How many women here will admit they are a misandrist?

[threebyfate]

Wow - that's some imagery. It sounds like something out of the Twilight Zone.

Thanks. Sometimes the theme music plays on and on, while on LS, reading posts.

 

Btw, I loved your previous two posts, ones that I can easily identify with, as a woman.

 

I don't personally feel there's an conspiracy against men or women, by either gender, just a matter of perception and understanding that there are individuals involved, with individual actions and reactions. There really is only one constant, in a scenario of generalized gender victimhood.

 

It's very Michael Moorish! I can imagine him filming a documentary called "Matriarchs Keep Nice Mens Down"!

Edited January 10, 2010 by threebyfate

[Stockalone]

Wow, now that's a perfect way to describe it!

 

You never thought of that before?

 

 

If Woggle would lay down his arms and ask the women to lift their visors, he would see they're not women at all, just his own face behind every visor.

 

Maybe, but the problem is that in Woggle's head (or anyone else fighting a war, perceived or real) the threat is real and it's too much of a risk to let down his guard.

 

His scenario would be the following:

 

Woggle lays down his arms, the black Queen would take a step forward and run him through with her sword, then lift her visor and the last thing the dying Woggle would see would be his mother staring down at him, grinning.

[threebyfate]

Woggle lays down his arms, the black Queen would take a step forward and run him through with her sword, then lift her visor and the last thing the dying Woggle would see would be his mother staring down at him, grinning.

But Woggle has become his mother, so it's Woggle who he sees.

[Stockalone]

But Woggle has become his mother, so it's Woggle who he sees.

 

That is possible. But it don't think it won't happen anyway, him letting down his guard.

 

But whether it is Woggle or other people who struggle in similar ways (it doesn't have to be gender war related), getting them to let down their guard is difficult. In some cases impossible.

 

It requires a leap of faith, you can't rationally convince them. And I don't exclude myself here, if I don't believe that things will become better, I go with "better the devil you know than the devil you don't".

[threebyfate]

That is possible. But it don't think it won't happen anyway, him letting down his guard.

 

But whether it is Woggle or other people who struggle in similar ways (it doesn't have to be gender war related), getting them to let down their guard is difficult. In some cases impossible.

 

It requires a leap of faith, you can't rationally convince them. And I don't exclude myself here, if I don't believe that things will become better, I go with "better the devil you know than the devil you don't".

I'm going to focus on Woggle, since this is his thread. Do you believe his thought processes are healthy and realistic, whereby his belief that "all" or "most" women are misandrists?

[lord alfred douglas]

Are you a white supremacist? Because they use this same line of reasoning to justify their racism against minorities as well.

He is a white supremacist

[tami-chan]

He is a white supremacist

 

oh really...how amusing

[lord alfred douglas]

oh really...how amusing

Can you put up that picture where youre wearing pigtails again?

[Taramere]

As somebody who has been posting to different forums for a decade now. One thing I have noticed in the last few years is an increase in post by these "whiners who blame women and society for all their problems"

 

I would only see them now and then years ago. Nowadays any forum that has a section dealing with relationships always has a few and even in forums without one will have multiple ones pipe in whenever there is a topic concerning relationships.

 

In the past 10 years there has been a fairly hefty increase in the number of people who use the Internet. Ten years ago, if you'd asked me whether I posted on a message board I'd have given you a blank look and wondered what you were talking about.

 

 

I would think at some point people would stop and wonder if it really is all about whining about not getting laid or is there something more since there seems to be more and more of them all throughout the internet as time goes on and that it is NOT a great idea to marginalize whatever issue they are having as simple whining and that they should just stfu.

 

Let me give you some background to my personal feelings about this. Like Meerkat Stew, I'm a lawyer and I've done a lot of work in litigation. So from time to time I have encountered the wonderful phenomenon known as the Vexatious Litigant. A breed that has interested the psychiatric profession in the past, and is beginning to do so again now.

