Wondering if it is over or if I am being unfair

[drpepper43]

Background info: I am 38 and my wife is 40. Two kids, ages 7 and 3. We have known each other 11 years, married for 8 of 'em. Been in MC for approx. 3 months.

 

My wife and I are the best of friends, but every since our first child came along, she has changed a great deal. You can see the whole thread here if you want: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2420554#post2420554

 

Basically we have slowly drifted apart over the years and only within the last year or so have I really seen it. She sleeps with the boys or in separate rooms. We take separate vacations because of lack of similar interests. We are rarely intimate and most of the time, lead separate lives... she will go out with her friends, our kids moms on playdates, or family far more than any time with just us.

 

On the flip side, she is a wonderful person and a great friend. She has become quite the career woman and certainly has done well for herself. We have made good financial decisions together and are doing pretty well in that department. And we have wonderful kids.

 

We just don't spend time together. Most of the time, I am alone.

 

At the beginning of the year I sensed stuff was wrong, and tried to improve myself. I lost weight and am at the lowest weight since she has known me. I am active with sports, active with my boys, and especially lately have really tried to step it up with regard to housework and such. Trying to be the change I seek, in other words. This didn't really have any effect on anything except that she noticed I was improving.

 

I met a woman through one of my activities and we kept in touch. Nothing physical - I would never do that to my wife - but it has awoken things in me that I haven't felt in a long time. And it's not even her per se, it's just having a female activity partner who shares a lot of my views and actually seems to enjoy my company is amazing. I have tried to keep boundries up as best I can, but to be fair, it's probably going to become an EA soon (if it isn't already) and I know once that happens, it's over.

 

We have been in MC for a while and I guess slowly things are improving. She spends 1/2 hour a night with me about 4 nights of the week... which is a pretty big improvement over what it was before. And all the other time that I am alone, of course, I do my separate activities which include the gal mentioned above and it just makes things difficult.

 

There is a pretty big part of me that thinks we are done. I mean, when she tells me her plans for the week, I am happy to hear of the nights where I have the house to myself. Which is so sad - I actually enjoy my time away more than my time with her on some level. I know the first step is to get rid of the gal above, but on the other hand, it's not her in particular I'm attracted to as much as the idea of living my life with my activities and sharing it with someone else. If it isn't her, it'll eventually be someone else.

 

But then, there is the part of me that thinks of the kids. The stability. The fear of being alone. I made a vow to her, and she is a friend, maybe "them's the breaks" and I just have to do my best to be happy under the circumstances.

 

It's so confusing and any advice is appreciated...thanks.

[frozensprouts]

have you tried telling your wife what has been going on with this other lady? maybe you could tell her how doing things with her seems to be a lot of fun, and give your wife the chance to see if she enjoys participating in them too... have you tried finding something new that you and your wife can do together?

 

 

no offense intended, but how much of your "negative view" on your relationship with your wife is due to the "positive view' you have of your new friend?

[angie2443]

You're either in your marriage or you're out. With this "friend" of yours, your out. If you want to make the marriage work, you're going have to end the friendship and invest the energy spent there on your wife. If you feel the relationship's over, leave. It's as simple as that.

 

For the record, you are doing the children no favors by staying in a marriage that is broken. They look at you and the wife as a model for how relationships work. They see two people living together but not truely together. Don't think you're fooling them.

[drpepper43]

My wife knows about this gal, I have told her that I have confided in her quite a bit about our problems and that I feel like we have become abnormally close. She has a good idea of how much time I spend at my activities so she is not a secret... I mean obviously I do not go out of my way to bring her up over and over, but she is aware.

 

My wife and I have few activities in common, it is a real problem. I have been working out, playing indoor soccer, softball, running, or video games at home. She prefers socializing over a glass of wine with other moms or coworkers. The activity we used to have in common was getting out of the house and going hiking or exploring the city or whatever... but once the kids came, this stopped happening. Which didn't leave us with much.

