on turning an affair into a lasting relationship?

[whguy]

Please... Let's examine cheating behavior for what it is - a self centered character flaw.

 

People who have cheated on their spouses have all demonstrated atleast one common denominator - they're conscience allows them to cheat under certain circumstance, even when it means devistating other people's lives.

 

This is a FACT. I frankly don't care about the OM/OW or WS defenses, because there is no defending this fact.

 

Now the OP's question is one synonomous with "is it possible to have a good relationship with a recovering alcoholic?" Of course the answer is yes... Some recovering alcoholics are more serious than others, therefore there can be no absolute yes or no.

 

The issue with OP's question and my hypothedical are the same - What were really talking about here is recitivism.

 

Not one person in here would volunteer to take unecessary risk...

For example, if you needed a ride home from two strangers and you had to select from either a recovering alcholic, with a DUI on his record, or a driver that's never had a drink in his life. Clearly, all of us would choose Mr. Sober...

 

Why? Because we know that past behavior is a phenominal indicator for future behavior. We call this recitivism, and guess what... The recitivism rate is very high in individuals that have had extra marital affairs.

 

So, can a healthy, happy LTR be developed in a R where one or both partners have a history of infidelity? Of course; however the liklihood of that outcome is dwarfed by the impact that the recitivism rate has on that long term success.

 

Bottom line, dating a known cheater is as unnecessary a risk as dating a recovering alcoholic. Probably worse, since many alcoholics in recovery have actually sought professional help. Many infidels don't even do that.

 

This is 100% true. Very well written and very spot on.

 

CG our stories are somewhat similar. I still lurk on here from time to time even though my story wrapped up 2 years ago. I really do think the comparisons to alcoholism are similar. You establish that pattern, and one "drink" can send you back under. And in my case, when I saw the pattern start going downhill, that's when I cut and run.

 

Anyway - when I started dating again, prior infidelity was pretty much a deal breaker. The girl I'm dating now experienced the same thing in a non-marital relationship and it's much more comforting to know that we have seen the damage and know that our feelings are equally strong.

 

Once a cheater always a cheater doesn't necessarily have to be true, but generalizations are generalizations for a reason!

[ConflictedGuy27]

Anyway - when I started dating again, prior infidelity was pretty much a deal breaker. The girl I'm dating now experienced the same thing in a non-marital relationship and it's much more comforting to know that we have seen the damage and know that our feelings are equally strong.

 

Good call, whguy. I haven't really began dating yet. Just restarted going out in groups & to places where a lot of women hang out.

 

Like you, prior infidelity will be the biggest deal breaker for me too. Cheating is such a large indication of messed up character and a moral compass WAY off base. Im generally unapologetic for my stance on this.

 

Is it really that hard to say, "hey hubby/wife, I'm developing these feelings for another person and those feelings I feel could become problematic. Let's try to work this through together (I.e. tackle this in a manner consistent with the vows we took together). That's all it takes to be of sound moral character...

 

I read some of these OW posts and I just shake my head. What quality man of character would want a woman that has cheated (sometimes unapologetically) on their spouse...?

 

Oh well. I'm glad I found out about my ex's cheating ways before we had kids... I thank my lucky stars for that.

[White Flower]

Conflictedguy, wow. Just to let you know, when I shared my A with all my friends and acquaintances it turned out that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM had some part in an A before whether they were M or single at the time. I'll bet half your ex g/f's cheated and never told you, have your friends, half your parents and half your siblings already or will have cheated sometime in your lifetime. Sad, but true. When you look at it that way, the harsh REALITY of it, there aren't many who haven't cheated. So, if you have found someone who hasn't, cherish them for as long as you can cause their fidelity just might not last their lifetime.

 

Just sayin'.

[OWoman]

Not one person in here would volunteer to take unecessary risk...

For example, if you needed a ride home from two strangers and you had to select from either a recovering alcholic, with a DUI on his record, or a driver that's never had a drink in his life. Clearly, all of us would choose Mr. Sober...

 

What an assumption!

 

It also happens to be wrong.

 

Without any other information, and assuming the two strangers to be identical in all other respects, I would choose the recovering alcoholic.