 

The whiners on message boards sing the same tune that vexatious litigants do. What it boils down to is that they can't deal with the problems life throws at them (at all of us, from time to time) in a proportionate manner. They become obsessed with the notions of being victims, clogging up courts in their quest for justice over matters which - from the perspective of those working in the courts - are an utter nonsense. Vexatious, in other words. A lawyer can get struck off for representing someone in a vexatious action.

 

What causes someone to behave in that way? I don't know. It's a matter for the psychology profession. From what I understand it usually relates to some grievance from the past that they've never been able to let go of...and have carried from one situation to another. As it travels, it grows bigger and bigger. More and more stress is caused to whichever unfortunate party the grievance is aimed at.

 

Courts are great playgrounds for vexatious litigants, but I can think of another setting in which they'd be able to stretch their legs and have at it. One just like this. An audience of potentially hundreds to witness their gripes and their victimhood. No chance of them having to fork out any expenses....the worst thing that can happen to them is that they'll get banned, and then they can just return under a different ID.

 

These people have always existed. The Internet simply gives them a wider potential audience. But does it help people like that to get a hearing? Some individuals descend into a spiral of vexatious litigation after one courtroom experience. It sparks them off, because they become addicted to the notion of a roomfull of lawyers and a judge listening to their gripes. It makes them feel validated....and the more that gripe feels validated, the bigger it gets.

 

I figured this would have started happening after George Sodini went nuts but not yet I suppose.

 

I've posted on this forum for more than 5 years (Jesus!). Formerly under a different name. I've been part of many other people who've attempted to give people like this a fair hearing and sympathetic advice, despite the insulting commentary towards my gender. It makes no difference. If you look at Woggle's posting history, you'll see a story there. People have tried very hard to be understanding in the past, but in the end they simply feel sucked into a toxic whirl leading down an Alice in Wonderland rabbithole to nowhere.

 

The moment you start attributing these people's problems to society, you worsen the problem...because that's exactly what they're feeding off. The idea that they're a victim, and that someone else is always to blame. They drain people like emotional vampires, and give nothing in return - except headaches and stress. So of course people end up just saying STFU, stop whining - go and sort out your life. Plenty of people here are very empathic, but there's only so far any sane person will plummet down that rabbithole with an incurably querulous individual.

 

So I suppose they go off to other sites filled with likeminded people, and they fuel eachother....then they come back in added numbers to teach the population here a lesson. It's a fairly regular cycle here.

[tami-chan]

Can you put up that picture where youre wearing pigtails again?

 

LOL.....you remember...!

[Stockalone]

I'm going to focus on Woggle, since this is his thread.

 

Yes, I understand that. The reason I mentioned it is because it sometimes sounds like Woggle is the only one with issues. He usually invites this response with his sweeping generalizations though, but I still thought it was worth mentioning.

 

 

Do you believe his thought processes are healthy and realistic, whereby his belief that "all" or "most" women are misandrists?

 

It is not realistic from my POV. Basically all women I have personally encountered weren't misandrists. There were some with unpleasant or incompatible personalities, but most were good, decent women. There were very few who I would call misandrists.

 

Woggle's experience has been influenced by his encounters with women, which were different than mine.

 

Slightly OT, but I have issues with female MD's. I had a few negative experiences and since then I don't trust them anymore. If I have a choice, I request a male doctor. I have a phobia of doctors and hospitals in general, so I don't like/trust male doctors a lot more either. But I feel less uneasy with a male MD. That's not rational either. But it is my reality.

 

In Woggle's case, I do think that his marriage must suffer because of his ideas about how women truly are. Yet he is still married, so I don't know how unhealthy it is. And he says that his wife is a good person, which I am sure he believes. Otherwise he wouldn't have married her. It would be interesting to see how she thinks about all that.

 

I have tried to make sense of what drives Woggle in various threads, but never found an explanation. Many people have tried to show him how his view is skewed, but to no avail. Woggles reality is his reality, there is nothing we can do about that. I can understand why he is reluctant or unwilling to take that leap of faith to no longer believe in his reality.

