When is it ok to have an affair?

[bananalaffytaffy]

That is not an option to me. My bond to my MM is too strong.

This is very interesting to me. One would assume that because you are bonded to the MM that he would have the "upper hand" in the R- he knows you are hooked. He can take his time making a decision, or not make one at all.

 

On the other hand, if you are willing to walk away when you've had enough, then maybe it's you that has the upper hand.

 

Doesn't mean it's right (to me), and I have no idea how this relates to morality, but it's interesting anyway.

[xxoo]

That is not an option to me. My bond to my MM is too strong. That is why I never recommend NC until you are absolutely sure you are done and prepared to end the relationship forever.

 

It isn't that the bond is "too strong". It is that the motivation is too weak.

 

If your MM hurt one of your children, would your bond be "too strong" to break it off? No, of course not.

 

Right now he is only hurting his children, not yours. For me, that would be enough motivation. I couldn't respect a man who did that.

[jennie-jennie]

Thank you for responding. Since you have, I have some questions.

 

Just to make it clear to everybody, I am talking about my personal morals here. I believe in relative morals, which means that my morals are indeed not the same as others.

Where does this "right" come from? You decided you had this right? He did? God did? Who decided that you had this right? I'm not questioning your right, I'm just trying to understand.

 

I was born a naked baby just like the next person. That is when I received that right. Marriages are just a construction of society to keep people in place.

So does this mean a ONS with him would not be your right or acceptable to you? Or is the A justified because of the love?

 

A ONS would not be acceptable, no. Trying to seduce someone's spouse just for the fun of it would not be acceptable, no. The affair is justified because of the love, yes.

Required by who? Society? You? Your SO?

 

By my personal morals. But also by the agreement I had with my SO about honesty and telling if/when we crossed the line of sexual exclusivity to each other.

Are affairs looked down upon in your country, or are they more accepted than they are in the US?

 

More accepted. Everybody I know knows of my affair with MM, even my elderly parents. Long term affairs are however not as common here as in the US, due to the lesser stigma of a divorce.

So do you feel like you've changed your morals to be with him?

 

No, I am true to the morals I had before our relationship.

[bananalaffytaffy]

It isn't that the bond is "too strong". It is that the motivation is too weak.

 

If your MM hurt one of your children, would your bond be "too strong" to break it off? No, of course not.

 

Right now he is only hurting his children, not yours. For me, that would be enough motivation. I couldn't respect a man who did that.

Playing devil's advocate, maybe the nice way he treats her children (if he knows them) is one of the things that "bonds" her to him...

 

I agree that he's hurting his children, but according to Jennie, that's his problem not hers.

 

See, this is where I have a problem with the "his problem, not mine" argument. To me, part of a relationship is being a team and sharing. What's mine is yours, yada yada. Your problem is my problem, so to speak. So if your problem is my problem, the fact that one is a cheater IS a big problem. Just my view, but I enjoy learning about other's.

[Lecturer]

jennie-jennie, are you familiar with the legal term of "willful blindness"? You may claim that morals are different in your country than in the US (I'm not from the US either), but I'm willing to bet your country's legal system does not allow Willful Blindness to be an acceptable legal defense.

 

Before you say it, yes, law generally reflects the moral majority of a populace (although sometimes delayed by a period of time).

 

I'm not going to claim I'm morally superior, nor will I won't claim I'd never cheat or be involved with a married person. I will, however, admit that I'd be morally wrong to take any action with the cold, sober, conscious knowledge that it is making me an accessory to the suffering of others.

 

I may not have stolen that TV, but if I possess it or in any way benefit from the proceeds of the crime, I am guilty too.

[jennie-jennie]

The problem I have with my MM is quite the opposite. I don't like that he feels bound by vows which he now longer can stand by.

 

I would be very reluctant to marry my MM, given that I have seen how bound he is by his word.

 

We have an agreement that we are sexually exclusive, but we also have an agreement that we can end the exclusivity at any time by telling that we no longer wish this. That to me is honesty. Honesty is worth much more to me than keeping a vow.

 

I wanted to add to this, but was too late to edit:

 

It seems to me that vows in fact foster dishonesty.

[jennie-jennie]

Very interesting reply to the OP

 

Even if the explanation you have given is justifiable (in my eyes its not) If I were you and I am not I would not want to share this MM with his wife. I would be telling him you have to pick her or me or I am gone.

 

And while to a point you are right his marriage is not your issue. You do have a moral obligation to do the right thing. I am glad you can sleep at night doing what you are doing. Just my opinion and with that said you are correct everyone's morals are different.

 

This is what I'm talking about. According to who's morals does she have to do the right thing? Her's? Society's? And who decides what is "the right thing"?

 

My morals too say that I have a moral obligation to do the right thing. The right thing according to my morals. Which is what I am doing. That is why I have no trouble sleeping at night.

