Does God exist?

[jenny]

i'm an agnostic, but i have a lot of ambivalent respect for religion. i've been hurt by people misusing religion, and it is very hard not to conflate the ideology with the individual.

 

and, to tell you the truth, i'm envious. i think it would suck not knowing what love is like; (to use moi's metaphor) and i think some people have some sense of love that i do not. i was raised in a very spiritual home, but i think my education censored my faith right out - i know this is a generalization, but i would say comfortably that most public universities in canada have no problem constantly confronting, questioning, and deconstructing any christian doctrine. (but, interestingly, i have not heard them go after other religions in the same way)

 

i digress. luckily, with the power of rationalism, it is perfectly reasonable that, as Aonz suggests, god exists for some but not for others.

 

i like being a pseudo-atheist, but i wish they would just let the specter of xtianity go. we spend like 20 minutes of every freethinker meeting bemoaning various sins of the church - which, to my mind, has nothing to do with spirituality.

 

anyway. just to let you know that most agnostics adopt a very happy and loving "believe as you will" approach to the universe - it's one of the benefits of admitting you just don't know.

[Errol]

I'm curious -- I was taught that premarital sex was a sin and shamefull and a Good Christian would not do it.

 

Those of you who profess to be Christians -- how do you justify having sex with multiple partners outside of "Holy Wedlock" ???

 

I'm also curious about your views on abortion. Again, my Christian upbringing said that life begins at conception and abortion is murder.

 

And yet - I meet many different people who practice pre-marital sex and have had abortions and then talk about their Christian church activities. Baptist, Protestent, Methodist, Lutheren, and Catholic. All part of the same basic Christian faith. I'm not putting anyone down -- I just wonder if religion is taught differently nowadays. Is there something new that embraces these activities and states that they are no longer hellbound sins? Like I said, I'm just curious - don't mean the questions as a put-down. Can anyone point out text in the Bible and give me a pastors reference that I can look up to see what the interpretation is now?

 

As for me. I grew up. I questioned. I received so many different answers. I saw no proof- in any of the Christian churches I have attended or in the Jewish temple I explored. I don't believe in anything. But if others do - more power to 'em if their belief helps them live their lives to their own satisfaction. Just don't try to tell me what to do or how to live based on your faith. I am a good person, friend, spouse, employee, employer, citizen, etc. without god.

[bark]

i'm an agnostic, but i have a lot of ambivalent respect for religion. i've been hurt by people misusing religion, and it is very hard not to conflate the ideology with the individual.

 

 

I would say it's impossible "not to conflate the ideology with the individual." I have no problems with religion in the abstract--also known as theology. It's an entertaining diversion for some The problem, as it almost always is, is in the application.

 

Religion, like any ideology, does not exist in a vacuum. There are always human consequences flowing from abstract beliefs about good, evil, salvation, transcendence, heresies, the damned, the beginning of life, martyrdom etc. Not all religion is "polite."

 

The bastards who flew the planes into the WTC, the Pentagon and into a field in Pennsylvania were, by all reports, devout, religious men. For the sake of the thousands killed I must, as Jenny says, "conflate the ideology with the individual." I cannot, and will not, separate the two. Both are responsible: the doctrine and those who harm others in the name of the doctrine.

 

Religion, throughout human history, was frequently used as a license to kill--as were many secular creeds of which Communism, as applied by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, was one

 

I'm distrustful of any totalistic explanation for all things that gives the believer justification for hurting others.

 

I stand with Yeats:

 

"The best lack all conviction,

The worst are full of passionate intensity."

 

After 9/11, quite frankly, religion scares me.

[BlockHead]

youngandhopeful

I have no religious beleifs and i am happy that way.

Some people refuse to believe that they are religious when they actually are.

 

Main Entry: 1re·li·gious

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio

Date: 13th century

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>

2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances

3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : FERVENT, ZEALOUS

- re·li·gious·ly adverb

- re·li·gious·ness noun

 

For some people, science is a religion.

