Spin-off: "The unwritten OW Rule"

[jj33]

Well said White Flower. The relationships from the point of view of the MP and the AP are set up to run in parallel with the marriage for as long as they last and either the A ends or the marriage ends or both end in very few cases both continue for years (eg Charles Kerault).

 

Is it fair to the BS? Of course its not. The BS is in the dark and doesnt get a vote in the majority of cases. But that is the reality or so it seems.

[moaningmyrtle]

...

 

I still dont get the question and am hoping the OP will qualify it.

 

When you engage in a clandestine affair you tacitly agree that you won't tell the BS (otherwise most As would be shortlived).

 

If the OW did the deed and called the OW the next day and said honey I hate to break it to you but your spouse is a cheater, how long would most As last...

 

I must be missing something here....

 

No I don't think you've missed anything JJ33. I said in my original post that there is no question as such, it's just for discussion, so there's no question to qualify.

 

I postulated that it's the "unwritten rule" - because as you say, it's tacitly agreed that the BS won't be told.

 

However I see so many As on the forum where the OW are adamant that it's become more than "just an A", it's now a "true love relationship", and some OW believe it's the major relationship in the MM's life.

 

In those cases I wonder why the ground rules don't change if the nature of the relationship has changed from something where the APs hope not to get emotionally involved to believing they are now the primary intimate relationship.

 

It seems contradictory to me that an OW would both want the MM to leave his wife but at the same time not be willing to be open about the relationship she has with him. [Obviously I'm not talking about those OW who really are content to go on indefinitely in a A]

[White Flower]

White Flower, you know better than anyone how hard I tried to contact her believing her to be a woman of integrity like me. I thought she owned her choices, had just fallen in love with the same man I had, and thought with all the water under the bridge, and what she had told him ( to reconcile with the spouse he obviously now loved) that she too was a woman who had taken the high road and could have a mature conversation.

 

She wasn't. She couldn't.

 

Why?

 

She wanted him back? She wanted to believe he only reconciled for familial obligations? She wanted to believe her delusion, as maybe spoonfed to her by him, that I was less than, and if not less than, than not as good for him as she was?

 

Two years later, I finally confront her after she breaks NC. We talk and she has anger and contempt and animosity in her voice towards me and him. Why?

 

Especially bizarre was this convo happens a wekk after she enters his office all sweetness and light and I have a new boyfriend, and should I pursue this relationship and do you think I am a bad person?

 

Why would this woman ever care one whit about me?

That is a very good question Spark. And why would you ever care one whit about her?

 

FTR, I thought the question read,

 

'Would this woman ever care one whit about me?'

 

And my question to you would have been,

 

'Would you care one whit about this woman?'

 

If I felt the question would have been 'yes' and was convinced of that I might consider talking with you. But if I was given any reason at all that the answer was no there is no way I would expose myself like that. The only reason an OW would give the time of day to the BW after the humiliation of a D-day is for altruistic reasons and only if the OW got some kind of gratification from that altruistic offering.

 

Though, I am sure there are many OW who would feel the need to kiss and tell in an effort to get revenge but that is futilistic really.

[White Flower]

.

 

I postulated that it's the "unwritten rule" - because as you say, it's tacitly agreed that the BS won't be told.

 

However I see so many As on the forum where the OW are adamant that it's become more than "just an A", it's now a "true love relationship", and some OW believe it's the major relationship in the MM's life.

Yes, this happens, as it happens in any R be it dating to falling in love to engagement to M. So it happens in As as well.

In those cases I wonder why the ground rules don't change if the nature of the relationship has changed from something where the APs hope not to get emotionally involved to believing they are now the primary intimate relationship.

 

The R does change, rules get renegotiated, and the R moves forward.

It seems contradictory to me that an OW would both want the MM to leave his wife but at the same time not be willing to be open about the relationship she has with him. [Obviously I'm not talking about those OW who really are content to go on indefinitely in a A]

I find this statement/question a little confusing. Would you please expound?

