When is it ok to have an affair?

[OWoman]

My country has a zealous belief in personal freedom. It's instilled in most of us from birth, and so I will always defend your right to your own belief system and your own moral compass. However, I was also taught that my freedom ends where yours begins. In other words, I have the right to live like I want, to be who I want, to do what I want, as long as it doesn't interfere with your right to do the same.

 

Please don't take offense, you know I like you, but when you say things like the above (and not just you, plenty of others here say similar things all the time), it comes across to many of us as "I'll do what I want, and I don't give a damn who it hurts". I know that's not what you mean, but that's how many here will take it.

 

People that do believe in the sanctity of marriage have that right just as much as you have the right not to.

 

Fair enough, Reeb - but, if any of the MMs I shagged believed in the sanctity of M, why would they be shagging me? I'm not forcing them to - it was a proposition which they were free to accept or reject. By accepting, I'm assuming that they're agreeing to cede any rights they had to their "belief in the sanctity of M" being respected by me and my behaviour.

 

If you're not referring to the MMs by to their BWs - well, that's between the BW and her H. I have no R with the BW; I have no negotiations with her, no knowledge of her belief system or otherwise. Her H does - and the choice to respect that or not is his.

 

If I make bacon saamies, and offer one to a man whose wife is strictly halaal - is it my fault if he willingly accepts one, knowing his W's principles will be offended? Or is it up to him to refuse, knowing that eating bacon will cause her distress?

[reboot]

Fair enough, Reeb - but, if any of the MMs I shagged believed in the sanctity of M, why would they be shagging me? I'm not forcing them to - it was a proposition which they were free to accept or reject. By accepting, I'm assuming that they're agreeing to cede any rights they had to their "belief in the sanctity of M" being respected by me and my behaviour.

 

If you're not referring to the MMs by to their BWs - well, that's between the BW and her H. I have no R with the BW; I have no negotiations with her, no knowledge of her belief system or otherwise. Her H does - and the choice to respect that or not is his.

 

See, that's a much more thoughtful way to put it. Some will still disagree, but they'll have a lot more trouble getting up in arms about it. The manner in which it's more typically presented here sounds more like, "All your husbands are belong to me biatches! Keep them if you can!".

[xxoo]

If I make bacon saamies, and offer one to a man whose wife is strictly halaal - is it my fault if he willingly accepts one, knowing his W's principles will be offended? Or is it up to him to refuse, knowing that eating bacon will cause her distress?

 

You are comparing yourself to a slab of meat?

[OWoman]

You are comparing yourself to a slab of meat?

 

you're saying I'm a pig? I did say,

 

If I make bacon saamies

 

I don't know any people who make sandwiches out of themselves, but I guess anything is possible.

 

(Short answer - no, I was not comparing myself to a slab of meat. It was an analogy.)

[reboot]

I don't know any people who make sandwiches out of themselves

 

I almost said... but no, no, I'm not touching that one.

[xxoo]

(Short answer - no, I was not comparing myself to a slab of meat. It was an analogy.)

 

Offering some bacon to a man is analogous to offering your body?

[OWoman]

The manner in which it's more typically presented here sounds more like, "All your husbands are belong to me biatches! Keep them if you can!".

 

Ah - but there's a difference between wanting someone to BELONG to you, and wanting usufruct rights now and again when it suits you!

 

I've never wanted ownership of a whole H all to myself (before, during an A) - I simply wanted occasional use of their body, when the craving spoke. If I'd wanted a whole H, all to myself, I'd have gotten / kept one... which I guess I did, finally, but that wasn't the original plan

[OWoman]

I almost said... but no, no, I'm not touching that one.

 

:laugh: I wonder what happened to that "human sandwich" thread poster. Perhaps she's still out there, baking cakes, somewhere...

[sally4sara]

If I were stricken with some debilitating condition and I was likely to die rather than get better, I'd probably understand if my husband sought some fleeting comfort with someone else. It would be wrenching and stressful for him to try care for me; watching me decline, knowing I'd eventually die.

I wouldn't want to know about it tho.

 

This is a personal opinion, not instructional in anyway.

[OWoman]

Offering some bacon to a man is analogous to offering your body?