[Rhythmic]

Epic post is epic

 

 

The problem I have with believing that all of them are simple attention seekers who refuse to believe its their fault and will never seek to make a personal change is the fact that I have also seen this exact same issues bought up from certain other themed forums.

 

Pick up artist forums.

 

I would say that the vast majority of guys who get into those forums and lifestyles do so for the very same reasons all these "whiners" are posting about on this forum. The only difference being that instead of focusing on women in general are a waste of time they focus more on trying to change themselves into men who can go out and charm as many women as possible. I read and posted for years on a lot of the pua forums and these type of people easily make up a good 40 percent chunk of the type of guy who would also post there.

 

The same basic issues are being talked about yet both groups doing damn near opposite paths from the same core beliefs. There is also yet another third group that seems to have figured out the same core issues as the last two but yet it sends them on an even different path. Guys who travel to places like asia and south america and eventually relocate there who sing endless praises of how foreign women are so much better than women in america.

 

 

Three groups all who will initially gripe about the same basic issues who all took three completely separate paths? They all aren't attention seekers who just want to whine and bash women and do nothing as the last two groups are people who are doing something about it.

 

None of this speaks to you? That none of that might not be a coincidence? Or are all of them just whiners even though two of the groups aren't whiners and are doing something about it?

Edited January 10, 2010 by Rhythmic

[norajane]

Three groups all who will initially gripe about the same basic issues who all took three completely separate paths? They all aren't attention seekers who just want to whine and bash women and do nothing as the last two groups are people who are doing something about it.

 

None of this speaks to you? That none of that might not be a coincidence? Or are all of them just whiners even though two of the groups aren't whiners and are doing something about it?

The theme across the groups that strikes me is their feelings of being powerless with women.

 

What you don't see in any of those groups are men who are happy with the women in their lives or successful in developing fulfilling long term relationships with women. The whiners feel impotent because they can't get any women or not the ones they want, the pick up artist wannabes feel powerless because they don't have all women wanting them, and the ones who buy brides overseas idealize a patriarchal lifestyle where men are in control and wifey admires them and caters to them and needs them in order to survive.

 

Except for Woggle, who has a great relationship with a smart, independent woman but can't let go of his childhood with a nasty mother who should have been thrown in jail for child abuse.

[lord alfred douglas]

The theme across the groups that strikes me is their feelings of being powerless with women.

Thats the core truth, but that powerlessness comes from a sense that there are far more expectations of men and that men are being objectified

 

I think theres a lot of truth to it. Younger women tend to be worse,but even older women can be pretty ruthless

 

A man often has to be a certain height, have a certain size schmekel, make a certain amount of money (usually more than the woman), be good looking and in good health and nowadays middle aged women want the man to be younger to boot

 

So maybe these guys can be a little unfair but there are some legitimate gripes and just because theyre griping online I dont think its fair to marginilize them as George Soldinis

[threebyfate]

I have tried to make sense of what drives Woggle in various threads, but never found an explanation. Many people have tried to show him how his view is skewed, but to no avail. Woggles reality is his reality, there is nothing we can do about that. I can understand why he is reluctant or unwilling to take that leap of faith to no longer believe in his reality.

I agree that no one can change Woggle, unless he wants to change. I disagree with acceptance of his unhealthy coping skills.

 

To validate or accept it, is to enable it. Not a hope in hell!

[threebyfate]

Three groups all who will initially gripe about the same basic issues who all took three completely separate paths? They all aren't attention seekers who just want to whine and bash women and do nothing as the last two groups are people who are doing something about it.

 

None of this speaks to you? That none of that might not be a coincidence? Or are all of them just whiners even though two of the groups aren't whiners and are doing something about it?

There's failure to mention the vast majority of men, some attractive, some wealthy, others not, who are proceeding through life with their own personal, relatively balanced, style. When you factor in the far higher percentage of these men, it reduces the three components that you reference, down to negligible. The lowest common denominator does not reflect a clear picture of the whole.

[Rhythmic]

The theme across the groups that strikes me is their feelings of being powerless with women.