 

Unless you are saying that while we want him to leave we also want anonymity? I'm sure, in a perfect world, we want him to have the idea on his own to leave, get a D, then come find us and M us. This leaves our name and reputation in good standing and he has done something on his own that was right by all persons involved. Does this usually happen? No. But it is really the best outcome for all. He gets what he wants, OW feels validated (she didn't force him into leaving for her), and BW is free to pursue someone who will really love her.

[moaningmyrtle]

Yes, this happens, as it happens in any R be it dating to falling in love to engagement to M. So it happens in As as well.

 

The R does change, rules get renegotiated, and the R moves forward.

I find this statement/question a little confusing. Would you please expound?

 

I guess I meant why is the "don't tell the BW rule" rarely re-negotiated?

 

Unless you are saying that while we want him to leave we also want anonymity? I'm sure, in a perfect world, we want him to have the idea on his own to leave, get a D, then come find us and M us. This leaves our name and reputation in good standing and he has done something on his own that was right by all persons involved. Does this usually happen? No. But it is really the best outcome for all. He gets what he wants, OW feels validated (she didn't force him into leaving for her), and BW is free to pursue someone who will really love her.

 

I was a BW and believed I was my H's primary (well the only one really) relationship. The moment I found out about the OW that belief was severely called into question. Once d-day happened my H never denied loving her, so it wasn't that somehow I knew I was "the one".

 

Nevertheless I basically told her to "bog off" and she did. She didn't have to, and he could have gone with her. You could say I was putting him to the test and I didn't know which way he would go any more than an OW does prior to d-day.

 

I understand the secrecy at the start, but once the OW really believes she is "the one" - why doesn't she just tell the BW to "bog off" [again I'm not referring to OW who are content to be on the side].

 

If we BWs can basically put our whole family life and marriages

"on the line" like this, why do so many OW have difficulty with putting the A relationship on the line? [There I've asked some questions now but only because you seem to expect it]

[OWoman]

I understand the secrecy at the start, but once the OW really believes she is "the one" - why doesn't she just tell the BW to "bog off"

 

Because she's not the one in a R with the BW - the MM is. It's his place to tell her to "bog off" - thus actively choosing which woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with. Otherwise it's like a catfight between two high school girls over who gets to ask the school hunk to the final year dance. The guy doesn't get to choose, he becomes a passive possession to be squabbled over.

 

I must confess to having felt tempted to tell my H's xW to "bog off" during the A - but I knew that would resolve nothing. He needed to stand up to her for himself, to choose the life he wanted so that he could be at peace with his decision, make the best and most sustainable decision and not be pushed into something he may later regret.

[Spark1111]

Some MM LOVE the cat fight. It boosts there ego big time. It is in their best interest to keep this high-drama going for as long as possible.

 

They COUNT ON the ow's secrecy to keep this juice flowing. If the OW and BS spouse actually speak truthfully to each other, the boost goes pssssst, and now all three can make an informed decision for the future.

 

I cannot fathom this being about loyalty to the MM. I believe this is all to keep the drama alive as long as possible, IMHO.

 

And I think many OW are subconciously chosen or convinced by the MM to keep the secrecy dynamic to:

 

a) keep his juices flowing (bad boy, bad boy)

 

b) and the wife keeping the hearth and home together (cake eater)

 

c) and the OW waiting in the wings for years

 

Because why? oh why? Do so many of these illicit "love" relationships go caput when exposed to the light of day?

[White Flower]

Why would this woman ever care one whit about me?

I would still like to pursue this answer should I ever get that call.

 

What did you expect the OW to get out of her talk with you (as she gave you loads of information)?

[OWoman]

And I think many OW are subconciously chosen or convinced by the MM to keep the secrecy dynamic

 

This is an arena in which I have absolutely no experience, as I was in the driving seat in all of my As, but I would imagine that there must be SOMETHING in it for an OW too... Why would anyone heed the beck and call of someone else, often to their own detriment - if there wasn't some pay-off?

