some thoughts about having an affair …

[bark]

Oh Bark, I cringed when I read some of the posts because I thought of you...I reread mine and realized that I probably sound like a relationship talk-show refugee..

 

Skittles, I wasn't referring to you. Your posts are balanced and nuanced-- as was moimeme's latest post.

 

I have thick skin, I can take the punishment.

 

My concern is more practical. If people who cheat believe that their LS reception will be hostile, judgmental and hyper-critical, they will be deterred from seeking our counsel. These folks will feel branded with the scarlet letter and not seek advice that just might dissuade them from continuing their course of conduct. In my opinion, LS posters must strike a balance between endorsing adultery and damning the adulterer. This is especially true for the "other woman" who is, I believe, a big LS consumer.

 

A harsh, moralistic scolding tone, while a kick to the poster, drives many of us back underground and into the arms of the only sympathetic person, our lover. It's the law of unintended consequences in action.

 

Sometimes it's simply a question of tone...

 

Criticize, but lighten up.

[Kat]

LS??

[moimeme]

Love Shack

[Kat]

ahh cheers Makes sense now

[bark]

In fact, I've observed a huge double standard. Guys can post the most incredibly stupid, vile, racist/sexist crap about sex organ size or "dick-lay," for example, and many of the replies are of the " isn't this funny" or "boys will be boys" variety. The posts are psycho but very few seem to care.

 

But if the "other woman" comments thoughtfully and tactfully about her feelings for her lover, she is treated as the most despicable, vile person alive. Why? Because she's having an affair.

 

If we keep up these "scarlet letter" attacks, the only people left posting will be the "penis size" or "dick-lay" posters.

 

Then, everbody loses.

 

[Skittles]

Originally posted by bark

In fact, I've observed a huge double standard. Guys can post the most incredibly stupid, vile, racist/sexist crap about sex organ size or "dick-lay," for example, and many of the replies are of the " isn't this funny" or "boys will be boys" variety. The posts are psycho but very few seem to care.

 

But if the "other woman" comments thoughtfully and tactfully about her feelings for her lover, she is treated as the most despicable, vile person alive. Why? Because she's having an affair.

 

If we keep up these "scarlet letter" attacks, the only people left posting will be the "penis size" or "dick-lay" posters.

 

Then, everbody loses.

 

 

Well I can tell you this Bark, if this community becomes mostly "organ-size" and "dick-lay "speak, I will blow it off and move on to other sites...

 

Of course I will gladly stay in contact with those who add to the quality of my life, and those folks know who they are by now...

 

Let's hope the thinkers as well as the comics of this forum keep a healthy, balanced eco-system or skittles will skid-daddle....

[brelynnda]

Well said Bark. After all it's not the size of my married lovers penis that counts, It's the way he holds me and breathes me to life...............

[bark]

After all it's not the size of my married lovers penis that counts, It's the way he holds me and breathes me to life...............

 

I understand what you're saying, brelynnda. Do I ever.

[hurtinrealbad]

IT ALL SUCKS!!!!!!

[EnigmaXOXO]

In my opinion, LS posters must strike a balance between endorsing adultery and damning the adulterer. This is especially true for the "other woman" who is, I believe, a big LS consumer.

 

And in my opinion, LS posters should strike a balance between responding to the original topic and personally attacking another poster’s method of expression.

 

There is no one here more qualified than another to give advice or share opinions. And no one should be subjected to another’s self-serving ideas of how that advice should be distributed. Particularly when one’s “rally the troops around me for protection” motive is so blatantly obvious.

 

While sympathy and support can go a long way in validating one’s feelings, anyone familiar with addictive behaviors also understands that there is a fine line between offering sympathy and enabling the addict. Particularly when denial is such a large part of the dynamics. And when it comes to providing real help for those who share in an addiction, one must first learn how to help themselves out of the situation before offering guidance to another. Otherwise it is ‘support’ and ‘support’ only.

 

Furthermore, if someone is actively trying to encourage others to end their affairs or relationship addictions, but has still not taken the necessary steps to end their own, then others may interpret such responses as insincere, misleading and even hypocritical…however articulate the author.

 

A harsh, moralistic scolding tone, while a kick to the poster, drives many of us back underground and into the arms of the only sympathetic person, our lover. It's the law of unintended consequences in action.

 

Indeed, as with any addiction, the relationship addict will find any excuse to feed his/her addiction. I’m unhappy…just one more drink, one more pill, one more fling, one more phone call, one more fix. It’s not harshness which drives you back in the arms of your lover (whether it be a chemical or person), rather your inability to face your denial and confront the truth. And the only “consequences” are the result your own actions.

 

There has been much support, sound guidance, sympathy, hugs and chin-up speeches delivered to certain individuals who have come to this forum seeking advice for their addictions. Even by those who are more inclined to be straight-up rather than mollycoddle the addict or rally behind irresponsible behavior. But unfortunately, all the niceties seldom do little to encourage any change within them and a good swift “kick in the poster” is sometimes exactly what they need when they ignore advice to seek professional help. After all, as long as they are able to confess, apologize and rally support from sympathetic strangers on an anonymous forum, they can avoid extending the same courtesy to their “real life” spouses and families.

