When is it ok to have an affair?

[JamesM]

Most everyone who is in an affair or who has had an affair can gives reasons why it was okay for them or the married person that was their AP.

 

Most everyone who has been betrayed can tell you why that person had no reasons of justification for having an affair.

 

The person you are referring to is in an affair and needs to rationalize such behavior.

 

Having given many reasons why someone would find themselves in an affair and being told that I have tried to justify affairs, I still cannot see why an affair is good based on someone's relative standard. My guess is that breaking a commitment or contract is being considered okay if the other person in the marriage is somehow perceived not to be upholding his or her end of the contract.

 

But that is faulty logic. Marriage is not conditional. The vow does not state that "I will love and stay committed to you as long as I perceive you to be doing the same." Instead it is "I will love and cherish you as long as we both shall live."

 

And even as I type this, I need to reread it myself as a reminder that while I can give reasons why I may end up in an affair, it cannot be called "okay."

Edited May 11, 2010 by JamesM

[jennie-jennie]

Ok, let me put it this way... When is it ok to cheat on your spouse, or be involved with a person that is cheating on their spouse. I gather you know what I mean by "be involved"

 

The post I was referring to that started this thread said that she felt she was free to love whomever she chose to love. Why is it okay when that person is committed to another person?

 

Perhaps I titled the thread wrong. What really intrigued me was the statement that morals are "relative, not absolute". I was more interested in how that related to affairs and how she justified her affair.

 

From Wikipedia:

"Moral relativism may be any of several descriptive, meta-ethical, or normative positions regarding the differences in moral or ethical judgments between different people and cultures."

 

As quoted above, morals may differ between people and cultures, which is very evident to me since I am not from the dominating US culture on LS. Some people believe morals are absolute, I do not. I go by my own sense of moral.

 

Bananalaffytaffy, I am the poster you are referring to so I will try to answer your questions.

 

I am a human being. I have a right to love another human being. The man I love loves me. Unfortunately he has "prior legal commitments" (borrowing FA's words here). That does not diminish the right I have to love and be loved by this man.

 

Do I have a right to be in a relationship with him? My morals do not require me to keep away from another woman's husband if we are in love and he is willingly participating in a relationship with me. His marriage is not my problem, it is his.

 

I am not lying to or deceiving anyone. I never went behind the back of my now exSO. I told him I was having a parallel relationship with MM. Eventually I ended my relationship with my SO. Thus I was never unfaithful or dishonest to my SO. I have done what was required of me.

 

I would not do what my MM does. But I am not him. I encourage him to make a decision, to not keep me secret, to tell his wife, to go to IC, but I can not do it for him.

 

I guess the difference in perspective between me and many of the LS posters is mainly that I am responsible for my actions, not my MM's actions, and he is responsible for keeping his vows, not I.

 

Marriage is not as highly respected in my culture as in the US. Most kids have divorced parents. Most people have been married or in common-law marriages multiple times. A marriage or a relationship is not really expected to last a lifetime here.

 

I never imagined that I would be in a long term affair. In my world you choose. In my world you divorce if you are in love with someone else. Apparently even my MM's morals are different than mine. Which just goes to show that morals differ between people and cultures.

Edited May 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[JamesM]

Do I have a right to be in a relationship with him? My morals do not require me to keep away from another woman's husband, if we are in love and he is willingly participating in a relationship with me. His marriage is not my problem, it is his.

 

I agree with this. You do not need to be concerned with his marriage. It is his own vow that he chooses to break or not break.

 

As for you having a right to be in a relationship with him, I don't question that. I would wonder what you would think if you were his wife. Do you think his wife should be as free to choose to love him as you are? Perhaps if she knew what you know, then she may let you have him? Wouldn't you prefer that?

 

Do your morals allow you to hurt another man's family? Do your morals allow you to do what you want despite how it may affect someone else? If your MM's morals allow him to have multiple affairs, then are you okay with that?

 

Just asking.

 

Apparently even my MM's morals are different than mine. Which just goes to show that morals differ between people and cultures.

 

No, if someone breaks "morals," then that does not mean that the morals are okay for him. Based on that, if I choose to kill someone then it is okay because my morals tell me it is okay.

 

Rules and laws and morals are set. People break them. That does not mean that the they are relative.

[bentnotbroken]

Let me see....maybe it is okay when....no that wouldn't make it okay. Maybe when the BS.....no that wouldn't work either. Hmmmm let me think on this and get back to you .....never mind. It's never okay to lie, steal and deceive for whatever reason that you need to go in that direction.

