devastate children.

 

Affairs may be fun and affairs may be a result of a broken marriage, but the consequences of this "play time" cannot be dismissed as trivial. The result of an affair is broken families and confused and angry children. While wives may have had an opportunity to prevent the affair (if told), the children had no control over this selfish act which will tear apart their world.

 

Oh, today we view divorce as nothing but a part of growing up. And adulteries are labeled "an affair" to give a romantic sound to what in reality is a huge lie. Yet the reality of an affair is that it is all about one or two people who have decided that their affections toward each other are more important than the promise they made to someone else.

 

While we may pretend that absolutes do not exist (and if I were to thread jack this thread, would could debate the illogic of that) and while we can pretend that the affair is only about love, how can we simply dismiss the consequences of the affair as simply "a part of growing up" or as acceptable?

 

The painful emotions that an affair begets are far from trivial.

 

Just some thoughts after being astounded by some of the responses posted here.

 

Affairs just happen, dontcha know? And "we just fell in love, or lust," so it is nobody's fault.

 

Except the unsuspecting BS.;)

  • Author
bananalaffytaffy Established Member

bananalaffytaffy

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

 

Marriage was Created by God. It is under God. It is the "one flesh covenant".

 

The wife's body is not hers alone, but her husband's as well. The husband's body is not his alone, but his wife's.

 

1Corinthians 7:4

"The wife has not power of her own body, but the husband: and like wise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

 

Thus the wife's body belongs to her husband. The husband's body belongs to his wife.

 

Now you know that I agree with this, but the truth is most people don't perscribe to this train of thought. They view marriage as a business deal, a temporary state of being or as a social construct. All those things allow for the mindset of it is "okay" to have an affair.

 

This isn't new, it's just more open and acceptable now. We see it posted all the time about marriage being old fashioned or out of date. It is sad when family has been reduced something that can be adjusted to support emotions instead of the other way around.

I agree with both of you. But califnan, what do you do with those that don't believe in God and only believe in free will? (other than pray for them :)) Edited by bananalaffytaffy
  • Author
bananalaffytaffy Established Member

bananalaffytaffy

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I thought it was a sumo wrestler's bottom or something! :laugh: Glad you clarified the sculpture -- I will look at it in a different light! :D

 

it's her breast! :laugh:
I'm glad you clarified too!

This is one reason why art is interesting... because people take different things from it!

xxoo Established Member

xxoo

Posted
Posted
I agree with both of you. But califnan, what do you do with those that don't believe in God and only believe in free will? (other than pray for them :))

 

I don't believe in God. Belief in god is not necessary to understand that cheating is wrong.

sally4sara Established Member

sally4sara

Posted
Posted

Marriage was Created by God. It is under God. It is the "one flesh covenant".

 

The wife's body is not hers alone, but her husband's as well. The husband's body is not his alone, but his wife's.

 

1Corinthians 7:4

"The wife has not power of her own body, but the husband: and like wise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

 

Thus the wife's body belongs to her husband. The husband's body belongs to his wife.

 

I too agree with this tho it has nothing to do with religion.

If two people commit to one another and agree to not sleep with others, they have bound themselves only to each other and the maintaining of each others sexual health. If they collectively choose to risk their sexual health, they know what they are stepping into. If one is sneaking, their solo actions can affect both bodies without the consent of their spouse. In this way, they are one body and belong to each other.

OWoman Established Member

OWoman

Posted
Posted
And the OW (being a potential wife and woman who may expect to marry) should understand that this MM will not suddenly become different when he (if he does) chooses to stay with her. Even if he marries her, then in a few years, he will again have rationalizations for having an affair.

 

All things being equal, yes, there is that risk. But the second M is not necessarily like the first. Sometimes it really is just a case of two wrong people together. When my father Dd my mother and married his fOW, he might have been expected to find someone else again, down the track - and having no children to keep him in the M that time, to leave. But no such thing happened. They've been together all day every day (with only a couple of hospital stays being the exception) since then, happy as anything, more in love than ever - and no sign of any unhappiness, cheating or problems. They're better suited. Their expectations are more aligned. There are no kids to stress them and no roles to conform to but those that they themselves choose. It's a very different situation to the M between my father and my mother, so his response is different.

 

In my own case - my H underwent counselling, which allowed him to stand up to his xW, to break free from the abuse and to leave the M. He operates very differently in Rs now - partly because of the skills and insights he gained through counselling, and partly because I am not his xW, I don't behave or respond as she does and I go about a M very differently to how she did. But also because, having gone through what we both had to go through to get to where we are now, we're both very aware of how precious our R is, how lucky we are to be together, and how very special we each are to each other. This informs everything we say to, or hear from, each other, and it keeps a sense of perspective.

 

My H has been through an A once. He found it extremely difficult, and not sustainable. He knows what the costs and benefits are - and he knows what he risks losing. He's also learned that friends, family and colleagues are there for him, that he has a support system, and that if he's in touch with his needs and desires and communicates them, things can get resolved above board without having to resort to subterranean means to survive.

 

And I don't abuse him :)

 

 

The result of an affair is broken families and confused and angry children. While wives may have had an opportunity to prevent the affair (if told), the children had no control over this selfish act which will tear apart their world.

 

My experience as the child of a WS are different. My world was not "torn apart" by the A, it was wrecked by the bad M. The A brought a little salve to what was an already dire situation. The A was good news IME, not bad.

 

Looking at my H's kids, too - they're a lot happier now. They were "problem kids" before - failing academically, problem behaviour, all kinds of alarm bells ringing. Now they're performing well academically, they're involved in all kinds of extramural activities and doing really well, and they're HAPPY! They have close friends (while before they were loners), they have active social lives and they form functional, solid, Rs with the opposite sex. They're great. We get on really well, and even their R with their mother has improved. They have a shot at a normal life now, which they didn't have before.