 

You may be smoozing some people, Bark…but you’re hardly fooling me.

[moimeme]

Well I can tell you this Bark, if this community becomes mostly "organ-size" and "dick-lay "speak, I will blow it off and move on to other sites...

 

I think if a person were to count up the numbers of posts and calculate percentages, you'd find that this has not been the case - or even remotely close. Nor will it be the case.

 

Some posters tend to glom onto a single issue and make that the subject of most, if not all, of their posts. Generally we then suggest that person seek counselling since that issue seems to be troubling them a great deal.

 

Sometimes, these people don't post their own question but rather use the opportunity to respond to others to mount their soapbox again and again.

 

Perhaps Bark could be persuaded to post his claims in a thread of his own and then we could deal with it directly instead of obliquely as part of our responses to other posters for a change.

[bark]

Go on-- attack the messenger, and ignore the message: Many women are afraid to post about their affairs because of the censorious responses their posts generate. The resultant fear and intimidation deters some (mostly "other women") from publicly seeking assistance. This "Scarlet Letter" intimidation deters even some Senior Members.

 

So moimeme and Enigma you may impugn my motives and psychologize me all you want. The bottom line is that a guy will receive a friendlier reception obsessing about his tiny penis or "dick-lay" than an "other woman' will receive discussing her strong feelings and attachments for her married lover.

What is it about affairs that causes even well meaning folks to pile on?

 

Perception is reality, my friends.

 

All I'm asking is lighten up on these people. And try not to be so defensive about a little constructive criticism. I'm sorry if I struck a nerve.

[moimeme]

Many women are afraid to post about their affairs because of the censorious responses their posts

 

You keep saying this. How do you know? Give stats, please.

 

And secondly - so? There are certain mores which are present in society. One has to do with the fact that affairs are not considered 'good' behaviour. People who indulge in them, then, ought not expect that everyone will accept their behaviour with open arms. What if someone posted that he was a habitual thief and had no intention of stopping? Or a fraud artist who'd stolen millions from old people? How's about the repeat drunk driver? That people don't want to face up to the fact that what they have done is not acceptable is nobody's fault but their own.

 

I echo Enigma's statement that 'support' does not mean enabling. Sometimes 'support' is supporting someone to take a different course of action.

 

Nobody is condemning these people, Bark, and you just don't seem to get that. We are saying their actions are wrong. And yes, we have to have some sort of ruler against which to judge people's actions - and they must, as well. And if people don't or can't face the consequences of their actions, that is unfortunate but it is not our job to mollycoddle people who are actively engaged in doing damage to existing relationships and encourage them to continue those actions, IMHO.

[bark]

In the 3 months I've been a member , I've received at least half a dozen PMs from lurkers who were afraid to post because of the expected negative reaction. I've also been PMed by women who posted , who felt beat-up by many of the responses. I've also been told by two Senior Members that they are afraid to post. Hell, I'm almost afraid to post anymore.

 

The evidence is anecdotal and impressionistic. I know that. I'm not for handing out licenses to cheat, but we all should try to ease up on the tone of our responses.

 

Our goal is to convince people to stop hurting themselves, and others. I believe that, at least with the "other woman," honey is more effective than vinegar.

 

That's all I'm saying.

[moimeme]

the tone of our responses

 

I don't recall any poster ever insulting or berating one of these people. However, it is common for someone who feels guilty about something to be hypersensitive to anything which further triggers their own guilt. Quite often, these 'other women' are hanging onto false hopes that their men will eventually divorce the wives and leave, and people tell them that it is foolish to hang on to such hopes. However, people don't want to hear the truth, sometimes.

 

If they've already lurked and they don't like the advice given here to people in similar situations, then maybe they aren't ready to deal with the sort of information they'll get here. I think it's unrealistic, for the most part, for people to expect to come here to confess an affair and hope people will tell them 'what you've done is not a bad thing - here, we'll help you to figure out how to continue doing it'. And, frankly, Bark, I think you're trying to assuage your own guilt by assuring others in the same situation that they've not done anything terribly wrong. There's my free analysis for ya!

[yogi-mon]

Anyone who has been in an affair before knows that certain elements of it

are unlike typical relationships.

 

Often, sexual encounters are much more intense because of the part about

being "bad"

 

You typically dont get that kind of sexual satisfaction in a monogomous

relationship. Sometimes you will get different kinds which are just as

good, can be even better, - but - "bad" sex is umm.. good.

 

anyways, point is, I think that it all depends on what the circumstance is

every situation will infact be different.

[jenny]

luckily, i think we now have a healthy mix of the mollycoddlers and the judges. i use both terms ironically. there is no way we had any balance of perspective about the issue before bark. i think almost every regular here (myself included) vented down with charged condemnation against anyone who has either made a mistake or a choice we don't necessary understand or like.

 

i've come down off a mount to rally at the infidels too - i frankly don't understand why people do it still. i've never been there, so i used to have a certain amount of disdain for those who have; now i just think they know about things that i probably never will.