[jennie-jennie]

Just to show how relative morals can be between different cultures, I want to relate an example from my own country.

 

In one of the highlights of the TV season - a national song contest that is watched by a majority of the population - a song was sung by the comedian in the show. He had devoted it to the new girlfriend of the host of the show. He was pretending to be in love with her and putting it out there that he would be a much better choice than her new boyfriend.

 

This performance, which was very popular, made the population of my country aware that the host was indeed in a new relationship with another popular TV celebrity, and that their relationship had started as an affair between coworkers, which had led to them both leaving their marriages. At least one of them had small children.

 

Nobody even blinked. This is just how it goes in my country. Many relationships here start with people meeting while in prior engagements. The TV celebrities got a bit of free spotlight. So what?

[reboot]

So what?

 

So what's fine for your culture isn't necessarily fine in other cultures. You have the right to your beliefs, but so do the rest of us. You always use this argument. Look at it from the other direction sometime.

[Maxxx]

From Wikipedia:

"Moral relativism may be any of several descriptive, meta-ethical, or normative positions regarding the differences in moral or ethical judgments between different people and cultures."

 

As quoted above, morals may differ between people and cultures, which is very evident to me since I am not from the dominating US culture on LS. Some people believe morals are absolute, I do not. I go by my own sense of moral.

 

Bananalaffytaffy, I am the poster you are referring to so I will try to answer your questions.

 

I am a human being. I have a right to love another human being. The man I love loves me. Unfortunately he has "prior legal commitments" (borrowing FA's words here). That does not diminish the right I have to love and be loved by this man.

 

Do I have a right to be in a relationship with him? My morals do not require me to keep away from another woman's husband if we are in love and he is willingly participating in a relationship with me. His marriage is not my problem, it is his.

 

I am not lying to or deceiving anyone. I never went behind the back of my now exSO. I told him I was having a parallel relationship with MM. Eventually I ended my relationship with my SO. Thus I was never unfaithful or dishonest to my SO. I have done what was required of me.

 

I would not do what my MM does. But I am not him. I encourage him to make a decision, to not keep me secret, to tell his wife, to go to IC, but I can not do it for him.

 

I guess the difference in perspective between me and many of the LS posters is mainly that I am responsible for my actions, not my MM's actions, and he is responsible for keeping his vows, not I.

 

Marriage is not as highly respected in my culture as in the US. Most kids have divorced parents. Most people have been married or in common-law marriages multiple times. A marriage or a relationship is not really expected to last a lifetime here.

 

I never imagined that I would be in a long term affair. In my world you choose. In my world you divorce if you are in love with someone else. Apparently even my MM's morals are different than mine. Which just goes to show that morals differ between people and cultures.

 

Very interesting reply to the OP

 

Even if the explanation you have given is justifiable (in my eyes its not) If I were you and I am not I would not want to share this MM with his wife. I would be telling him you have to pick her or me or I am gone.

 

And while to a point you are right his marriage is not your issue. You do have a moral obligation to do the right thing. I am glad you can sleep at night doing what you are doing. Just my opinion and with that said you are correct everyone's morals are different.

[jennie-jennie]

So what's fine for your culture isn't necessarily fine in other cultures. You have the right to your beliefs, but so do the rest of us. You always use this argument. Look at it from the other direction sometime.

 

Of course. I was just trying to show that morals are relative, not absolute. That does not mean that my morals are correct for you, nor your morals correct for me. It means that they differ between individuals and cultures.

[grogster]

Whether an affair is ever justified depends on whether one is a participant or observer or victim. One's role in the affair drama influences one's judgment about whether the behavior is justified.

 

When I was head-over-heels in love with my MW, I believed that love and passion justified my harmful behavior. Love is not only "blind." Love sometimes "blinds."

 

When passion cools, the affair ends (and is discovered) and the wreakage is assessed, one becomes much less inclined to believe that his or her affair was ever ok, right, permissible or justified. When the "bubble" finally burts, so do the comforting illusions.

 

Love is an H bomb is romantic affairs, and the marriage, ground zero. Ironically, we obliterate those who love us (i.e., spouse and children).

 

An affair is better explained than defended.

[reboot]

Of course. I was just trying to show that morals are relative, not absolute. That does not mean that my morals are correct for you, nor your morals correct for me. It means that they differ between individuals and cultures.