[donnamaybe]

I am guessing that if Jennie married this MM and he met another woman with morals such as she claims to have...well, then I am guessing that Jennie's morals would change.

 

And I am guessing you are RIGHT on the money!

 

And I'm ALSO guessing that she will find out some day how it feels to be on the other end of an A.

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie-Jennie

 

You have used this argument before but the statistics I have found do not support this. According to the site I have linked below (which has broadly similar data compared to other sites I have found), the divorce rate in the US is 54.8%, compared to 44.5% in the country I think you are from. In fact, only one country has a higher divorce rate than the US and that is Sweden at 54.9%.

 

http://www.darndivorce.com/divorce-rates-around-the-world/

 

This discussion is becoming old, Anne. Are you accusing me of lying? I am merely telling my perception of the country I have lived in for the last 50 years.

 

I haven't checked the statistics, but the older the children get the fewer children live with both parents here, that is my experience. Perhaps one explanation could be that common-law marriages are common which would not show up in the statistics. Many people also go through multiple common-law marriages first, then get kids, then decide to get married.

 

Statistics are a very broad measurement as well. The population here is homogeneous, but in the US it is not. I bet if you looked at various groups in the US you would get a very varying divorce rate according to for example religious and racial background.

Edited May 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[califnan]

No sex before, out of, aside of : (((((((((((((((((((Marriage))))))))))))))))))...

[PhoenixRise]

OK I may be contributing to a TJ but now I am curious.

 

Jennie Jennie.

 

What kind of situation are you referring to when you speak of the differing norms about cheating in your country?

 

Are more marriages open and it is just expected that either partner might find a new love at any time?

 

Are EMA just an open secret where the spouse (wife) just looks the other way?

 

Is there a religious component to marriage or is it just a civil matter?

 

Is the gaslighting, lies, and wholesale deception that we here in the US think of when we refer to cheating a part of EMA's in your country?

 

If so, is this acceptable and understood behavior?

 

In your country, is a person's behavior in a marriage or intimate relationship considered to be at all an indicator of their character?

[PhoenixRise]

To answer the original question in the OP, It is never ok to have an affair. I understand some of the reasons people give for entering an affair. But these reasons don't justify the betrayal.

 

If things in the marriage are so bad that you feel your only out is to turn to someone else then make that turn a true 180 and walk away.

 

Wrap it up in as many justifications as you want to, the choice to hold on to your marriage while you actively betray your spouse is self serving in the extreme.

[anne1707]

This discussion is becoming old, Anne. Are you accusing me of lying? I am merely telling my perception of the country I have lived in for the last 50 years.

 

I haven't checked the statistics, but the older the children get the fewer children live with both parents here, that is my experience. Perhaps one explanation could be that common-law marriages are common which would not show up in the statistics. Many people also go through multiple common-law marriages first, then get kids, then decide to get married.

 

Statistics are a very broad measurement as well. The population here is homogeneous, but in the US it is not. I bet if you looked at various groups in the US you would get a very varying divorce rate according to for example religious and racial background.

 

Never accused you of lying!!!!

 

All I said was that divorce is more common in the US than in the country you live in, yet you state that your country has a more accepting attitude towards divorce. The two don't quite add up to to me...

 

Just to add - your perception of your country does not add up to fact just as much as my perception of my country (England and proud inspite of our new prime minister ) does not add up to fact.

[jennie-jennie]

I am guessing that if Jennie married this MM and he met another woman with morals such as she claims to have...well, then I am guessing that Jennie's morals would change.

 

And I am guessing you are RIGHT on the money!

 

And I'm ALSO guessing that she will find out some day how it feels to be on the other end of an A.

 

Donna, have you missed that I have been the BS of two serial cheaters for the majority of my adult life? James, my morals did not change because some of these OW had the same morals that I have. You are confusing a negative outcome with a moral stand point.

[jennie-jennie]

I disagree with both of these points.

 

The OW could do more than encourage him to solve his dilemma. The OW could end the affair.

 

He is not hurting his family alone. The OW is an active partner in the betrayal that is hurting his family.

 

Which once again proves the point that different individuals have different morals. I could of course end the affair, but what reason would I have to put someone else's well being before my own, other than if I considered it morally wrong to be in a relationship with a MM? Since I don't, I see no reason to be altruistic.

[anne1707]

As I said, divorce is common in my country, and considered just one of the experiences in life that children go through and learn from.

 

Yes it is a learning experience but are you trying to imply that in your country it is considered a positive learning experience?

[califnan]

Donna, have you missed that I have been the BS of two serial cheaters for the majority of my adult life? James, my morals did not change because some of these OW had the same morals that I have. You are confusing a negative outcome with a moral stand point.

 

--------------------

 

The BS of two serial cheaters and the OW of at least one cheater.. Just means you may wish to be more selective..

 

Life is precious.. better to be by one's self than be second.