Why? They're RECOVERING (i.e. dry), not practising - someone who's made a mistake, admitted it, and taken corrective action. This person has been made aware of the risks, has paid their dues, and is now far more likely to be sticking to the rules than someone who hasn't yet been caught.

 

On the "never touched a drop of the stuff" driver - sorry, but if someone's never had a drink in their lives, no way am I getting into their car! It would be like driving with the Taliban, or some other right wing religious fanatics! I'm not prepared to drive at half the legal speed limit - because they're risk-averse, hyper-rulebound and very strict - while being lectured about whatever about my lifestyle catches their disapproval (my wearing make up; my wearing a skirt shorter than ankle-length; my atheism; my political views; my vivacity; my outspokenness, etc). I'd far rather drive with someone who knows they're not perfect, who admits to the flawedness of the human condition and whose life has at least been characterised by something of interest beyond reverent clutchings of hymnals and daily prayers to the god of temperance.

 

Sorry, but I'd rather travel with the real person, not with the stuffed shirt.

 

And actually, yes, I have volunteered for "unnecessary risk" - as has anyone who's ever bungee jumped, skydived, rollerbladed at speed downhill, swam in crocodile-inhabited waters, whitewater rafted, gone caving, diving or enjoyed a zipwire rush, tried drugs, had unsafe sex even once, or resigned their safe job for the unknown, because of a gut feeling. Or anyone who's ever fallen in love, left a comfortable but unsatisfying relationship, moved out of home at a young age without a cushy trust fund to fall back on, or hitchhiked. Or, pretty much anyone who's ever been young, or who still insists on living, resisting the safe boring options of middle age.

 

I embrace "unnecessary risk" every day of my life - because it keeps my alive, agog at the wonder of the universe, and ecstatic at my place in it.

 

If boring works for you - that's great, and enjoy it. We need people like you to do our taxes, process our forms and make sure our interest gets added to the right account each month. If you were out there, living, too, some of us might have to do that boring stuff ourselves, and we're far too busy having fun to be bothered with all that.

[OWoman]

I read some of these OW posts and I just shake my head. What quality man of character would want a woman that has cheated (sometimes unapologetically) on their spouse...?

 

Most OW posting on LS are single (even if M at the onset of the A), and those who identify as "unapologetic" that I can bring to mind who may have been in a R at the time of commencing the A were upfront with their SOs, telling them about their APs, which their SOs chose to accept... so they can't be said to have "cheated" on their spouse.

[OWoman]

Once a cheater always a cheater doesn't necessarily have to be true, but generalizations are generalizations for a reason!

 

Right - blondes are all dumb; women can't park; men don't have feelings and black people - well, you know what they say about them....

 

Prejudice, methinks?

[whguy]

What an assumption!

 

It also happens to be wrong.

 

Without any other information, and assuming the two strangers to be identical in all other respects, I would choose the recovering alcoholic.

Why? They're RECOVERING (i.e. dry), not practising - someone who's made a mistake, admitted it, and taken corrective action. This person has been made aware of the risks, has paid their dues, and is now far more likely to be sticking to the rules than someone who hasn't yet been caught.

 

On the "never touched a drop of the stuff" driver - sorry, but if someone's never had a drink in their lives, no way am I getting into their car! It would be like driving with the Taliban, or some other right wing religious fanatics! I'm not prepared to drive at half the legal speed limit - because they're risk-averse, hyper-rulebound and very strict - while being lectured about whatever about my lifestyle catches their disapproval (my wearing make up; my wearing a skirt shorter than ankle-length; my atheism; my political views; my vivacity; my outspokenness, etc). I'd far rather drive with someone who knows they're not perfect, who admits to the flawedness of the human condition and whose life has at least been characterised by something of interest beyond reverent clutchings of hymnals and daily prayers to the god of temperance.

 

Sorry, but I'd rather travel with the real person, not with the stuffed shirt.