 

And I was just trying to point out that most of us already understand this.

[JamesM]

Just to show how relative morals can be between different cultures, I want to relate an example from my own country.

 

 

Nobody even blinked. This is just how it goes in my country. Many relationships here start with people meeting while in prior engagements. The TV celebrities got a bit of free spotlight. So what?

 

What becomes acceptable does not define morals. Many things become acceptable or rather do not cause a stir...yet that doesn't make them morally right.

 

A vow is made and is not to be broken. While I agree, you did not make that vow, your MM did. Even if he thinks it is okay to break it and even if the crowds look the other way, he still broke a vow.

 

This alone should show you how trustworthy he is. His word is only as good as he wants it to be. How will he be any different with you?

[xxoo]

This performance, which was very popular, made the population of my country aware that the host was indeed in a new relationship with another popular TV celebrity, and that their relationship had started as an affair between coworkers, which had led to them both leaving their marriages. At least one of them had small children.

 

Nobody even blinked. This is just how it goes in my country. Many relationships here start with people meeting while in prior engagements. The TV celebrities got a bit of free spotlight. So what?

 

I bet the kids blinked

[JamesM]

Whether an affair is ever justified depends on whether one is a participant or observer or victim. One's role in the affair drama influences one's judgment about whether the behavior is justified.

 

When I was head-over-heels in love with my MW, I believed that love and passion justified my harmful behavior. Love is not only "blind." Love sometimes "blinds."

 

When passion cools, the affair ends (and is discovered) and the wreakage is assessed, one becomes much less inclined to believe that his or her affair was ever ok, right, permissible or justified. When the "bubble" finally burts, so do the comforting illusions.

 

Love is an H bomb is romantic affairs, and the marriage, ground zero. Ironically, we obliterate those who love us (i.e., spouse and children).

 

An affair is better explained than defended.

 

Well said.

[bananalaffytaffy]

Thank you for responding. Since you have, I have some questions.

I am a human being. I have a right to love another human being. The man I love loves me. Unfortunately he has "prior legal commitments" (borrowing FA's words here). That does not diminish the right I have to love and be loved by this man.

Where does this "right" come from? You decided you had this right? He did? God did? Who decided that you had this right? I'm not questioning your right, I'm just trying to understand.

 

Do I have a right to be in a relationship with him? My morals do not require me to keep away from another woman's husband if we are in love and he is willingly participating in a relationship with me. His marriage is not my problem, it is his.

So does this mean a ONS with him would not be your right or acceptable to you? Or is the A justified because of the love?

 

I am not lying to or deceiving anyone. I never went behind the back of my now exSO. I told him I was having a parallel relationship with MM. Eventually I ended my relationship with my SO. Thus I was never unfaithful or dishonest to my SO. I have done what was required of me.

Required by who? Society? You? Your SO?

 

Marriage is not as highly respected in my culture as in the US. Most kids have divorced parents. Most people have been married or in common-law marriages multiple times. A marriage or a relationship is not really expected to last a lifetime here.

Are affairs looked down upon in your country, or are they more accepted than they are in the US?

 

I never imagined that I would be in a long term affair. In my world you choose. In my world you divorce if you are in love with someone else. Apparently even my MM's morals are different than mine. Which just goes to show that morals differ between people and cultures.

So do you feel like you've changed your morals to be with him?

[grogster]

Well said.

 

Thanks, James. I stole my last line from your excellent post.

[bananalaffytaffy]

Very interesting reply to the OP

 

Even if the explanation you have given is justifiable (in my eyes its not) If I were you and I am not I would not want to share this MM with his wife. I would be telling him you have to pick her or me or I am gone.

 

And while to a point you are right his marriage is not your issue. You do have a moral obligation to do the right thing. I am glad you can sleep at night doing what you are doing. Just my opinion and with that said you are correct everyone's morals are different.

This is what I'm talking about. According to who's morals does she have to do the right thing? Her's? Society's? And who decides what is "the right thing"?

[reboot]

I don't really understand why people continue to argue over this issue. Everyone has their stance set in stone. No one is ever going to change their mind or admit being wrong.

 

Or at least, not until something happens in their real life that makes them feel differently.

[anne1707]

Marriage is not as highly respected in my culture as in the US. Most kids have divorced parents. Most people have been married or in common-law marriages multiple times. A marriage or a relationship is not really expected to last a lifetime here.