 

I'm curious -- I was taught that premarital sex was a sin and shamefull and a Good Christian would not do it.

Try to imagine how the spread of some serious diseases could be prevented if people would actually practice it.

Those of you who profess to be Christians -- how do you justify having sex with multiple partners outside of "Holy Wedlock" ???

Very simple. I don’t have sex with multiple partners.

I'm also curious about your views on abortion. Again, my Christian upbringing said that life begins at conception and abortion is murder.

I agree with that.

I don't believe in anything.

Do you believe that you are alive? Do you believe in logic? Do you believe that there is order in the universe?

 

bark

Religion, throughout human history, was frequently used as a license to kill--as were many secular creeds of which Communism, as applied by Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, was one

Everything is abused and distorted for the purpose of gaining power over other people. What are some of the ways?

Religion, politics, military force, wealth, dependency, sex, fear, confusion, etc.

Politically, the left-wingers and right-wingers are almost as fanatical as those terrorists.

[Errol]

Originally posted by BlockHead

Some people refuse to believe that they are religious when they actually are.

 

Main Entry: 1re·li·gious

Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&s

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio

Date: 13th century

1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <a religious person> <religious attitudes>

2 : of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances

3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : FERVENT, ZEALOUS

- re·li·gious·ly adverb

- re·li·gious·ness noun

 

For some people, science is a religion.

I am not a religious person. I don't practice or believe in any religion. Because my actions and attitudes may mirror some religious teachings (10 commandments) does not mean that I am latently religious. I obey civil law (well, I do speed sometimes and I have some pens at home that came from the office) and I'm just not a murdering type and I'm not happy hurting another person by making a commitment to them and then betraying that commitment. But it has no foundation in religion -- its just not right for me. It was when I began questioning these attributes in myself that I fell away from religion and belief. Parents and pastors tried to tell me I felt these things because of God working within me, but I don't believe that for a minute. A person who never knew any god can be a very good, honest, decent person. It's a fallacy that anyone who does not believe in god is a brutal creature who will rape, plunder, lie, kill just because he can do it without fear of holy retribution.

 

Try to imagine how the spread of some serious diseases could be prevented if people would actually practice it.

Very simple. I don’t have sex with multiple partners.

I agree with that.

but what I'm asking is for christians to show me some bible passages and give me some leads on how pastors are not translating those passages to say its ok to have sex before marriage and that abortion as birth control is ok.

 

Do you believe that you are alive? Do you believe in logic? Do you believe that there is order in the universe?

We could play with semantics here all day. What is alive? What is logic? How do you define 'order in the universe' - what to you constitutes this?

 

I think therefore I am? I can feel pain so I must be alive? I exist? What does any of that have to do with religion? I don't have to believe in anything to exist. Do I believe in the dial on my watch?

[bark]

The problem with your broad definition of "religion," BlockHead, is that if everything involves religion, then nothing does. Religion simply becomes synonymous with strong beliefs about things. Belief, in my opinion, is a necessary but not sufficient condition for religion.

 

More is needed such as a sense of transcendence, a body of doctrine, ethical prescriptions and proscriptions, faith, myths, co-believers and worship rituals.

 

I also believe, against Marx, that religion is no longer the "opiate" of the masses but a weapon.

[befuddled11]

Yes, Christians are taught that premarital sex is wrong. So you're wondering how "so-called" Christians can go around having premarital sex? Well.....who said Christians are supposed to be PERFECT? Nobody is perfect. Not even the most devout Christian. We're all human, we all fall short, we're all tempted, we all sin.

 

Being a Christian isn't synonymous with being "perfect" because that's not even possible. For non-Christians to shake their fingers at Christians and judge them for not living perfect lives, that always amuses me.