 

Katherine Hepburn: An "independent woman" .. while wasting her life hanging onto the coattails of another's husband ..

[karnak]

Which once again proves the point that different individuals have different morals. I could of course end the affair, but what reason would I have to put someone else's well being before my own, other than if I considered it morally wrong to be in a relationship with a MM? Since I don't, I see no reason to be altruistic.

 

For those of you who took the trouble of reading my last posts (if you still remember them) here is a precise example of what I wrote about.

 

As I grow older life keeps proving me right, time after time.

[You Go Girl]

For those of you who took the trouble of reading my last posts (if you still remember them) here is a precise example of what I wrote about.

 

As I grow older life keeps proving me right, time after time.

 

I don't know the gist of your last posts? Clarify?

 

As for Jennie's situation, since we have switched to focusing on that--

I believe that we are responsible for pain that is caused to others, even if seemingly indirectly.

I don't believe the responsibility falls solely on the MM in this case. I believe we are all responsible for the harm that our actions cause. For example, if I buy clothing that is made in a sweat shop full of underpaid child labor, am I responsible? I am not attached directly to the sweat shop..yes I am responsible.

If I eat a rare endangered species at a restaurant, am I responsible although I am not the one who went fishing? Yes.

What I consume, be it clothing, food, or another man, affects others. I can't pretend I am somehow detached from the consequences of MY actions on the world.

But then, I'm rather Buddhist in this type of thinking. Others detach themselves from the harm they contribute to, but it doesn't make the facts of the matter disappear. To me, all is connected, and I certainly can't ignore the obvious connections I have to those things I affect, whether harmful of beneficial.

[jennie-jennie]

Never accused you of lying!!!!

 

All I said was that divorce is more common in the US than in the country you live in, yet you state that your country has a more accepting attitude towards divorce. The two don't quite add up to to me...

 

Just to add - your perception of your country does not add up to fact just as much as my perception of my country (England and proud inspite of our new prime minister ) does not add up to fact.

 

What would be interesting is to compare the given reasons for divorce in the two countries. I bet there are a lot more in my country who would openly state the reason to be a new love.

[jennie-jennie]

Yes it is a learning experience but are you trying to imply that in your country it is considered a positive learning experience?

 

It is of course not one to strive after, but good might come out of it.

 

I have warned my MM that his desire to keep his family intact will most likely lead to him raising his children to be WS, BS and OW/OM when they are adults. They do not have an example set for them what to do when the object of your love shifts from your spouse to a new partner. If the alternative is an affair, a divorce is to prefer in my opinion.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't know the gist of your last posts? Clarify?

 

As for Jennie's situation, since we have switched to focusing on that--

I believe that we are responsible for pain that is caused to others, even if seemingly indirectly.

I don't believe the responsibility falls solely on the MM in this case. I believe we are all responsible for the harm that our actions cause. For example, if I buy clothing that is made in a sweat shop full of underpaid child labor, am I responsible? I am not attached directly to the sweat shop..yes I am responsible.

If I eat a rare endangered species at a restaurant, am I responsible although I am not the one who went fishing? Yes.

What I consume, be it clothing, food, or another man, affects others. I can't pretend I am somehow detached from the consequences of MY actions on the world.

But then, I'm rather Buddhist in this type of thinking. Others detach themselves from the harm they contribute to, but it doesn't make the facts of the matter disappear. To me, all is connected, and I certainly can't ignore the obvious connections I have to those things I affect, whether harmful of beneficial.

 

I can choose to buy clothes in another store, I can choose to eat in another restaurant, but I can not choose whom I love.

[bananalaffytaffy]

I can choose to buy clothes in another store, I can choose to eat in another restaurant, but I can not choose whom I love.

Respectfully, if we continue the argument that you can't choose who you love- if you fell in love with a 12 year old (just for the sake of argument), would you act on that love, since you are entitled to love who you wish and can't choose whom to love?

 

I see your point, but there are a lot of people who fall in love with others that they shouldn't, yet they choose not to act on that love. I don't know if that's boundaries or morals or what. I guess a person's morals form their boundaries?

 

Why do some choose to cross a line and others don't?

[Maxxx]

I can choose to buy clothes in another store, I can choose to eat in another restaurant, but I can not choose whom I love.

 

 

To be frank I don't know how you could be in love with someone who is not honest to start with he is cheating on his wife with you so he is not being honest with said wife......... ie. what makes you think he is being honest with you about anything?

 

I am sorry that you have been hurt so badly that you feel its ok to keep doing what has been done to you in the past....

[Ann_Igma]

I can choose to buy clothes in another store, I can choose to eat in another restaurant, but I can not choose whom I love.

 

I completely agree that you can't choose who you feel love for. Where I disagree is that I think you *can* very much choose whether or not you act upon those feelings.

 

I'm not saying it's easy to ignore those feelings, because it's incredibly hard. But, it's definitely possible.