 

 

Jennie-Jennie

 

You have used this argument before but the statistics I have found do not support this. According to the site I have linked below (which has broadly similar data compared to other sites I have found), the divorce rate in the US is 54.8%, compared to 44.5% in the country I think you are from. In fact, only one country has a higher divorce rate than the US and that is Sweden at 54.9%.

 

http://www.darndivorce.com/divorce-rates-around-the-world/

[bananalaffytaffy]

And I was just trying to point out that most of us already understand this.

I didn't know this. I was always under the assumption that most people thought affairs were wrong. I had no idea this was more readily accepted in other countries.

 

That's why I started the thread- to learn!

[JamesM]

 

Or at least, not until something happens in their real life that makes them feel differently.

 

I am guessing that if Jennie married this MM and he met another woman with morals such as she claims to have...well, then I am guessing that Jennie's morals would change.

[bananalaffytaffy]

I don't really understand why people continue to argue over this issue. Everyone has their stance set in stone. No one is ever going to change their mind or admit being wrong.

 

Or at least, not until something happens in their real life that makes them feel differently.

I didn't know we were arguing. I was hoping to have a spirited discussion about morals in relation to infidelity.

[jennie-jennie]

I agree with this. You do not need to be concerned with his marriage. It is his own vow that he chooses to break or not break.

 

As for you having a right to be in a relationship with him, I don't question that. I would wonder what you would think if you were his wife. Do you think his wife should be as free to choose to love him as you are? Perhaps if she knew what you know, then she may let you have him? Wouldn't you prefer that?

I have encouraged my MM to tell his wife the truth. She has the right to be as loved as I am. I have been the BS of two serial cheaters, so I am well aware of how hurtful that is. But I can not do more than encourage my MM to solve his dilemma.

Do your morals allow you to hurt another man's family? Do your morals allow you to do what you want despite how it may affect someone else?

I am not hurting another man's family. He is doing that all by himself by not choosing one woman. As I said, divorce is common in my country, and considered just one of the experiences in life that children go through and learn from.

If your MM's morals allow him to have multiple affairs, then are you okay with that?

 

Just asking.

No, I would be hurt by that, just as I was hurt by being the BS of serial cheaters. I also considered it cheating when I was sexually exclusive to my MM and he was yet not sexually exclusive to me. Yet another relative moral.

No, if someone breaks "morals," then that does not mean that the morals are okay for him. Based on that, if I choose to kill someone then it is okay because my morals tell me it is okay.

I do believe my MM considers it morally wrong to have an affair, but he considers it even more morally wrong to hurt his wife by divorcing her and breaking up his home. This is where his and my morals differ.

 

Rules and laws and morals are set. People break them. That does not mean that the they are relative.

So you believe in absolute morals. I do not.

[xxoo]

I have been the BS of two serial cheaters, so I am well aware of how hurtful that is. But I can not do more than encourage my MM to solve his dilemma.

 

I am not hurting another man's family. He is doing that all by himself by not choosing one woman. .

 

I disagree with both of these points.

 

The OW could do more than encourage him to solve his dilemma. The OW could end the affair.

 

He is not hurting his family alone. The OW is an active partner in the betrayal that is hurting his family.

[jennie-jennie]

Very interesting reply to the OP

 

Even if the explanation you have given is justifiable (in my eyes its not) If I were you and I am not I would not want to share this MM with his wife. I would be telling him you have to pick her or me or I am gone.

 

That is not an option to me. My bond to my MM is too strong. That is why I never recommend NC until you are absolutely sure you are done and prepared to end the relationship forever.

[jennie-jennie]

What becomes acceptable does not define morals. Many things become acceptable or rather do not cause a stir...yet that doesn't make them morally right.

 

A vow is made and is not to be broken. While I agree, you did not make that vow, your MM did. Even if he thinks it is okay to break it and even if the crowds look the other way, he still broke a vow.

This alone should show you how trustworthy he is. His word is only as good as he wants it to be. How will he be any different with you?

 

The problem I have with my MM is quite the opposite. I don't like that he feels bound by vows which he now longer can stand by.

 

I would be very reluctant to marry my MM, given that I have seen how bound he is by his word.

 

We have an agreement that we are sexually exclusive, but we also have an agreement that we can end the exclusivity at any time by telling that we no longer wish this. That to me is honesty. Honesty is worth much more to me than keeping a vow.