 

No offense taken and it is a very valid question. I am very sure the idea of having an activity partner and someone that would enjoy intimacy and the like is very distracting from the view with my wife. I am not really sure it's the view of the gal I met. She represents a chance at that life but I have no delusions that she is absolutely the one for me. If I had to, I could easily just stop that activity and that would eliminate her from my life completely... I mean, it'd be very sad that I had to do this, but I could. And what happens when the next gal that shares my activity views comes along? Sigh.

[drpepper43]

One other thing, for the sake of clarity, meeting the other gal is very new - we met within the couple of months. Our problems have been going on for years.

 

In other words, the gal did not cause these problems. She is a symptom of something else.

[angie2443]

You have two young children. How many family activities do you do and how often? Do you feel like a family or just four people living together?

[drpepper43]

You have two young children. How many family activities do you do and how often? Do you feel like a family or just four people living together?

 

The kids have always been attached to their mom, and she to them. My oldest is 7 and she still sleeps in his bed with him (alternating with my youngest i imagine) while I sleep alone. She makes playdate plans every weekend with other moms that turn out to be giant mommy/kid-fests. I am invited to these playdates, but I would be the only guy there. Bedtime is 8pm, they stall (and she enables them) till 10pm plus every night.

 

I carve out time with my boys, but much like the dynamic, when I take them minigolfing or bowling or whatever, my wife usually uses the time to stay home for herself.

 

To answer your question, I am very attached to my boys. I do feel like their dad. With regard to my wife, I feel like I'm third on the totem pole, next to the boys and her job.

 

For example, at the marriage councellor, I told her I thought we needed to spend more time together. Because it meant that I'd have less time with my other friends (i.e. other gal), and more time with her. I suggested 1/2 hour every night reserved for just us. Her answer, "I'm not sure how feasible it is, how would we work it in with our other priorities?"

[Natureofbeast]

You said your wife knows of this other relationship–that you have told her. Did your wife appear threatened or jealous-angry even, in response to your being candid to her about?

[TinyLee222]

My wife knows about this gal, I have told her that I have confided in her quite a bit about our problems and that I feel like we have become abnormally close. She has a good idea of how much time I spend at my activities so she is not a secret... I mean obviously I do not go out of my way to bring her up over and over, but she is aware.

 

 

How does your wife feel about this? I know if it were me and I was

invested in my marriage I would be livid that my husband was confiding

in another woman about "our problems. OTOH, she may have already

checked out of the marriage and doesn't care. Is it possible that

your wife is having an affair? I know you say she does alot with the

kids on the weekends. Her lack of interest and minimal time spent with

you is troubleing. Have you asked her point blank if there is anyone

else? Something just doesn't add up. Hope you get the answers you

need to make a decision about your future.

 

Lee

[angie2443]

First, you need to decide if you're going to give your marriage a go or not. If you can't figure that out, then your marriage will die a slow, painful death. If you decide it's over, do the kind thing and tell your wife. This way both of you will be free to move on and find people to share your lives with. If you want to make a go of your marriage, you're going to have to end your friendship with the other woman. There is absolutely no way that your marriage will survive with her in it. If you don't understand that, look around on these boards. Learn from what others have been through.

 

Second, if you decide to work on the marriage, you need to know what you can live with and what you can't and tell that to your wife. You need to be very specific. Let her know that if things don't change, you will end the marriage. If you decide to end the marriage, let her know why. Again, be specific. This way she's not left wondering what went wrong.

 

Third, your son, the seven year old, is getting to old to be sleeping with his mother. This is a habit that needs to be broken soon. If your wife won't do it, you may need to step in and take care of the issue.

[drpepper43]

You said your wife knows of this other relationship–that you have told her. Did your wife appear threatened or jealous-angry even, in response to your being candid to her about?

 

Yes I have told her. I have gone so far to say point blank that I was very sad because on some level, it was impossible for her to compete against the fantasy idea that she was starting to represent, and it was tearing me up.

 

I have told her that she doesn't spend time with me, and I go to my activities and she's there and it just makes us further apart.

 

She was not phased by it at all really, no anger or anything... in fact her words were, 'I never asked you to not talk to her.', implying I shouldn't stop on her account.