[White Flower]

This is an arena in which I have absolutely no experience, as I was in the driving seat in all of my As, but I would imagine that there must be SOMETHING in it for an OW too... Why would anyone heed the beck and call of someone else, often to their own detriment - if there wasn't some pay-off?

There is no need for the MM to convince the OW to keep secret but I do think there is a payoff. I suppose it has to do with protection and self-preservation if it doesn't work out.

 

I've thought of this often. When I compare what we have now and what we would have if all our friends and kids were involved in our lives I wouldn't have the unobstructed attention I get with him now. I would have to share him. Of course I wouldn't mind but it would be an adjustment.

[Got it]

I did receive a few calls but I didn't answer them. The answers for her needed to come from him.

 

There are many reasons that one relationship goes to the wayside over another, time invested, energy invested, love invested, saving face, conviction, conflict avoidance, exit affair, grass is greener issues, path of least resistence.

 

And there are the many (and I would argue the majority) of EMR dday where the MP does not intend to end either relationship but go back to status quo when deemed safe.

[Got it]

It varies by individual. I did not tell the BS for a few reasons.

 

1. I wanted him to handle things on his own end. Fight his battles and wrap up his issues.

 

2. I wanted him to do things solely on his own without any assistance or intervention on my end.

 

3. He isn't a child. He did not need me to "help" him and my involvement would have done none of the parties any favors.

 

4. Their marriage was between them. Our relationship was between us.

[OWoman]

There is no need for the MM to convince the OW to keep secret but I do think there is a payoff. I suppose it has to do with protection and self-preservation if it doesn't work out.

 

I've thought of this often. When I compare what we have now and what we would have if all our friends and kids were involved in our lives I wouldn't have the unobstructed attention I get with him now. I would have to share him. Of course I wouldn't mind but it would be an adjustment.

 

WF, I agree that the "secrecy" aspect can be chosen by the OW when that suits her, such as you illustrate. But if the OW DIDN'T want the secrecy - why should she agree to it? She's not the one with anything to lose by it being open. So for an OW to be "convinced" / manipulated by the MM into keeping it secret, there must be something in it for her - given that this may well not be in her own interests.

[OWoman]

It varies by individual. I did not tell the BS for a few reasons.

 

1. I wanted him to handle things on his own end. Fight his battles and wrap up his issues.

 

2. I wanted him to do things solely on his own without any assistance or intervention on my end.

 

3. He isn't a child. He did not need me to "help" him and my involvement would have done none of the parties any favors.

 

4. Their marriage was between them. Our relationship was between us.

 

These were pretty much my reasons, too

[Got it]

WF, I agree that the "secrecy" aspect can be chosen by the OW when that suits her, such as you illustrate. But if the OW DIDN'T want the secrecy - why should she agree to it? She's not the one with anything to lose by it being open. So for an OW to be "convinced" / manipulated by the MM into keeping it secret, there must be something in it for her - given that this may well not be in her own interests.

 

OWoman - And that is pretty much what I did. We came to an agreed upon amount of time that would take him to wrap up what he needed to and wasn't more than I was willing to commit to an EMR. I did not want the continued secrecy and so I could invest "x" amount of time I would not do longer. DDay hit about the same time so that muddied the waters a bit and I did walk at that point. I was staying true to my time line regardless of him. I couldn't control him but i could control me.

[skywriter]

Actually in my case I chose "me" over "him".

 

Pureinheart,

 

That was an awesome choice and a choice I've made as well, myself over him.

 

Because at the end of the day, we are all we've got.

[Spark1111]

I would still like to pursue this answer should I ever get that call.

 

What did you expect the OW to get out of her talk with you (as she gave you loads of information)?

 

Loads of information from me! Isn't that what the sharing of truth is? Your perspective of the relationship as experienced by you; my perception of that timelime as represented by me. Maturity, grace, communication.

 

Well, maybe it's me. I had a tremendous curiousity regarding the OW my husband claimed ot have fell in love with and almost left me for.

 

I only had empathy for her when he about faced and started to pursue me and the restoration of the marriage after DDay. I thought that woman, after all this time invested, must be heartbroken.