 

And actually, yes, I have volunteered for "unnecessary risk" - as has anyone who's ever bungee jumped, skydived, rollerbladed at speed downhill, swam in crocodile-inhabited waters, whitewater rafted, gone caving, diving or enjoyed a zipwire rush, tried drugs, had unsafe sex even once, or resigned their safe job for the unknown, because of a gut feeling. Or anyone who's ever fallen in love, left a comfortable but unsatisfying relationship, moved out of home at a young age without a cushy trust fund to fall back on, or hitchhiked. Or, pretty much anyone who's ever been young, or who still insists on living, resisting the safe boring options of middle age.

 

I embrace "unnecessary risk" every day of my life - because it keeps my alive, agog at the wonder of the universe, and ecstatic at my place in it.

 

If boring works for you - that's great, and enjoy it. We need people like you to do our taxes, process our forms and make sure our interest gets added to the right account each month. If you were out there, living, too, some of us might have to do that boring stuff ourselves, and we're far too busy having fun to be bothered with all that.

 

The big difference here is that alcoholics hurt themselves first and foremost and that the hurt they do to others is subsequent. Cheaters hurt the others they love first and foremost and the hurt they do to themselves is subsequent.

 

So, if that makes me "boring" by living my life amongst people who I can trust with my feelings, I'll be happy to be the most boring person in the world. I've had my share of fun, and left relationships, and hurt people, but it hasn't been for a lack of honesty. People deserve at least that much.

[ConflictedGuy27]

Conflictedguy, wow. Just to let you know, when I shared my A with all my friends and acquaintances it turned out that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM had some part in an A before whether they were M or single at the time. I'll bet half your ex g/f's cheated and never told you, have your friends, half your parents and half your siblings already or will have cheated sometime in your lifetime. Sad, but true. When you look at it that way, the harsh REALITY of it, there aren't many who haven't cheated. So, if you have found someone who hasn't, cherish them for as long as you can cause their fidelity just might not last their lifetime.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Hi Whiteflower. I hear what your saying but I believe my rationale still holds all of it's water, regardless of how many cheaters there are out there.

 

I don't consider it infidelity to "cheat" on someone you've never vowed not to "cheat" on. Marriage and a mogonomous LTR have things in common but aren't the same. Cheating, whether M or while dating still demonstrates poor moral judgement in my opinion; I just wanted to be clear that the audacity of cheating on one's spouse is miles ahead of a gf/bf pulling the same stuff.

 

Make no mistake, cheaters arguably have other redeeming qualities and the odds are there's someone I admire that's cheated before.

 

The bottom line is I can't control other people's behavior, but I can control mine. Do a lot of people cheat? Hell yes! Does that fact somehow change the behavior from a bad deed, to a good one? Hell no!

 

As of 2009 the UN estimated that there were approx. 6.8 billion people walking the planet, obviously half are women. I'll take my chances on finding Ms. Faithful; and if I don't, I have no problem staying single.

 

Perhaps you've never been betrayed by a spouse, White. I have and it sucked ass. It was the highest form of betrayal. I wouldn't want to put someone through that personally and romantically speaking I couldn't go long term or setup a bf/gf arrangement with a cheater. Just too risky IMO.

[ConflictedGuy27]

What an assumption!

 

It also happens to be wrong.

 

Without any other information, and assuming the two strangers to be identical in all other respects, I would choose the recovering alcoholic.

Why? They're RECOVERING (i.e. dry), not practising - someone who's made a mistake, admitted it, and taken corrective action. This person has been made aware of the risks, has paid their dues, and is now far more likely to be sticking to the rules than someone who hasn't yet been caught.

 

On the "never touched a drop of the stuff" driver - sorry, but if someone's never had a drink in their lives, no way am I getting into their car! It would be like driving with the Taliban, or some other right wing religious fanatics! I'm not prepared to drive at half the legal speed limit - because they're risk-averse, hyper-rulebound and very strict - while being lectured about whatever about my lifestyle catches their disapproval (my wearing make up; my wearing a skirt shorter than ankle-length; my atheism; my political views; my vivacity; my outspokenness, etc). I'd far rather drive with someone who knows they're not perfect, who admits to the flawedness of the human condition and whose life has at least been characterised by something of interest beyond reverent clutchings of hymnals and daily prayers to the god of temperance.

