How I got MY wife into sex

[mem11363]

HV,

Your well thought out response makes sense to me.

 

Let me ask you: Do you feel she has treated you even close to fairly? Have you discussed with her your view of the way she handled this situation?

 

Because it feels like:

- She hid the problem from you for over a decade WHILE

- At the same time inflicting serious distress on you without explanation

 

It sounds like she has taken no ownership of what that did to YOU. And that instead she and her counselor are solely worried about her.

 

Sorry man - you don't get to build a highly successful career, working with intelligent people (which she has done), and in parallel claim you had no clue as to how badly you were hurting your partner. That won't ever wash.

 

You, your injuries and your needs continue to be totally deprioitized. That is only going to stop when you demand it stop.

 

Mem, read this

 

"If you think like that, and put up road blocks in your brain, then you will never solve the problem.

 

The second you say "I can't do that because........" You're mind stops trying to figure out a solution and starts focusing on reasons why you can't do it, it's trying to justify your feelings.

 

I have trained my mind to think of every solution to a problem, and to never say "I can't do that because...."

 

I also don't let set backs destroy my plan. You think Richard Branson never had any set backs, or failures? Do you think he easily gives up on soemething just because someone tells him "he can't"

 

It's got everything to do with you, and your mind set, and nothing to do with her. She acts like that because you allow it to happen, and you're brain is trained to just give up with her."

 

Emphasis mine. Apparently there is no such thing as depression or the effect of past history or borderline abuse having any effect on a partner's sexuality. It's all down to what we do. By playing hard to get and bulls**tting about how other women can't keep their hands off us, all the problems will evaporate. A century of psychoanalysis, decades of development in psychotherapy and all the work that has been done on brain chemistry was a total waste of time, and every medical practitioner that buys into it is wasting their time and ours. That entire field of medical work can all be collapsed into the three lines above. Perhaps a similar approach will have 100% effective results in the treatment of PTSD in war veterans. Try reading the above about, for instance, pneumonia and see if it sounds like hooey. The statement above is profoundly insulting to the millions of people world-wide who struggle with psychological problems, and if it sounds like I'm angry about it, there might be a reason for that. This is one stage above telling those with mental health issues to "pull themselves together" and expecting it to suddenly resolve everything.

 

 

 

Others here seem to take the view that it IS an either or situation. That health issues affect sexuality do not exist and that it entirely comes down to the attitude of the other partner - that will to power can achieve anything. Let me point out, very clearly, that this is NOT the case.

[giotto]

well, I have managed to get a response and my wife acknowledged it was her fault. I had to pack my bags to get this, though. HV doesn't even want to consider divorce. Although I entirely understand his point of view, without a real threat he won't get anywhere. Now he is stuck waiting until his wife sorts herself out in therapy. Without sex. And it could take months. My wife needs therapy too. If she did go, we would be without sex for months too. After all these years of little sex, would I be prepared to wait? I don't have an answer to that. Having said that, sometimes it's really difficult to draw the line: to what extent it was my wife's (or HV's for that matter) selfishness and to what degree it was her issues. We can look at the result, i.e. my suffering, but in case of psychological problems it's very difficult to know where the truth lies.

[LittleTiger]

My W was on libido killing drugs and I still managed to get sex 2-3 times a week. So whats the difference between us then? It's my attitude that's different.

 

I've been following your thread tnttim with minor interest. I say minor because I think most of what you say comes from a very narrow minded perspective ie yours and, for some reason, you seem unable to consider the vast differences in human beings. My interest is really in the responses from people like HV and giotto because I can empathise with their pain.

 

The difference between you and men like HV and giotto, is not your attitude - it's your wives.

 

There's nothing wrong with having a positive attitude as you do and even manipulating your situation to your advantage if your wife is the type or in the right mind-set to fall for it. I can assure you that your tactics will not work on every woman. I, for one, would almost certainly have told you to 'go to h*ll' - and I'm a woman who loves sex!

 

We're all different tnttim. If any man here chooses not to take your advice, I don't blame them. I wouldn't either. Even if you were a consultant psychiatrist or a psychologist (which judging by your understanding of depression I am 100% sure you're not) whether they choose to act on advice given here or anywhere else really depends on whether or not they are ready to change themselves or their circumstances.