[drpepper43]

How does your wife feel about this? I know if it were me and I was

invested in my marriage I would be livid that my husband was confiding

in another woman about "our problems. OTOH, she may have already

checked out of the marriage and doesn't care. Is it possible that

your wife is having an affair? I know you say she does alot with the

kids on the weekends. Her lack of interest and minimal time spent with

you is troubleing. Have you asked her point blank if there is anyone

else? Something just doesn't add up. Hope you get the answers you

need to make a decision about your future.

 

It is not a secret and I tell her quite often. She is not phased by this. I almost think she thinks it might be valuable to me.

 

I do not know if she has checked out, but I don't think so. I just get this impression that she is perfectly happy with the way things are, or at least have been. She is aware and sad of the looming threat of divorce but she thinks I am in some phase that I'll just grow out of or something. I just don't get it.

 

I have thought about the affair angle but I don't think she would do that to me, it is very out of character for her and many times she has the boys with her anyway.

[drpepper43]

First, you need to decide if you're going to give your marriage a go or not. If you can't figure that out, then your marriage will die a slow, painful death. If you decide it's over, do the kind thing and tell your wife. This way both of you will be free to move on and find people to share your lives with. If you want to make a go of your marriage, you're going to have to end your friendship with the other woman. There is absolutely no way that your marriage will survive with her in it. If you don't understand that, look around on these boards. Learn from what others have been through.

 

Second, if you decide to work on the marriage, you need to know what you can live with and what you can't and tell that to your wife. You need to be very specific. Let her know that if things don't change, you will end the marriage. If you decide to end the marriage, let her know why. Again, be specific. This way she's not left wondering what went wrong.

 

Third, your son, the seven year old, is getting to old to be sleeping with his mother. This is a habit that needs to be broken soon. If your wife won't do it, you may need to step in and take care of the issue.

 

Thank you for your thoughts. I know deep down that I probably need to get rid of my friend and therefore my activity and it kills me. It doesn't seem fair. I'm lonely, so I find an activity... there happens to be a gal there so I can't see her OR do my activity, just so I can go home and be lonely. But you are probably right. I need to decide soon.

 

I made an appt. with an IC and we start tomorrow. maybe that will help. I'm hoping it will at least be a reality check for me.

 

I couldn't agree more with regard to my oldest son. I hope it doesn't come to that but it might.

[Boundary Problem]

You can only do so much in a marriage.

 

If the other spouse isn't invested, there is nothing you can do except drag them to marriage counselling to shake some sense into them.

 

At the end of the day those spouses know what they should be doing to keep that marriage alive and every day they CHOOSE not to. And every day they make that choice, they damage the relationship a little bit at a time.

 

So when you meet some fantastic activity partner, the issue is whether the marital relationship can still be salvaged or whether the other spouse's neglect of you caused it to be beyond fixing.

 

I think neglect is one of the number one reasons for marital breakdown. The absence of action causes harm = neglect.

 

And then you end up living as roommates until you can't take it anymore.

 

I wish you luck, I'm just saying look out for your own healthy life, because she doesn't seem to be meeting your essential basic needs, and she calls herself your wife.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

Sounds like nothing....

 

 

1. All you ask is for 30 minutes and that seems so difficult
   
2. The fact she sleeps every night in another room.
   
3. You have discussed the other woman to the MC.
   
4. She has put on weight, you have got in better shape.
   
5. Intimacy is missing
   
6. Too much time apart
   
7. No shared family activities
   

Red flag after red flag....

 

Sounds like you need a new MC and need to give an ultimatum.

[giotto]

welcome to my world... one thing... have you asked her if she still loves you? And do you love her? I'm saying this because she behaves like she's checked out of the relationship and she treats you like a friend... nothing wrong with that - some couple end up like that - but it's not what you want, is it?

 

Having been in your situation and in MC, I finally got told that "we were together just for the children" and that she "didn't love me like she used to"... I think it's very important for you to find out, because by only knowing where you really stand you will be able to rebuild your marriage or move on...