 

it's not all doom and gloom.

  • Author
bananalaffytaffy Established Member

bananalaffytaffy

Posted
  • Author
Posted

OWoman,

I'm sorry, I do not know all your history, other that what you've stated here. When you went into your A with your now H, did you go into the A expecting it to just be a NSA A, or did you go in wanting more, or did that develop naturally?

Maxxx Established Member

Maxxx

Posted
Posted
OTC. Someone who chooses a lifestyle which differs from yours is demonstrating choice, not dysfunction.

 

Perhaps you need some counselling to allow you to see alternatives beyond your own narrow experience?

 

 

Well it would seem in this thread that there are far more people that believe an affair is WRONG then right....

 

But hey that's what make the world go around..... Is different opinions

Snowflower Established Member

Snowflower

Posted
Posted
As an affair veteran, I agree wholeheartedly, James.

 

A romantic affair demands a moral tunnel vision. When in the heat of an affair,the experience can be so intensely pleasureable and addictive such that you neither think about betrayed loved ones nor weigh the harm your betrayal will cause. It's all about the affair partners: relationship narcissism.

 

An affair is primarily orgasms and lies, with compassion, empathy and truth all but abandoned.

 

Unlike family vacations, an affair is better experienced than remembered. Infidelity leaves a bad aftertaste.

 

Thanks for sharing this perspective, grogster.

 

It's very difficult for a BS to understand the 'whys' of an affair, especially if they have never been in affair themselves. Which face it, most BS have not.

 

It is often inconceivable to a BS why their WS would be willing to hurt them, to risk it all, for a little bit of self-gratification.

 

I know I have struggled with this as a fBS for a long time. My H has explained it as best he can. I am probably as close to understanding his rationale at that time as I will ever be.

 

So at least for me, it is so helpful to read a perspective such as yours here. While I know it is not just like my H's, it is still helpful. Thank you for writing it.

jennie-jennie Established Member

jennie-jennie

Posted
Posted
I am not surprised at how many people think an affair is okay. I am not surprised that they are individuals who are in an affair or were in an affair. I think we would expect most in an affair to have good reasons why they think affairs are okay. Having posted many times about why I think affairs happen and being sympathetic to MM or MW who find themselves in affairs, I can see why they happen and why some would justify them.

 

What I am very incredulous about is the lack of concern or compassion for the families or wives that are being hurt as the result of an affair. I know that the MM chose to break his vow. I know that the OW is simply the one he chose (for if it were not her, then it would be another). I can even accept that the OW isn't technically the one who is breaking up the marriage...it is the MM's fault.

 

It just blows my mind at the attitude being portrayed regarding the victims of these travesties.

 

Perhaps the marriage was falling apart. Perhaps the wives did not "take care of" their husbands. And perhaps the wife was mentally unstable. But yet in many other cases, this is simply a cover story used by the MM to rationalize his own lack of concern for his vow. And the OW (being a potential wife and woman who may expect to marry) should understand that this MM will not suddenly become different when he (if he does) chooses to stay with her. Even if he marries her, then in a few years, he will again have rationalizations for having an affair.

 

And so caustically the children are discussed as if an affair or divorce is simply a part of growing up. So coldly they are viewed as simply unknown entities who have no feelings and future. So casually their emotions and character are dismissed as unconcernedly as the dog who sleeps next to the bed of the married couple.

 

Affairs may be fun and affairs may be a result of a broken marriage, but the consequences of this "play time" cannot be dismissed as trivial. The result of an affair is broken families and confused and angry children. While wives may have had an opportunity to prevent the affair (if told), the children had no control over this selfish act which will tear apart their world.

 

Oh, today we view divorce as nothing but a part of growing up. And adulteries are labeled "an affair" to give a romantic sound to what in reality is a huge lie. Yet the reality of an affair is that it is all about one or two people who have decided that their affections toward each other are more important than the promise they made to someone else.

 

While we may pretend that absolutes do not exist (and if I were to thread jack this thread, would could debate the illogic of that) and while we can pretend that the affair is only about love, how can we simply dismiss the consequences of the affair as simply "a part of growing up" or as acceptable?

 

The painful emotions that an affair begets are far from trivial.

 

Just some thoughts after being astounded by some of the responses posted here.

 

And your experience of children going through a divorce is...?

 

My children have experienced a divorce, so I know what I am talking about.

jennie-jennie Established Member

jennie-jennie

Posted
Posted
Marriage was Created by God. It is under God. It is the "one flesh covenant".

 

The wife's body is not hers alone, but her husband's as well. The husband's body is not his alone, but his wife's.

 

1Corinthians 7:4

"The wife has not power of her own body, but the husband: and like wise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

 

Thus the wife's body belongs to her husband. The husband's body belongs to his wife.

 

My MM has full access to my body and I to his. We don't need marriage to decide that, that is a natural part of a truly intimate relationship.

jennie-jennie Established Member

jennie-jennie

Posted
Posted
As an affair veteran, I agree wholeheartedly, James.

 

A romantic affair demands a moral tunnel vision. When in the heat of an affair,the experience can be so intensely pleasureable and addictive such that you neither think about betrayed loved ones nor weigh the harm your betrayal will cause. It's all about the affair partners: relationship narcissism.

 

An affair is primarily orgasms and lies, with compassion, empathy and truth all but abandoned.

 

Unlike family vacations, an affair is better experienced than remembered. Infidelity leaves a bad aftertaste.

 

Sorry that is your experience, grogster, our relationship is like any ordinary relationship.

While the thread author can add an update and reopen discussion, this thread was last posted in over a month ago. Want to continue the conversation? Feel free to start a new thread instead!
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