 

Offering him SOMETHING that he wanted, but which might offend his W's sensibilities.

 

If a bacon saamie doesn't do it for you - how about a tattoo of a religious symbol of a faith to which she doesn't subscribe?

 

Or a Prince Albert piercing?

 

Or any of a million other silly examples. I think the point is clear enough, without getting hung up on the details of the analogy.

[xxoo]

Offering him SOMETHING that he wanted, but which might offend his W's sensibilities.

 

If a bacon saamie doesn't do it for you - how about a tattoo of a religious symbol of a faith to which she doesn't subscribe?

 

Or a Prince Albert piercing?

 

Or any of a million other silly examples. I think the point is clear enough, without getting hung up on the details of the analogy.

 

I did think there was something beautifully Freudian about your initial example

 

Is it really simply about offending the BS's sensibilities? I don't think so.

[jennie-jennie]

Because I don't recognise the "sanctity" of M, there is absolutely no moral imperative barring me from indulging in MMs as sexual partners.

 

Ah - but there's a difference between wanting someone to BELONG to you, and wanting usufruct rights now and again when it suits you!

 

I've never wanted ownership of a whole H all to myself (before, during an A) - I simply wanted occasional use of their body, when the craving spoke. If I'd wanted a whole H, all to myself, I'd have gotten / kept one... which I guess I did, finally, but that wasn't the original plan

 

Now I have to ask you, OWoman, do you not believe that somebody who wants a MM to belong to them has the right to not recognize the sanctity of marriage and therefore consider there being absolutely no moral imperative barring them from indulging in MMs as sexual partners?

[crazycatlady]

 

You have NO right to be going near any member of that family. As a child of a father who had an affair I can tell you that it brought nothing but shame and dismay into our family. Was I happy that my father found some "new love" at the expense of my mother's dignity. Absolutely not. What utter crap! A man who truly cares for his children will not betray their mother like this and break everyone's heart. He will own his decisions and pick what is best for everyone, be that creating a healthier relationship with his wife or if that is not possible, leaving. The needs of the children are a healthy, bonded, happy family, even into adulthood despite the divorce everyone rhetoric that seems to thrive today.

 

You have no right to sleep with another woman's husband. It is like taking the neighbour's dog because you think he likes you better. It is theft, pure and simple. If he wants a new home (in the familial sense) then he should leave and stop his irresponsible behaviour. I cannot believe the justifications that OW/OM come up with, "I am in love, I cannot help it" please! How did you make it through high school?

 

See, this actually happened with us, only it was cats (surely the animal is not surprising). The neighbor across the fence from us had two new kittens. The kittens loved us. They lived in our yard. We couldn't get them to stay back over in the neighbor's yard. They ran into our house every chance they got. They loved us. We would return them when we heard the kids outside, but 90% of the time the kittens were ignored by their original owners. They were kept outside in the rain, not allowed inside with the warmth and love of the family.

 

After about two months of trying to keep the cats out of our hearts and out of our house, we gave up. They wanted us. We wanted them. I feel bad for the girls who wanted kittens to play with every now and then, but most of the time the kittens were ignored and neglected. Their needs were never considered by that family. And they gravitated to the family that did love them.

 

We currently have yet another cat who is trying his darnest to adopt us, but at least this one as far as we know doesn't have another family.

 

Anyway, what we did was technically wrong. But the kittens wanted us, not their original family. And try as we might in the beginning, we couldn't get them to stay with their original family because the original family did not love them enough, care for their needs enough.

 

Sounds like some affairs to me.

 

And then there are the cats who have food bowls in several houses around here, those are the seriel cheaters.

 

CCL

[OWoman]

Now I have to ask you, OWoman, do you not believe that somebody who wants a MM to belong to them has the right to not recognize the sanctity of marriage and therefore consider there being absolutely no moral imperative barring them from indulging in MMs as sexual partners?

 

Hey Jen.

 

I wasn't commenting on that, at all - I was simply stating that *I* wouldn't have put it that way (that Reeb did) because I didn't want them to BELONG to me. I just wanted occasional usage

 

But on the point you raised - I don't recognise other people as possessions; I consider them as agents with their own choice and free will. So ANYONE who wants to "own" another person is on shaky ground, IMO. I think each individual should choose who - or who all - they want to be with, and not be chosen or owned by anyone else.