[angie2443]

"That being said, we have really drifted apart once the kids came into the picture. (I know this is normal to some degree.) We used to be very active, going out a lot, doing activities like hiking and such. When she became pregnant with my first son, she took it very easy (for good reason), and then when the baby was born, she was often quite tired. We did very little. My wife badly wanted a second boy for myriad reasons that aren't really important. She was pretty clear that she would be very unhappy without the second kid. I told her that I could be convinced, but I brought my concerns to the table - we don't go out, our intimacy has gone way down, etc. - and I blamed it largely on having a young kid. It did not really make sense to add another one to the mix, I said. Long story short, she ended up convincing me by saying if I put in the effort for a second kid, she would make the effort to get out with me more, spend more alone time with me, etc. etc. It was really important to her, and I believed her about her side of the deal, so she won and I have 2 wonderful boys."

 

I took this from your other thread. Is it possible that you didn't want the responsibility of children? I see this all the time. When the children come, the woman becomes a mother and the men want there single, child free lives back. You say your wife changed when the children came. Children do change your life forever. These are human biengs that you will care for untill they are 18. These are human biengs that require more than food, water and a pat on the head. They require a huge amount of time and energy. I'm wondering how much time you spend on your activities away from your family. Is it possible that the OW is so attractive to you because she isn't carring for your children? I'm not trying to be harsh. Your marriage may be past the point of saving anyway. I'm wondering what part you played in damaging your marriage. Most people, me included, are very good at pointing fingers at their partner and finding most of the fault in them. To fix a situation, or to avoid repeating the same relationship problems with someone else, you're going to have to see your part in your relationship failure. Good luck.

 

I forgot to say, I bolded that line in your post because it felt dismisive of your wife's feelings. Maybe the reasons weren't important to you. They must have important to her.

[drpepper43]

So when you meet some fantastic activity partner, the issue is whether the marital relationship can still be salvaged or whether the other spouse's neglect of you caused it to be beyond fixing.

 

And then you end up living as roommates until you can't take it anymore.

 

This is a lot of how I feel right here. Thank you for your thoughts, I appreciate it.

[drpepper43]

Sounds like nothing....

 

 

1. All you ask is for 30 minutes and that seems so difficult
   
2. The fact she sleeps every night in another room.
   
3. You have discussed the other woman to the MC.
   
4. She has put on weight, you have got in better shape.
   
5. Intimacy is missing
   
6. Too much time apart
   
7. No shared family activities
   

Red flag after red flag....

 

Sounds like you need a new MC and need to give an ultimatum.

 

I could not believe in counselling that 30 minutes seemed like such a big deal....that was such a kick in the teeth to be honest, I was crushed.

 

My wife has tried to make progress in some areas. She comes up to our bedroom once or twice a week now. We are trying to find activities together. But the truth is, we have been separate for so long that we have our own activities and we have little interest in each other's stuff any more.

[drpepper43]

welcome to my world... one thing... have you asked her if she still loves you? And do you love her? I'm saying this because she behaves like she's checked out of the relationship and she treats you like a friend... nothing wrong with that - some couple end up like that - but it's not what you want, is it?

 

Having been in your situation and in MC, I finally got told that "we were together just for the children" and that she "didn't love me like she used to"... I think it's very important for you to find out, because by only knowing where you really stand you will be able to rebuild your marriage or move on...

 

I think she loves me very much. I think she is very happy in the marriage. And to be 100% honest I don't know why... we do so little together and such.

 

I asked her once how she saw us and she said, "I see myself growing old with you." And I asked her, what are we doing on our journey to growing old? She did not have an answer to that.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I could not believe in counselling that 30 minutes seemed like such a big deal....that was such a kick in the teeth to be honest, I was crushed.

 

My wife has tried to make progress in some areas. She comes up to our bedroom once or twice a week now. We are trying to find activities together. But the truth is, we have been separate for so long that we have our own activities and we have little interest in each other's stuff any more.

 

My spouse does martial arts and teaches kick boxing and was just certified as a Personal Trainer. I envy and respect her for that..... I am happy for her new passion and encourage it. Activities are important and there really is no need to share everything.

 

The issue is she has no time for you, sleeps with the kids, is immersed to a scary point with the children and other mothers (where are their fathers, who should be in the same situation as you?).

 

How about just sitting watching TV together, being in the same room and interacting. Sounds that is sorely lacking too....