 

now i just won't post about it anymore - i have no experience with it - so what right have i to tell anyone how they should feel or behave in a situation? why would i possess any authority on the topic?

 

it's an interesting debate. i'm a relativist at heart, and what i use as a ruler for my actions may not be the ruler that other cultures, individuals, or other domestic situations use.

 

i know enough about the world to know that i know very little about moral or ethical systems different from my own.

 

what might be seen as a mollcoddian compromise, on my part at least, is finally an admission of ignorance and an unwillingness to dismiss any perspective out of hand.

 

cheers,

[moimeme]

vented down with charged condemnation against anyone who has either made a mistake or a choice we don't necessary understand or like.

 

I honestly think that's overstating it a fair bit, not to mention oversimplifying it egregiously. Many of us have wrestled with these issues. I have been asked to participate in affairs. I didn't just decide it was a 'choice I didn't understand or like'. I considered it from my perspective but what stopped me was the understanding that someone who is cheated on suffers badly and I wanted no part of causing that sort of suffering.

 

To simply dismiss those of us who don't slaver at the feet of people who have affairs as those who have given no due thought or consideraton to the issue and only respond from knee-jerk impulse is facile and unfair. Somehow, the person who has fallen, however unwittingly (!) into an affair is raised to some sort of heroism while people who have chosen not to take that path are considered to be thoughtless automatons responding to preset moral codes. This is not the case and I'm a little tired of hearing it.

[cdn]

Perception is reality, my friends.

 

 

Hey - you stole my mantra! :-)

[bark]

To simply dismiss those of us who don't slaver at the feet of people who have affairs as those who have given no due thought or consideration to the issue and only respond from knee-jerk impulse is facile and unfair. Somehow, the person who has fallen, however unwittingly (!) into an affair is raised to some sort of heroism while people who have chosen not to take that path are considered to be thoughtless automatons responding to preset moral codes. This is not the case and I'm a little tired of hearing it.

 

 

moimeme, take a deep breath and listen: No one and I mean no one is asking you to "slaver at the feet" of people in affairs. (I must admit that it is an interesting image.)

 

No one is asking you to beatify adulterers.

 

I just believe that the LoveShack tent should be big enough to include, in jenny's immortal words, both judges and mollycoddlers. A diversity of opinion is a social good in this advice environment.

 

But what I've noticed about the judges is that they do not take kindly to being judged. Well, get over it. Because if I believe someone is getting filleted because she expresses heartfelt love for her married lover, I'll defend her right to express these feelings.

 

Finally, my attitude has nothing to do with expiation, and everything to do with the defense of the human heart, despite its imperfections.

[bark]

Hey - you stole my mantra! :-)

 

 

Damn, you caught me.

[Samson]

Really had to wade through this one to understand what relationship the original thread had with most posts after #21. The train seemed to jump track at;

 

"I completely agree, no matter how much sh*t I take from certain parties for it."

 

One wonders: why add the phrase after simply agreeing? What "sh*t? What "certain parties?" Why should the entire board care? Why, indeed, should the poster care?

 

There seems to be a festering feud in the ether.

 

We can only hope it doesn't waste much more of the little time I have to enjoy the more thoughtful, and often witty threads this otherwise excellent dis-board offers.

[bark]

There seems to be a festering feud in the ether.

 

 

I apologize to you, Samson, and other folks, for derailing this thread.

[lostforwords]

everything to do with the defense of the human heart, despite its imperfections.

 

Unfortuantely, the human heart is not equipped with a "Moralistic On/Off" switch.

 

The point being that everyone is human.... if people want to judge adulterers as selfish, then so be it...... why or how in the hell can ANYONE for that matter, tell a poster what they are doing is morally wrong..... your morals perhaps.... everyone has morals.... to base having an affair right up there with lets say for example kicking a cat across the room is ridiculous (sometimes thats how i percieve some LS'ers as comparing the 2)..... even an adulterer KNOWS that is so wrong..... im so sick of hearing how adulterers are selfish, morally wrong, etc.... i guess it goes the same as the spouse who ignores or doesnt want to work on the problem etc...... are just as selfish.... until someone can show me a perfect relationship.... I see both sides of the fence.... cuz i have been on both sides of the fence..... affairs hurt and can have devastating affects .... however they can be exciting, and fulfilling...... both eventually having side affects... as well as end results.... I guess the point being and reality is.... there are always going to be 2 sides...

 

Back to Quanke..... again lol I AGREE!!!

 

Hey Lost for Words...glad to see you out today..

 

Yeh I have been on and off all weekend, doing the christmas thing out of town thank god my aunt has a puter!!!.. lol and thanks skittles!!!

[Skittles]

Back to Quanke..... again lol I AGREE!!!

 

Hey Lost, I guess the thread took a couple of twists and turns...yes indeedy...

 

Would it be considered poor form to agree with my original post that all parties involved in an affair usually get doo-doo?

 

MY statement seems insignificant and oversimplified compared to some of the other posts...so well-written, passionate and convincing...Is my tongue in cheek...? I don't think anyone cares if it is..