 

People only change when their current situation is no longer tolerable - that rule applies in, dare I say it, pretty much every area of our lives. Human beings are generally a 'steady' species. Most of us don't like change and when it's forced on us we push hard against it. We change only when we have to because of external forces eg losing a job, or when we choose to because we reach a point where we've 'had enough'.

 

Giotto, HV or any other man on this board who comes here time and time again, going over the same stuff and apparently (as far as you can tell) doing nothing about it is actually doing whatever he can at this point in time. All of them will make a decision to change at some point - whether it's when they get their heads turned by another woman, or when their wives refuse sex completely or when the kids leave home or whatever. It isn't up to anyone here to tell them what to do or when to do it.

 

They also have the advantage of knowing their wives - which you, and the rest of us, obviously don't. Every woman is different - we think differently, we behave differently and we respond differently to our partners.

 

The only control we (free people) have in this world is over ourselves and our own actions. We have no control over other (free) human beings. If your way works with your wife - good for you - but please stop assuming that one size fits all. It doesn't.

Edited February 13, 2011 by LittleTiger

[giotto]

I suppose some human beings can be manipulated more than others. I'm pleased that tnttim and mem have managed to "tame" their wives. My wife is not tamable. She might be selfish and cruel, but she won't be manipulated into anything. I have tried tnttim's approach. After a few times, she would just tease me and say: you are trying your tricks again... I'm not stupid...

[xxoo]

I can assure you that your tactics will not work on every woman. I, for one, would almost certainly have told you to 'go to h*ll' - and I'm a woman who loves sex! .

 

I'd most likely have told him to "go **** yourself".....'cause he wouldn't be ******* me after acting like that

 

But tnttim--weren't you inspired to try this approach because of your wife's affair? That doesn't sound like a woman with no libido.....

[LittleTiger]

I have tried tnttim's approach. After a few times, she would just tease me and say: you are trying your tricks again... I'm not stupid...

 

Well, she's a lot more polite than I would be, that's for sure.

 

I'd most likely have told him to "go **** yourself".....'cause he wouldn't be ******* me after acting like that

 

xxoo, I'm shocked!

 

Though we're definitely thinking along the same lines!

[Honorable_Venerable]

I'd most likely have told him to "go **** yourself".....'cause he wouldn't be ******* me after acting like that

Didn't you and Little Tiger get the memo? If your H's try this, you will be INCAPABLE of resisting. As women, you are programmed to want your men to act like this, and do what they want you to do. I'm so glad I have my big umbrella with me, the flying pigs make a right mess of your clothes!

[mem11363]

HV,

I do agree that with some women - it is very hard for their male partners to "create" passion. No question that I personally struggle with that. And I reluctantly accept that even when I do the normal "stuff" that works best - it is about a 50/50 proposition as far as creating genuine desire/lust.

 

I do NOT complain, whine or express distress over this as it is not something she directly controls. I do however directly address "bad" behavior associated with sex. About a week ago - we came home from racquetball - it was still plenty early to connect and I did want to. But she got on the bed and started doing some abs workout and I realized she was simply looking to pick an activity to "avoid" taking a shower and then having sex. I offered to get her work out mat from upstairs and went to find it.

 

When I came down I directly said - do your abs - take a shower and lets watch an episode of X and crash. She said ok - and that is what we did.

 

A few days later something about "that" night came up. She said "we got home from rball and were really tired so we didn't have sex, and just went to bed". And I got really mad. I said it is insulting that you seem to think the guy who always reads your affect before initiating anything is too stupid to read an anxious "please don't ask for sex tonight" vibe. You weren't tired - you just very strongly were averse to having sex. You worked out for a good 10-20 minutes. Don't distort actual events in a self serving way as you are better than that and it shows a frightening lack of respect for me.

 

And really who cares about whether she does/does not want to on a given night. On a normal week she does not want to 4-5 nights out of seven. Some weeks it is 6 nights out of seven. Her signals are soft, yet they are always clear to me so I found this whole deception routine disrespectful and I made that clear and pressed home the point.

 

And I really do believe that if you do not address that type issue, it becomes the primary toxin in your marriage. Because it is deliberate, self serving, dishonestly. And it is hurtful to YOU.

 

I get that your W is a victim. When are you and she and the therapist going to address the fact that your W victimized YOU?