[Errol]

Yes, Christians are taught that premarital sex is wrong. So you're wondering how "so-called" Christians can go around having premarital sex? Well.....who said Christians are supposed to be PERFECT? Nobody is perfect. Not even the most devout Christian. We're all human, we all fall short, we're all tempted, we all sin.

 

Being a Christian isn't synonymous with being "perfect" because that's not even possible. For non-Christians to shake their fingers at Christians and judge them for not living perfect lives, that always amuses me.

 

I am not shaking my finger or making any kind of claim that christians are perfect (whatever your definition of perfection is) and I don't know where you got that idea, but aren't christians supposed to strive to be the way their god/jesus want them to be? aren't they supposed to pray to not give in to temptation and to not sin?

 

what I am asking for is an explanation and/or opinions on premarital sex for people who claim to be christians.

 

i am asking christians "how do you justify this? do you feel guilty? do you have to pay some kind of penance? is there a doctrine that says its okay? (some christians have told me that the no pre-marital sex was a poor interpretation and that sex with a partner with whom you have a commitment is okay. which sounded like a lame excuse to me and I would like to find the text and a pastor (or multiple pastors) who will back up that claim) if you have sex and then beg forgiveness does that make it okay to keep having sex before marriage -- as long as you beg forgiveness, say hail marys, or whatever afterward? if your god is so important to you then why do you continually break the commandment/law about pre-marital sex? Why are you so casual about it - is it now a lesser-sin - one that you won't go to hell for?"

 

I'm curious - not condemning.

 

I am not passing any kind of judgement or calling anyone names I am asking some reasonable questions.

[BlockHead]

Errol

what I am asking for is an explanation and/or opinions on premarital sex for people who claim to be christians.

Christian in name but not necessarily in practice. The word hypocrite is used many times in the Bible to describe the some of the most observant Jews.

Errol

i am asking christians "how do you justify this? do you feel guilty? do you have to pay some kind of penance? is there a doctrine that says its okay?

Do you take an insincere apology seriously? In a way, you could call it a lie.

 

We are called sheep because they are known for their stupidity. If you sinned out of stupidity, and are sincere in your apology, then you are forgiven.

Goats are destructive and irredeemable animals. They are condemned.

 

Penance is meant to repair the damage, and it involves some form of reparation.

[Aonz]

Take away this belief that there is a God, and our existence seems rather nasty and pointless doesn't it. The universe is reduced to a cold unfeeling place that we just happen to have evolved in; that we struggle to survive in, and that has nobody out there looking after us because we are totally alone. When we die its all over for us, there's nothing more, and our descendants continue the eternal struggle for survival. We become nothing more than animals that happened to get smart and are here by pure chance alone, and by the same token at some point in the future may not be here at all.

 

By removing God and religion we would merely throw away our security blanket, but nothing would really change, apart from society, and that must surely change for the better without religious divides. Life would continue as before and end as before. It would create a temporary problem for all those whose theories call upon God to have created the universe, but that would soon change.

 

Our world is not perfect and never will be, so why not get used to it, because that's the way it is. Religion never has, nor ever will, solve anything. Only we can do that. As for religion, its just make-believe, a heart warming myth to pacify and control the masses who otherwise would not be quite so happy to accept their miserable lot, or their eventual demise. However, we would all be better off without it because no matter how unpalatable the truth may be, it’s better than living a lie.

 

If you prefer to see it differently, that's fine, because as long as my beliefs do not interfere with your life and yours mine, we do not have a problem over religion. Religion only becomes a problem when we fight over it, and countless millions of deaths can already be directly attributed to disputes over religion.

[lost_in_chgo]

You send a letter to someone. They don't reply.

Some people would say "he didn't get it"

Others would say "He read it, but he doesn't care to reply"

Some would say "He read it and he loves you and he will act in your best interest when he can or wants to.

Some would say "He read it and he doesn't care about you so move on"

Still others would say "He just tossed that letter in the garbage and never bothered to read it"

And a few would say "he doesn't exist"

 

On this website

He could be an old boyfriend

or evidently he could be God.