 

I found it absolutely amazing, given the circumstances of being thrown under the bus by a mid-life crisising, somewhat depressed man that you have been led to believe you would have a future with, that there was not one single question for me!

 

Obviously, we were both lied to for a very long time, and then both hurt. And thank you, I have all the factual information through bank statements and phone bills. Loads of information was not necessary....just extended an olive branch to what turned out to be a bitter, angry, manipulative woman in an effort to seek peace and closure in the event we should (we will) bump into each other a company event.

 

Whether he and I reconciled or not, whether he wound up with her or not, I am a genuinely kind person who forgives to heal myself and move forward and I always take the high road.

 

My naivete is believing others would be like me. Many are not.

 

And in my particular case she protected him, not out of any noble reason, but rather she was certainly hoping he would return to her. Nothing to do with him, but her and her needs.

 

Nothing noble about that.

[pureinheart]

It varies by individual. I did not tell the BS for a few reasons.

 

1. I wanted him to handle things on his own end. Fight his battles and wrap up his issues.

 

2. I wanted him to do things solely on his own without any assistance or intervention on my end.

 

3. He isn't a child. He did not need me to "help" him and my involvement would have done none of the parties any favors.

 

4. Their marriage was between them. Our relationship was between us.

 

You "Got It", Got It....lol....my reasons too.

[pureinheart]

Actually in my case I chose "me" over "him".

 

Pureinheart,

 

That was an awesome choice and a choice I've made as well, myself over him.

 

Because at the end of the day, we are all we've got.

 

Hi SW,

 

Yep...in fact your reply got me to think ...there is an old saying, and I am paraphrasing terribly here...I can change the geography, although I take myself with me where ever I go.

 

I don't know your entire story SW, although it may have been, as I know it was mine, the only choice.

 

I began to see the dynamics and it was disturbing to me how a family could function as exDM's family. When I first signed on to LS even the BS's agreed that it was a crazy situation I had gotten myself into.

 

This is in no way an attack on the WS (as I have been one too ), although in looking back exDM seems to be the center of the drama. In talking to him now and seeing how he functions and how his exW functions, she seems to be doing good, where she was psycho. I stand behind the fact that I did not make her psycho, the family dynamics did and the addiction to drama... ExDM is addicted to drama and does like to push peoples buttons...he does this when he feels violated in small and large ways.

 

Talking to exDM's W would have been more of the same drama and actually the entire family was stalking me in some form...it would have accomplished nothing...for me the jury is still out whether it benefits either party by them communicating, although threads such as these give me much meat to chew on (so-to-speak).

[pureinheart]

There is no need for the MM to convince the OW to keep secret but I do think there is a payoff. I suppose it has to do with protection and self-preservation if it doesn't work out.

 

I've thought of this often. When I compare what we have now and what we would have if all our friends and kids were involved in our lives I wouldn't have the unobstructed attention I get with him now. I would have to share him. Of course I wouldn't mind but it would be an adjustment.

 

Could one possiblity be that "we" understand their situation better than they do?

 

I saw ExDM's M on a downward spiral from day one, it was a destructive relationship. In talking to exDM's sister, she communicated that his exW NEVER took into account the things that exDM had been through...FTR it was bad.

 

To give exDM the benefit of the doubt...while he was addicted to drama, he was one hell of a provider...raised 4 kids on his pay alone so that she could take care of the kids in the proper way (something he never got). This guy would work TWO full-time jobs and come home and fix things around the house to makes ends meet...they couldn't afford new stuff so he fixed the old...you know? I have a great deal of respect for him in this area and there are other good attributes also....as anger subsides, I am seeing a more balanced view.

[pureinheart]

I messed up...

 

To continue my book....My payoff was simply knowing him, him being my friend and that is why it remained an EA, we were never meant to "be together", although I did hope that would happen someday, but I see the truth now. I did some good things in his life, and I know there was great change in the way he thinks because of me.