 

What you don't see in any of those groups are men who are happy with the women in their lives or successful in developing fulfilling long term relationships with women. The whiners feel impotent because they can't get any women or not the ones they want, the pick up artist wannabes feel powerless because they don't have all women wanting them, and the ones who buy brides overseas idealize a patriarchal lifestyle where men are in control and wifey admires them and caters to them and needs them in order to survive.

 

Except for Woggle, who has a great relationship with a smart, independent woman but can't let go of his childhood with a nasty mother who should have been thrown in jail for child abuse.

 

 

 

That was a hell of a lot of unfair generalizations. Considering I was in the second group. The "pick up artist wannabees" I can tell you it didn't come at all from wanting all women to want me. In fact very few men who would post there ever came off as being in that camp never stayed for long anyway.

 

I got in because I at least wanted to be able to be good enough for at least some girl after being rejected by ever girl up to the age of 21. 21 and a virgin and never even had a real kiss. I never went on to hurt women or be a player and try to get all women to want me and I never mistreated any of them. I only met one of the third group personally and he didn't "buy" his wife and he is hardly some monster who is trying to keep her barefoot and in the kitchen.

 

Those type of comments go right back to what meerkat stew was saying in that post and especially his last paragraph. In fact you just went and proved his point.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Rhythmic

[Taramere]

None of this speaks to you? That none of that might not be a coincidence? Or are all of them just whiners even though two of the groups aren't whiners and are doing something about it?

 

Nope, I'm afraid it doesn't tell me anything of import. I realise there are Internet PUA sites like the ones you mention, and I know the common issues they dwell on. The talk of foreign brides being better, etc. However, I don't see the existence of those sites as being a reflection on life in general. No more than the existence of the militant feminist sites Woggle likes to look at represent the views of the majority of women.

 

It's the Internet. There's a place for everyone, and like minds will tend to congregate. I think when they do, there's a temptation for them to regard themselves as some kind of socially significant movement. I read some of those sites round about the time of the George Sodini thing, and the responses were predictable. The more reasonable posters regarded him as a nutter, but others seemed to see him as some kind of hero or victim.

 

How valid is the opinion of anyone who adopts that stance in response to a mentally ill murderer? For me, it isn't valid. It's too suggestive of the person being irrational and disturbed in their thinking...and to me that is a personal problem rather than a social problem generally. There are plenty of resources for people to get help. Professional services that can help someone who finds it difficult to relate to and get along with other people.

 

You'll note that on this forum, people are generally swift to advocate that kind of help to anyone who seems very disturbed in their thinking. The PUA forums aren't so inclined. They tend to operate in this belief system that they have all the answers, and sometimes they will validate and normalise behaviour that would probably trouble the psychological professions quite significantly.

 

So naturally, they're attractive to people who feel it would be stigmatising to seek professional help. Who want to be told that they're normal and healthy...and that it's society which is all wrong. I've talked to a few guys I know about forums like that, and they just find it ridiculous and funny. But to the men who are immersed in those forums, the philosophies they push become some kind of guiding force.

 

Perhaps they're generally weak characters, or maybe they're people going through a personal crisis that makes them vulnerable. Some people join the army, some join a nationalist movement, some join a PUA message board. Fulfilling a need to be part of some socially meaningful movement - even if it isn't really.

 

If there are academic papers out on men's studies, I'm more than happy to read some of them. If psychologists and sociologists have done studies on the phenomenon of men complaining about women on message boards, I'd certainly take an interest.

 

However, vague commentary about single men complaining about women on message boards being suggestive of some significant societal shift isn't terribly convincing. The George Sodini situation was a horrible tragedy for the women in those gyms and their families, and it's unpleasant that members of the PUA community have seized upon it to promote their belief systems.

 

If there's any societal issue people should focus on, in the aftermath of a tragedy like that, it's the ease with which any angry Jo can get his hands on a gun.

[threebyfate]

Everyone in this discussion is validating his comments once you opt to respond to them. In order for something to not be validated it must be ignored, responding even in retalliation is a form of validation.