 

Sorry, but I'd rather travel with the real person, not with the stuffed shirt.

 

And actually, yes, I have volunteered for "unnecessary risk" - as has anyone who's ever bungee jumped, skydived, rollerbladed at speed downhill, swam in crocodile-inhabited waters, whitewater rafted, gone caving, diving or enjoyed a zipwire rush, tried drugs, had unsafe sex even once, or resigned their safe job for the unknown, because of a gut feeling. Or anyone who's ever fallen in love, left a comfortable but unsatisfying relationship, moved out of home at a young age without a cushy trust fund to fall back on, or hitchhiked. Or, pretty much anyone who's ever been young, or who still insists on living, resisting the safe boring options of middle age.

 

I embrace "unnecessary risk" every day of my life - because it keeps my alive, agog at the wonder of the universe, and ecstatic at my place in it.

 

If boring works for you - that's great, and enjoy it. We need people like you to do our taxes, process our forms and make sure our interest gets added to the right account each month. If you were out there, living, too, some of us might have to do that boring stuff ourselves, and we're far too busy having fun to be bothered with all that.

 

You do a great job in your post demonstating that we all have free will. If you care to knowingly select the recovering alcoholic driver with DUIs, by all means do it - it's your right. I'm sure if we surveyed 100 people and asked how bright an idea that is, I'd wager it wouldn't be too bright.

 

Also, one of my good friends chooses not to drink and he's witty, does great with women and is pretty adventurous. You nailed me out the gate by saying "what an assumption!", well I suppose I smell some hypocracy...

 

The point of my post had everything to do with recitivism. The undisputable fact of the matter is that some that's cheated before has a higher likelihood of doing it again. I don't really have on opinion about that fact anymore than I have an opinion about gravity on Earth. Facts are what they are.

 

All I'm saying, with respect to this thread, is that the chances of a faithful, LTR where one or more cheaters are involved, are bad. Obviously they're worse than two people that have ended previous relationships in a dignified way.

[White Flower]

Perhaps you've never been betrayed by a spouse, White. I have and it sucked ass. It was the highest form of betrayal. I wouldn't want to put someone through that personally and romantically speaking I couldn't go long term or setup a bf/gf arrangement with a cheater. Just too risky IMO.

I have been betrayed by a spouse, my exH. He betrayed me with our finances (gambling our $$$ away), with my trust (confiding in his mother/siblings and used them to hide our $$$), and finally with his AP who he also gave $$$ to and hid $$$ with. He did all this and pushed me further and further away. Even though he did all this, when I found MM I D'd my exH so that I wouldn't be cheating on him. And guess what? I still think he deserved it, but I couldn't live like that.

[whguy]

Conflictedguy, wow. Just to let you know, when I shared my A with all my friends and acquaintances it turned out that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM had some part in an A before whether they were M or single at the time. I'll bet half your ex g/f's cheated and never told you, have your friends, half your parents and half your siblings already or will have cheated sometime in your lifetime. Sad, but true. When you look at it that way, the harsh REALITY of it, there aren't many who haven't cheated. So, if you have found someone who hasn't, cherish them for as long as you can cause their fidelity just might not last their lifetime.

 

Just sayin'.

 

I have heard statistics that say that 50% of all marriages experience infidelity. As a man, I know that men are more likely to cheat than women.

 

I don't want to be in the bottom 50%. I walked away from my first one because she had a long-term A, and I'm working my ass off in my current relationship to make sure that she never has a reason!

[Tommy's Girl]

Most OW posting on LS are single (even if M at the onset of the A), and those who identify as "unapologetic" that I can bring to mind who may have been in a R at the time of commencing the A were upfront with their SOs, telling them about their APs, which their SOs chose to accept... so they can't be said to have "cheated" on their spouse.

 

Assuming you both made vows to be true to each other when you got married, if you have inappropriate relations with another person, it is cheating. Just because your spouse allows you to cheat doesn't make it "not cheating." I think you are caught on the word "cheat." Just exchange it for infidelity. Same thing. How often we forget that marriage is sacred. No partner is right to allow infidelity.