 

 

Didn't you and Little Tiger get the memo? If your H's try this, you will be INCAPABLE of resisting. As women, you are programmed to want your men to act like this, and do what they want you to do. I'm so glad I have my big umbrella with me, the flying pigs make a right mess of your clothes!

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV,

I do agree that with some women - it is very hard for their male partners to "create" passion. No question that I personally struggle with that. And I reluctantly accept that even when I do the normal "stuff" that works best - it is about a 50/50 proposition as far as creating genuine desire/lust.

 

 

And I really do believe that if you do not address that type issue, it becomes the primary toxin in your marriage. Because it is deliberate, self serving, dishonestly. And it is hurtful to YOU.

 

I get that your W is a victim. When are you and she and the therapist going to address the fact that your W victimized YOU?

 

Mem, I've trimmed the middle bit about the racketball game, simply for space.

 

There are (as is not infrequently the case here:D) several things going on in one thread. Hence, a bit of clarification.

 

1) Certain advice given here derives from the CR James school of how to get women to do what you want. This is based on the premise that if you pretent you a have secret, or know some gossip that suggests a certain thing, women are pathologically incapable of not trying to find out the secret, or cannot resist acting on the gossip. Tell them that other women think you're sex on a stick, SHE has to want you because her inability to resist gossip follow / the crowd says she can't resist. Tell her that gossip / surveys say a certain thing is what men want and she'll do it. Herein the message to XXOO and Little Tiger.

 

2) My comments regarding the devaluing of the impact of mental health issues and professional mental health expertise derive not just from my experiences with my W, but having had the unfortunate opportunity to see how clinical depression (and in one case PTSD) has crushed the lives of friends and colleagues who were intelligent, warm, vibrant people, and became shells of what they were. Belittling what has happened to them, and the efforts of those who try to help them is profoundly insulting on a broad level - the equivalent in my mind of insulting the physically disabled.

 

3) And my wife. Whilst my issues with my marriage intersect with 1 and 2 above on some levels, they are also separate and distinct. The therapist is moving her into the area of starting to understand the damage that she did to our relationship. To be honest, I think that the therapist has rattled along onto this pretty quickly, given the amount of baggage. It must be quite difficult, to deal with this in such a way as to not turn her from victim to villain, and set back the whole course of the treatment.

 

We have had a long talk about it. She admits that she can't quantify the damage it did, but admits that it must have. She says she realises that SHE has a lot of work to do, not simply from the perspective of the physical side of sex, but in terms of how her mindset affected our relationship (and by extension me). Small steps maybe, but steps.

 

Previously, my view was that there was very little point in shouting my victimhood from the rooftops for two reasons.

 

First, she was the psychosexual equivalent of a person with both legs in a cast, and my complaining that she couldn't ballroom dance was of no value when the priority was to simply get her walking.

 

Second, in the previous "regime", my explaining to her that I was a victim would simply have re-enforced her view that what she was doing WORKED, and frankly I don't think that would have helped. She needed encouragement to act like that like I need a third shoe.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Honorable_Venerable
clarity

[giotto]

HV,

And I got really mad. I said it is insulting that you seem to think the guy who always reads your affect before initiating anything is too stupid to read an anxious "please don't ask for sex tonight" vibe. You weren't tired - you just very strongly were averse to having sex. You worked out for a good 10-20 minutes. Don't distort actual events in a self serving way as you are better than that and it shows a frightening lack of respect for me.

 

That's what I used to do. I used to get mad when she treated me that way. Guess what? That behaviour put my wife off sex even more. She said she associated sex to something negative and she hated that. She still does. She is still behaving the same. Two weeks today and finally last night she said we would have sex tonight.

 

So, I'm happy for HV, because his wife is in therapy. My wife recognised her faults too and what impact her issues have had on our relationship, but she can't make herself seeking therapy. She'e learned to cope with them and I suppose I'm not more important than her mental state. When pressed for sex on top of her issues, she used to withdraw and break down. Her unwillingness to seek therapy is what is breaking the camel's back. I will have to go after the kids grow up. Sad, but I have run out of ideas.

[tnttim]

But tnttim--weren't you inspired to try this approach because of your wife's affair? That doesn't sound like a woman with no libido.....