 

Whether or not M is a moral deterrent to their engaging with someone or not would be down to the individuals concerned. If they recognise the sanctity of M, then yes, it will exert a moral imperative. If not, it won't. But that's their call, not mine.

[greengoddess]

As a child of a father who had an A, I can tell you that it brought lightness, happiness and closeness to our father into our family, where before there had been alienation, withdrawn solitude and unhappiness. Was I happy that my father had found some "new love"? Yes, absolutely. (My mother's dignity was not remotely affected. She'd blown that with her alcoholism and neurosis long before.)

 

 

 

I wonder if your mom was neurotic and drawn to alcohol from being gaslighted so long by a cheating husband. It makes me sad the hatred you seem to have for your mother and makes me wonder if that's wh you have chosen to act how you do. Did you see your mother as weak and have chosen to never be weak and thus choose to conquer mm until you finally fell in love and married one. You seem to have the same hatred for your mm's wife as your mother. Fascinating and yet sad.

[jennie-jennie]

Hey Jen.

 

I wasn't commenting on that, at all - I was simply stating that *I* wouldn't have put it that way (that Reeb did) because I didn't want them to BELONG to me. I just wanted occasional usage

 

But on the point you raised - I don't recognise other people as possessions; I consider them as agents with their own choice and free will. So ANYONE who wants to "own" another person is on shaky ground, IMO. I think each individual should choose who - or who all - they want to be with, and not be chosen or owned by anyone else.

 

I believe we agree. I shouldn't have used the word "belong". What I meant was when you want more than "occasional usage", you want a regular relationship based on the choice and free will of both participating of course, and you are hoping that it will lead to the MM leaving his marriage.

Whether or not M is a moral deterrent to their engaging with someone or not would be down to the individuals concerned. If they recognise the sanctity of M, then yes, it will exert a moral imperative. If not, it won't. But that's their call, not mine.

 

I totally agree.

[OWoman]

I wonder if your mom was neurotic and drawn to alcohol from being gaslighted so long by a cheating husband. It makes me sad the hatred you seem to have for your mother and makes me wonder if that's wh you have chosen to act how you do. Did you see your mother as weak and have chosen to never be weak and thus choose to conquer mm until you finally fell in love and married one. You seem to have the same hatred for your mm's wife as your mother. Fascinating and yet sad.

 

Nice try, but wrong. My mother's dysfunction long predated my father's A. If there's any causality, it's the other way around (my mother's dysfunction "causing" my father's A). My father's A happened long after my views on M, on Rs, and on matters of the heart generally, had been cast in concrete. If anything, it allowed a little bit of romance to creep in and nudge out some of the hardened cynicism.

 

I don't hate my mother. I pity her, and continue to support her but at arm's length. But because my duty to my children was greater than my obligation to my mother, I could no longer allow the risks of having my mother live with us, and it's been "tough love" since then. My mother is not the only alcoholic in my family, and I'm very well versed in the patterns of this disease. I recognise the limitations in BOTH of my parents, and time (and parenting) has allowed me to recognise more of their positive attributes, too.

 

You've drawn interesting, if erroneous, conclusions about my Rs with MMs - yet you are silent on my Rs with anyone else, despite there having been rather more SGs over the course of my life than MMs, all told. And women? Am I allowed women, to "exorcise the demons of my (alleged) hatred for my mother", or am I forbidden women because I must hate women since I (allegedly) hate my mother, and my H's xW? (Actually, I don't know her well enough to hate her, or to have an opinion on her as a person either way. I've not met her - seen her face to face only once - and for the rest know of her only by reputation. Which, admittedly, is not nice - I've yet to hear a positive thing about her from anyone - but she must have some good characteristics, or she wouldn't have snared two Hs and and a BF [that I know of], surely?)

 

But nice try - however flawed.

[greengoddess]

something in your life has caused you to prey on mm. ours is not the case of falling in love first. You have numerous times sought out mm.

[Maxxx]

something in your life has caused you to prey on mm. ours is not the case of falling in love first. You have numerous times sought out mm.

 

 

In agreement with this 100% I think she needs some counseling of some sort but its like an alcoholic they can't get help till they admit they have an issue.