 

(substitute she as needed)

 

Atheism is some people's way of killing God so that they don't have to deal with not getting a response.

This world exists because something created something. The first something in that cycle/string is what I would call God.

Smarter to be agnostic in the face of a universe of evidence.

[Skittles]

quoted by Blockhead

 

Satan is the seductress. The kind of person that is willing to sucker and manipulate people to get what she wants.

 

I guess Satan got bitchy so God sent her packing.

 

 

Satan is a chick? I wondered who stole my stilettos.

 

 

I am elated that I own my concept of God, He/She divinity. I was raised Catholic, evolved to Christian and have not stopped evolving.

 

I honor God every day through my actions and thoughts...( and I struggle each day with my actions and thoughts! )

 

Every act that honors myself and mankind is a prayer.

 

I pray every day to be true to myself, to be true to God's reason for me being on this planet . ..I pray that they become one in the same.

 

I respect all, believers and non-believers, the tolerant and the intolerant, because respecting others is the ultimate act of self-respect.

[moimeme]

Religion, throughout human history, was frequently used as a license to kill-

 

So has money. Religion has also been responsible for education and charity and plenty of good things. Of course, people will take only the bad examples to bolster weak arguments.

 

As for Christianity and premarital sex, etc. You ask about Christianity as though the only way to be Christian is to follow the letter of laws made by churches made by humans. Which, in many cases, have varied quite a bit from what Christ actually taught. Before you ask what's right or proper for a Christian to do, you have to nail down a definition of 'Christian' and then see how many people it applies to. It seems that, to you, a Christian would be a follower of church-defined rules (and you haven't mentioned which church).

[bark]

Satan is a chick? I wondered who stole my stilettos.

 

I bet the little she devil loves shopping for shoes, too!

[Skittles]

I bet the little she devil loves shopping for shoes, too!

 

 

Bark, I heard her taste is shameless.

[UCFKevin]

I sure as hell hope there's a God. I'd hate to think this is all there is to existence.

 

There are sometimes I think if there is a God, he doesn't do much, but then again, other times, I just look up at the sky and say, "Damn. Thanks for that."

 

Personally, I don't care for religion. Usually, well not usually, but sometimes, with religion comes someone who wants to push their beliefs on someone else, whether they want to hear about it or not. Or killing for religion. What?! Reread whatever instruction book it is you read! I also don't care to hear about how I'm going to hell because i don't think or do certain things.

 

The biggest thing that bugs me about God is that, according to some religions, his love is completely conditional. Do this and that and I'll love you, otherwise, sorry, have fun in hell. That doesn't seem like an all loving God. Free will and all, yeah, but still...

 

Anyway. I prefer to believe what I want to believe, regardless of what's out there.

[BlockHead]

UCFKevin

The biggest thing that bugs me about God is that, according to some religions, his love is completely conditional. Do this and that and I'll love you, otherwise, sorry, have fun in hell. That doesn't seem like an all loving God. Free will and all, yeah, but still...

I agree. Too many people try to use intimidation.

Nobody can tell you if you are going to heaven or hell. That is none of their business.

[Aonz]

Originally posted by lost_in_chgo This world exists because something created something. The first something in that cycle/string is what I would call God.

 

Why?

 

I know that some would argue that God is necessary as a Creator and Grand Designer of the universe but I disagree. The universe can simply be the way it is by pure chance alone, it need not have been designed to be the way it is. For those that argue that the universe requires such a high degree of 'fine tuning' for things to be so well suited for our own creation and evolution that it could not have happened by chance alone I disagree again. If the universe were not so well suited for us then we wouldn't be here! The fact that we are here does not mean that the entire universe was designed just for our benefit.

 

In my view the universe did not have a creation event, it always existed.