 

That's why I tried it, the problem was with me not her. If I was like the other 2 I would have just kept blaming her, and her low sex drive. I opened my eyes, and my mind to the fact that I was the problem.

 

For the record, I don't just say "hey honey this girl thinks I'm hot, now let's have sex." It doesn't work like that. I spend 90% of the time building her up with compliments of how smart she is, or what a great mom she is. I also found out she really loves writing, so I support her in any way I can when she writes now. I also have convinced her that writing is sexy because it takes a lot of creativity and knowledge. So now when she writes, she feels sexy. I will compliment her on her looks very rarely now, because she wants to be seen as a whole person, not just a body.

 

I also put her in check when she needs to be put in check, hell we all need to be put in check once in a while. Now, since I don't complain about everything, when I do complain, she listens.

[tnttim]

HV, I agree, complaining, or stating "I'm a victim of what you did" will produce the opposite effect in her. She has to have remorse for what she did first, actually she has to own her mistakes first, then remorse, then she can address the victims.

 

They do this is AA, or NA. One of the last steps is asking for forgiveness, because all the other steps need to happen before this step truly means something.

 

HV is doing the right thing by letting his W sort out her own problems. I think if he interferes, even in a good way, it will hamper the process.

[mem11363]

G,

Actually the night in question, despite feeling insulted I just explicitly let her off the hook. In hindsight - this actually is quite humorous - I am pretty certain I now understand her dilemma. On a "standard" night she would just say, "do you mind if we don't connect tonight?". But LMAO we had just got back from rball which is:

:( "her version" of sex - yes indeed her physiological response to rball - the dopamine high etc. is like a male response to sex, or a male video game players response to WoW

 

So - ROTFL - she was conflicted. I had just spent an hour plus providing her with her equivalent of sex and she felt obligated to respond in kind. This wasn't about whether I could "read" her, this was a guilt problem. Oh well - guess I am going to have to tell her that I don't "expect" sex just because I scratch her rball itch.

 

Now that I think about it - she really does feel obligated. We had 5 nights in a row of rball and 5 nights in a row of .... - and it has been years since we had 5 nights in a row of ....

 

So G - you are right. I should have figured this out instead of taking it to mean she thinks I am an "idiot" though there are days when you would have trouble convincing me otherwise....

 

As for why she feels "obligated" to do something for me after we play - it is because I am so much better in rball than she is that she is convinced it cannot be that much fun for me.

 

 

 

That's what I used to do. I used to get mad when she treated me that way. Guess what? That behaviour put my wife off sex even more. She said she associated sex to something negative and she hated that. She still does. She is still behaving the same. Two weeks today and finally last night she said we would have sex tonight.

 

So, I'm happy for HV, because his wife is in therapy. My wife recognised her faults too and what impact her issues have had on our relationship, but she can't make herself seeking therapy. She'e learned to cope with them and I suppose I'm not more important than her mental state. When pressed for sex on top of her issues, she used to withdraw and break down. Her unwillingness to seek therapy is what is breaking the camel's back. I will have to go after the kids grow up. Sad, but I have run out of ideas.

[mem11363]

This makes perfect sense. It really does.

 

As for the CR James stuff and other advice like that I apply a very simple filter to it. "If I would NOT want someone doing it to me, I don't do it to them".

 

As for what I actually "do" in the day to day - I consider it fair and transparent. In one sentence: "I am less loving when I feel less loved, or openly deprioritized".

 

 

 

Mem, I've trimmed the middle bit about the racketball game, simply for space.

 

There are (as is not infrequently the case here:D) several things going on in one thread. Hence, a bit of clarification.

 

1) Certain advice given here derives from the CR James school of how to get women to do what you want. This is based on the premise that if you pretent you a have secret, or know some gossip that suggests a certain thing, women are pathologically incapable of not trying to find out the secret, or cannot resist acting on the gossip. Tell them that other women think you're sex on a stick, SHE has to want you because her inability to resist gossip follow / the crowd says she can't resist. Tell her that gossip / surveys say a certain thing is what men want and she'll do it. Herein the message to XXOO and Little Tiger.