Yes and no. Don't forget that Woggle isn't the only member reading this thread. If nothing else, it might possibly help someone a tiny bit, a year down the line. If so, it's worth it.

[norajane]

That was a hell of a lot of unfair generalizations. Considering I was in the second group. The "pick up artist wannabees" I can tell you it didn't come at all from wanting all women to want me. In fact very few men who would post there ever came off as being in that camp never stayed for long anyway.

 

I got in because I at least wanted to be able to be good enough for at least some girl after being rejected by ever girl up to the age of 21. 21 and a virgin and never even had a real kiss. I never went on to hurt women or be a player and try to get all women to want me and I never mistreated any of them. I only met one of the third group personally and he didn't "buy" his wife and he is hardly some monster who is trying to keep her barefoot and in the kitchen.

 

Those type of comments go right back to what meerkat stew was saying in that post and especially his last paragraph. In fact you just went and proved his point.

 

No, I proved that I feel that way and hold those beliefs about those three categories of men, not that ALL women feel that way or hold those beliefs.

 

Just like you want me to accept that you aren't the kind of pick up artists who wants to be a player with many women, and are a unique individual, I expect you to accept that ALL women don't think, feel, believe the same way, nor do we have a secret society bent on persecuting men.

 

You don't like generalizations? Don't be so quick to employ them against others, and don't be so sure you're right about what ALL or most women are like or think.

[Rhythmic]

I expect you to accept that ALL women don't think, feel, believe the same way, nor do we have a secret society bent on persecuting men.

 

You don't like generalizations? Don't be so quick to employ them against others, and don't be so sure you're right about what ALL or most women are like or think.

 

 

 

But I don't think all think and feel like all women are all persecuting men? Can you point to where I thought all women hate men? Which generalization did I employ in that post? You are the only one jumping the gun. Where did the prejudice of pick up artist wannabes only just want all women to want them come from? Why is it that a guy who marries a foreign woman is a guy who whats some sort of extreme patriarchal lifestyle. This was meerkat stews point. Where does that come from?

Edited January 10, 2010 by Rhythmic

[Mary3]

Woggle reminds me of one of the kids I used to ride on the School Bus with..

 

He was a sullen unfriendly kid who sat at the back of bus. Our bus took routes through predominantly wealthy neighborhoods ( while our own stops were in poorer ones ) and when the wealthy kids would climb off the bus he would yell " Capitalist " !! at the kids.

 

He did this everyday.

[lord alfred douglas]

But I don't think all think and feel like all women are all persecuting men? Can you point to where I thought all women hate men? Which generalization did I employ in that post? You are the only one jumping the gun. Where did the prejudice of pick up artist wannabes only just want all women to want them come from? Why is it that a guy who marries a foreign woman is a guy who whats some sort of extreme patriarchal lifestyle. This was meerkat stews point. Where does that come from?

Well is fine to marry a foreign woman, but if youre doing the mail order bride things its a bit questionable

[carhill]

Online dating in a foreign country is the same as in one's own country, except a passport and sometimes a visa are required. I personally know a number of LS'ers (not US citizens) who are in LTR's with people from other countries and would in no way consider their relationships to be 'mail order'.

 

It's a small world and this is another gender stereotype (mail order *brides*) that needs to go. BTW, all the LS'ers I'm talking about are female.

[lord alfred douglas]

Online dating in a foreign country is the same as in one's own country, except a passport and sometimes a visa are required. I personally know a number of LS'ers (not US citizens) who are in LTR's with people from other countries and would in no way consider their relationships to be 'mail order'.

 

It's a small world and this is another gender stereotype (mail order *brides*) that needs to go. BTW, all the LS'ers I'm talking about are female.

Yeah, but there are a lot of mail order bride networks out there

 

I see Cuban girls selling themselves online and I feel sorry for the guys that will get suckered into that one, because I can tell you when they get to this country they arent going to play submissive little wifey a day longer than it takes to get a green card or citizenship or whatever