 

How about you get your 7 year old involved in activities for him and you? He is at the age he should be playing soccer, baseball, B-ball, Hockey.... And those should be your responsibility. Sounds to be honest you are lacking there. Things should be done as a family and does not always revolve around other mothers and kids....

 

Look I had the family bed, very involved with children too, one's that stay up late..... You can get past that if you have a marriage worth saving....

Edited December 30, 2009 by Toodamnpragmatic

[drpepper43]

"That being said, we have really drifted apart once the kids came into the picture. (I know this is normal to some degree.) We used to be very active, going out a lot, doing activities like hiking and such. When she became pregnant with my first son, she took it very easy (for good reason), and then when the baby was born, she was often quite tired. We did very little. My wife badly wanted a second boy for myriad reasons that aren't really important. She was pretty clear that she would be very unhappy without the second kid. I told her that I could be convinced, but I brought my concerns to the table - we don't go out, our intimacy has gone way down, etc. - and I blamed it largely on having a young kid. It did not really make sense to add another one to the mix, I said. Long story short, she ended up convincing me by saying if I put in the effort for a second kid, she would make the effort to get out with me more, spend more alone time with me, etc. etc. It was really important to her, and I believed her about her side of the deal, so she won and I have 2 wonderful boys."

 

I took this from your other thread. Is it possible that you didn't want the responsibility of children? I see this all the time. When the children come, the woman becomes a mother and the men want there single, child free lives back. You say your wife changed when the children came. Children do change your life forever. These are human biengs that you will care for untill they are 18. These are human biengs that require more than food, water and a pat on the head. They require a huge amount of time and energy. I'm wondering how much time you spend on your activities away from your family. Is it possible that the OW is so attractive to you because she isn't carring for your children? I'm not trying to be harsh. Your marriage may be past the point of saving anyway. I'm wondering what part you played in damaging your marriage. Most people, me included, are very good at pointing fingers at their partner and finding most of the fault in them. To fix a situation, or to avoid repeating the same relationship problems with someone else, you're going to have to see your part in your relationship failure. Good luck.

 

I forgot to say, I bolded that line in your post because it felt dismisive of your wife's feelings. Maybe the reasons weren't important to you. They must have important to her.

 

Thank you so much for your thoughts, I have thought long and hard about a lot of these things over the past months and I am not at all blameless in this.

 

The bolded line was meant to imply reasons that were not important to list in the post, sorry. Having a second kid was arguably the most important thing to her in our marriage, so yes, it was quite important to her. And if it weren't so important to her, I never would have agreed. Sorry for the confusion.

 

We have discussed my activities and I believe we have basically agreed that they have filled the spare time in my life, and as my wife pulled away to her time sinks, I filled up the time with mine. So while I do think time away with my activities may be a factor, I do not think I am any more at fault than she is on this point.

 

That being said, I have lots of faults in this marriage. I think I have been too passive. My wife is a very driven woman (I mean that in a good way) and she assumes the lead very often. We joke about it in fact - we basically got sent home from dance lessons because she would not let me lead! I would often defer to her and my personality style is to avoid conflict, so it basically led to a situation where most of my needs get swept aside in favor of hers. And I don't mean that backhandedly... over the last year, I have stood my ground and pointed out how I did not like our dynamic and it has caused arguments. I have started pointing out how she should not sleep with older boys, how I should be more important than her work, how she should not stay out till midnight or later without at least a phone call if she tells me she'll be home at 10pm, etc. With mixed results.

 

So I guess it is no wonder she is happy... she has her 2 kids and her dream home and her dream job and her husband at home but out of her way. And likewise, why I am unhappy. This is my running theory anyway... I've actually told her this... and apologized for not standing up for myself more because I know it is leading to resentment now.

 

I think on some level, it provides hope though. A separation for a while to miss each other, and a willingness to regroup under a more equal dynamic might work. I dunno. I am starting to see an IC beginning this evening and this is what I hope to discuss.

[drpepper43]

The issue is she has no time for you, sleeps with the kids, is immersed to a scary point with the children and other mothers (where are their fathers, who should be in the same situation as you?).