 

2) My comments regarding the devaluing of the impact of mental health issues and professional mental health expertise derive not just from my experiences with my W, but having had the unfortunate opportunity to see how clinical depression (and in one case PTSD) has crushed the lives of friends and colleagues who were intelligent, warm, vibrant people, and became shells of what they were. Belittling what has happened to them, and the efforts of those who try to help them is profoundly insulting on a broad level - the equivalent in my mind of insulting the physically disabled.

 

3) And my wife. Whilst my issues with my marriage intersect with 1 and 2 above on some levels, they are also separate and distinct. The therapist is moving her into the area of starting to understand the damage that she did to our relationship. To be honest, I think that the therapist has rattled along onto this pretty quickly, given the amount of baggage. It must be quite difficult, to deal with this in such a way as to not turn her from victim to villain, and set back the whole course of the treatment.

 

We have had a long talk about it. She admits that she can't quantify the damage it did, but admits that it must have. She says she realises that SHE has a lot of work to do, not simply from the perspective of the physical side of sex, but in terms of how her mindset affected our relationship (and by extension me). Small steps maybe, but steps.

 

Previously, my view was that there was very little point in shouting my victimhood from the rooftops for two reasons.

 

First, she was the psychosexual equivalent of a person with both legs in a cast, and my complaining that she couldn't ballroom dance was of no value when the priority was to simply get her walking.

 

Second, in the previous "regime", my explaining to her that I was a victim would simply have re-enforced her view that what she was doing WORKED, and frankly I don't think that would have helped. She needed encouragement to act like that like I need a third shoe.

[Honorable_Venerable]

This makes perfect sense. It really does.

 

As for the CR James stuff and other advice like that I apply a very simple filter to it. "If I would NOT want someone doing it to me, I don't do it to them".

 

Exactly! You understand that there are among us those who DON'T want to be treated that way, and act accordingly!

 

As for what I actually "do" in the day to day - I consider it fair and transparent. In one sentence: "I am less loving when I feel less loved, or openly deprioritized".

Based on what you have written, I don't think your wife possible claim that you are anything other than totally clear and above board. And it certainly seems to work for you - at least it looks like to works well enough that you feel comfortable enough point out when it doesn't work, as the exception, rather than dwelling on when it does.

[xxoo]

GSo G - you are right. I should have figured this out instead of taking it to mean she thinks I am an "idiot" though there are days when you would have trouble convincing me otherwise.....

 

Glad to read this insight, mem!

 

I read your first post a couple times this am trying to understand your pov (thinking she was disrespectful), when all I saw was that she felt bad for not wanting sex for some reason and was trying to soften the blow out of compassion, and maybe some shame (since she worries about being "that wife")....

[mem11363]

X,

I pride myself on not being "pushy". On any given night I really truly don't care. Then again somehow I am still the "bad guy" because she "believes" that going past 5-6 days creates the likelihood of conflict. I think I am going to have to disprove that theory for her for a while.

 

I actually do see how I am mostly the "bad guy" here based on history.

 

On the bright side, some day I will be older and impotent and she will look at me with great irritation and wonder why I am not "attracted to her" anymore.

 

 

Glad to read this insight, mem!

 

I read your first post a couple times this am trying to understand your pov (thinking she was disrespectful), when all I saw was that she felt bad for not wanting sex for some reason and was trying to soften the blow out of compassion, and maybe some shame (since she worries about being "that wife")....

[xxoo]

On the bright side, some day I will be older and impotent and she will look at me with great irritation and wonder why I am not "attracted to her" anymore.

 

Great that you can appreciate the bright side!

[Floridaman]

X,

I pride myself on not being "pushy". On any given night I really truly don't care. Then again somehow I am still the "bad guy" because she "believes" that going past 5-6 days creates the likelihood of conflict. I think I am going to have to disprove that theory for her for a while.

 

I actually do see how I am mostly the "bad guy" here based on history.

 

On the bright side, some day I will be older and impotent and she will look at me with great irritation and wonder why I am not "attracted to her" anymore.

You may be onto something there.

 

Some women who had low drives and were content with only monthly or less, they suddenly realize what they've missed and 10 years later wake up and try initiating.

 

Only they find their years of constant neglect and witholding and blocking their husband's desires made their husbands lose their drives!!!

Now they cry and have many regrets for the hell they put their innocent partners through.

 

The wife/husband should give in to the other's desires ON A REGULAR BASIS even if he/she "doesn't feel like it" or has a low drive.