 

It frustrated me to no end that his ex would not put the time in to really know him...no offence intended to the BS's on this forum...and FTR he did a lot for me too.

 

The BS wants blanks to be filled in that IMO only the M can do...people do everything for a reason, it's just a matter of what that root reason is, they are all different. Having an A IS sending out a big message, the question is, is what is that message...the motive behind the motive.

[White Flower]

WF, I agree that the "secrecy" aspect can be chosen by the OW when that suits her, such as you illustrate. But if the OW DIDN'T want the secrecy - why should she agree to it? She's not the one with anything to lose by it being open. So for an OW to be "convinced" / manipulated by the MM into keeping it secret, there must be something in it for her - given that this may well not be in her own interests.

True enough. MM has recently began telling family and friends about me and even though I always wanted this I must admit that I'm a little apprehensive because I know no matter what some of those people will always have their own thoughts and prejudgments about me (which is what he tried to protect me of since the beginning). But too much time and energy has been invested not to tell at this point and for those who want to be happy for us, great. Those that don't, oh well. I'll take my punches. I'm a big girl.

[White Flower]

1. Loads of information from me! Isn't that what the sharing of truth is? Your perspective of the relationship as experienced by you; my perception of that timelime as represented by me. 2. Maturity, grace, communication.

 

3. Well, maybe it's me. I had a tremendous curiousity regarding the OW my husband claimed ot have fell in love with and almost left me for.

 

4. I only had empathy for her when he about faced and started to pursue me and the restoration of the marriage after DDay. I thought that woman, after all this time invested, must be heartbroken.

 

5. I found it absolutely amazing, given the circumstances of being thrown under the bus by a mid-life crisising, somewhat depressed man that you have been led to believe you would have a future with, that there was not one single question for me!

 

6. Obviously, we were both lied to for a very long time, and then both hurt. And thank you, I have all the factual information through bank statements and phone bills. Loads of information was not necessary....just extended an olive branch to what turned out to be a bitter, angry, manipulative woman in an effort to seek peace and closure in the event we should (we will) bump into each other a company event.

 

7. Whether he and I reconciled or not, whether he wound up with her or not, I am a genuinely kind person who forgives to heal myself and move forward and I always take the high road.

 

8. My naivete is believing others would be like me. Many are not.

 

9. And in my particular case she protected him, not out of any noble reason, but rather she was certainly hoping he would return to her. Nothing to do with him, but her and her needs.

 

Nothing noble about that.

1. I guess I forgot I was talking to Spark!! I anticipate MM's W to be much more closed off and judgmental based on what I already know of her.

 

2. If only we can all demonstrate such qualities. Again, refer to number 1.

 

3. Me too. Curious to a fault. Ask MM.

 

4. Not sure how you will receive this, but I have empathy for BW as well. Yes, I sleep with her H, but I know how much that thought would hurt her; therefore, I don't mind that MM minimized our A and told her we were just friends. It would kill her to know.

 

5. Now THIS is something I can relate to! I WOULD have had a billion questions for you (every experience is a learning experience, right?), but again, if the BW is only expecting knowledge for repentence and I as an OW don't believe you want to offer me the truth I may be apprehensive in asking for it. Did you ask OW why she didn't have any questions for you?

 

6. So, the only reason she agreed to meet with you was in order to create a 'peace agreement' should you run into each other at work events? Interesting. If I was offered a Q and A session with you, I would have certainly engaged! At the very least, I would have gotten my sense of intuition validated on certain events if nothing else. And also, if I could see that you were sincerely empathetic (is 'sincerely empathetic' redundant, lol:laugh:) that might have been a spiritual moment for me. In other words, I would have been touched.

 

7. I have always thought of myself in the same way. I know BS will jump all over that, but it's true. I would like to discuss number 7 in further detail one day.

 

8. Same here.

 

9. After 2 years she is still hoping he will return to her? How sad! So you think she was protecting him and keeping his secrets for her own needs? How do you know? Maybe she did it for him? Or maybe she was just uncomfortable in kissing and telling? Did you try to dig out of her her reasons for not exchanging info?