[OWoman]

something in your life has caused you to prey on mm. ours is not the case of falling in love first. You have numerous times sought out mm.

 

As I've explained many times, the "something" that caused me to "prey on MMs" was... my life! I was far too busy living my life to want to be someone's social worker, doing their emotional laundry. I did not want some clingy, dependent guy hanging about making demands. I wanted to get on with living my life, enjoying my friends, my family, my work, my pets, my home and y hobbies, and picking up the phone and scheduling some hot passionate sex when I wanted it with whoever I wanted it with at the time - hence my having a bank of lovers on standby.

 

Because that kind of lifestyle didn't suit SGs - they inevitably wanted "more", wanted me to be some kind of fashion accessory to show off to their mates, some incubator for their spawn and an audience for them to display their charms to - I found other guys who similarly wanted that kind of an agreement. Who were M. They got all the other stuff somewhere else - they had Ws to incubate their spawn, to show off to their mates or to listen to their displays of greatness - so they didn't have to make those demands of me. I got to live my life, and they got to live theirs. And because they all knew they were one of a number, they all knew they weren't "special", so there was no need to pretend on their part.

 

And it worked just great! I had everything exactly as I wanted. If you consider that dysfunctional, that's your call, but happiness and fulfilment have always mattered far more to me than conformity.

[sally4sara]

In agreement with this 100% I think she needs some counseling of some sort but its like an alcoholic they can't get help till they admit they have an issue.

 

There has been some correlation between women aware as children that their father was cheating and then growing up to seek out MM. They feel their father was choosing other OW over them and the family. They tend to need more than just male approval, but for that approval to come at the cost of someone (wife, family, SO) else. They need to be chosen OVER someone or something else and get a power rush out of getting committed men to act on their advances and become willing to risk their marriage and/or job.

[OWoman]

In agreement with this 100% I think she needs some counseling of some sort but its like an alcoholic they can't get help till they admit they have an issue.

 

OTC. Someone who chooses a lifestyle which differs from yours is demonstrating choice, not dysfunction.

 

Perhaps you need some counselling to allow you to see alternatives beyond your own narrow experience?

[OWoman]

There has been some correlation between women aware as children that their father was cheating and then growing up to seek out MM. They feel their father was choosing other OW over them and the family. They tend to need more than just male approval, but for that approval to come at the cost of someone (wife, family, SO) else. They need to be chosen OVER someone or something else and get a power rush out of getting committed men to act on their advances and become willing to risk their marriage and/or job.

 

that rules me out, then.

 

nice try.

[bananalaffytaffy]

See, this actually happened with us, only it was cats (surely the animal is not surprising). The neighbor across the fence from us had two new kittens. The kittens loved us. They lived in our yard. We couldn't get them to stay back over in the neighbor's yard. They ran into our house every chance they got. They loved us. We would return them when we heard the kids outside, but 90% of the time the kittens were ignored by their original owners. They were kept outside in the rain, not allowed inside with the warmth and love of the family.

 

After about two months of trying to keep the cats out of our hearts and out of our house, we gave up. They wanted us. We wanted them. I feel bad for the girls who wanted kittens to play with every now and then, but most of the time the kittens were ignored and neglected. Their needs were never considered by that family. And they gravitated to the family that did love them.

 

We currently have yet another cat who is trying his darnest to adopt us, but at least this one as far as we know doesn't have another family.

 

Anyway, what we did was technically wrong. But the kittens wanted us, not their original family. And try as we might in the beginning, we couldn't get them to stay with their original family because the original family did not love them enough, care for their needs enough.

 

Sounds like some affairs to me.

 

And then there are the cats who have food bowls in several houses around here, those are the seriel cheaters.

 

CCL

Yes, CCL, but the kittens came to you, not the other way around. You didn't just see these cute kittens in the yard, and decide on your own that they would be happier with you. The kittens didn't lie to their original owners. They didn't fence sit. They didn't love you and then go home and live another life. They were clear about where they wanted to be. There was no deception on the kittens' part.

[bananalaffytaffy]

Okay, since we have gotten totally off topic and it's my thread anyway... OWoman, could you please tell me what that is in your avatar?