 

Why? Bec. spouses are tempted all day at work and in the real world and could easily stray. It's not the other spouse's fault for an affair, but a frigid woman or a woman who rations LM is one that unkowingly could cause her husband to look elsewhere.

[florence of suburbia]

What I appreciate about both Mem and HV right now is they are being responsive to their wives and creating movement and change in their relationships instead of just banging their heads against the wall trying more or less the same approach over and over.

[giotto]

it's great to be responsive... it would be even better if we got a response...

[mem11363]

Flo,

This isn't about sex. In exchange for humoring her rball addiction she is happy to give me sex 3-4 or more times a week. Mechanically excellent sex. The thing is I don't want sex, I want "passion". As for the whole "I want closeness" thing I believe that. She wants that sometimes. I am thinking once a week takes care of "that" for her. But the rest of the week I either want passion or I will accept non-sexual affection.

 

 

What I appreciate about both Mem and HV right now is they are being responsive to their wives and creating movement and change in their relationships instead of just banging their heads against the wall trying more or less the same approach over and over.

[florence of suburbia]

it's great to be responsive... it would be even better if we got a response...

I get that.

 

I've been reading lately about brain chemistry and the drivers behind human sexual attraction, and it does seem that the security and familiarity of modern marriage is a natural dampener for the female sex drive. In some ways modern sex and love *is* a game.

 

It is a game because we have to manufacture the sort of environment that our primitive brains were designed to operate in -- just like we invent games like football to channel our aggression and competition instead of fighting each other to the death. Sports appeal to some of the same aggressive urges that we originally developed to aid our survival. Likewise, we don't have life or death situations driving us to reproduce and so we need to recreate some of that pressure through fantasy and by tweaking our behavior.

 

Strong familial bonds such as parent to child are accompanied by oxytocin, which is the calming chemical produced in a mother's brain when she breastfeeds.

 

Sexual desire is more closely linked to dopamine, which is also the chemical associated with addiction. Dopamine requires an ongoing sense of novelty to provide a reward. Once something gets old and familiar, it produces less of a chemical reaction. That's why people seek out more and more of an addictive drug to produce the same high.

 

Both ocytocin and dopamine produce a sense of pleasure, well-being and contentment.

 

Is it possible that too much comfortable, snuggly love (oxytocin) in marriage and family life overrides the need for dopamine and is part of what's preventing women from needing passion?

 

With that theory in mind, here are few tweaks that might help women get turned on:

 

A) A low-level but real sense that another woman could take our man away.

 

B) Ongoing confirmation that our man is not a surrogate parent or sibling. We share a bathroom with you each morning and see each other at our worst. How can we create a sense of mystery, otherness, inaccessibility. (Along with the ocytocin thing, most healthy humans have an inborn disgust toward sex with someone overly "familiar." At its extreme, of course, we have incest.)

 

 

C) A sense that the husband / wife relationship is primary and that we are still first and foremost, lovers. Our family lives are far too child-centered. We no longer go by "children should be seen and not heard." Instead we've gone to the opposite extreme where families revolve entirely around the kids.

 

Just some thoughts.

Edited February 14, 2011 by florence of suburbia

[mem11363]

Flo,

No doubt I was getting a dopamine spillover in all that post racquetball sex. I am actually inclined to call it what it is for her - racquetsex.

 

Some nights that really does translate into spillover passion. Some nights it is just obligation (you gave me racquetsex so of course I will now give you standard sex).

 

As for the subtle but persistent belief that I will mate with another if she starves me - no question that works. Be real though, you can't possibly think I "like" that piece of the puzzle.

 

As for the parent first stuff - the guys who "co-parent" the most intensively have to offset that in some way or they get treated like a non-sexual co-parent. Athol who has a site - "married man sex life" is a male nurse. His W absolutely knows he is getting a steady stream of flirts/offers from the female doctors and nurses who work with him. She knows - because he is blunt about it that the main inhibitor to his responding to all those offers is her frequent sexual attention to him. On top of that he gets the "desire" dynamic better than just about any guy I have ever run into.

 

 

I get that.

 

I've been reading lately about brain chemistry and the drivers behind human sexual attraction, and it does seem that the security and familiarity of modern marriage is a natural dampener for the female sex drive. In some ways modern sex and love *is* a game.