 

I understand that the idea seems unsatisfactory to our way of thinking, but our way of thinking is probably part of the problem. In our universe we take for granted cause and effect, in that order. Everything we know of happens that way and even our minds work that way! Our very existence would not be possible if it were the other way round. When therefore we try to contemplate the idea of something always existing we simply can not manage to understand it, we are seeking a 'cause' for the 'effect' of the universe existing. The universe however is different to us, it exists in nothing, whereas we of course exist in the universe. There is no cause and effect in a timeless eternal infinite nothing!

 

By definition then nothing must be an infinite void. If nothing exists it would have to be infinite. This is a result of it not being allowed any boundaries, as a boundary would place a limit on nothing's size and furthermore would also indicate that there was something existing on the 'other ' side of the boundary, apart from the boundary itself existing. This would be contrary to our definition of both infinite and of nothing. Nothing then, when described as an infinite void, excludes all possibility of anything else existing, anywhere.

 

Within the description of the Big Bang there are three main cosmological models. The open universe that will expand forever, the flat model that will come to a halt, or the closed model that will recollapse, possibly 'bouncing' back into another cycle of expansion. If the universe is closed it is possible that it will 'bounce' back cycle after cycle, forever.

 

So an infinite eternal unchanging nothing that has always existed and has always contained a finite but unbounded closed universe that constantly changes but is itself eternal. In this model the Big Bang is not required as a creation event, it is merely a phase in the cycle of an eternally expanding and collapsing universe and has no special significance at all.

[BlockHead]

Aonz

If the universe is closed it is possible that it will 'bounce' back cycle after cycle, forever.

Stars have finite energy, and they will eventually burn out.

 

Energy is constantly being radiated from the universe, and into the void. How could energy be conserved, assuming that the law still applies?

[lost_in_chgo]

I know that some would argue that God is necessary as a Creator and Grand Designer of the universe but I disagree. The universe can simply be the way it is by pure chance alone, it need not have been designed to be the way it is. For those that argue that the universe requires such a high degree of 'fine tuning' for things to be so well suited for our own creation and evolution that it could not have happened by chance alone I disagree again. If the universe were not so well suited for us then we wouldn't be here! The fact that we are here does not mean that the entire universe was designed just for our benefit.

 

You are providing arguments for yourself. I never attributed anything to design, fine tuning or intent in my post.

[Goatsbreath]

I would like to say that I would like to believe that there is something possibly more than this but then that would support the argument- 'religion is a crutch in which we lean on to hope cope with death.' Yes- I am afraid to die. I dont know why- I just am I guess. The things that make it hard for me to believe are some points touched upon near the start of this post. How do you condemn someone to hell who is raised a certain way. People are born every day into a religion they can not really choose. They are shovled and spooned it their entire child hood. But what religion really leads to salvation. I mean, I know someone said that there are many vehicles to take that end at the same destination but then why- Do all the vehicles- claim they are the only one to really get you there. Im sure I heard something about false religions in my sunday school teachings. I mean, is it fair, that if this teaching is correct- that millions of people are just born into condemnation. I dont understand this.

[VivianLee]

Yes I believe God exists.

[dyermaker]

I often find that atheists are more evangelical than those who believe in God.

[BlockHead]

dyermaker

I often find that atheists are more evangelical than those who believe in God.

Good point. I don’t think anybody will be converted to atheism or to Christianity in this forum. The atheists seem to think they have a strong argument. The same is true for Christians. This leads me to wonder, “How many people are also trying to convince themselves?”

[HokeyReligions]

Does God exist?

 

Which God? Any God? What is the definition? The Christian God? Budhha? Horus? Zeus?

 

God exists in the imagination of man. He or She is made real to some thru belief / blind faith. But what is real to some is not real to others.

 

God or Gods may exist for some, but not for me. I'm as convinced about the existence of God as I am convinced we are inside a sphere and a giant alien is playing mumbly-peg with our universe!