[staringin2sun]

I am a woman who has been in your wife's shoes. My advice is don't tell her of the affair if you are going to divorce. It causes unnecessary pain.

 

Also, you will never know if you will make it with your MOW until you try. I'm sure when you married your wife you thought you would make it then too. Nothing is certain.

 

My ex husband's affair was like yours. He is know with his MOW, it took her a year after our D to leave her H. I can tell you their relationship is very unhealthy. This is not just my own opinion but my X's also. But it is the grand passion he wants. Since they have only been truly together for a month now time will tell whether it will work. But they have to try.

 

Look at your marriage as a learning experience, forgive yourself and try not to rewrite history to make the blame your wife's. Accept your responsibility and promise yourself to do better.

[jennie-jennie]

Most OW posting on LS are single (even if M at the onset of the A), and those who identify as "unapologetic" that I can bring to mind who may have been in a R at the time of commencing the A were upfront with their SOs, telling them about their APs, which their SOs chose to accept... so they can't be said to have "cheated" on their spouse.

 

[/b]

 

Assuming you both made vows to be true to each other when you got married, if you have inappropriate relations with another person, it is cheating. Just because your spouse allows you to cheat doesn't make it "not cheating." I think you are caught on the word "cheat." Just exchange it for infidelity. Same thing. How often we forget that marriage is sacred. No partner is right to allow infidelity.

 

A partner does have the right to allow an open marriage. That is what we are talking about here, not allowing infidelity.

[White Flower]

A partner does have the right to allow an open marriage. That is what we are talking about here, not allowing infidelity.

True. I think it was she who was caught on the word.

[Dexter Morgan]

A partner does have the right to allow an open marriage.

 

true that.

 

and then looks stupid when they complain about it later.

[OWoman]

The point of my post had everything to do with recitivism.

 

I'm assuming you mean recidivism.

 

And if you know anything about recidivism (beyond how to spell it correctly ) you'd also know that recidivism rates differ widely from phenomenon to phenomenon. Sometimes recidivism rates are lower than "first 'offence' " rates in the general public. For instance, if, say, 40% of married men engage in infidelity, but only 25% of those WSs go on to have a second (or more) A - then the recidivism rate for infidelity would be lower than the incidence in the general population. (Those are thumbsuck statistics to illustrate the point, not based on any research.)

 

The undisputable fact of the matter is that some that's cheated before has a higher likelihood of doing it again.

 

OTC - it's neither a fact nor indisputable. I'm disputing it. Where is your evidence? What authoritative studies have established this claim, and what is their basis for claiming thus?

 

I don't really have on opinion about that fact anymore than I have an opinion about gravity on Earth. Facts are what they are.

 

Gravity is, in fact, a theory - devised by Isaac Newton - that happens to agree consistently with observations under certain conditions (Newtonian physics). It is, however, not consistent with ALL conditions, which is why we have rival theories for when Newtonian physics breaks down (on very small, or very large, scales - such as quantum physics and string theory). Gravity is only a "fact" if you state the parameters very clearly.

 

Your claim is not a fact - it's a claim, based on opinion. Even a single case could negate your claim - and there are very many cases one could cite to do so. It may be consistent with your views, or your hopes, or even your observations - but that does not make it a fact.

[White Flower]

I have heard statistics that say that 50% of all marriages experience infidelity. As a man, I know that men are more likely to cheat than women.

 

I don't want to be in the bottom 50%. I walked away from my first one because she had a long-term A, and I'm working my ass off in my current relationship to make sure that she never has a reason!

She sounds like a very lucky woman!

[Dexter Morgan]

I am a woman who has been in your wife's shoes. My advice is don't tell her of the affair if you are going to divorce. It causes unnecessary pain.

 

although I always think a BS has a right to know, I agree with the above. but ONLY if he is going to divorce her. because by divorcing her he is setting her free from him. not necessary to get into it at that point.

 

but if he decides not to divorce, it would be just another level of betrayal, lying, and deceit to keep her in the dark about it. it would be robbing her of information so she can take control of her life rather than someone else being in control of it.

 

 

Also, you will never know if you will make it with your MOW until you try.