 

It is a game because we have to manufacture the sort of environment that our primitive brains were designed to operate in -- just like we invent games like football to channel our aggression and competition instead of fighting each other to the death. Sports appeal to some of the same aggressive urges that we originally developed to aid our survival. Likewise, we don't have life or death situations driving us to reproduce and so we need to recreate some of that pressure through fantasy and by tweaking our behavior.

 

Strong familial bonds such as parent to child are accompanied by oxytocin, which is the calming chemical produced in a mother's brain when she breastfeeds.

 

Sexual desire is more closely linked to dopamine, which is also the chemical associated with addiction. Dopamine requires an ongoing sense of novelty to provide a reward. Once something gets old and familiar, it produces less of a chemical reaction. That's why people seek out more and more of an addictive drug to produce the same high.

 

Both ocytocin and dopamine produce a sense of pleasure, well-being and contentment.

 

Is it possible that too much comfortable, snuggly love (oxytocin) in marriage and family life overrides the need for dopamine and is part of what's preventing women from needing passion?

 

With that theory in mind, here are few tweaks that might help women get turned on:

 

A) A low-level but real sense that another woman could take our man away.

 

B) Ongoing confirmation that our man is not a surrogate parent or sibling. We share a bathroom with you each morning and see each other at our worst. How can we create a sense of mystery, otherness, inaccessibility. (Along with the ocytocin thing, most healthy humans have an inborn disgust toward sex with someone overly "familiar." At its extreme, of course, we have incest.)

 

 

C) A sense that the husband / wife relationship is primary and that we are still first and foremost, lovers. Our family lives are far too child-centered. We no longer go by "children should be seen and not heard." Instead we've gone to the opposite extreme where families revolve entirely around the kids.

 

Just some thoughts.

[Honorable_Venerable]

I get that.

 

I've been reading lately about brain chemistry and the drivers behind human sexual attraction,

 

Fascinating isn't it? My first degree is biochemistry, and stuff like this is what got me into the subject in the first place. There isn't too much really good biochem like that in my day to day now, but these huge physical and / or psychological responses to small changes in the concentrations of very ordinary molecules never fails light me up. Be careful, though - you can have too much of a good thing:lmao:

 

 

With that theory in mind, here are few tweaks that might help women get turned on:

 

A) A low-level but real sense that another woman could take our man away.

This is (IMO) not good. For every woman that decides based on this to make damned sure that her man has no reason to even look at another woman, because she's giving him all he could wish for, there will be several who either:

1) React by trying to remove him from situations where he interacts with potential "threats", so she feels safe in the knowledge he lacks opportunity; or

2) React either aggressively to him when she sees women are interested ("How dare you let those women find you attractive!") or passive-aggressively, by withdrawing all affection from a man who obviously isn't totally "theirs" irrespective of their actions ("I'll teach YOU to let other women look at you!")

 

B) Ongoing confirmation that our man is not a surrogate parent or sibling. We share a bathroom with you each morning and see each other at our worst. How can we create a sense of mystery, otherness, inaccessibility. (Along with the ocytocin thing, most healthy humans have an inborn disgust toward sex with someone overly "familiar." At its extreme, of course, we have incest.)

With great difficulty;). All too often the "mystery, otherness, inaccessibility" is seen as prudishness or prissyness, which is equally unhelpful. This is a very narrow line to walk, because the position of the line probably MOVES over time.

 

C) A sense that the husband / wife relationship is primary and that we are still first and foremost, lovers. Our family lives are far too child-centered. We no longer go by "children should be seen and not heard." Instead we've gone to the opposite extreme where families revolve entirely around the kids.

This is probably the biggest killer. In many relationships, love, time, energy, attention and money go on the children first, second and third and if there's any left over, then it goes on the kids unless it's once in a blue moon - after which the parents feel guilty about it! I know people who haven't had a weekend on their own since they've had children, periods of up to ten years in one case. In circumstances like these, couples can forget HOW to be couples. It may be like riding a bike and you never forget as such, but you surely wobble and fall a few times when you first get back on!

 

Oh, before anyone says you have to make those opportunities - not everyone can. They lack any mechanism to hand the children over to anyone for more than a couple of hours of an evening.