 

How about just sitting watching TV together, being in the same room and interacting. Sounds that is sorely lacking too....

 

How about you get your 7 year old involved in activities for him and you? He is at the age he should be playing soccer, baseball, B-ball, Hockey.... And those should be your responsibility. Sounds to be honest you are lacking there. Things should be done as a family and does not always revolve around other mothers and kids....

 

You know the funny thing about what you said is that, when I have confronted my wife about sleeping with the boys, she said, "Who have you talked to? Because all my friends sleep with their boys too." And I think to myself, what planet am I living on, this cannot be normal. You mean all these other fathers don't sleep with their wives either??

 

We can watch TV together, it is probably the one thing we can do. She loves watching TV and I can tolerate it in short doses. I feel like a slug when I watch TV though. I do not like just sitting there and not being active or at least engaging my mind somehow. But I suppose it's a start and we have done that for some of our half-hour things.

 

My boy is a green belt in karate and plays soccer and tee-ball. We all go to his games. His birthday is coming up and I have arranged everything. I also arranged the entire Christmas dinner for the families. I do appreciate your thoughts and have thought similar - I try to make sure I am being a good husband and father as best I can. Most of my activities take place on weekends or after the kids are in bed. I play soccer out back with my boys a few nights a week as weather permits before dinner.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

There is a lot that can be done together. Sit on the couch with her fett on your lap while you read. Little things that indicate physical closeness.

 

Have your wife take up karate with your son as it is a family activity and you alluded she needs (or should have) physical activity.

 

And no, most women do not sleep with their kids. Many do and many have the proverbial family bed, or take their kids to their beds as they are falling asleep. Don't necessarily agree or disagree with it.

 

Drpepper43, you still have not answered about the MC and whether he/she is helping as she/he certainly hasn't addressed a single thing I pointed out above or challenged your wife to confront or answer those questions.

 

i.e.

 

 

1. Why can't you find 30 minutes a day?
   
2. Why don't you sleep with your husband?
   
3. Is there an intimacy issue?
   
4. Do you afford time to your marriage?
   
5. Where does your marriage rank in priorities?
   
6. What do you resent about your husband's activities?
   
7. Are you happy with yourself?
   

Just some issues.

[angie2443]

 

That being said, I have lots of faults in this marriage. I think I have been too passive. My wife is a very driven woman (I mean that in a good way) and she assumes the lead very often. We joke about it in fact - we basically got sent home from dance lessons because she would not let me lead! I would often defer to her and my personality style is to avoid conflict, so it basically led to a situation where most of my needs get swept aside in favor of hers. And I don't mean that backhandedly... over the last year, I have stood my ground and pointed out how I did not like our dynamic and it has caused arguments. I have started pointing out how she should not sleep with older boys, how I should be more important than her work, how she should not stay out till midnight or later without at least a phone call if she tells me she'll be home at 10pm, etc. With mixed results.

.

 

Wow! Some of this sounds like my early years of marriage. I was the passive one. My husband was more aggressive. This set up an unhealthy dynamic in our relationship in which my husband always had his way. When I finally grew a back bone, we hit a very rocky point in our marriage.

 

I'm happy to see you excepting responsibility for bieng passive. By owning this, you can change it. If not for your marriage, then for future relationships. I think you can see that bieng passive and letting the other partner lead all the time, does nothing for the relationship. If your wife is like my husband was, she may put up a fight if you start demanding more and become more assertive. For my husband and I, we finally overcame the rocky point in our marriage. For us, the trick to making it was, wanting to make it work more than anything. This is why, I think you need to first make the decision to stay in the marriage or not. Be very honest with yourself and think exactly of what you can and can't live with. If you want to stay in the marriage, find a counselor trained in MC. Not all counselors are. Then, tell your wife what you can and can't live with in your marriage. Be very, very specific. If you say you need more time with her, she may think an hour a week is fine while you want 10 (actually, happy couples spend around 15 hours each week with each other). If you decide to end the marriage, let your wife know why. This gives her information she needs to grow and lets you end the relationship completely before moving on.

 

By the way, I'm sorry I missunderstood your other post.