 

I say he should try. and take all the good, but more than likely bad, that comes with it.

 

 

My ex husband's affair was like yours. He is know with his MOW, it took her a year after our D to leave her H. I can tell you their relationship is very unhealthy. This is not just my own opinion but my X's also. But it is the grand passion he wants.

 

and because that is what he wants, he'll never be satisfied being married OR in a committed LTR.

 

 

Since they have only been truly together for a month now time will tell whether it will work. But they have to try.

 

because of what you just described about him, give it time...he'll be looking for strange before too long.

[OWoman]

and because that is what he wants, he'll never be satisfied being married OR in a committed LTR.

 

Why can't you have passion in a M or a LTR?

(I didn't see that rule when I agreed to get M )

[rewe4reel]

Char,

 

I'm not going to call you "bad boy" since you're sensitive to that.

 

I'll just be a little more practical.

 

 

You've been involved with her for ~9 months (now closer to 10).

 

I wouldn't do anything at all except maintain the status quo for another 2-3 months.

 

I suspect after about a year of this you will start getting a little bit bored of each other, and the problem will solve itself, one or the other of you will get tired of each other. The novelty wears off.

 

Also, you don't have any children of your own. So you have no IDEA of what it will mean to be a step dad to two of her kids. I don't believe you have really thought that through.

 

A woman with two children is a "package deal" and you will find that her priority is her children, not you. Also, even if they get divorced, her ex is going to be more or less constantly involved in your lives from time to time until they are at least 18 and perhaps forever if there are grandchildren and so forth.

 

I sincerely think your best tactic is to just break it off clean with your OW, never tell your wife, and try to do the best you can to forget it ever happened.

 

Then, wait a full six months of complete no contact with your OW. If you STILL "love" her after six months of NC, then maybe she might be your soul mate.

 

If you really really need to have an affair, I'm sure you can find someone who is single with no kids to have it with.

[Dexter Morgan]

Why can't you have passion in a M or a LTR?

(I didn't see that rule when I agreed to get M )

 

never said passion can't exist, but for cheaters, it simply isn't enough to have a run of the mill passion since it isn't someone new and exciting.

 

thats the difference between men and women that are fit for marriage. while passion may still exist at some level in a marriage, it is never at the level as when it was new and exciting. some people love the fidelity and can accept even a diminished level of passion in a marriage....others want it to be like they just met all the time....and it just aint gonna be

[White Flower]

never said passion can't exist, but for cheaters, it simply isn't enough to have a run of the mill passion since it isn't someone new and exciting.

 

thats the difference between men and women that are fit for marriage. while passion may still exist at some level in a marriage, it is never at the level as when it was new and exciting. some people love the fidelity and can accept even a diminished level of passion in a marriage....others want it to be like they just met all the time....and it just aint gonna be

I remember my ex said something of this nature during our first year. It was definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't give in to it next time Dex. I ...even hesitate to say it because I don't want to inflame you....but maybe this is what began your exW's mindset before the A? Forgive me in advance if this sets you off, it isn't meant to. Just pointing something out.

[Dexter Morgan]

I remember my ex said something of this nature during our first year. It was definitely a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't give in to it next time Dex. I ...even hesitate to say it because I don't want to inflame you....but maybe this is what began your exW's mindset before the A? Forgive me in advance if this sets you off, it isn't meant to. Just pointing something out.

 

nope, this is one thing you could say that wouldn't set me off. bragging about how wonderful your time with someone elses husband does. But hey, I better watch it. Its ok for you to offend, but if I mention it I get slapped on the hand by the mods. kinda out of whack, but it is what it is.

 

what you said above indicates a problem in her. I could care less what her mindset was. All I care about is that she is the OM's problem now....and he knows this and has physically abused her over it.

 

but this thread isn't about me, so I try not to t/j, even though it is easy to do so.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Dexter Morgan

[karnak]

 

what you said above indicates a problem in her. I could care less what her mindset was. All I care about is that she is the OM's problem now....and he knows this and has physically abused her over it.

 

 

You mean she's being beaten up by him now?

 

Geez...