 

Spark, thanks for taking the time to answer the question. You are a rarity among BW and it is no wonder that he knew who to chose to spend the rest of his life with. It is also rare that you try to understand the OW POV and are sensitive to her feelings. We are all human.

[moaningmyrtle]

OWoman wrote: "Because she's not the one in a R with the BW - the MM is. It's his place to tell her to "bog off" - thus actively choosing which woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with. Otherwise it's like a catfight between two high school girls over who gets to ask the school hunk to the final year dance. The guy doesn't get to choose, he becomes a passive possession to be squabbled over.

 

I must confess to having felt tempted to tell my H's xW to "bog off" during the A - but I knew that would resolve nothing. He needed to stand up to her for himself, to choose the life he wanted so that he could be at peace with his decision, make the best and most sustainable decision and not be pushed into something he may later regret.

It varies by individual. I did not tell the BS for a few reasons.

1. I wanted him to handle things on his own end. Fight his battles and wrap up his issues.

 

2. I wanted him to do things solely on his own without any assistance or intervention on my end.

 

3. He isn't a child. He did not need me to "help" him and my involvement would have done none of the parties any favors.

 

4. Their marriage was between them. Our relationship was between us.

 

I have only recently realised why a wife might be more willing than an OW, to tell the other woman to "p*** off".

 

I guess the OW has known from day 1 that she is unwanted in the marital relationship, which is after all between the man and his wife.

 

The BW (after d-day) very much regards the OW as an intruder in her marriage (at least I did) so feels quite justified in telling the OW to "nick off". Despite the rather obvious comparison with schoolgirl behaviour, it's actually not all that juvenile. Adult humans have been repelling invasions from perceived enemies since time immemorial.

 

On the other hand the OW does not usually perceive the BW (at least initially) as an intruder into the Affair relationship. Even if she did, I imagine OW would have a hard time trying to convince most MM of that.

 

Therefore telling the wife to "p*** off", is not usually done. Probably this is an implicit acknowledgment of the different dynamics of the 2 relationships.

 

I have noticed that the biggest condemnation for OW who "tell the wife" actually comes from OW, who are very quick to point out the dramatic turnaround from when the A was going strong. Probably just emphasizes that it is in fact an "unwritten rule".

 

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

[NoIDidn't]

OWoman wrote: "Because she's not the one in a R with the BW - the MM is. It's his place to tell her to "bog off" - thus actively choosing which woman he wants to spend the rest of his life with. Otherwise it's like a catfight between two high school girls over who gets to ask the school hunk to the final year dance. The guy doesn't get to choose, he becomes a passive possession to be squabbled over.

 

 

I must confess to having felt tempted to tell my H's xW to "bog off" during the A - but I knew that would resolve nothing. He needed to stand up to her for himself, to choose the life he wanted so that he could be at peace with his decision, make the best and most sustainable decision and not be pushed into something he may later regret.

 

 

I have only recently realised why a wife might be more willing than an OW, to tell the other woman to "p*** off".

 

I guess the OW has known from day 1 that she is unwanted in the marital relationship, which is after all between the man and his wife.

 

The BW (after d-day) very much regards the OW as an intruder in her marriage (at least I did) so feels quite justified in telling the OW to "nick off". Despite the rather obvious comparison with schoolgirl behaviour, it's actually not all that juvenile. Adult humans have been repelling invasions from perceived enemies since time immemorial.

 

On the other hand the OW does not usually perceive the BW (at least initially) as an intruder into the Affair relationship. Even if she did, I imagine OW would have a hard time trying to convince most MM of that.

 

Therefore telling the wife to "p*** off", is not usually done. Probably this is an implicit acknowledgment of the different dynamics of the 2 relationships.

 

I have noticed that the biggest condemnation for OW who "tell the wife" actually comes from OW, who are very quick to point out the dramatic turnaround from when the A was going strong. Probably just emphasizes that it is in fact an "unwritten rule".

 

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

 

Great analysis. Can't wait to read the rebuttals.